Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

[Reddish Mage]

Depends on how you define "best fighter".

a fighter who gets ringed out or dies isn't really the best are they? cause if they were, they wouldn't be eliminated or dead.

I wouldn't be surprised at it being played that way. It'll be dumb, but well, Dragon Ball is hardly new to dumb.

This isn’t just dumb reasoning though. This is the sort of moronic reasoning that takes someone being overly-intellectual to reason. These are not the thoughts of a child-like entity that is wowed by every transformation and big explosion.

If Goku were to drop out taking Jiren out, there is no way Frieza ends up looking like the strongest fighter. He looks like some guy that sat out the whole battle and happened to be the last one left standing.

Has anyone considered there’s a possibility that Jiren lasts to the end or gets taken out by Goku and Frieza together. In either case, it is possible that Jiren is the strongest fighter even if Universe 11 loses.

[Spellbreaker26]

How would they define best fighter though, if not the last man standing? Defeat count? Zeno's whims?

[Lord Raziere]

How would they define best fighter though, if not the last man standing? Defeat count? Zeno's whims?

Yeah, they don't seem to be tracking who took out the most people, and it could easily be Zeno's whims, after all, its not as if the rest of the seven Universes will be around to protest the unfairness of it. But given that this is a tournament thats all about endurance and lasting the longest, my default assumption is "last man standing".

of course, given how there are two of them, one Zeno might say Goku is the best fighter while another might say Jiren is the best and thus have a disagreement. thus deciding which ones whim is the one to go with gets terrifying, therefore it might default to Freeza simply because they can't agree, otherwise the Zenos will destroy everything in disagreeing with each other.

[The Troubadour]

I'll just say one last thing regarding Vegeta's development and then keep my peace.

Look at Vegeta throughout the original series:

- After the Namek arc, he trains obsessively in order to become a Super Saiyan and overcome Goku.

- During the Androids / Cell arc, after being defeated and utterly humiliated by both #18 and Cell, he trains obsessively once more to become even stronger.

- After being shown up by both Goku and Gohan at the end of the Cell arc, he swears he will never fight again, and years later, he's not only training Trunks but has also been training for himself (a lot of people forget that at first he was going to the Budokai to fight GOHAN, Goku only came into the picture later - read chapter #427). An interesting thing to note is that in spite of Vegeta keeping up with his training (he's seen having mastered 100x gravity, for instance - chapter #430) just as obsessively as ever (even Goku says that in chapter #460), Vegeta never achieves Super Saiyan 2 on his own; he still needs the boost from Babidi's possession to become equal to Goku, something which once again became his driving goal.

- Now, this is very important: fighting Goku had once again become his driving goal, to the point he didn't care whether Boo got loose or not. He only starts to turn back from that once Goku reminds him that even Bulma and Trunks would be killed (chapter #463). Even before that, his pride was still the core of his identity, to the point that even after acknowledging he had sold his "body and soul" to Babidi, he never let Babidi near his pride.

- After all that, we have a repentant Vegeta actually apologising in his thoughts after thinking Boo had killed Gohan (#465), completely willing to throw away his life to kill Boo even before seeing just how strong Boo actually was (that is, when he still thought he could defeat Boo - #466), hugging Trunks (something he admitted he had never done - #467), and sacrificing himself to kill Boo even though he knew he wouldn't be able to fight Goku again even in the afterlife (#468). So, in one swoop, we have Vegeta abandoning his driving goal and, for the first time in his life, fighting for others, not for himself.

- Now, read chapter #511. In quick succession, Vegeta finally admits Goku is stronger than him AND is willing to act as just a diversionary act while Goku gathers his full strength, once again letting go of his two central pillars, his pride and his desire to surpass Goku.

[As an side, it's really funny seeing a few continuity goofs by Toriyama when re-reading these chapters.]

- Then, we go to chapter #519, the beginning of the end of the original canon. Notice that while Goku is training with Goten, Vegeta is just dressed in regular clothes and seems pretty much calmer, overall. Even though he takes part once more in the Budokai, it seems like it's more due to curiosity about the incredible fighter Goku is looking for than anything else (see how Goku actually has to ask him to take part! And then, in chapter #520, he doesn't even care that Goku abandoned the tournament). And sure, it's 10 years after the fight with Boo, but we can clearly see it's a natural progression of his character development.

So, all of those things people have praised "Super" for when it comes to Vegeta's character development? The original series already did most of them. Meanwhile, in "Super" (and "Battle of the Gods" and "Resurrection 'F' "), we have Vegeta training instead of attending Bulma's birthday party (while also wearing Saiyan armour; seems like a small thing to note, but he never once wore it after the Cell Saga), once again letting go of his pride to keep Beerus amused, and once again obsessively training in order to catch up to Goku (to the point he became Super Saiyan God without undergoing the necessary ritual!).

Which is why I said Vegeta's character development keeps regressing, not that it regressed, period: "Super" has him as both the pride-and-strength-obsessed Saiyan prince from most of the original series AND as the still-proud-but-calmer-and-much-more-dignified character he became during and after the Boo Saga. And yes, it's been argued that that's natural since people don't change all at once, but that's bull - characters aren't real people, and the two sides of the character don't mesh all that well.

[Also, it's important to note that while Vegeta was Goku's most iconic rival in the original series, he never really caught up to Goku'. "Super" went more with the memetic view of their rivalry than what actually happened in the original series.]

[Anteros]

Freeza is not going to get the wish. The series is not going to end on a massive down note, or a cliff hanger, and they have said multiple times that it is ending with no plans to continue it at this time. Any quotes you've seen talking about how Dragonball will continue are talking about the extended universe like movies, or games. It is possible that there will be a new series one day, but it is in no way guaranteed.

The actual quotes from official sources

Thank you for all your love and support for #DragonBallSuper! The Universe Survival Saga will reach its conclusion at the end of March, but the 20th Dragon Ball feature film is currently in production and the series continues its English dub run on Toonami! Dragon Ball lives on!

“Thanks for always supporting us! The TV series Dragon Ball Super’s Universe Survival arc finally reaches its climax at the end of March, so please support us to the end! There’s also a movie this December too! The Dragon Ball series will continue on, so look forward to it!”

At present it is ending; beyond that is still undecided.

You'll notice that every time they talk about Dragonball continuing they are bringing up movies and games in the same breath. We've also had numerous quotes from people working on Super like art directors and voice actors talking about how they are sad because the series is over. Why would they be saying these things if it was just a hiatus?

I'm sure Dragonball will be back one day. It's too much of a cash cow to be ignored forever. However, I'm equally sure that whatever the end of Super will be, it won't be a cliff hanger to set up some future series that may never actually exist.

Snip because my post is already too long.

Most of that character development happened off screen and is no longer canon anyway. Super is actually picking up the development from where the Buu saga left off. Is it really that surprising that people prefer actually watching a character develop to simply being told that it happened at some point during a time skip?

[Lord Raziere]

....If what Anteros says is true, then it is sad, but I unfortunately have graver news still.

Kaiserneko has tweeted that the episode 60 of DBZA may be its last. both Super and DBZA are ending.

.......I.......feel true sadness at this. DBZA has been there apart of my life for so long that.....this and Super going......makes me feel lost. I just have come to see myself as a big Dragon Ball fan and now......I feel shattered. What can I possibly do about this? .......I don't know. I really don't.

Maybe this doesn't hold much meaning to many other people, and perhaps they don't ascribe much meaning or whatever to DB. I do. What Dragon Ball means to me.....maybe I'm an idealist, maybe I'm a fool, but its about fighting for whats right, even if its a world where that doesn't always work out, maybe about facing the impossible odds, or the examination of pride, or the dangers of the lust for anything as Goku shows how his lust for battle gets into increasingly dangerous situations, or whatever else, I'm doing a bad job of explaining it, stuff like that.

and now I'll have to find a way to deal with this.......and I don't know man, I don't know. there isn't anything exactly like Dragon Ball out there. A universe where martial artists can destroy planets if they're not careful, where the power is so high that time travel or wishes are involved it just......sigh. I'm going to miss this and.....I don't know what I'll focus on instead, DBZA has given so much happiness and DBZ and Super both so many good fights at the very least if nothing else, that.....its just.....a big change and saying goodbye to two things that I enjoyed on some level for quite a while, especially with TFS breathing new life into the characters and Super expanding upon the DB universe in ways I never imagined, and I don't know how to feel towards TFS for doing this......I just.....

I don't know.....I don't know....

[Anteros]

I like abridged too, and I'm sure I've watched it more than most. I even play it sometimes as background noise when I'm doing other stuff. I just finished rewatching the whole thing a few days ago. That said, it's just a TV show. I'm sure you'll be fine.

I suspect that abridged may return anyway once they figure out that people aren't willing to keep giving them money to just make videos of themselves playing video games when they aren't putting out actual content.

[Mechalich]

You'll notice that every time they talk about Dragonball continuing they are bringing up movies and games in the same breath. We've also had numerous quotes from people working on Super like art directors and voice actors talking about how they are sad because the series is over. Why would they be saying these things if it was just a hiatus?

I'm sure Dragonball will be back one day. It's too much of a cash cow to be ignored forever. However, I'm equally sure that whatever the end of Super will be, it won't be a cliff hanger to set up some future series that may never actually exist.

Anime contracting is weird. You can have a 'Series One' of something that is legally almost totally unconnected with 'Series Two' even though they may take place in the exact same plotline separated by less than five minutes of in-universe time. It is probable that the conclusion of Super's current run brings all outstanding contracts to an end, meaning that if more were to be produced later everyone who have to be rehired and it might well be a new production company for purposes of financial chicanery and so on but still ultimately be the same thing.

What is known to be happening right now is that everyone is being dragged over to work on a new movie. If the movie or movies do well, I'd be amazed if they did not re-produce them in anime form considering that's a super-cheap way to acquire a pile of cash for a property like Dragonball. My guess would be new animation in the winter 2019 or spring 2020 seasons, though whether it will be a continuation of Super or something else is debatable.

Dragonball is currently in a much stronger position than it's been in a very long time, while the rest of the anime industry is comparatively weak. There's no way the franchise is being abandoned for all that long.

[Anteros]

I don't disagree that it's popular enough to make a comeback. I'm saying that there are no plans to do so at this time, so they are probably going to be trying to wrap up plot threads.

The movie that's coming out is some sort of prequel about the original Saiyan god. At least that's what I heard. I don't know if that's confirmed. Then again, even if it's true, Goku will probably still end up fighting him somehow.

[Starwulf]

I don't disagree that it's popular enough to make a comeback. I'm saying that there are no plans to do so at this time, so they are probably going to be trying to wrap up plot threads.

The movie that's coming out is some sort of prequel about the original Saiyan god. At least that's what I heard. I don't know if that's confirmed. Then again, even if it's true, Goku will probably still end up fighting him somehow.

*We find Bulma hard at work on making a new time machine from the specs her future self sent back with Trunks*. Bulma: "There, finally got everything just right. Even if Whis and Beerus say we can't use it, at least I can say I made a functioning time machine. No other scientist can claim that, not even Dr. Gero!" *Goku randomly teleports into her lab, intent on finding Vegeta to spar with*. Goku: Oh hey Bulma, have you seen... Whoa, what is that?! Is that Trunks time machine? That is so cool, I always wanted to try it out". Bulma: "Yes and no, Goku. It's a time machine, but it's not Trunks, it's a brand new one that I just built. But you can't use it, Whis said we're not allowed to mess with time because it could fundamentally change the fabric of reality". Goku: "Oh, they won't care, they're our friends". *Goku quickly hops into the Time Machine and starts fiddling with stuff*. Goku: "Now, if I remember correctly, Trunks moved his hands in this pattern while holding onto these levers". *The time machine starts flying up into the air, as Bulma looks on in horror*. Bulma: "Noooo! Whis is going to be so mad at me".

And that is how Goku ends up in time and gets to fight the very first Super Saiyan God!

[Phexar]

It would be absolutely hilarious if they recycle the end of the Namek Saga for this, with Freeza unable to make his wish.

Freeza really should have put some time into learning other languages.

Wow, I forgot that you needed to speak that one phrase in the language of the gods to actually use the Super Dragon Balls, meaning you'd either need to know the language and the phrase yourself or have Grand Priest and co translate. With all the other callbacks that really would be a perfect way to screw Frieza out of using the Super Dragon Balls after his failure to get his wish back on Namek. Heh.

[Lemmy]

Kaiserneko has tweeted that the episode 60 of DBZA may be its last. both Super and DBZA are ending.

I'm far sadder about this than about the end of DBS. I guess whatever legal issue came up was far more serious than expected... IIRC, their original plan was to tend at the Cell saga, but they later changed their minds. Sad to see it go... Let's hope they eventually find a way to make it work again.

[Rater202]

I suspect that abridged may return anyway once they figure out that people aren't willing to keep giving them money to just make videos of themselves playing video games when they aren't putting out actual content.

Actually, they make most of their money off of ads on the gaming channel and twitch donations.

Like, DBZA is non-profit, they don't make any money off of it or their other parody's directly

Also, TFS's individual members all do legitimate voicework and Team Four Star is handling the official Dub of Hells so I'd say that they're producing plenty of "Original Content,"not even counting thata lot of the time they make up their own original stories for the games they're playing.

[Mato]

I suspect that abridged may return anyway once they figure out that people aren't willing to keep giving them money to just make videos of themselves playing video games when they aren't putting out actual content.

To many people think Twitch is a thing but it'd be nice.

It's been like 8 months since the last DBZA and they have had nothing but increase the delay between each episode, it's not hard to figure out they have abandoned it for better money makers. It's actually how most of this stuff goes, your favorite Youtube channels are nothing more resumes to them and your donated money and Patron signup to encourage their continued work has less value to them than a paystub for direct deposits. Once the money comes in it's all about the money.

[zimmerwald1915]

Also, TFS's individual members all do legitimate voicework.

(Scab voice work that undermines standards for everyone else in the industry)

[Spellbreaker26]

(Scab voice work that undermines standards for everyone else in the industry)

If TFS is involved then standards are anything but lowered.

Also, while I'm sad we're not getting the Buu Saga, I think the fact that they were able to get a full 60 eps and three sagas (and eight or so movies) done with a pretty consistently good quality level means that I don't think we can expect much more of them. They've all got careers to go on now, and considering DBZA was something that cost us nothing, and earns them nothing directly while being an insane commitment of time and resources means that I'm more or less content to end on the Cell Arc.

I also reckon that the long wait for 60 has been a combination of perfectionism (especially as it's the grand finale, they all want it to be great), other commitments and fear that it will be taken down by Toei.

[zimmerwald1915]

If TFS is involved then standards are anything but lowered.

Uh huh. You try coming off a months-long strike to an industry that still refuses to pay residuals and tell me standards aren't being lowered.

Obviously, there's plenty of blame to go around, and the publishers own the vast majority of it. But we're all just a bit complicit, no?

[Douglas]

I think you two may be talking about different standards. My impression is that Spellbreaker26 is talking about standard of quality while zimmerwald1915 is talking about standard of payment. Those are two very different subjects.

On quality, I think TFS has done an excellent job on DBZA, which I would assume carries over to their other works. On payment, I have no idea how much they're getting paid for anything.

[Lord Raziere]

I like abridged too, and I'm sure I've watched it more than most. I even play it sometimes as background noise when I'm doing other stuff. I just finished rewatching the whole thing a few days ago. That said, it's just a TV show. I'm sure you'll be fine.

Sigh.....maybe? I guess? Eh. I don't agree but I appreciate and respect the attempt to say that things will get better in your own way from that perspective. It is more than I can say for some.

I knew it was going to come eventually, but I thought I had more time....when you find something, anything that you consider a bright jewel in this world shining above others, you find it hard to see anything as replacement or able scratch the same itch. there is a certain feel unique to each individual thing that is particularly well done and I find it hard to find things that replicate those feels exactly. maybe if it were one or other, DB Super or DBZA maybe I'd feel less sad but both has more of an impact. and I find that making the stories you want yourself has an entirely different feel to watching those stories unfold from someone else, because you have to plan things out nonlinearly, connect moments in time somehow and therefore you cannot have the tension and pleasure of being surprised from doing so, so its not really making the same thing for yourself.

oh well, I guess at least I do have time for other things like videogames I want to play, and there is all the other content they produce that I find high-quality so I'll go back to watching them soon, its just that....DBZA had a special place in my heart and feel a little heartbroken over it. I don't think it'll be quite the same.

[Spellbreaker26]

Uh huh. You try coming off a months-long strike to an industry that still refuses to pay residuals and tell me standards aren't being lowered.

While I don't have a whole lot of love for video game companies I feel residuals (i.e. royalties) aren't appropriate for the roles most voice actors play in most video games (and I am far from the only person who thinks this). Certainly, describing people just trying to break into the industry as "scabs" is completely unmerited. They've had what, two or three cameos as generic voices?

[Anteros]

Actually, they make most of their money off of ads on the gaming channel and twitch donations.

Like, DBZA is non-profit, they don't make any money off of it or their other parody's directly

Also, TFS's individual members all do legitimate voicework and Team Four Star is handling the official Dub of Hells so I'd say that they're producing plenty of "Original Content,"not even counting thata lot of the time they make up their own original stories for the games they're playing.

Dbza has a patreon, and most of that other stuff only exists because Dbza gave them a huge amount of popularity and exposure. I'm not sure their gaming channels will do nearly as well without that.

[Lord Raziere]

Dbza has a patreon, and most of that other stuff only exists because Dbza gave them a huge amount of popularity and exposure. I'm not sure their gaming channels will do nearly as well without that.

Hm, maybe? DBZA is big for what it is, and if its a Demo Reel situation where like the Nostalgia Critic they try to end it but it turns out that the new thing they try to make work just doesn't interest anybody? that could be a problem, because its puts TFS like the Nostalgia Critic between a rock and a hard place: their content inherently relies upon critiquing (I mean since when is a parody not in some a critique and examination or the original work in a funny light?) the original source and people come to see that.....but the original source doesn't like them doing that, so either way it gets them trouble.

they could get demo-reeled, it is something that has happened before with a similar producer of such content, the question is whether demo reel was just a one time failure or an early indication of a coming trend.

[Lemmy]

The main probl3m with Demo Reel is that, honestly... It wasn't good. It had a few good moments here and there, but it simply wasn't funny.

The NC tried to pass his return as "I'm excited about NC again!", but let's be honest... He just needed a profitable show.

[Rater202]

Dbza has a patreon, and most of that other stuff only exists because Dbza gave them a huge amount of popularity and exposure. I'm not sure their gaming channels will do nearly as well without that.

DBZA ending doesn't mean that all of the popularity and exposure it's given them will just disappear and the episodes they've already madewill still be there to tract newpeople via reputation.

couple this with the fact that the gaming channel's content is both more profitable and more regular and that TFS is an actual legitimate production Studio with legit Voice Work and is actually handling full official dubs now and I think that they'll be fine.

[Lemmy]

I don't think they'll go broke... But I believe they will suffer a significant drop in revenue from Patreon and possibly merchandise as well.

I wish them the best, though. Hopefully at some point in the future they decide to make the Buu saga or at least a few more movies. :)

[Mystic Muse]

Do they have an estimate on when the final Cell saga episode will be released?

[Aotrs Commander]

So...

With Super probably ending and DBZA probably ending, I really picked the wrong year to start seriously looking into DB[x], didn't I?

...

...

This is probably somehow my fault, isn't it?

[Rater202]

So...

With Super probably ending and DBZA probably ending, I really picked the wrong year to start seriously looking into DB[x], didn't I?

...

...

This is probably somehow my fault, isn't it?

Probably.

But there's a Dragon Ball movie coming out in... December? and TFS is bound to have more content eventually, so...

[chainer1216]

Hopefully at some point in the future they decide to make the Buu saga or at least a few more movies. :)

You do realise theyre stopping because theyre being forced to by Toei right?

Toei copyright flags every single DBZA, Toei hates them so much that when Funimation tried to bring them in for a single episode of DBZKai they forced Funimation to remove their parts just hours before the episode aired, there was so little time that Funimation had to reuse the old dub.

Toei views them as competitors who are stealing their IP.

[Jayngfet]

You do realise theyre stopping because theyre being forced to by Toei right?

Toei copyright flags every single DBZA, Toei hates them so much that when Funimation tried to bring them in for a single episode of DBZKai they forced Funimation to remove their parts just hours before the episode aired, there was so little time that Funimation had to reuse the old dub.

Toei views them as competitors who are stealing their IP.

Funimation plays ball, everyone else does not. It's the same reason Attack on Titan Abridged got shut down. Funimation was cool with it, obtuse japanese businessmen were not, and since the anime industry is run and funded by obtuse japanese businessmen, TFS basically has to fight tooth and nail for every upload between that, Youtube and Facebook's increasingly draconian and unfair measures, and their obsessive desire for production quality causing delays.

DBZ Abridged, in a sense, is a threat to Super. Super is obsessed with the idea that the past doesn't exist and they're the first show to have a green super saiyan or make a joke about Popo being strict with an extreme close up. Anything distracting from that just makes it obvious how bad the animation quality and writing is. Especially when you factor in TFS actually re animating shots to a higher quality standard and putting the work in.