Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

[Starwulf]

The thing about previous arcs in Z is even if Goku saved everything, it at least gave everyone else a moment to actually do something. Now it's all Goku in a way Z never was.

I don't get that vibe at all. Yeah, Goku is taking on the strongest guy in the tournament(And for now, it looks like it's not even him alone, it's him and Vegeta, though it remains to be seen if it'll stay that way), but without the others, there is no way he'd have enough stamina left over after taking out all the other guys his team took out, to take on Jiren and actually win. And that's assuming that the people his teammates took out wouldn't all band together to stop Goku. He may be powerful, but so where quite a few of the guys his teammates took out, I don't think he could take on ALL of those and win, at some point he would slip up and get knocked off.

They all did their part, and they all got their moment to shine in this tournament, some more then others, but hell even Roshi got a chance to be bad-ass. 3 people knocked off, including one that Goku might not have been able to beat due to the magic aspect of it, something Roshi has experience in dealing with, but Goku doesn't.

I'd argue that Z gave less chance for people to shine, with the exception of Gohan, and on a lesser level(and strangely enough) Mr. Satan. Besides those two, no-one else took out a major villain, or even helped in a significant manner except to distract or make Goku angry enough to achieve Super Saiyan. And Satan is debatable, maybe Goku wouldn't have beaten Kid Buu without the Spirit Bomb, maybe he would have, or maybe he would have eventually convinced people to give him their power without Satan.

Nappa: Goku
Vegeta: Goku(with Gohan fighting against him in Great Ape form, and Yajirobe slicing off Vegeta's tail)
Recoome and Burner: Goku
Dodoria/Zarbon: Vegeta
Time stop dude: Krillin and Gohan
Frieza: Goku, with Piccolo and Krillin stalling for the SPirit BOmb which did nothing but piss Frieza off, causing him to kill Krillin, sparking Super Saiyan
Frieza Redux and King Cold(but this doesn't matter, in the future he came from Goku took him out himself, he only didn't INstant Tranmission this time because he sense Frieza die): Trunks
Androids 16-18: Cell
Cell: Gohan, with help from Goku
Buu: Goku

On the other hand, in this tournament alone we've had the entire cast shine, taking out various people, and none of them were pyrhhic victories iirc, they all actually took out people that stayed out(Looking at you Buu and Vegeta from Z). Trunks more or less beat whats-his-name(having a brain-fart), what happened afterwards could ONLY be solved via the Omni-King.

[The Troubadour]

And Satan is debatable, maybe Goku wouldn't have beaten Kid Buu without the Spirit Bomb, maybe he would have, or maybe he would have eventually convinced people to give him their power without Satan.

...Those are HIGHLY doubtful.

[khadgar567]

you know last episode gives good side by side picture of ultra instinct saiyan blue vegita and kaio-ken ultra instinct goku and their auras are distinctly different enough that you can prove vegita did indeed get ultra instinct and combined with blue which goku currently can not do. looks like mr. arrogance finally did beat goku on some think instead of trying to reach him. Kudos to toriyama for finally separating idiot duo by solid way. So post arc probably focus on goku and vegita archiving same power levels while kale and califula learning their part of the power up.

[Jan Mattys]

I'm still waiting for Gohan to become the incredible fighter that was promised.

Sorry, but "taking out Dyspo in a 2 vs 1 fight with a sacrifice move" doesn't exactly sound exciting or awesome to me :(

I guess I'll die before Gohan becomes relevant again. And that's quite sad, because while not considering myself a Gohan fanboy, his fight vs Cell and his arrival in mystic form in front of Buu were the highlights of Z to me.

I would have been be less angry if the last three left in the tournament had been Goku, Vegeta and Gohan, or Goku, Frieza and Gohan.
Seeing Gohan not only getting replaced by Frieza (he's the interesting bad guy so I guess that's a pass), but by ANDROID 17 of all people is just sad.

[Delicious Taffy]

ultra instinct saiyan blue vegita and kaio-ken ultra instinct goku

One of those is unconfirmed, and the other one is something you made up out of nowhere. From the look of it, Vegeta just discovered another level of Blue, without Ultra Instinct. He even said beforehand, "Kakarot can have his Ultra Instinct. I'll get stronger my own way!" or something very similar. Goku, on the other hand, is very obviously using his Kaio-Ken Blue technique, with no Ultra Instinct to be seen.

I guess I'll die before Gohan becomes relevant again.

So, does it just not matter that Gohan is the team captain, had several eliminations, and consistently put up a good fight in every match? When does he start to become "relevant" to you people? When is it good enough? Every time Gohan is less than the absolute MVP of the universe, this same complaint comes up, and it's tiresome.

Gohan being the center of attention has only ever worked out what, once? That was against Cell, like 400 millennia ago. All he did against Buu was sit still and then mess around until he got absorbed. Since Super started, Gohan has been raising a kid, looking for a high-class job, and otherwise being a family man. He's also managed to help fend off Freeza's army, take down that alien that Jaco let loose, revisit his old superhero schtick (Videl seemed particularly fond of that one), re-reach and then surpass the heights of power he'd had before, and take out Lavender while blind. And this is all before the Tournament.

So please, explain how Gohan, despite being better-rounded and a more complete character than ever, isn't "relevant".

[khadgar567]

One of those is unconfirmed, and the other one is something you made up out of nowhere. From the look of it, Vegeta just discovered another level of Blue, without Ultra Instinct. He even said beforehand, "Kakarot can have his Ultra Instinct. I'll get stronger my own way!" or something very similar. Goku, on the other hand, is very obviously using his Kaio-Ken Blue technique, with no Ultra Instinct to be seen.

as far as i know its confirmed in anime by great angel just needs to be said out loud to make you guys understand. just check whis and his responds and you see the same pattern. its just needs few episodes to officially confirmed as only toppo remains between ultra instinct vegita and arcs finale.

[Jan Mattys]

So, does it just not matter that Gohan is the team captain, had several eliminations, and consistently put up a good fight in every match? When does he start to become "relevant" to you people? When is it good enough? Every time Gohan is less than the absolute MVP of the universe, this same complaint comes up, and it's tiresome.

Gohan being the center of attention has only ever worked out what, once? That was against Cell, like 400 millennia ago. All he did against Buu was sit still and then mess around until he got absorbed. Since Super started, Gohan has been raising a kid, looking for a high-class job, and otherwise being a family man. He's also managed to help fend off Freeza's army, take down that alien that Jaco let loose, revisit his old superhero schtick (Videl seemed particularly fond of that one), re-reach and then surpass the heights of power he'd had before, and take out Lavender while blind. And this is all before the Tournament.

So please, explain how Gohan, despite being better-rounded and a more complete character than ever, isn't "relevant".

I get what you're saying.
I'd say "it's enough when Gohan leaves some lasting impact when it really matters, and is able to overcome a major adversary".
So far only Cell qualifies, and the fact that it was 400 millennia ago is exactly my point. If Gohan had knocked Hit out it would have been good. If he had proven himself against Toppo, too. If he had gone against Frieza turned traitor, that's fine as well, cementing his role as the wise one. I know that he's not the protagonist, so the Cell arc will remain a pretty unique thing. But still, seriously, do you really consider(ed) Dyspo anything short of meh?

My perception is that he's the strongest of the not-really-relevant ones, not the weakest of the relevant ones.

[Mikeavelli]

But still, seriously, do you really consider(ed) Dyspo anything short of meh?

My perception is that he's the strongest of the not-really-relevant ones, not the weakest of the relevant ones.

Yup, every single fight he has been in has shown him to not even be in the same league as the other top-tier fighters.

- Dyspo vs. Hit: Dyspo wins for a bit until Hit figures out his 1-dimensional fighting style and almost rings Dyspo out.
- Dyspo vs. Goku: LOL, Goku is just faster than the fastest cat in the multiverse.
- Dyspo vs. Jelly Belly: Dyspo gets tricked into an easy trap, and papa Jiren needs to save him.
- Dyspo vs. Freeza: Freeza was just toying with him the entire time. I'm not convinced Golden Freeza was legitimately on the ropes, even when Dyspo went into his super-speed state.

[Anteros]

It looks like Super is ending. It's not just a hiatus, and it's not just to let the manga catch up. This is the end. Pretty disappointing since the best parts of the entire series were hints that it was leading up to something bigger.

My perception is that he's the strongest of the not-really-relevant ones, not the weakest of the relevant ones.

Pretty sure that's Vegeta's title.

[Devonix]

I get what you're saying.
I'd say "it's enough when Gohan leaves some lasting impact when it really matters, and is able to overcome a major adversary".
So far only Cell qualifies, and the fact that it was 400 millennia ago is exactly my point. If Gohan had knocked Hit out it would have been good. If he had proven himself against Toppo, too. If he had gone against Frieza turned traitor, that's fine as well, cementing his role as the wise one. I know that he's not the protagonist, so the Cell arc will remain a pretty unique thing. But still, seriously, do you really consider(ed) Dyspo anything short of meh?

My perception is that he's the strongest of the not-really-relevant ones, not the weakest of the relevant ones.

I don't really see the need for Gohan to even actually win any fights to be relevant. To me Super did one very important thing. It turned 3 characters that were good, into 3 characters that are amazing. The stuff this show did for Gohan, Vegeta, and Piccolo is nothing short of amazing. It made them fully fleshed out, well rounded characters in a way superior that they were in DBZ. Gohan and Piccolo's relationship. Vegeta and his family. That is the stuff I'm taking away from this show. Screw the fighting, the show was worth it for that stuff alone.

[Douglas]

Finally caught up to the latest episode. Seems like if not for Goku and Vegeta getting mid-fight powerups the whole tournament might as well have been Jiren vs everyone (a 79 on 1 battle), just about. It also seems a bit stupid of all the other universes to not team up against him once his power is revealed. As Beerus says at one point, "if you take Goku out, who's going to beat Jiren?" If the fighters, or their gods, were smart the immediate aftermath of the Spirit Bomb should have been fighters all over the arena agreeing to temporary truce to team up against Jiren because there was no way any of them were going to beat him alone.

It's common basic tactics in free-for-all games of all kinds, if one player/fighter shows a strong advantage everyone else gangs up on him.

[Anteros]

Well, I doubt ganging up on him would really have made a difference anyway. Honestly, the universe with the small and invisible fighters should have just went into hiding and tried to win by attrition.


I know we don't really have time for it, but I really wish the series would end with Goku and Vegeta fighting it out one last time.

[Xihirli]

U11 was in or near last place for over half the tournament.
It would’ve been nice to take out Jiren, but if the clock had ticked out in the middle of the fight U7 would have won.

So all the universes attacked THEM.
Except Hit.
Hit MVP.

[Starwulf]

Spoiler

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Calling it now, in some way, shape or form, both Vegeta and Goku are going to go out taking out Jiren and Toppo, and Frieza's going to win the tournament because no-one realizes that he wasn't actually thrown out of the ring. Maybe....with the rumors going around saying Super is ending it's run in March, I don't see how they could leave it on such a cliffhanger as Frieza getting the wish from the Super Dragonballs, unless they play it off as him wishing for ultimate power over even Zeno-sama and either the dragon saying "I can't do that", or the Zeno's killing him before the wish can be granted. Sooo...maybe, maybe not I guess, but it's definitely a possibility.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: Episode 125

Show

Now that Gohan has shown how relevant he truly is, for better or worse, lets to whatever this episode is about. Something about Toppo tapping into the grape power and beating people up with his fruity deliciousness? Yeah, Toppo is abandoning all justice. Guess we know where a God of Destruction's morality lies.

Hi stock Jiren/Goku/Second fiddle Saiyan fight animation. bye stock animation.

Toppo attacks 17....forces 17 tot he edge and......Freeza interfering in....3....2.....1.......

and yup, freeza is here to shoot beam at Toppo's back and disrupt his concentration with his cruel agonies. yeah.....

Bu of course, Toppo doesn't fall that easily, even if he is singed and battered.

Uh oh, freeza, you idiot your taunting him. he is saying worthless. every one take cover.

Yup.....Toppo has become a God of Destruction???

Freeza! When did you become an idiot!? Beerus is still far more powerful than you! Do you believe your hype that mu- of course he does.

.......THERE ARE NO WORDS. TOPPO IS DESTROYING THE ENTIRE ARENA AND EVERYTHING AROUND THEM. WHAT IN THE WORLD???

ok, apparently GoD's can surround them with the energy of destruction to destroy anything that comes at them. more Hax I see.

also, freeza hasn't shown up on the stands, so he isn't out and Toppo isn't disqualified, so Freeza? still in.

and yup, even after Toppo tries to ring him out again while Freeza is in his fourth form, Freeza is still in the ring. Freeza has survived so many attempts to ring him out, its practically guaranteed he will get the wish, they just had two opportunities to ring him out as karmic retribution for what hes done during the tournament, so given that neither worked, its pretty safe to say that Freeza's getting his victory.

Tournament Status:
U7: 4/10
U11: 2/10
U3: Erased.
U4: Erased
U2: Erased.
U6: Erased.
U10: Erased.
U9: Erased.
Total: 6 fighters remaining.

Preview: So, Vegeta's taking a shot at Toppo now? hm. that doesn't reveal much either way. Freeza is still at the bottom of that ravine after all, so 17 might get eliminated, then Vegeta faces and defeat Toppo? maybe, maybe. this preview is a good one and doesn't reveal the actual fate of 17 or Freeza.

[zimmerwald1915]

Spoiler: 125

Show

If the stage is destroyed, how is time being kept? How will everyone know when the tournament ends? Grand Priest fiat? Probably Grand Priest fiat.

[Xihirli]

Spoiler: 125

Show

It's still mostly there. The pillar thing still works.

[leafman]

Spoiler: 125

Show

I know he won't be, because it would have happened already, but I feel like Toppo should be disqualified. GoD's weren't allowed to compete, so becoming one should be an automatic DQ.

With 5 minutes left in the tourney I don't see a logical path to victory for U7. Goku and Vegeta together weren't pushing Jiren to go all out. Now Toppo has gone god-mode, Frieza is knocked out and 17 can't do much to stall that long. I know the preview show Vegeta going after Toppo, but without another power-up I don't see Toppo or Jiren being overcome. All either of those two need to do is get serious for 30 seconds and U7 loses. The writers have really written themselves into a corner and I think the only way out is Goku gaining UI again or some other power-up.

[Rater202]

Spoiler: 125

Show

I know he won't be, because it would have happened already, but I feel like Toppo should be disqualified. GoD's weren't allowed to compete, so becoming one should be an automatic DQ.

With 5 minutes left in the tourney I don't see a logical path to victory for U7. Goku and Vegeta together weren't pushing Jiren to go all out. Now Toppo has gone god-mode, Frieza is knocked out and 17 can't do much to stall that long. I know the preview show Vegeta going after Toppo, but without another power-up I don't see Toppo or Jiren being overcome. All either of those two need to do is get serious for 30 seconds and U7 loses. The writers have really written themselves into a corner and I think the only way out is Goku gaining UI again or some other power-up.

Spoiler

Show

Goku and Vegeta become Deities when they use Blue.

Going by Heroes, the same applies toFrieza's Golden Form, since it's used as the "God Class" for the
Freiza race avatars(Notably, the Sayain Avatars get Super Saiyan God)

you can't disqualify Toppo for transforming into a GoD when other mortals have been transforming into Deities willy nilly all Tourny.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: 125

Show

I know he won't be, because it would have happened already, but I feel like Toppo should be disqualified. GoD's weren't allowed to compete, so becoming one should be an automatic DQ.

With 5 minutes left in the tourney I don't see a logical path to victory for U7. Goku and Vegeta together weren't pushing Jiren to go all out. Now Toppo has gone god-mode, Frieza is knocked out and 17 can't do much to stall that long. I know the preview show Vegeta going after Toppo, but without another power-up I don't see Toppo or Jiren being overcome. All either of those two need to do is get serious for 30 seconds and U7 loses. The writers have really written themselves into a corner and I think the only way out is Goku gaining UI again or some other power-up.

Spoiler: 125

Show

What are you talking about?

This is shonen anime writing and Dragon Ball writing at its most classic. the entire point of the genre is that there is hidden potential deep down inside the protagonist only unlocked in a die or fly situation.
that on some level this power is simply instinctual like a baby bird being thrown out of its nest so the baby bird has to learn to fly before they die falling, because this is all based on an actual species of bird that does that. Getting to situations like this is the entire goal of the genre.

As for antagonists getting serious, pretty sure they already are. Given that there is only five episodes left before they break, they are not screwing around at all. its just that we're not focusing on the Jiren fight,
and Toppo is still new to his power.

[Jayngfet]

Anyone who says they don't see how U7 can win doesn't understand how U7 has literally either been in or tied for the lead this entire arc right up to this moment. The way to win isn't "beat up everybody", it's "have more people in the ring at time out".

Even if Toppo beats both of his opponents with ease that will only tie the two teams, not secure a victory. Jiren and Toppo ringing out one more person wouldn't secure that victory. The fact is this arc hasn't had a lot of tension because weather or not an individual character wins a specific fight kind of became irrelevant because U7 can always afford to lose that one numerically.

My money is on Vegeta getting a ring out(because of course it won't be Goku) and on 17 eating a Destruction Blast and dying to ring out Toppo.

[zimmerwald1915]

and on 17 eating a Destruction Blast and dying to ring outdisqualify Toppo.

Y'know, I could see this.

[Anteros]

Y'know, I could see this.

Honestly, why not? You know your friends will just wish you back if you die. Which is a lot better than having your universe erased. It's win/win.

I feel like beating Toppo will be Vegeta's big moment in Super though. He'll KO himself to take Toppo down which will leave Jiren vs Goku for the finale.

[HolyDraconus]

Honestly, why not? You know your friends will just wish you back if you die. Which is a lot better than having your universe erased. It's win/win.

I feel like beating Toppo will be Vegeta's big moment in Super though. He'll KO himself to take Toppo down which will leave Jiren vs Goku for the finale.

You're not dead when Hakai'd tho. You are just gone. Toppo can easily just spam that for the win and will never be disqualified.

[leafman]

Spoiler

Show

Goku and Vegeta become Deities when they use Blue.

Going by Heroes, the same applies toFrieza's Golden Form, since it's used as the "God Class" for the
Freiza race avatars(Notably, the Sayain Avatars get Super Saiyan God)

you can't disqualify Toppo for transforming into a GoD when other mortals have been transforming into Deities willy nilly all Tourny.

Spoiler

Show

Being god tier and being a God of Destruction are two different things though. Gods of Destruction were not allowed to fight, if they were there would be no reason for them to be sitting on the bench. Goku, Vegeta and Frieza are not deities, just strong fighters. Toppo on the other hand made a choice to enter Godhood and gain the Hakai powers. I don't Super Saiyan God is anything meaningful beyond another transformation. It doesn't grant them anything besides another multiplier.

Spoiler: 125

Show

What are you talking about?

This is shonen anime writing and Dragon Ball writing at its most classic. the entire point of the genre is that there is hidden potential deep down inside the protagonist only unlocked in a die or fly situation.
that on some level this power is simply instinctual like a baby bird being thrown out of its nest so the baby bird has to learn to fly before they die falling, because this is all based on an actual species of bird that does that. Getting to situations like this is the entire goal of the genre.

As for antagonists getting serious, pretty sure they already are. Given that there is only five episodes left before they break, they are not screwing around at all. its just that we're not focusing on the Jiren fight,
and Toppo is still new to his power.

Spoiler

Show

I'm talking about victory requiring another ass-pull power up, of which U7's top fighters have already had 2 in this fight. Jiren isn't being serious. He could use that red aura again and actually ring Goku out. Not just punch him really hard and then wait for him to get back up. Toppo also seems to be satisfied with hitting his opponents hard and not ringing them out, like beating up Frieza and just tossing him aside.

If Toppo and Jiren go all out right now and start ringing people out, it would be them and a KO'd Frieza and maybe Goku left. Goku isn't going to be able to take both of them without UI mastery. I doubt Goku can take Jiren alone without the offensive half of UI. So cue ass-pull: Goku gains both halves of UI on the verge of defeat to beat Jiren.

[Rater202]

Spoiler

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Being god tier and being a God of Destruction are two different things though. Gods of Destruction were not allowed to fight, if they were there would be no reason for them to be sitting on the bench. Goku, Vegeta and Frieza are not deities, just strong fighters. Toppo on the other hand made a choice to enter Godhood and gain the Hakai powers. I don't Super Saiyan God is anything meaningful beyond another transformation. It doesn't grant them anything besides another multiplier.

Spoiler

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Goku and Vegeta can sense Divine Ki, which only deities can do,
and Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan grant Divine Ki to them.

If you have the Ki of a God and can sense the power of Gods, then you're a God.

...Also, were the GoDs forbidden from entering? Is it all GoDs or just the ones who actually hold the possition?

[Anteros]

We've had a bunch of non god characters remark on Goku and Vegeta's ki increases at this point, so I don't even know if that's still a thing.

[Xihirli]

The "halves" of Ultra Instinct was invented by the fans. Goku hadn't mastered UI during his Kefla fight and that's basically it.

[Mato]

Goku and Vegeta do not become deities when they enter Blue, they use godly ki and that's about it.

DBS has made it clear that there are differences. Like Rose, instead of blue, is what happens if you are a true deity and combine Ssj with godly ki. We also know Future Trunk's attendant position required a ritual that also gave him healing powers. The title of the guardian of Earth also between some powers, Kami could transverse to other world and back while Dende can sense godly ki even through neither of these traits are part of the Namekian race.

God of Destruction is also a similar title. Remember, Belmod is planning on retiring and passing his title to Toppo, there are also GoDs that don't fit the Egyptian theme and there is a wide racial verity. From the manga, GoDs have matter creation, ageless immortality, and true deity status which are likely granted along with the title. As Goku & Toppo show through, the destruction technique is probably a precursor. In the manga Goku has to expend nearly all of his energy to do it and Whis has joked about Goku beating Beerus before. Toppo on the other hand is able to manipulate it and even reuse it after small periods of rest and he is considered a candidate even through Jiren is more powerful (as toppo has claimed). Neither one is able to effortlessly use the technique like Beerus has been shown able to do, but it appears they can learn how.

[Starwulf]

Spoiler

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I'm talking about victory requiring another ass-pull power up, of which U7's top fighters have already had 2 in this fight. Jiren isn't being serious. He could use that red aura again and actually ring Goku out. Not just punch him really hard and then wait for him to get back up. Toppo also seems to be satisfied with hitting his opponents hard and not ringing them out, like beating up Frieza and just tossing him aside.

Spoiler

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Did we watch the same episode? Toppo clearly was trying to ring out Frieza, he only didn't because 17 smacked Frieza with that piece of rock and altered his trajectory. Even then it was a damn close thing, Frieza is literally on the edge about to fall out, if he get's too active while passed out, he'll roll right off the edge(on a side-note, that would be freaking hilarious, and perhaps the best way for Frieza to go out. Don't even give him the dignity of going out in a fight, let him roll right out while passed out, hehe). But yeah, Toppo definitely trying for the ring-outs. He also tried to ring out 17 before Frieza showed up and started pelting him with his little laser beams. They were engaged in that big beam struggle and 17 was right on the edge, remember?

So yeah, you can say that Jiren isn't trying, because he really isn't, he's had multiple chances and never took them, but Toppo certainly is going for the win.