Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

[Rater202]

Dabura loving heaven isn't canon. Dabura being a cool dad who ultimately doesn't have any actual malice for the earth probably is though since he was in Sand Land and that occupies a similar spot to Jaco. Remember he was controlled by Babidi, how he was in DBZ isn't his actual default state. But then if Sand Land is canon then Beelzebub would probably be a viable pick as well since at kid Goku's age he was already fighting androids. Given my impression of the timeline that was hundreds of years ago and he'd be an adult by now(since Dabura mentioned there was nobody particularly strong last time he was on earth and that was hundreds of years ago).

This is ultimately the problem with Jaco being any kind of canon. Suddenly there are a bunch of other dubiously canon fighters that may or may not exist. Hell, if we're getting down to it Arale would probably be better than Frieza, but that's a totally different issue.

Here's the thing: In Sand Land, Beelzebub's father is called Satan in the original japanse and Lucifer in the translation, and while he has a similar design to Dabura, it'd be far from the first time that Toyiyama has recycled a character design.

Notable, Satan's horns are differant from Dabura's.

Honestly? Jaco was meant as a DB prequel from the begining and Dragon Ball characters make an apearance--The Brief Family and Goku are in the last chapter, the epilog is literally right before Bulma goes Dragon Ball hunting before the first arc of Dragon Ball. The Bonus Chapter at the end is Toriyama's own personal version of how Goku was sent to Earth(And establishes that Raditz survived Frieza's genocide becuase he was Vegeta's partner and considering that Goku's family were low class warriors and the only pure-blooded Saiyan Pacifist, I'm kind of curious as to how the hell that happened.)

Dr. Slump, meanwhile, has canonically crossed over with Dragon Ball twice.

My Rule of Thumb is that if a character doesn't have a non-filler, non-cameo apearance in a confirmed canon story, they're not in the Dragon World.

Otherwise we get weirdness.

I don't know why Arale wasn't considered In-Universe other than maybe Vegeta vetoing it offscreen or something, but from a writer's perspective the Tournment is a serious arc with serious stakes and Arale is a Gag character.

[Jayngfet]

The obvious difference is there are also two other space patrol manga and the concept was very clearly not meant to connect to Dragon Ball until years later.

[Rater202]

The obvious difference is there are also two other space patrol manga and the concept was very clearly not meant to connect to Dragon Ball until years later.

Note that Jiya is nowhere to be seen when all the members of the galactic patrol are assembled in Jaco's Manga and appear to have a differant Logo.

While the concept of a Galactic Patrol serving under a Galactic King is the same between the two, I don't think they're actually meant to be the same organization as much as Toriyama recycling the concept.

[deuterio12]

The Bonus Chapter at the end is Toriyama's own personal version of how Goku was sent to Earth(And establishes that Raditz survived Frieza's genocide becuase he was Vegeta's partner and considering that Goku's family were low class warriors and the only pure-blooded Saiyan Pacifist, I'm kind of curious as to how the hell that happened.)

Well what good is Vegeta being high-class royal blood if he doesn't have any low-class peasants to lord over?

[Reddish Mage]

Here's the thing: In Sand Land, Beelzebub's father is called Satan in the original japanse and Lucifer in the translation, and while he has a similar design to Dabura, it'd be far from the first time that Toyiyama has recycled a character design.

Notable, Satan's horns are differant from Dabura's.

Honestly? Jaco was meant as a DB prequel from the begining and Dragon Ball characters make an apearance--The Brief Family and Goku are in the last chapter, the epilog is literally right before Bulma goes Dragon Ball hunting before the first arc of Dragon Ball. The Bonus Chapter at the end is Toriyama's own personal version of how Goku was sent to Earth(And establishes that Raditz survived Frieza's genocide becuase he was Vegeta's partner and considering that Goku's family were low class warriors and the only pure-blooded Saiyan Pacifist, I'm kind of curious as to how the hell that happened.)

Dr. Slump, meanwhile, has canonically crossed over with Dragon Ball twice.

My Rule of Thumb is that if a character doesn't have a non-filler, non-cameo apearance in a confirmed canon story, they're not in the Dragon World.

Otherwise we get weirdness.

I don't know why Arale wasn't considered In-Universe other than maybe Vegeta vetoing it offscreen or something, but from a writer's perspective the Tournment is a serious arc with serious stakes and Arale is a Gag character.

Jaco is a fairly regular presence in DB Super but I agree that we can’t affirmatively conclude that all the characters in his manga are in the DB universe.

Arale’s episode Vegeta explicitly breaks the fourth wall to call her a “gag manga” character and himself a “battle manga” character. When the two franchises cross-over you can see the fabric of whatever substitutes for “reality” tearing.

If Arale and other Dr. Slump characters canonically exists in Dragonball Universe, then they are walking around with a reality warping field.

Its hard to think about them sharing a universe or take a cross-over seriously but its no less impossible than cartoon-comic cross-over Death Battle’s. Just note that Ararle will never be more than a cameo and certain minor characters just won’t show up.

As long as she stays in her corner, it really doesn’t matter if she is in the universe but physics is no doubt crying in a corner.

Well what good is Vegeta being high-class royal blood if he doesn't have any low-class peasants to lord over?

Eh sounds right. However, he certainly got over the need to have lower-class flunkies ever since he decided to kill Nappa and dedicate himself to getting stronger without the dead weight.

He still likes calling himself “prince of the Saiyans.”

[The Troubadour]

Goku met Arale and other "Dr. Slump" characters in the original series. They were reasonably important in a mini-arc or two.

[Rater202]

Jaco is a fairly regular presence in DB Super but I agree that we can’t affirmatively conclude that all the characters in his manga are in the DB universe.

Actually no, not what I meant.

Jaco is explicitly a prequel to Dragon Ball Z, showing how the Capsule Corp invented their flying cars as well as the official manga-canon events of Goku being sent to and arriving on Earth(As revealed in the final chapter, Jaco was literally there to assassinate the Saiyan that landed on Earth or else mercy kill the Planet's population if the Saiyan was too strong for him. Fortunately, he wasn't looking when Goku landed and thus assumed that the pod missed the planet.)

Though it's kind of sad--Jaco doesn't just save Tights, he also saves the very city that Vegeta would blow up a few decades later.

Likewise, basically the entire cast of Doctor Slump appeared in a rather significant mini-arc in The Red Ribbon Army saga of OG Dragon Ball It was Arale, and not Goku, who defeated General Blue once and for all, which in turn prompted Tao Pai Pai to be hired to Assassinate Goku, prompting Goku to start hunting the Dragon Balls in earnest instead of just looking for the Four Star Ball as a keepsake when Tao killed the father of Goku's new friend.

What I was talking about was similar character designs--Satan and Dabura--or Cameos, things that are more shoutouts or easter eggs to be found by fans of more than one of Toriyama's works.

[deuterio12]

Eh sounds right. However, he certainly got over the need to have lower-class flunkies ever since he decided to kill Nappa and dedicate himself to getting stronger without the dead weight.

Vegeta also got over conquering/destroying planets as a job.

And the same basically happened with Frieza, also reaching the conclusion having his personal army and going around conquering the universe is overrated and deciding instead to get personally stronger to try to surpass Goku.

[Rakaydos]

Didnt Arale get god-of-destruction DELETED earlier in super? I agree she could of been a canidate, but I dont think she exists anymore.

[Delicious Taffy]

Could *have neen a candidate. And no, only her villain's ghost got the Hakai.

[lord_khaine]

Vegeta also got over conquering/destroying planets as a job.

-breaking news-

Orange Hillbilly invents rehab for cosmic bad guys. "I will get back to conquering you monkeys as soon as i defeat Goku" Freezer comments, while doing pushups in the gravity chamber.
Experts predicts there will be galatic peace in our lifetime.

[Reddish Mage]

Vegeta also got over conquering/destroying planets as a job.

And the same basically happened with Frieza, also reaching the conclusion having his personal army and going around conquering the universe is overrated and deciding instead to get personally stronger to try to surpass Goku.

Eh, Frieza still went and got and had his subordinates round up his army after being resurrected. Of course, I recall he threw them away as canon fodder then killed them all.

So baby steps.

[deuterio12]

-breaking news-

Orange Hillbilly invents rehab for cosmic bad guys. "I will get back to conquering you monkeys as soon as i defeat Goku" Freezer comments, while doing pushups in the gravity chamber.
Experts predicts there will be galatic peace in our lifetime.

"I used to be some lame loser with no future, but after the Orange Hillbilly rehab I managed to get married to this hot rich woman and we have two healthy strong kids. It works!"-Vegeta, prince of all sayans comments.

Eh, Frieza still went and got and had his subordinates round up his army after being resurrected. Of course, I recall he threw them away as canon fodder then killed them all.

So baby steps.

To be fair Frieza's flunkie addiction was a lot more severe than Vegeta's. It's much easier to recover from bossing around a couple minions than to let go of your thousands/millions strong legion.

[Jan Mattys]

Vegeta also got over conquering/destroying planets as a job.

And the same basically happened with Frieza, also reaching the conclusion having his personal army and going around conquering the universe is overrated and deciding instead to get personally stronger to try to surpass Goku.

Main difference between Vegeta and Frieza:
If Vegeta ever becomes stronger than Goku, he just brags and enjoys the self-esteem.
If Frieza ever becomes stronger than Goku, he walks up to him and murderkills him on the spot, then immediatly resumes his universe-conquering spree.

[Lord Raziere]

Main difference between Vegeta and Frieza:
If Vegeta ever becomes stronger than Goku, he just brags and enjoys the self-esteem.
If Frieza ever becomes stronger than Goku, he walks up to him and murderkills him on the spot, then immediatly resumes his universe-conquering spree.

Pretty much. Freeza is the devil figure of Dragon Ball. The moment he sees his opportunity- Bam! Your dead. He is the guy with absolutely no redeeming features to him. I mean, just look at all the things he's done even now in the tournament, he is still the complete scumbag that floated down onto Namek to genocide an entire race until he becomes immortal, the only difference is that we're seeing a side of him that comes out when he doesn't have minions to boss around and has to treat people like equals or at least pretend to. Unsurprisingly all his negotiations feel like deals with the devil, people get screwed over. Fitting, given that Freeza's original plan was a planetary real estate scam.

[deuterio12]

Main difference between Vegeta and Frieza:
If Vegeta ever becomes stronger than Goku, he just brags and enjoys the self-esteem.
If Frieza ever becomes stronger than Goku, he walks up to him and murderkills him on the spot, then immediatly resumes his universe-conquering spree.

Says who? See below.

Pretty much. Freeza is the devil figure of Dragon Ball. The moment he sees his opportunity- Bam! Your dead.

Eerr, that's not how galactic empires work. Frieza clearly allowed a lot of people to live because those soldiers and ship builders and hospitals need to come from somewhere.. Even in the Namek arc he's always going "You're strong. Wanna join my army?"

He is the guy with absolutely no redeeming features to him. I mean, just look at all the things he's done even now in the tournament, he is still the complete scumbag that floated down onto Namek to genocide an entire race until he becomes immortal, the only difference is that we're seeing a side of him that comes out when he doesn't have minions to boss around and has to treat people like equals or at least pretend to.

In contrast to Vegeta who was willing to genocide all humans until he becomes immortal (aka the reason he came to Earth in the first place)?

In contrast to Vegeta who genocided at least one whole race along their planet just because he considered they were not the trouble of selling?

Unsurprisingly all his negotiations feel like deals with the devil, people get screwed over. Fitting, given that Freeza's original plan was a planetary real estate scam.

Yet his minions were willing to ressurect him.

Before meeting Goku, Frieza was running pretty much the biggest empire in the series. He has a vast disciplined army and all the factories and engineers, medics and whatnot to keep it running. He employed a vast variety of species under his command and managed to make them all work together, and they liked it enough to risk bringing Frieza back, so he was doing something right to gain that kind of loyalty.

But after meeting Goku, Frieza started shifting from "empire builder" to "I'll make myself stronger", just like Vegeta.

Now they just need to find a partner for Frieza to love.

[lord_khaine]

But after meeting Goku, Frieza started shifting from "empire builder" to "I'll make myself stronger", just like Vegeta.

Now they just need to find a partner for Frieza to love.

-Hillbilly rehab- is on the case. Right now they are promising they certainly isnt desperate enough to mess around with alternate futures to find another freezer.

[Lord Raziere]

No.

Noooo.

Freeza's not getting redeemed. Thats ridiculous. Its funny to think about, but seriously: Freeza is kind of the villain that any future Dragon Ball thing needs. They are not going to let him become a hero, because we've already have a cast of heroes growing way too large, you need some villainy around to keep people from wondering why everyone does just gang up on the villain en masse and defeat him, and we've reached the logical limits of the multiverse, with Whis outright stating that we've come Zen-Oh, the one above all, and now fighting in a limitless void just to avoid destroying anything else.

And we've seen Freeza get another freeza as a potential lover. His name was Frost. Look what he did to HIM. Guy is erased now, and not from his universe failing, but from trolling him so hard he said "screw the rules I'm attacking you!" and got erased for the violation. Freeza don't care for even another version of himself, there is no Bulma in the world that will fix that. Freeza being evil is so built into the Dragon Ball fanbase by now, that its simply a bad idea to mess with that now, the opportunity has passed, and Freeza has had too many chances that he threw away. for a story like this, you need someone who is more than just a rival, you need a Joker to his Batman. Freeza fulfills that role quite well. Because thats all I think is happening: he isn't on any path to redemption, he is just Goku's Joker now.

[Ibrinar]

Well the answer to the ganging up question is usual that db tends to not be satisfied with small power jumps, no the new big bad must be able to effortlessly crush everyone effortlessld, making anyone who hasn't gotten his power ups for the arc a small fry and small fry get crushed regardless of numbers.

Yet his minions were willing to ressurect him.

Before meeting Goku, Frieza was running pretty much the biggest empire in the series. He has a vast disciplined army and all the factories and engineers, medics and whatnot to keep it running. He employed a vast variety of species under his command and managed to make them all work together, and they liked it enough to risk bringing Frieza back, so he was doing something right to gain that kind of loyalty.

But after meeting Goku, Frieza started shifting from "empire builder" to "I'll make myself stronger", just like Vegeta.

Now they just need to find a partner for Frieza to love.

Minions would have benefited from some of his/ the organizations reflected power and if your organization isn't popular losing your leadership puts you in a bad spot because you are vulnerable to some disgruntled people now. And even the worst leaders often have some devoted people. Minions wanting him back doesn't mean much, normal citizens of his empire would be more impressive.

[Lord Raziere]

Well the answer to the ganging up question is usual that db tends to not be satisfied with small power jumps, no the new big bad must be able to effortlessly crush everyone effortlessld, making anyone who hasn't gotten his power ups for the arc a small fry and small fry get crushed regardless of numbers.

Which is exactly why Freeza is NEEDED.

The Angels are not going to become evil any time soon. Zen-Oh is hax raxxorz and wipes out universes without even being a fighter, but is a child and innocent. The grand Priest is too neutral to be a villain.

The only surviving evil guy right now is Freeza, and the only one with any motivation to keep getting stronger to kill everyone to take power for himself. He is the exactly the guy who would want to get back to being an all-crushing big bad.

I don't believe in Memeku the villain rehab guy. I'm stopping that stupidity before that kind of nonsense starts. We already have Batmeme and Supermeme ruining those characters, we don't need villain rehab Memeku ruining a third character.

[Rater202]

The only time ganging up has ever actually worked in canon Dragon Ball Material was Paur and Upa against Baba's vampire(Fangs in the dub, not sure in Original. Dude was like a kick boxer or something) and that's becuase they'd eaten garlic right before the fight(it being two on one was to make it a fair fight)

Other than that... Combination attacks in video games and the Goku and Frieza story mode endings of FighterZ(Android 21 has both Cell's regenerative abillities and Majib Buu's abillity to reformand reconstitute, making her perhaps the singlemost durable being in theDragon Ball Franchise. In Gku's Story Mode, she's beaten by the Entire Party--Goku, Gohan, Gotenks, Vegeta, Piccolo, Krillin, Tien, Yamcha, and Buu--hitting her all at once with their strongest attacks, while in Freiza's story mode it's Friza, Cell, and Goku with the power limiter inthe game, that justified the level system and the power creep, removed so they were at full power doing the same.)

And I'm pretty sure FighterZ continuity is the only time from Z-on where a combo attack was employed and actually worked and defeated a fighter of consequence.

[Lemmy]

And I'm pretty sure FighterZ continuity is the only time from Z-on where a combo attack was employed and actually worked and defeated a fighter of consequence.

Well... Not really, but not too far off either.

There was Goku and Piccolo against Raditz... And the whole fight against Vegeta. If anyone were not there, that would've been the end of Earth. Even Yajirobe was a critical part of the fight! And if we want to be really generous with the definition of "combo attack", there was the final kame-hame-ha against Cell, which Gohan seemingly wouldn't have been able to pull off without Goku's encouragement. If we count fusions, the only reason Vegetto didn't defeat Majin Buu is because he didn't want to, and was intentionally absorbed to free his friends. Later on, Vegeta managed to give Goku enough time to throw his Genki Dama.

[Anteros]

Not quite.

You're not out of the Tournament until you're disqualified or physically knocked out of the Ring--the Grand Priest explicitly said that knokcing an opponent out didn't count unless you picked the unconscious person up and tossed them off the edge.

that's an oddly specific rule.

Conclusion: Frieza is out cold on a piece of rubble and everyone forgot about the "knocked out" rule, so when Goku manages to overpower Jiren but not knock him out of bounds, Universe 7 will win by having more people still in the ring.

Plausible. Also plausible that he'll blast Goku and Jiren out together. Or maybe Jiren wins and Goku weakened him enough for Frieza to finish him. The only thing I'm sure of is that Frieza will be in the ring at the end, and we'll get at least one more "ohohohoho" moment from him.

[deuterio12]

No.

Noooo.

Freeza's not getting redeemed. Thats ridiculous. Its funny to think about, but seriously: Freeza is kind of the villain that any future Dragon Ball thing needs. They are not going to let him become a hero, because we've already have a cast of heroes growing way too large, you need some villainy around to keep people from wondering why everyone does just gang up on the villain en masse and defeat him, and we've reached the logical limits of the multiverse, with Whis outright stating that we've come Zen-Oh, the one above all, and now fighting in a limitless void just to avoid destroying anything else.

Heh, if nothing else DB knows how to always up the scales beyond simple logic.

And Freeza's already fighting with team hero. They're all forming a bond. There's no turning back now!

And we've seen Freeza get another freeza as a potential lover. His name was Frost. Look what he did to HIM. Guy is erased now, and not from his universe failing, but from trolling him so hard he said "screw the rules I'm attacking you!" and got erased for the violation. Freeza don't care for even another version of himself, there is no Bulma in the world that will fix that. Freeza being evil is so built into the Dragon Ball fanbase by now, that its simply a bad idea to mess with that now, the opportunity has passed, and Freeza has had too many chances that he threw away.

It's opposites that attract each other, not equals. Bulma is not a fighter, she can't ki her way out of a paper bag, and she ended up healing and winning Vegeta's heart. Similarly Chichi is technically a fighter, but compared to Goku she may as well be Bulma (Chichi can't even do any fancy ki either), yet she was the one who managed to get Goku to (kinda) settle down and start a family too. And although those have been enduring relationships, we see all the time how their personalities clash, in particular Chichi wanting Gohan to be an academic while Goku wants another warrior, and that's part of true love.

But meeting somebody that looks just like you and thinks just like you and wants to do things exactly like you, well that's competition and survival of the fittest. Freeza endineering the end out of his alternate dimension twin with no remorse is just like Goku beating the crap out of Black Goku with no remorse. There can be only one!

Which is exactly why Freeza is NEEDED.

The Angels are not going to become evil any time soon. Zen-Oh is hax raxxorz and wipes out universes without even being a fighter, but is a child and innocent. The grand Priest is too neutral to be a villain.

The only surviving evil guy right now is Freeza, and the only one with any motivation to keep getting stronger to kill everyone to take power for himself. He is the exactly the guy who would want to get back to being an all-crushing big bad.

DB has exactly zero problems with pulling new villains out of nowhere that happen to be super strong. That's actually pretty much how DBZ rolls. Vegeta defeated? Here comes Frieza! Frieza defeated? Meet the androids! Androids defeated? Buu would like to battle exterminate all humans but mr. Satan!

And just like Vegeta, the androids and Buu ended up becoming best buddies with Goku. Piccollo fits that too.

It's many big universes and time travel is in the cards too. You can bet somewhere some new super vilain is brewing. Even if the angels don't go evil (and we've already seen a god's apprentice go wild), there is still a lot of power space to fill between the current cast and them, and the angels already showed they're pretty happy standing by the sidelines, and trying to call the help of the god of everything will probably just end with your own universe vaporized.

Like, imagine if somebody combined android tech with Buu magic.

(please bring Androind 21 to the anime please)

[Douglas]

Crunchyroll really needs to upgrade their peak bandwidth. This isn't the first time they've given me nothing but errors right when a new Super episode is released.

[Lord Raziere]

Heh, if nothing else DB knows how to always up the scales beyond simple logic.

And Freeza's already fighting with team hero. They're all forming a bond. There's no turning back now!

Do you think this is funny? Its not. Not cool. Stop it.

[Rater202]

Obviously, Frieza is going to pull a reverse piccolo and realize that he's actually starting to like the Monkeys and spell everything good about him, which will then form Good Frieza.

Then they'll Mafuba Original Frieza and he'll escape sometime later to be a villain again in Dragon Ball whatever comes after Super.

[deuterio12]

Do you think this is funny? Its not. Not cool. Stop it.

Would you rather DB becomes "Frieza does evil thing, Goku beats him but lets him escape or puts him in low security prison, rinse and repeat" forever in a neverending ocean of stagnation?

When we could instead have Android 21 or somebody else fresh provide new and interesting challenges?

Obviously, Frieza is going to pull a reverse piccolo and realize that he's actually starting to like the Monkeys and spell everything good about him, which will then form Good Frieza.

Then they'll Mafuba Original Frieza and he'll escape sometime later to be a villain again in Dragon Ball whatever comes after Super.

That would work too.

[Xihirli]

Spoiler: Episode 130

Show

Okay this is what I've been missing.
This is the Goku I've been missing since he sacrificed himself to stop Cell from destroying the planet, since he transformed in response to the death of his best friend. The Goku who cares about his friends, not just a good fight.

MISTER Perfect Ultra Instinct Super Saiyan Beyond Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Full Power Goku

[Lord Raziere]

Would you rather DB becomes "Frieza does evil thing, Goku beats him but lets him escape or puts him in low security prison, rinse and repeat" forever in a neverending ocean of stagnation?

When we could instead have Android 21 or somebody else fresh provide new and interesting challenges?

Would you rather have it become nothing but a redeem-fest with no good fights or good deaths to keep things from becoming stupid?

I like redemptions yes, but it has a place. Freeza isn't that place. I'd hate to see a villain like him being redeemed. Not on a show like this. If we want a good freeza, just show more people of his race being good and let Freeza be Freeza.

21 on the other hand is a villain they SHOULD redeem. because the end of her arc in Fighter Z was POINTLESS. Why make a good and evil one if they're just both going to die anyways?

and I don't think Freeza has a good part of him to split off from. I'd think we'd see good in him by now, and we still haven't.