Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

[Xihirli]

As a point of clarification:

I said that a fighter gets to keep existing if his or her team wins.
Like how Tien will keep existing if U7 wins.

[Mato]

*Jiren knocks Goku off the stage*
*Slides over next to Belmod* "Yeahee go team!"

You laugh now, but in about six seconds you'll wonder if co-existence is the point of this. Zeno gets his one universe, Goku gets stronger opponents, and everyone gets to stay alive.

[F.H. Zebedee]

Like how Tien will keep existing if U7 wins.

Are we sure that like, Tien actually exists in the first place? I would say he's like Nemesis/Planet X, an entity that we only know due to their influence on other bodies we can see, except that would require Tien actually influencing the plot in any meaningful way, whatsoever.

[Mikeavelli]

Are we sure that like, Tien actually exists in the first place? I would say he's like Nemesis/Planet X, an entity that we only know due to their influence on other bodies we can see, except that would require Tien actually influencing the plot in any meaningful way, whatsoever.

If Tien never existed, we would never have received Ki-Ko-**** yourself. I feel this is sufficiently meaningful, even if he didn't actually accomplish anything with it.

[Aotrs Commander]

If Tien never existed, we would never have received Ki-Ko-**** yourself. I feel this is sufficiently meaningful, even if he didn't actually accomplish anything with it.

Yes. Sometimes, all it takes is one scene!

That said, I honestly think that the TFS scene (even comedy though it was) worked a bit better than the original (edit: that is the dub) (as part of my binge, I watched 'em back-to-back). TFS'a grasp of comedic (and just plain good) dialogue aside, the abrigded version is much punchier in terms of pacing. (And pacing was DBZ's arguably biggest and most celebrated issues.) Were I to get the series on DVD, I'd probably be half-tempted towards Kai, on the basis it did as I understand, cur down on some of the more egregious bits.

Actually - because I am an UTTER peasant, I haven't watched the scene in the actual original Japanese, because of of the the things I thougth TFS did better on that scene was Tenshinhan's emphasis on the syllables - just the wordless yells in the official dub didn't carry the same force, I thought. Be interested to see if that was something that was present in the Japanese dub.

Edit: *looks* Apparently not. Point to TFS for doing something genuinely better than the source material. (Mind you, this is why they're still at it after tne years - they are actually just bloody good.)

[Rater202]

Yes. Sometimes, all it takes is one scene!

That said, I honestly think that the TFS scene (even comedy though it was) worked a bit better than the original (as part of my binge, I watched 'em back-to-back). TFS'a grasp of comedic (and just plain good) dialogue aside, the abrigded version is much punchier in terms of pacing. (And pacing was DBZ's arguably biggest and most celebrated issues.) Were I to get the series on DVD, I'd probably be half-tempted towards Kai, on the basis it did as I understand, cur down on some of the more egregious bits.

Kai remastered and recut the original footage and redubbed the dialog, especially in the dub, to be closer to the Manga and close up plotholes.(They also recolored Vegeta in his first apearance to be more consistant with his actual, canon color scheme.)

As part of this, they cut out most of the filler and the scenes you see in Anime where it focuses on a shot too long and nothing happens. This was because unlike the original run, Kai didn't have to worry about overtaking the manga. In some cases, two or three episodes were near seemlessly edited together.

[Reddish Mage]

Kai remastered and recut the original footage and redubbed the dialog, especially in the dub, to be closer to the Manga and close up plotholes

As part of this, they cut out most of the filler and the scenes you see in Anime where it focuses on a shot too long and nothing happens. In some cases, two or three episodes were near seemlessly edited together.

I have to agreed with this and strengthen just how good of a cut job they did. They reduced the number of episodes from 291 to 167!! Yes, filler episodes were taken out but a significant amount of that dead weight comes from recutting multiple episodes together seamlessly.

Watching combat on Kai feel dramatically different from the original. It flows! It feels naturally paced. Its really quite amazing.

[Aotrs Commander]

I said "half-tempted" largely because I was under the impression Kai was... Devisive? within the fanbase.

One suspects there perhaps is no true right answer, so unless I travel to one o' them paralellel universes where the perfect, paragon version (renegade in Vegeta's case) exists, I suppose it's all swings and roundabouts.

[Lemmy]

I said "half-tempted" largely because I was under the impression Kai was... Devisive? within the fanbase.

One suspects there perhaps is no true right answer, so unless I travel to one o' them paralellel universes where the perfect, paragon version (renegade in Vegeta's case) exists, I suppose it's all swings and roundabouts.

I mean... It does lack the episode of Goku and Piccolo taking driving lessons...

[Aotrs Commander]

I mean... It does lack the episode of Goku and Piccolo taking driving lessons...

That is probably the biggest mark against it, granted...! But were I inclined, I could likely track that one episode (and maybe the one with Maron) down on the interwebs.

(It's pretty idle speculation at this point, or at least for my birthday/Christmas lists, since I need to get back and have a stab at Naruto again this year, on account of getting a DVd volume about five ahead of my last one, so I really need to catch up first!)

[Rater202]

That is probably the biggest mark against it, granted...! But were I inclined, I could likely track that one episode (and maybe the one with Maron) down on the interwebs.

(It's pretty idle speculation at this point, or at least for my birthday/Christmas lists, since I need to get back and have a stab at Naruto again this year, on account of getting a DVd volume about five ahead of my last one, so I really need to catch up first!)

Assuming by Marron, you mean the blue haired girl with breasts instead of brains... That wasn't one particular episode. She was around for most of the Garlic Junior Saga... Which is not only non-canon filler, but it's dependant on not one but two of the movies, and while the only thing that really works against Garlic Junior's movie is that if it were canon then Piccolo and Krillin would have known about Gohan earliar than they did in the series, Icarus/Higher Dragon comes from Tree of Might which doesn't fit into the canon timeline, like, at all.

There's a reason why TFS cut that arc down so short.(Other than hating Icarus)

Note that Krillin later named his daughter Maron, which is pronounced identically to Marron.(The number of Rs might be backwards) which would be awkward as all Hell is the Garlic Junior arc actually happened.

[Lemmy]

Note that Krillin later named his daughter Maron, which is pronounced identically to Marron.(The number of Rs might be backwards) which would be awkward as all Hell is the Garlic Junior arc actually happened.

It's pronounced slightly different (at least in Japanese)... DBS actually jokes about it when #17 mispronounces the name (saying it like the name of Krillin ex-gf) and #18 corrects him with an annoyed look in her face. It was one of the few legitimately funny jokes in DBS.

[Aotrs Commander]

Assuming by Marron, you mean the blue haired girl with breasts instead of brains... That wasn't one particular episode. She was around for most of the Garlic Junior Saga... Which is not only non-canon filler, but it's dependant on not one but two of the movies, and while the only thing that really works against Garlic Junior's movie is that if it were canon then Piccolo and Krillin would have known about Gohan earliar than they did in the series, Icarus/Higher Dragon comes from Tree of Might which doesn't fit into the canon timeline, like, at all.

There's a reason why TFS cut that arc down so short.(Other than hating Icarus)

Note that Krillin later named his daughter Maron, which is pronounced identically to Marron.(The number of Rs might be backwards) which would be awkward as all Hell is the Garlic Junior arc actually happened.

Frag dammit, that'll teach me not to look it up especially when I know damn well that it is, as they say, a sticky issue and...

...

Hang on, no, I was right, Maron is the ex-girlfriend, Marron is the daughter.

Ah oh, okay, yeah, not something THAT worth not missing, as I think I (not particularly intentionally, but I didn't watch DBZ religiously) skipped the Garlic Jnr saga when it was airing, and it doesn't have a particularly good reputation. (Well, TFS seem to all hate it, at any rate! Sort of a shame, really, since a story where the characters that are not Goku getting a chance to shine more is a cool idea.)

[Rater202]

Hang on, no, I was right, Maron is the ex-girlfriend, Marron is the daughter.

Ah oh, okay, yeah, not something THAT worth missing, as I think I (not particularly intentionally, but I didn't watch DBZ religiously) skipped the Garlic Jnr saga when it was airing, and it doesn't have a particularly good reputation. (Well, TFS seem to all hate it, at any rate! Sort of a shame, really, since a story where the characters that are not Goku getting a chance to shine more is a cool idea.)

Grant of TFS, who primarily works on the gaming channel, has commented that he'd really like a mini-arc of Mr. Satan hanging out with Master Roshi and actually learning to use a little bit of Ki. Like, not enough to do the main cast's thing, but like, maybe hover for a minute.

I, personally, would like it is, when Dragon Ball eventually comes back either as Super being revived or yet another series, if they did a thing post the last episode of Z that was mostly just episodes of the various cast members in assorted groups doing their own thing and then everybody coming together for the big stories.

[zimmerwald1915]

Grant of TFS, who primarily works on the gaming channel, has commented that he'd really like a mini-arc of Mr. Satan hanging out with Master Roshi and actually learning to use a little bit of Ki. Like, not enough to do the main cast's thing, but like, maybe hover for a minute.

So basically what we got with Videl in the Buu arc?

Whatever happened to that, by the way? I don't recall her flying in Super.

[Rater202]

So basically what we got with Videl in the Buu arc?

Whatever happened to that, by the way? I don't recall her flying in Super.

She flew a little bit in the Great Saiyaman mini-arc.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: Episode 126

Show

So. I think this is the most important episode of this arc, because its going to decide the entire rest of the arc. The people who get ringed out this episode, will decide the entire direction its going.

we've already seen this, get on with it episode....

Toppo, your enemies won't stop trying to beat you just because you say its futile. like, just think for a moment: at what point would that ever MEAN anything?

annnnnd....Freeza comes in for the save for 17! didn't expect that.

oh right, that other high level fight is happening over there.

and then Vegeta comes to Final Flash against Toppo, but fails, hm.

Toppo proclaims that he cast aside everything unnecessary. hm....

so Vegeta responds "I'M NOT LIKE YOU! I CAST ASIDE NOTHING!" and it. is. BEAUTIFUL.

VEGETA IS WINNING!? OH MY GOD.....YES!!!!

OH...OH....OOOOOOOOOOOH. ITS THAT ATTACK. THE ONE HE USED AGAINST BUU.

.....*I AM SPEECHLESS, JAW DROPPED*

half the arena is gone......Toppo is knocked out.....BUT VEGETA IS ALIVE!!!!! BY THE GODS, VEGETA THAT WAS AWESOME!

wait wait wait wait WHAAAAAAAAT. Jiren: Toppo. Just. became. A God. Of. DESTRUCTION to try and win, and all you can say is "pathetic, I expected more from you."??? that HARSH dude. harsh.

......NO NO NO NO NO NO NO, JIREN IS GETTING SERIOUS NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.....

Tournament Status:
U7: 4/10
U11: 1/10
U3: Erased.
U4: Erased.
U2: Erased.
U6: Erased.
U10: Erased.
U9: Erased.
Total: 5 fighters remaining.

Note: Toppo was shown to fall out, but Freeza was NOT shown to fall out, they slipped Freeza passed us entirely. freeza is still in this, but they're making it look like Vegeta, Goku and 17 are the ones left. remember, they're not knocked out until its confirmed. which means......that Freeza victory is getting more and more likely.....

Preview: oh. Its 17's last episode then. yup, thats gonna be awesome. 17 doing his best to hold off against Jiren to buy time for/protecting Goku and Vegeta or whatever? best send off ever. all for it.

[Jayngfet]

She flew a little bit in the Great Saiyaman mini-arc.

Videl's main problem is she's a human who showed up in the last arc of a show that basically decided if you aren't a Saiyan you didn't matter, unless you were Piccolo in which case you get lip service and not much else, and that nobody else in the world could use Ki attacks unless they trained under Roshi or Shen or Piccolo.

That's why Yurin is kind of a big deal. She trained under Shen, same as he did, for an unknown period of time beginning before Z began. Meaning she should have about as much experience with martial arts as a main cast member, but has her own niche that lets her do actual unique things and has motivation to actually be around the main cast beyond fighting bad guys. It's an actual indication that people we haven't met are at least on some level capable of actually accomplishing things.

The only problem is that Super kind of forgets the Crane school is stronger than the Turtle school and that Yurin would be able to use the Dodon Ray, fly, and possibly the Tribeam. By all rights she's probably decently powerful, but Super kind of takes the worst of Z's aspects in that it doesn't bother to develop minor characters.

[khadgar567]

Spoiler: vegeta the saiyan of power ups

Show

Damn you vegeta for dodging another power up and this time its super saiyan yellow the one he blinks and dodges to fully transform. We all know you are greedy for power to beat goku but for love of beerus chill the f out for a arc so goku can reach you.
his power ups during the tournament.

• ultra instinct clone that currently not named
• super saiyan blue ultra dusion
• super saiyan blue 2
• super saiyan yellow

that's four power ups for next arc to name and develop so anime can go quite a while

[lord_khaine]

Spoiler

Show

wait wait wait wait WHAAAAAAAAT. Jiren: Toppo. Just. became. A God. Of. DESTRUCTION to try and win, and all you can say is "pathetic, I expected more from you."??? that HARSH dude. harsh.

Well.. he explained his stance on the topic perfectly well to Vegeta "you gained this much power without casting anything aside? well done"
Toppo meanwhile abbandoned everything, including Justice, in favor of destruction. Of course Jiren, who has surpassed a god, would find that pathetic.

[Rater202]

So apparently at some point last Year Akira Toriyama did an interview where he mentioned that The Original Super Saiyan and the Super Saiyan God from the Legend were the same person, a Saiyan named Yamoshi.

Since the movie coming out late this year is about Saiyan history, I'm thinking that this will be significant.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler

Show

Well.. he explained his stance on the topic perfectly well to Vegeta "you gained this much power without casting anything aside? well done"
Toppo meanwhile abbandoned everything, including Justice, in favor of destruction. Of course Jiren, who has surpassed a god, would find that pathetic.

Spoiler

Show

Ooooooh, that makes more sense. Still, its kind of cold of Jiren to say that right to his own leader and teammate that he has presumably has worked for years and years with fighting evil. I'm getting the impression that Jiren doesn't spend a lot of downtime with the rest of the troopers and that he is kind of a workaholic. like, he acknowledges them as allies, fights for justice and works with them as a team, but he never really seems to regard any of the people around him as friends.

like he never does a ridiculous pose for he fun of it, he never jokes, he never does anything to lighten the mood, he is stone cold serious and straight laced about his mission to the end. while devoted to fighting and
getting stronger, its perfectly within reason that if you want enforce justice you got to be the strongest person around. that could be the "that which is beyond strength" that he is talking about- that the purpose he wants to do with that strength, the power to enforce justice, maybe even among the gods.

because lets be honest: nothing the gods have done throughout all of Super have been particularly Just at all. Jiren is exactly the kind of guy that would refuse any form of blue and orange morality as an excuse for one's actions. Because he takes what he does Seriously, without even a single joke to him. In an entire franchise where every antagonist from people like Freeza all the way to Zamasu all had something comical and ridiculous about them that make them entertaining. Jiren doesn't seem to have any and the bit of personality we actually get is him deriding his own teammate and calling them pathetic, says a lot about what kind of guy he is.

So apparently at some point last Year Akira Toriyama did an interview where he mentioned that The Original Super Saiyan and the Super Saiyan God from the Legend were the same person, a Saiyan named Yamoshi.

Since the movie coming out late this year is about Saiyan history, I'm thinking that this will be significant.

Edit: and right when I'm about to make my own story of the first super saiyan in the Dragon Ball roleplay. There goes that "Toriyama is reading my mind" feeling again. either or we think on very similar wavelengths.

[Anteros]

I don't know why anyone is surprised. We've all seen this fight before.

Spoiler

Show

[lord_khaine]

Bwahahaha! thats scarily spot on :P

[Spamotron]

My memory is failing there's 4ish episodes before the end/hiatus right?

So the most likely progression is an episode showing off and hyping Jiren's full power, then an episode of Goku powering up to Ultra Instinct again, then the climax of the tournament, finally the aftermath and wish on Super Shenron. 3 episodes is probably enough for a reasonably well paced fight but the final/aftermath episode is going to be super dense if its not going to leave a ton of loose ends.

[Xihirli]

Spoiler: vegeta the saiyan of power ups

Show

Damn you vegeta for dodging another power up and this time its super saiyan yellow the one he blinks and dodges to fully transform. We all know you are greedy for power to beat goku but for love of beerus chill the f out for a arc so goku can reach you.
his power ups during the tournament.

• ultra instinct clone that currently not named
• super saiyan blue ultra dusion
• super saiyan blue 2
• super saiyan yellow

that's four power ups for next arc to name and develop so anime can go quite a while

Well that first one never happened.
That second one never happened.
That's a possible name for the one transformation he's grabbed during this arc.
And Super Saiyan Yellow is just Super Saiyan. He doesn't use it this episode.

[Lord Raziere]

My memory is failing there's 4ish episodes before the end/hiatus right?

So the most likely progression is an episode showing off and hyping Jiren's full power, then an episode of Goku powering up to Ultra Instinct again, then the climax of the tournament, finally the aftermath and wish on Super Shenron. 3 episodes is probably enough for a reasonably well paced fight but the final/aftermath episode is going to be super dense if its not going to leave a ton of loose ends.

The last episode is going be 131. its currently 126:

so:
127
128
129
130
131

actually five episode total, with four episodes, one for each remaining minute of the tournament plus one for the conclusion.

[khadgar567]

Well that first one never happened.
That second one never happened.
That's a possible name for the one transformation he's grabbed during this arc.
And Super Saiyan Yellow is just Super Saiyan. He doesn't use it this episode.

ow come on mate. think of it as plot hooks vegeta split second day viewing to much to stop series in four episodes. the whole power ups he shows gonna end up be named and i will say "i said it" when it happens.( as far as i know i kinda newer miss the plot by to much margin). Its all have solid clues hidden in episodes so series not gonna end by long shot.

[Devonix]

A lot of it is fans demanding names or new forms when not needed. I've always found Acended Saiyan and all of the nonsense between super Sayian and SS2 to be rather stupid.

The " Forms " themselves were fine I thought naming them was dumb.

[Xihirli]

ow come on mate. think of it as plot hooks vegeta split second day viewing to much to stop series in four episodes. the whole power ups he shows gonna end up be named and i will say "i said it" when it happens.( as far as i know i kinda newer miss the plot by to much margin). Its all have solid clues hidden in episodes so series not gonna end by long shot.

Not sure what that means but Vegeta absolutely did not get Ultra Instinct (or similar) and, with only a few episodes left, it doesn't look like he will.
Are you referring to that time he dodged Jiren's fast-fist thing?
That was explicitly not ultra instinct, not just because it was said but because it was shown that he planned it out, the exact opposite of Ultra Instinct.
Or do you think Dyspo gets Ultra Instinct when he dodges things, too?