Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

[khadgar567]

we dont look that past whole cale kalifula fight basicly goku tracing his steps to learn how he get ultra instinct transformation in previous fight. so if he wanted he can beat both girls 5 minutes flat and eliminated them with no trouble. only reason he spar with them is to confirm how he transform ultra instinct by slightly reenacting his fight with jiren.

[Lord Raziere]

DBZ has always been about a balance of things: without skill, your like Freeza or Broly and end up hulking out and not really being effective with your strength, skill without power you basically end up like Yamcha or Krillin or Guldo who can do a neat trick like a ki blast that can be controlled in its direction or a ki saw blade that cuts through things really well that other ki blasts can't or stopping time but once someone figures out a way around that trick your boned.

the entire point is that the most successful fighters we see are a combination of power and skill in healthy measures. Goku has a lot of power, but also a few good tricks in Solar Flare, Instant Transmission, and most recently his ki mines, and also the Spirit Bomb which isn't his own raw power, its the raw power of a bunch of other people willing to donate to it so it requires trust.

it pretty much requires skill to suppress your power at all so that your not some thug blowing up the world at the drop of a hat.

I guess we should take a look at Kid Buu? like he was basically feral, yet he could copy Kai's teleportation in one look. between a near unpredictable fighting style, attacks as diverse as stretchy arms, wrapping his arm his opponent to shock them with electricity, turning them into candy, attacking with kicks from the ground, he had a wide variety of creative ways to kill someone with that takes some form of skill to execute than just simply punching them or blowing them up. yet while powerful, he was less powerful than Gohan Buu. so technically they already defeated the most powerhouse foe in Gohan Buu in that arc then had to face the relatively skill-relying Kid Buu.

[Rater202]

So... The Theme song introduced in this super long arc is Limit Break X Survivor.

Two of Goku's recruits have literally limitless power and have contributed more in this arc then they did in that in all previous arcs from their introduction onward.

Gohan trains and pushes past the blocks he's developed, becoming stronger than ever, getting back his Potential Unlocked form, and vowing to push even further beyond it.

Frieza has mastered the transformation he obtained when he trained to reach his potential, removing its limitations.

In the tournament proper, even weaklings give it their all and meaningfully contribute when before their lack of power would have limited them from doing so.

Two of the enemies, one old(Hit) and one new(Chicken Dude) are technically limitless due to possessing abilities to automatically grow more skilled(Hit) or Powerful(Chicken) automatically as they fight.

Master Roshi makes a speech about how he's learned from his students that you can keep surpassing your limits and that it's too early to determine the true limit of even an old geazer like him right beore pushing past all of his current limits to take out an enemy who was himself without limit.

Goku and Vegeta both obtained powerful new forms and both forms were described as being obtained by breaking the innermost shells on their power/potential, Goku to survive a situation he couldn't have otherwise and Vegeta out of a combination of selflessness and stubborness.

The lack of limits, or the act of shattering one's limits, seems to be a recurring theme this arc.

Considering the comparisons between Jiren and Saitama(Who is literally without limit...)

[Lemmy]

DBZ has always been about a balance of things: without skill, your like Freeza or Broly and end up hulking out and not really being effective with your strength

If by "not very effective" you mean "they beat everyone up until they are defeated by raw power", I guess you're right. In DBZ, skill is useful, but in the end it comes to who has the bigger numbers... Save for very few occasions. Still, like I said, there's quite an overlap between power and skill in DBZ. Martial arts make you more powerful, and power makes you a better martial artists... Partially explained by ki control and stuff like that (Remember how Goku beat Recoom? A single, seemingly extremely simple attack... Whose real power is only recognized by Vegeta).

Huh... I guess that kinda explains the "UI makes you stronger".

I guess we should take a look at Kid Buu? like he was basically feral, yet he could copy Kai's teleportation in one look. between a near unpredictable fighting style, attacks as diverse as stretchy arms, wrapping his arm his opponent to shock them with electricity, turning them into candy, attacking with kicks from the ground, he had a wide variety of creative ways to kill someone with that takes some form of skill to execute than just simply punching them or blowing them up. yet while powerful, he was less powerful than Gohan Buu. so technically they already defeated the most powerhouse foe in Gohan Buu in that arc then had to face the relatively skill-relying Kid Buu.

That's true Kid Buu was kinda of defeated by skill. In fact, I think he's the only enemy that is actually killed by the Genki Dama (Well... Him and that one brick in Kaio's planet).

OTOH, the only reason they managed to defeat Buu was because they got to strip him of his raw power. All of Buu's tricky tactics and powers were undone by a giant ball of energy in the end.

[Lord Raziere]

OTOH, the only reason they managed to defeat Buu was because they got to strip him of his power.

Which is a smart, skillful thing to do, weakening your enemy. Why does that not count?

I'm curious, so I'll ask to everyone: what is the standard of which you would consider a true victory by skill alone? What would it look like? Does it truly exist? And is it possible that people are not giving the skillful moments their due because the forceful moments are more flashy? Why or why not?

I'm legit curious about this, about what people are looking for in a "non-pure force" way of defeating a villain.

[Anteros]

Power level has always represented capability in battle. It's not just raw power despite what the name says. Raising your raw strength does raise your power level, but so does becoming more skillful.

I think Toriyama does want to tell stories about our heroes overcoming power level differences and winning despite being weaker. He's just not great at it, and keeps having them overcome the differences by actually becoming more powerful...which kinda undermines the whole point.

[Lemmy]

Which is a smart, skillful thing to do, weakening your enemy. Why does that not count?

It counts... But remains true to the "in the end, it's raw power that matters". Even a character as tricky and full of overpowered abilities as Buu was defeated by GIANT BALL OF ENERGY!
Rarely was any opponent defeated by exploiting an weakness or by a sneak attack or even teamwork... At best, those things only work to keep the enemy at bay until someone (usually Goku) arrives and/or gets a boost in raw power.

I'm curious, so I'll ask to everyone: what is the standard of which you would consider a true victory by skill alone? What would it look like? Does it truly exist? And is it possible that people are not giving the skillful moments their due because the forceful moments are more flashy? Why or why not?

I'm legit curious about this, about what people are looking for in a "non-pure force" way of defeating a villain.

A certain amount of power is required no matter how tactical a fighter is... Kienzan is overpowered, but I probably wouldn't have worked on Freeza if Krillin still had a PL of 1400. But that doesn't change the fact that tactics count for very little in DBZ. Most of the time, they're relegated to delaying the enemy until the hero with bigger numbers than the baddie shows up (or transforms).

Vegeta is almost definitely a better Fighter than #18... And still got his ass kicked. Krillin, Piccollo, Tien and Yamcha were probably better fighters than Nappa... And still got their asses kicked.

But, AGAIN, there's a big overlap between power and skill in DBZ.

[Anteros]

We do have things like Roshi surviving in the tournament for a while with his PL of 250. Or the Mafuba. There are a few instances of skill trumping power. They are just few and far between.

[Lemmy]

Power level has always represented capability in battle. It's not just raw power despite what the name says. Raising your raw strength does raise your power level, but so does becoming more skillful.

That's pretty much what I meant by "there's an overlap between power and skill in DBZ"

I think Toriyama does want to tell stories about our heroes overcoming power level differences and winning despite being weaker. He's just not great at it, and keeps having them overcome the differences by actually becoming more powerful...which kinda undermines the whole point.

That's a great way of phrasing it. The Vegeta fight was won mostly by tactics... But other than that... It's just the hero becoming more powerful and shooting bigger energy beams. Tactics were rarely a significant factor in any major battles.

I don't mean that as an insult to DBZ. I love the show and personally find most of its battles quite exciting. The fighting "choreography" was always pretty fun. It's just that a tactical battles aren't the forte (or even a main goal) of he series.

[Lemmy]

We do have things like Roshi surviving in the tournament for a while with his PL of 250. Or the Mafuba. There are a few instances of skill trumping power. They are just few and far between.

Well... I doubt his power is still at 250.

DBS is dumb. It's a fun show (mostly) and it's animation is actually decent now, but it's a dumb, dumb show and completely inconsistent with what was established in DB and DBZ. The power levels characters display in DBZ make absolutely no sense. The writers simply don't care about consistency... Which I think detracts a lot from the show, but doesn't stop it from being fun... (but does stop it from being a great show, IMO).

[Anteros]

So I've seen people referring to Vegeta's new form as Royal Blue. I like it, as long as it stays as a Vegeta specific transformation.

[Starwulf]

So I've seen people referring to Vegeta's new form as Royal Blue. I like it, as long as it stays as a Vegeta specific transformation.

Ooooh, I like that name as well, and it definitely better stay a Vegeta only transformation. Goku has UI, he needs to stick with that the little pank.

[Lord Raziere]

So I've seen people referring to Vegeta's new form as Royal Blue. I like it, as long as it stays as a Vegeta specific transformation.

I'm still calling it Blue 2. the fanciness of naming a form like Super Saiyan Rose honestly seems like a Zamasu specific ego thing to me, no point in applying it to Vegeta.

[Anteros]

I'm still calling it Blue 2. the fanciness of naming a form like Super Saiyan Rose honestly seems like a Zamasu specific ego thing to me, no point in applying it to Vegeta.

Vegeta doesn't have to call it that in the show for the fandom to adopt it. Even if he did name it, I can't see him naming it something so corny.

That said, I'm pretty sure Vegeta is about a billion times more egotistical than Zamasu.

[Lord Raziere]

Vegeta doesn't have to call it that in the show for the fandom to adopt it. Even if he did name it, I can't see him naming it something so corny.

That said, I'm pretty sure Vegeta is about a billion times more egotistical than Zamasu.

I'm pretty sure Cell and Zamasu both out-egotistical'd/narcissised Vegeta when Cell started making little Cell Jrs to attack people with and Zamas hugged and fused with himself after making a magical crack in the universe the produced Goku Black clones of himself.

like, can you honestly see Vegeta being egotistical enough to pull off either of those things? He'd criticize himself for not being stronger than Kakarot and probably get into a karkatian shouting match with himself over various stupid things, probably culminating in declaring that "there can only be one". as TFS put it: "Is that me stronger than me? I'LL ****ING KILL ME!"

[Anteros]

I'm pretty sure Cell and Zamasu both out-egotistical'd/narcissised Vegeta when Cell started making little Cell Jrs to attack people with and Zamas hugged and fused with himself after making a magical crack in the universe the produced Goku Black clones of himself.

like, can you honestly see Vegeta being egotistical enough to pull off either of those things? He'd criticize himself for not being stronger than Kakarot and probably get into a karkatian shouting match with himself over various stupid things, probably culminating in declaring that "there can only be one". as TFS put it: "Is that me stronger than me? I'LL ****ING KILL ME!"

I'd go the other way and say that Vegeta is too egotistical to do either of those things. He would view clones as useless because they aren't the true thing, and he'd view fusing with himself as admitting that he couldn't accomplish his goals alone. He'd be a lot more likely to set out to prove that he's better than his alternate universe duplicate than he would be to work with them.

[Lord Raziere]

I'd go the other way and say that Vegeta is too egotistical to do either of those things. He would view clones as useless because they aren't the true thing, and he'd view fusing with himself as admitting that he couldn't accomplish his goals alone. He'd be a lot more likely to set out to prove that he's better than his alternate universe duplicate than he would be to work with them.

Except he already approves of Future Trunks (a son who is only half him) and has at times worked together and fused with Goku.

[Douglas]

Vegeta is willing to put his pride aside when he's really certain that it's necessary for survival. I'm not sure about when it's necessary merely for victory, there haven't been many occasions where victory was at stake but survival wasn't.

[Rater202]

Vegeta is currently fighting alongside Goku of his own free will with no sign of reluctance.

Old Vegeta might be too arrogant to fuse with himself, but this is Vegeta after all of the character development.

Universe 7 doesn't need to win, they outnumber universe 11 and merely need to survive. But Vegeta needs to win, not for himself, but to bring back Cabba and the universe 6 saiyans.

[Xihirli]

I thought the Vegeta/Goku "team-up" looked a whole lot like their training scene with Whis, when they were both whaling on at him but clearly not working together.
That's what it reminded me of, at least.

[Lemmy]

Is it me or was the animation in the last episode... Kinda bad?

[khadgar567]

Is it me or was the animation in the last episode... Kinda bad?

nah we are hitting the arcs ending as two more battles remain in the horizon and no desperate villain to act as reason for final battle that returns the stasus que to balance. so people has no desire to discus what transformation vegeta get or spit second glow in his hair was super saiyan blue 2 sneak peak. and thanks to me throwing two new names to ultra instinct pile. we kinda have no clue what gonna happen after this arc ends

[Dragonus45]

Ya know, I'm trying to figure out if I would have been upset, or really, really pleased with Toriyama if he had allowed

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Jiren to be ringed out by Goku when he used the Hexa Destructo Disc to cut the rock off and then used Instant Transmission to go above him and kick him fully out of the ring. I mean, I could see myself going either way with it. Angry because I'd have felt robbed from what is supposed to be an epic fight that I'm hoping involves Goku going UI again, but completely this time, defense AND offense. Pleased because it would be a complete "Ha ha, fooled you all" + "See, power doesn't always matter, sometimes it's brains" moment, and we really don't get those all that often in Dragon Ball. Plus it would have been so hilarious to see U11's GoD and Supreme Kai's faces when Jiren showed up next to them.

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If it goku had just bull tackled him to fall down with him I would have been perfectly ok with it myself.

[Anteros]

Is it me or was the animation in the last episode... Kinda bad?

It's not just you, but it's pretty normal for Super. For some reason they've decided to have sub-par animation most of the time and spend their budget on a few episodes rather than being consistent throughout.

[Anteros]

Speaking of Vegeta, does anyone else think Vegeta's transformation looks really bad? Why would they give him oversized anime girl eyes? Who thought that was a good look?

Also, apparently Super is getting replaced with another anime in April. Supposedly not an april fools joke.


https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/954086203044675584

[Lemmy]

Speaking of Vegeta, does anyone else think Vegeta's transformation looks really bad? Why would they give him oversized anime girl eyes? Who thought that was a good look?

Also, apparently Super is getting replaced with another anime in April. Supposedly not an april fools joke.


https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/954086203044675584

Meh... Super Saiyan Blue looks terrible anyway. God and Rosé aren't nearly as bad, but aren't cool-looking better either...UI is the first DBS transformation that I actually like.

Super Saiyan 2 is still the coolest! And I really wish they'd return to the golden aura theme.

[chainer1216]

Vegetas new transformation seema more like the ssgss version of the "Super Vegeta" transformation he used against perfect Cell.

The bulkier body, the spikey solid looking hair. The designs are very similar.

[Lord Raziere]

I just realized the real reason why Toriyama never bothered giving Vegeta Super Saiyan 3:
he didn't want to go to the extra effort of drawing Vegeta with longer hair, because he is lazy and always wants to draw Vegeta with the same hair.

thats why all his forms are just Vegeta with different hair colors and such, so Toriyama doesn't have to change Vegeta's design all that much, since he is know to be lazy with inking and such.

[Fri]

It's not just you, but it's pretty normal for Super. For some reason they've decided to have sub-par animation most of the time and spend their budget on a few episodes rather than being consistent throughout.

It's actually common practice in anime. Not all episodes are worked by the same animation studio. To save budget, usually they have important key episodes like climatic battle, end and start of seasons, etc, worked by expensive, high quality animation studios, and the rest are off sourced to cheap animation companies overseas, like in South Korea or Indonesia. I'm have art degree, and I remember some of my friends interned in one of those animation farms in college. Obviously, not all anime does that. I think it's mostly longer ones.

[Anteros]

It's actually common practice in anime. Not all episodes are worked by the same animation studio. To save budget, usually they have important key episodes like climatic battle, end and start of seasons, etc, worked by expensive, high quality animation studios, and the rest are off sourced to cheap animation companies overseas, like in South Korea or Indonesia. I'm have art degree, and I remember some of my friends interned in one of those animation farms in college. Obviously, not all anime does that. I think it's mostly longer ones.

Interesting. I admit I don't watch a lot of anime, but I've never noticed a dropoff as noticeable as Super's between episodes.

So no one wants to talk about the fact that Super is ending, or at least going on Hiatus in March?