Dragon Ball Super II: Orange Hillbilly Dooms World... Again.

[Lord Raziere]

I'm aware that's my opinion but thanks for reminding me. Its also the opinion of a fair majority of the fandom to one degree or another.

Thats just your opinion that its the majority, from what I've seen a lot of people like them. So, you have no leg to stand on making that claim.

[Devonix]

I think it simply would have been better to just introduce them already knowing about the transformations. No need to really explain it. They're from another universe. They had adventures just like our heroes did. We don't need to know how they got this strong, they just are.

They wanted them weak enough that we could get some fun training and mentorship stuff with them but strong enough to put up a fight. You can't have it both ways. Either have them too weak to be a threat, or don't have them a students for our characters but strong enough to fight them.

[chainer1216]

I for one am with Raziere, i think the U6 saiyans are the most interesting thing about this arc.

[Lord Raziere]

I for one am with Raziere, i think the U6 saiyans are the most interesting thing about this arc.

I know right?

I mean look at everything we have in comparison:
-U2: magical girl/beauty/love universe. unfortunately they never got past being any more substantial than that magical girl parody, and now they're just a running joke with no serious fangs to back it up
-U3: the robot/smarts/science universe. Should be more interesting right? I mean c'mon, should be a great moment to showcase a bunch of androids and such that are far more advanced than anything Gero could make, but nope, its just a bunch of silly super-robot-esque robots controlled by a single guys cane, some goo guy and a space policeman trying to do a parody that at least three other people or groups did far better before him in just Dragon Ball alone.
-U4. who by now consists of two people who are too small to see and some other person that I can't even remember. Whats U4's schtick in general? I dunno, they're all underhanded and green? cause thats all I remember of them, they're that forgettable.
-U6: we have an opportunity to showcase U6 Namekians as well! they're currently two generic guys who have made absolutely no progress against Gohan or Piccolo, yeah real impressive
-U7: should be in more dire straits, but nope. they're cruising easy street because they still have 7 members, so they're currently winning, meaning there is no tension for whether they could even POSSIBLY get erased.
-U9: Erased, because making sure an entire Universe gets the Yamcha Treatment is more important than writing them well!
-U10: Erased, because making sure an entire Universe gets the Hercule Treatment is more important than writing them well!
-U11: a team that consists of a Sentai parody that the Ginyu Force did better, purple kitty Flash, Toppo whose "character development" was a throwaway line about how they need to do everything to survive rather than hold to justice but y'know, didn't actually change all that much, and Jiren, who has absolutely no personality to back up his massive strength, so he is just completely silent, because thats all Jiren really is: a REEEEEAAAALLLYYYY strong guy.

-Ultra Instinct: Yes. U6 Saiyans are more interesting than Ultra-Instinct, why? Because we all KNOW Goku. This is just what he does. He gets beat up, he gets a new power up, he fights the Newest Strongest Guy Ever, big deal. None of its going to matter the next time a new villain shows up and he has to go even further beyond than that and Ultra-Instinct is tossed aside for the next new power up thats "in" this season, so its not really interesting at all. all thats changed is that we're doing eyes rather hair colors.

-Zenos: not interesting, because at this point its clear that they will just allow anything as long as its cool, and are just inane commentators at this point.
-High Priest: hasn't done anything villainous yet, or anything of note at all. not interesting.

-Freeza: how are U6 Saiyans more interesting than this guy? because we know what he is going to do! he is going to pull something eventually and is just biding his time until he does, sure he is messing around with people but.....thats just what Freeza does. he is not actually unpredictable, because we KNOW he is just an evil guy through and through and whatever he is going to pull won't be good for anyone.
-Master Roshi: oh yeah, stupid pervert is played to be a badass far more than he should be, yawn. like, I just didn't find him all that great. the worst part is he got two episodes to shine and Krillin and Tien only got one which they both fell out in the same episodes they shined, all so that they can play exposition/commentary squad.

What do the U6 Saiyans have that none of these others do? an actual story arc, actual meaningful character interaction, character development, and a payoff of them going through that they did with fusing into Kefla! even Cabba got the most interesting development with Vegeta when they promised to each other to revive each other's universes! as well as achieving SS2 on his own!

I mean there is so many ways they could've made U2 or U3 better than what they are, y'know, actually interesting, and maybe U2 will be more interesting and effective in the next episode, but overall those two universes are wasted potential. U9 and U10 are wasted potential, U4 is currently three people I barely remember or don't know, U11 is Jiren The Really Strong Guy and his two lackeys, Ultra Instinct is just another upgrade, U7 is too ahead to feel like they're in danger, and the gods are currently comedic spectators represented by two children who are impressed by anything shiny.

Is it any wonder that I consider the U6 Saiyans as the most interesting part of this arc?

[Xihirli]

Yes because Hit was in this and Hit is great.

It's not mindless fangirlism if I'm aware of it.

#HitTheInfallible

[Lord Raziere]

Yes because Hit was in this and Hit is great.

It's not mindless fangirlism if I'm aware of it.

#HitTheInfallible

Hit had interesting moments.

Unfortunately, moments were all he had. then he got kicked out. unfortunately "was" is the operating term for "Yes because Hit was in this and Hit is great.". much like "Was" is the operating term for "Kale and Caulifla was in the tournament".

U6 was most interesting universe, because Hit and U6 saiyans. now its just going to be erased.

[Xihirli]

If U6 is erased, all that does is confirm that the characters will be un-erased at the end. Toei isn't going to remove so many fan favorites.
I think all of the people in the universes might just be brought into U7, though. Bring back the people, but not necessarily the universes. That would be less predictable, and is the only payoff I can think of for the "28 planets" bit.
Seriously, there was a Galactic Empire two arcs ago. And there is a Galactic Patrol. And there is an Intergalactic Delivery Service Monoka works for. These are not things that you have with only 28 sapient-life-having planets.

[Lord Raziere]

If U6 is erased, all that does is confirm that the characters will be un-erased at the end. Toei isn't going to remove so many fan favorites.
I think all of the people in the universes might just be brought into U7, though. Bring back the people, but not necessarily the universes. That would be less predictable, and is the only payoff I can think of for the "28 planets" bit.
Seriously, there was a Galactic Empire two arcs ago. And there is a Galactic Patrol. And there is an Intergalactic Delivery Service Monoka works for. These are not things that you have with only 28 sapient-life-having planets.

Y'know whats a more logical explanation? Supreme Kai is very ignorant about the state of his own universe, logical, since he is an inexperienced kai who has been sitting on his behind not doing anything to improve it ever since Buu killed his family predecessors.

and yeah its not really "less predictable" if everyone has already predicted it. I hear that theory being thrown around a lot in the community, and Toriyama's knee-jerk reaction to fan anything is to say "lets do the opposite, because I'm a contrarian."

fortunately, your right about the Toei thing. they are NOT going to get rid of Hit, or the U6 saiyans. they're too MARKETING! I can also see Ribrianne, Jiren, Ganos, and so on having marketability, I mean Jiren is already in a videogame, Hit is in a videogame, I won't be surprised if Kale someday ends up being put into a videogame to face Broly or to replace Broly, I think its safe to say they're not going anywhere. mostly because this tournament roster by itself could make an entire DBS fighting game, I mean for so long Dragon Ball videogames has had to work with filling its rosters with characters like Cui or saibamen or whatever, but now they have options to like, put in so many people from these universes that you can just get rid of things like that and show the highlight characters that are actually interesting instead.

[Dragonus45]

I know right?

I mean look at everything we have in comparison:
-U2: magical girl/beauty/love universe. unfortunately they never got past being any more substantial than that magical girl parody, and now they're just a running joke with no serious fangs to back it up

They also have plenty of people left and at least one or two more more focus episodes to go. Either way what we have gotten is still more interesting then back tingles.

-U3: the robot/smarts/science universe. Should be more interesting right? I mean c'mon, should be a great moment to showcase a bunch of androids and such that are far more advanced than anything Gero could make, but nope, its just a bunch of silly super-robot-esque robots controlled by a single guys cane, some goo guy and a space policeman trying to do a parody that at least three other people or groups did far better before him in just Dragon Ball alone.

Pretty clearly just there for fodder, gotten some good jokes out. Still better then back tingles.

-U4. who by now consists of two people who are too small to see and some other person that I can't even remember. Whats U4's schtick in general? I dunno, they're all underhanded and green? cause thats all I remember of them, they're that forgettable.

Personally the invisible men bit is fairly interesting as a mystery and several of their fighters seemed to have a theme of being tricky fighters. Still more interesting then back tingles.

-U6: we have an opportunity to showcase U6 Namekians as well! they're currently two generic guys who have made absolutely no progress against Gohan or Piccolo, yeah real impressive

Hit was super interesting and watch and had a nice little arc about functionality in a team as opposed to solo work. Cabba has a nice quick arc into SS2 helping to cement his dynamic with Vegeta and adding a lot to vegeta just being more interesting then Goku since Battle of the Gods. Kale is Broly done right with some real personality outside of punch mode and a much better, if still goofy in a good way, reason for letting her unyielding rage out. All of which is better then back tingles.

-U7: should be in more dire straits, but nope. they're cruising easy street because they still have 7 members, so they're currently winning, meaning there is no tension for whether they could even POSSIBLY get erased.

There was never tension U7 would lose. Ever. From the moment this concept was introdu it has been clear that the real tension is how the genocide of multiple universes would be avoided or not. Also what with the extra lead in the U7 crew got they have been far more interesting overall then anyone else. Back tingles aren't even close.

-U9: Erased, because making sure an entire Universe gets the Yamcha Treatment is more important than writing them well!

Everyone is someone's Yamcha. And they were enough for the lead in but of the arc with some interesting gimmicks to keep them just relevant enough for a fight with Gohan and Buu. Still more interesting then back tingles.

-U10: Erased, because making sure an entire Universe gets the Hercule Treatment is more important than writing them well!

Had some great jokes, much like Mr Satan, and a rather gut punchy moment against Gohan with the wife and child picture from a doomed world, also like Mr Satan and the dog with Buu.Not an exact comparison but a good one I like it. More interesting then back tingles.

-U11: a team that consists of a Sentai parody that the Ginyu Force did better, purple kitty Flash, Toppo whose "character development" was a throwaway line about how they need to do everything to survive rather than hold to justice but y'know, didn't actually change all that much, and Jiren, who has absolutely no personality to back up his massive strength, so he is just completely silent, because thats all Jiren really is: a REEEEEAAAALLLYYYY strong guy.

This is less a parody then the concept played straight. Jiren himself is still something of a mystery but how he had handled himself and a few of the things mentioned about him paint an picture interesting enough that I at least am excited for whatever episode tosses out his backstory. Still better then back tingles.

-Ultra Instinct: Yes. U6 Saiyans are more interesting than Ultra-Instinct, why? Because we all KNOW Goku. This is just what he does. He gets beat up, he gets a new power up, he fights the Newest Strongest Guy Ever, big deal. None of its going to matter the next time a new villain shows up and he has to go even further beyond than that and Ultra-Instinct is tossed aside for the next new power up thats "in" this season, so its not really interesting at all. all thats changed is that we're doing eyes rather hair colors.

Ultra Instinct at least has the benefit of calling back to some ideas that have been present since Dragon Ball about empty mind stuff, follows up a thread planted in Revival of F for what looks like some actual intentional foreshadowing for once in Toriyama's life and the idea that Goku and Vegeta are starting to genuinly approach hard limits of how strong they can really become and that eating your wheaties and lifting just isn't going to cut it for them anymore. Which is even more interesting because it means there starts being room for more people to catch up. Also no back tingles for this form, so still better then back tingles in that point alone.

-Zenos: not interesting, because at this point its clear that they will just allow anything as long as its cool, and are just inane commentators at this point.

Funny meta joke about fandom is funny. Also Zeno is clearly more a plot device then an actual characters. And if they are the worst parts of the DB fandom then Caulifla is the worst parts of the franchise given flesh. Tied with back tingles.

-High Priest: hasn't done anything villainous yet, or anything of note at all. not interesting.

Im surprised people really looks so deeply into such a minor character. He will probably be important later but for now he is just background. Back tingles finds its second tie. Or perhaps not, he is boring but at least he isn't an insult that wasted the first female super saiyan.

-Freeza: how are U6 Saiyans more interesting than this guy? because we know what he is going to do! he is going to pull something eventually and is just biding his time until he does, sure he is messing around with people but.....thats just what Freeza does. he is not actually unpredictable, because we KNOW he is just an evil guy through and through and whatever he is going to pull won't be good for anyone.

Yea but he is always delightful to watch as he goes about his business. Still should have been Cell, still better then back tingles.

-Master Roshi: oh yeah, stupid pervert is played to be a badass far more than he should be, yawn. like, I just didn't find him all that great. the worst part is he got two episodes to shine and Krillin and Tien only got one which they both fell out in the same episodes they shined, all so that they can play exposition/commentary squad.

Ah yes, getting to watch a well choreographed episode emphasizing the arcs theme about techniques and skill alongside the one about breaking ones limits alongside a heart wrenching climax that made the entire fandom tear up a little. Clearly less interesting then back tingles. Also Tien and Krilljn got several episodes on the way in, even if I would have preferred to see more Krilljn and 18.

What do the U6 Saiyans have that none of these others do? an actual story arc, actual meaningful character interaction, character development, and a payoff of them going through that they did with fusing into Kefla! even Cabba got the most interesting development with Vegeta when they promised to each other to revive each other's universes! as well as achieving SS2 on his own!

Cabba having such a great arc just emphasizes how meaningless Caulifla is. And in general the decision to be as strong as Vegeta but have literally no unlocked forms was a good idea at the time but not foreword thinking. The idea he could be so far almong but never have faced the kind of battle to push him over that edge has a few ways it could happen but never really got explained and now we are paying for it, in back tingles. ITS NOT EVEN THE CORRECT BLOODY CHAKRA POINT FOR ANGER

[Starwulf]

I for one am with Raziere, i think the U6 saiyans are the most interesting thing about this arc.

I'll have to disagree. I hate Kale and Caulifla both. "Oooh, tingly" "Oooh, now I"m SSJ2". "Oooh, now I'm fused and stronger then SSJ Blue". People complain so much about Goku getting unfair power-ups all the time, well Kale/Caulifla/Kefla are literally 10x worse. Hell, even Goten/Trunks didn't get SSJ that damn easily, they trained all the time with each other, Gohan, and Vegeta(well, pretty sure only Trunks trained with Vegeta). Yeah, they got it by the time they were like 8 or whatever, but they did train, and train hard for it, and had been exposed to it many, many times. OTOH, Caulifla see's it once, asks a single question as to how it feels, then instantly gets it. Then when she sees Goku go SSJ2, literally figures it out almost as fast. Complete and utter B.S. and entirely ruined any idea of liking them.

Now Hit...I love Hit. He's a 1,000 year old being who has fought and trained for a very long time. Yes, he got an insane power-up during his fight with Goku during the U6/U7 tournament arc, but that at least came because he had just literally never had a need(and thus never tried) to improve his time-skip. It's easy to reason that with his need being so great, coupled with his vast experience, that he would be able to improve it on the fly. It was likely there for the taking for a very long time, he just never noticed.

I'm still personally an Android 17 fanboy at the moment. During ALL of this insanity, he has never once shown even a bit of hesitation or fear. Just calmly flying around the battlefield, attempting to pick off other opponents, and saving his sister. I'm seriously wondering just how big of a boost in his power he's gotten since he originally appeared back in DBZ. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised(and am honestly rooting for) if he ends up being at least as powerful as Goku's SSJ Blue with KaioKenx20, and maybe even a little stronger. Would love for him to win the tournament by virtue of his strength + intelligence, ie: Realizes he can't handle Jiren, and just bides his time waiting for someone else to take him out, then eliminates everyone else(assuming of course Goku and Frieza both get knocked out shortly before the tournament ends).

Ultra Instinct at least has the benefit of calling back to some ideas that have been present since Dragon Ball about empty mind stuff, follows up a thread planted in Revival of F for what looks like some actual intentional foreshadowing for once in Toriyama's life and the idea that Goku and Vegeta are starting to genuinly approach hard limits of how strong they can really become and that eating your wheaties and lifting just isn't going to cut it for them anymore. Which is even more interesting because it means there starts being room for more people to catch up. Also no back tingles for this form, so still better then back tingles in that point alone.

I agree with everything you said in your post, but I really like this line of thought the most. I never thought about it, but Ultra Instincts could be the hard limit(and possibly the lead-in into the end of DBS and Dragon Ball anything entirely) for Goku/Vegeta. I mean, there really isn't much else you can do once you hit the stuff that not even all the Destroyers have mastered.

The only thing I can see happening that would bump their power is possibly the ability to combine Ultra-Instinct with their SSJ Blue powers, thus allowing Goku and Vegeta to surpass not only the Destroyers, but their Angels as well, and possibly even the High Priest. Sadly, I don't think it's possible to exceed or even match the power that Zeno possesses. He seems like he is just literally "THE GOD" for the Dragon Ball Universe. Like, the final and top of the Heirarchy God. Snaps his fingers and entire universes are obliterated. I imagine if someone tried to attack him it wouldn't even matter, he likely has some permanent, completely unbreakable defense in place that stops any and all attacks.

Still, even if they did allow Ultra Instincts to be combined with Blue, I still feel it heralds the beginning of the end of the series. Maybe a few arcs involving possibly traveling to the other universes(maybe/hopefully?) that haven't been shown, uncovering some nefarious plot by the High Priest who wants to somehow steal Zeno's power for himself through some absurd, ancient arcane ritual. It succeeding, partially anyways(likely interrupted before it can complete) and leaving the High Priest still vulnerable to harm. Maybe even having Zeno and the High Priest killed, thus giving the 12 universes free reign over themselves, with no higher power interfering and deciding what their worth is compared to the other universes. Leading to mostly universal peace.

Edit: Also, Cell would have been absolutely amazing. He's at least well-spoken/mannered, has considerably more intelligence and cunning(Frieza is just so obvious as to what his intentions are), and given his biology, probably has a power ceiling that far exceeds Frieza's own. Would have been awesome to see him fight in the tournament. I honestly don't think I'd expect a backstabbing from him, I feel his Saiyan biology would just be to excited/happy to have such incredibly powerful opponents to fight. Especially if he was allowed to siphon some of their energy off, LOL.

[Quiver]

Eh. I think Kale and Caulifla are fine.

I guess, so far as building up the super saiyan thing goes... the alternative argument might be 'why make a big deal about it'? I mean...

Yes, it's a female super saiyan, a thing the franchise has never had ever. That's a big thing. Except...
We've had super saiyans. We've had super saiyans before. Making Caulifla's super saiyan transformation "just another super saiyan" means that she isn't going to be pigeon holed as 'the first female super saiyan'. She's Caulifla, who is a super saiyan. Who just happens to be female.

(The bigger offender here might be Kale, who is the first super saiyan to have her own special and unique super saiyan transformation)

Anyway... not that it holds much weight, but I think those two are fine. Dragonball isn't a show which has exceptionally deep characters, especially not when they are introduced. Assuming Kale, Caulifla and the rest of U6 are going to survive the tournament of power* I don't see why they wouldn't be able to get more development later on.

(Heck, if we're talking 'characters who transformed right away', we could look at future Trunks. His whole 'saga' was about establishing him as 'the badass dude from the future who is here to turn into a super saiyan and eat gum, and he's all out of gum'. His character didn't get depth until the Android/Cell saga, when his relationship with Vegeta, his inexperience and so forth came to the fore.)

So... eh. People have different opinions, I guess?

*U6 is gonna survive. Is this even a question? I don't know how they'll manage it, since Vegeta's wish seems too obvious, but they, at least, are making it through this arc.

[Mato]

I for one am with Raziere, i think the U6 saiyans are the most interesting thing about this arc.

And I agree with everyone else, they suck.

Kale is also a failed Broly and her purpose, if anything, was to explain Broly to everyone who missed the point the first time: SSj is based on rage and LSSj/SSj:Berserker is what happens if to become so enraged to lose rational sense. But she quickly fails in this because Caulifla & Kale are terrible characters that gain super forms instantly as a substitution for character development.

Now Hit...I love Hit.

Hit is the success that Jiren won't be despite both being presented the same.

[Dragonus45]

Eh. I think Kale and Caulifla are fine.

I guess, so far as building up the super saiyan thing goes... the alternative argument might be 'why make a big deal about it'? I mean...

Yes, it's a female super saiyan, a thing the franchise has never had ever. That's a big thing. Except...
We've had super saiyans. We've had super saiyans before. Making Caulifla's super saiyan transformation "just another super saiyan" means that she isn't going to be pigeon holed as 'the first female super saiyan'. She's Caulifla, who is a super saiyan. Who just happens to be female.

It's that the transformation felt so cheap. Goku had finished an entire arcs worth of getting his ass beaten followed by his best friend being brutally blown to bits right next to him in what he thought was a moment of triumph. ( And Trunks crying over Gohan's corpse is one one of the most intense and powerful moments in the franchise.) The first time we see SS2 with Gohan it's an powerful moment of him letting go of his control and peaceful nature to let out his saiyan rage and deliberately kill someone l. Cabba was totally overwhelmed by a literal living legend of his people who after beating him like a read headed alternate universe child swore to end his entire race. Firsts matter and something this scene mattered. Caulifla just had some back tingles and the moment had zero weight and zero power. Then she just went SS2 like it was nothing and I realized we had just tossed aside Cabbafor this
-_-

[Quiver]

It's that the transformation felt so cheap. Goku had finished an entire arcs worth of getting his ass beaten followed by his best friend being brutally blown to bits right next to him in what he thought was a moment of triumph. ( And Trunks crying over Gohan's corpse is one one of the most intense and powerful moments in the franchise.) The first time we see SS2 with Gohan it's an powerful moment of him letting go of his control and peaceful nature to let out his saiyan rage and deliberately kill someone l. Cabba was totally overwhelmed by a literal living legend of his people who after beating him like a read headed alternate universe child swore to end his entire race. Firsts matter and something this scene mattered. Caulifla just had some back tingles and the moment had zero weight and zero power. Then she just went SS2 like it was nothing and I realized we had just tossed aside Cabbafor this
-_-

Yup, that's the Goten/Trunks phenomenon; the ancient power and legend of the saiyan race, reduced to a child's plaything.

And I won't dispute any of those transformations, because... yeah, future!Trunks? Goku? Gohan? Cabba? Those are all pretty damn good, to say the least.

On the other hand, we have the aforementioned Goten and Trunks, and Vegeta's "I just so angry that I just sorta did it. Also, my heart is pure - pure evil!" which doesn't measure up.

Now... might it have been cool if they went a different direction? Yeah. Actually, if the U6 saiyans couldn't turn super, or if they had their own unique tricks and gimmicks to compensate for a lack of super saiyan, that might have been a fun thing to explore.

But... saiyans go super saiyan. That's just 'a thing' at this point in the franchise. As soon as Cabba showed up, people were wondering 'when will he go super saiyan'. A super saiyan transformation is the crescendo of a characters arc, and I don't think you could fit that into the Tournament of Power's story structure, so getting past that part and instead focusing on the character dynamic/future story options seems a fair trade off for me.

(I suppose they could have had Kale's first Berserker transformation be a moment in the Tourament of Power... except that might have overshadowed Jiren as the Big Bad they want to push for this arc)

[Future Sword]

Lol @ people expecting major character arcs within a 48-minute time frame. Maybe we get some minor improvements from a few characters, but that's it.

[lord_khaine]

I'm still personally an Android 17 fanboy at the moment. During ALL of this insanity, he has never once shown even a bit of hesitation or fear. Just calmly flying around the battlefield, attempting to pick off other opponents, and saving his sister. I'm seriously wondering just how big of a boost in his power he's gotten since he originally appeared back in DBZ. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised(and am honestly rooting for) if he ends up being at least as powerful as Goku's SSJ Blue with KaioKenx20, and maybe even a little stronger. Would love for him to win the tournament by virtue of his strength + intelligence, ie: Realizes he can't handle Jiren, and just bides his time waiting for someone else to take him out, then eliminates everyone else(assuming of course Goku and Frieza both get knocked out shortly before the tournament ends).

Do you honestly believe that Android 17 were stronger than Goku at the start of the tournament? Or is it just wishful thinking for your neglected fan favorite, who like everyone else has been overshadowed by Goku?

[Rater202]

(The bigger offender here might be Kale, who is the first super saiyan to have her own special and unique super saiyan transformation)

1: Brolly did it first.
2: Super Saiyan Berserker is literally Legendary Super Saiyan with a different name. Everything about it is identical to Brolly's unique transformation and they even reused some of Brolly's animations.

[Gandariel]

Do you honestly believe that Android 17 were stronger than Goku at the start of the tournament? Or is it just wishful thinking for your neglected fan favorite, who like everyone else has been overshadowed by Goku?

Hey, protecting endangered animals is pretty good training!

I also expect 17 to be at least as strong as goku before the tournament.
First, they've set 17 up to be pretty strong, and at least in the same leagues of power as Goku (I think in their spar they were evenly matched, but neither was at 100%?)

Second, it doesn't matter anymore because Goku got another boost. Nobody will care now, since Goku is still the strongest.

Regarding U6 saiyans... I'm not particularly annoyed by the transformations. They're fine, and Caulifla's saiyan-Ness was cool: she's even more excited than Goku about fighting, and her interactions with Goku are nice.

Also, regarding other transformations, I actually think Vegeta's first super saiyan was entirely fitting, and I liked it a lot.
Makes absolute sense that after witnessing Goku he'd disappear and brute-force his way into transforming with sheer stubbornness and pride.

Having him transform in any other way (Trunks or Bulma) would have been less fitting. He could also have unlocked it e.g. in the first fight with 17/18, but he was scripted to lose that, so it wouldn't have carried much weight.

[Dragonus45]

On the other hand, we have the aforementioned Goten and Trunks, and Vegeta's "I just so angry that I just sorta did it. Also, my heart is pure - pure evil!" which doesn't measure up.

I'm known to despise Gotenks so I won't even bother to defend them even if there is at least a little logic to them. The Vegeta thing is interesting though because the manga never showed his moment. That bit with him reaching a point of absolute despair in space when he thought he would die unfulfilled was filler. And I don't even say they have to be full crescendos or anything but even Kales oscillations between demure and rage monster tsundere from hiffle at least had a an arc to it and some amount of effort put in.

[Starwulf]

Do you honestly believe that Android 17 were stronger than Goku at the start of the tournament? Or is it just wishful thinking for your neglected fan favorite, who like everyone else has been overshadowed by Goku?

I think it's a possibility. He matched Goku blow for blow when Goku when Blue during their little spar before the tournament. 17 didn't even lose his "I'm too cool for schooll" appearance the entire time, and we know that when he's getting beat he tends to lose his cool from previous fights. So, it's a possibility, even if it is a small one. But most of it's probably just wishful thinking :)

[Dragonus45]

I think Goku explicitly states that neither he nor 17 are going all out during that sparing match but I'm not sure.

[Lord Raziere]

I don't like back tinglies anymore than you guys. Its just that its such a little thing that I don't really care enough to be angry about it. I mean sure I prefer the actual anger trigger, but c'mon, we already had Goten and Trunks going Super saiyan at like age 8 or so. that was like, what, twenty years ago back when Z was still on air? super saiyan has been pretty small potatoes as a power up for a long time now. so whatever, be angry over a dead horse, I'm going to focus on whats good here, and its not the entire rest of the tournament.

[Mikeavelli]

There was never tension U7 would lose. Ever. From the moment this concept was introdu it has been clear that the real tension is how the genocide of multiple universes would be avoided or not. Also what with the extra lead in the U7 crew got they have been far more interesting overall then anyone else. Back tingles aren't even close.

They did try to create some tension with the comment that U7 was the Universe with the second-lowest average mortal level. It's not clear exactly what that actually means (Since U7 has more god-tier fighters than any other universe, and is winning this thing handily), but it was clearly supposed to mean this was going to be an uphill battle for them.

[Rakaydos]

U7 hasnt lost any fighters who were relevant since the Cell Saga. Lets face it, Krillin, Roshi and Tienshan were filler for the 10 fighter requirement, not serious contenders. The fact that they were able to take at least one fighter down each goes to show that most of the other universes just arnt on U7s level to begin with.

[Starwulf]

They did try to create some tension with the comment that U7 was the Universe with the second-lowest average mortal level. It's not clear exactly what that actually means (Since U7 has more god-tier fighters than any other universe, and is winning this thing handily), but it was clearly supposed to mean this was going to be an uphill battle for them.

Most speculation has been that it means the average level of goodness in the various universes. Which makes sense, there has been so many evil creatures all across the universe, all of which have honed in on Goku and Co. on earth. My guess is the universes that didn't have to compete probably never had the likes of Buu or Frieza, or if they did, they were put down in an instant, either by the Supreme Kai's, or other strong mortals, or a combination of both. They likely have a zero-tolerance policy, the moment something/someone pops up that intends to commit atrocities they are prevented from doing so.

Re: Back Tingles. It's not so much JUST the back tingles, it's the fact that Caulifla literally figured out SSJ just from that, and then SSJ2 just from seeing it. Yeah, neither are a big deal compared to most fighters, but it's just ridiculous that she gets given such a power-up with no effort involved at all. At least Cabba earned both SSJ and SSJ2.

And people can point to Goten and Trunks all they want, but the simple fact is, they were training, almost certainly on a daily basis with the two strongest people on earth, both of whom could go SSJ at the least(and I think Vegeta had SSJ2 by then?), and It's shown at least that Vegeta did not hold back against Trunks and would use SSJ to give his son experience fighting against opponents vastly stronger(and just because he doesn't know how to hold back). Caulifla may have had some training, but she had zero exposure to SSJ before Cabba, and that was less then a minute before she got it.

Kale....I'm ambivalent on Kale. She gets her power-up almost the same way as Caulifla, but it comes at a great cost initially(pure rage, unable to distinguish friend from foe), and she at least gets a bit of plot time to figure out how to control LSSJ, and in a somewhat decent manner at. Still a bit cheap over-all, but more on the line of Goten/Trunks, which is better than Caulifla.

Don't get me wrong though, none of that is taking away from my enjoyment of the tournament. The fight against Kefla was pretty decent, though at no point was I ever rooting for her, I was just happy that she powered up enough to spark Goku's Ultra Instinct again. Looking forward to some of these final fights, and hopefully seeing 17 shine :). I do hope Gohan gets knocked out soon, or is given a chance to truly shine, he just feels so useless still, just like he did back in the Buu arc. I mean, he put up a decent fight against Goku in Blue(though it was obvious Goku was holding back), he has to have a significant amount of power by now, but he has not shown it at all against any of the opponents he's faced. It's honestly felt like he's been at his limit the whole time, which just feels unrealistic.

[Future Sword]

Gohan has always been disappointing. That's his schtick.

[Rakaydos]

Re: Back Tingles. It's not so much JUST the back tingles, it's the fact that Caulifla literally figured out SSJ just from that, and then SSJ2 just from seeing it. Yeah, neither are a big deal compared to most fighters, but it's just ridiculous that she gets given such a power-up with no effort involved at all.

As I recall, Dragonball Goku picked up the kamahameha after seing Roshi perform it exactly once, back in the Emperor Pilaf arc.

[Future Sword]

Saiyans aren't exactly known for unreasonably rapid growth, copying advanced techniques effortlessly, or defying what would normally be impossible.

[Lord Raziere]

As I recall, Dragonball Goku picked up the kamahameha after seing Roshi perform it exactly once, back in the Emperor Pilaf arc.

And Kid Buu AND Perfect Cell did the same with Instant Transmission, which took even Goku a year to learn.

at some point both Krillin and Goku figured out Solar Flare, which is TIEN's technique.

its not even an unexplained thing either, technique mimicry is an actual ability that Goku simply HAS as well as Majin Buu. its simply very good memory and bodily imitation of techniques. Saiyans have crazy high bodily-kinesthetic intelligence. and Goku is high as they come.

Saiyans aren't exactly known for unreasonably rapid growth, copying advanced techniques effortlessly, or defying what would normally be impossible.

actually no, that is EXACTLY what they are known for. Zenkai IS the unreasonably rapid growth. Copying advance techniques is just something Goku DOES. saiyan biology is all about explaining why they can pull stupid shonen tropes out of their butt while humans can't.

[chainer1216]

...and then SSJ2 just from seeing it.

Actually she went SS2 in response to Kale going berserk for the first time.

Not that that changes your point.

My thing with SS, and power ups in general with Dragon Ball, is that only two where handled emotionally and dramatically. Goku going SS for the first time and Gohan going SS2. Every other one, from Goku drinking the sacred water to fight King Piccolo, all the way up to Blue Kaioken was quick and dirty no better than "back tingles". SS has been a "mere childs plaything" for 20ish years.

Besides going off of gohan, goten and trunks we can see that base power level factors into how easy it is to unlock SS. Cabba unlocked SS reletively easily because he was so strong as it was, and he specifically went to Califla because she was stronger than him.