RWBY IX: Fractured Fairy Tales

[Reddish Mage]

I feel stopping a giant robot punch is more impressive than stopping a truck, otherwise why bother with the robot punch when you could just drive trucks at everyone.

Also, I highly disagree on that first point. A show can show the subtle difference between those two things very clearly, they just need to know HOW to do so.

Yang doesn’t count because she showed that absurd strength after Penny.

Also, I suppose Yang counts among the people that has showed this next level of strength, since the feats of strength and hardiness in the Paladin fight was never repeated before or since.

Yang and CFVY show they are on another level in more traditional anime-style type ways. I don’t see how you can’t recognize that Amber and Penny also are distinct, what else would they need to do?

[Lethologica]

I'm not sure there's even a single difference in RWBY that is as visually slight as the real-life difference between a college all-star and a pro (to say nothing of the Olympic athletes who are also college stars). Maybe Pyrrha vs. Mercury, and that's with Pyrrha holding back.

Pretty much all cartoon and animated media are founded on exaggeration, not just anime. The visual cues are different, but not the underlying characteristic. And anime has many gradations of exaggeration.

I sense more than a little...trepidation? Disdain? Hostility?...towards anime visuals in general and animesque features in RWBY, in particular, so I'll stop there.

[LaZodiac]

Yang doesn’t count because she showed that absurd strength after Penny.

Also, I suppose Yang counts among the people that has showed this next level of strength, since the feats of strength and hardiness in the Paladin fight was never repeated before or since.

Yang and CFVY show they are on another level in more traditional anime-style type ways. I don’t see how you can’t recognize that Amber and Penny also are distinct, what else would they need to do?

With Amber my only concern was that they hyped up the powers to be like, this god power that if people knew existed would destroy the peace of the entire world. And then she does something not even half as impressive as anyone with actual fight training.

My only really issue with the Penny scene is that everyone in universe acts like it's strange what Penny did, when that doesn't feel like it fits at all. Ruby at the very least shouldn't of been shocked by it.

[Mechalich]

Pretty much all cartoon and animated media are founded on exaggeration, not just anime. The visual cues are different, but not the underlying characteristic. And anime has many gradations of exaggeration.

I sense more than a little...trepidation? Disdain? Hostility?...towards anime visuals in general and animesque features in RWBY, in particular, so I'll stop there.

Many of the traditional methods used to produce fights in anime don't work well for the animation technique used to produce RWBY. Because the way characters move is so fundamentally different the kinetics of combat needs to change or it looks really, really weird (certainly early experiments in 3d computer animation with anime show this - Vexille comes to mind). The way fights are done in RWBY is much closer to the way fights are done in anime that uses a similar animation technique - for instance the way the Electrofisher armor combat is done in BLAME! or some of Sado's paramilitary assaults in Ajin - though RWBY does tend to cut faster and utilizes fairly simplified backgrounds in most scenes to increase contrast.

[Anyr]

With Amber my only concern was that they hyped up the powers to be like, this god power that if people knew existed would destroy the peace of the entire world. And then she does something not even half as impressive as anyone with actual fight training.

In hindsight, it’d make sense for that hype to be a lie. Maybe Ozpin and co. just didn’t want Pyrrha to know about the relics: So they invented another reason for the Maidens to be kept secret. That way, their newest pawn could be controlled with a minimum of leaked intel.

I don’t actually think that that’s canon, though. The inconsistency is far more likely to be the result of sloppy writing.

[Reddish Mage]

I'm not sure there's even a single difference in RWBY that is as visually slight as the real-life difference between a college all-star and a pro (to say nothing of the Olympic athletes who are also college stars). Maybe Pyrrha vs. Mercury, and that's with Pyrrha holding back.

Pretty much all cartoon and animated media are founded on exaggeration, not just anime. The visual cues are different, but not the underlying characteristic. And anime has many gradations of exaggeration.

I sense more than a little...trepidation? Disdain? Hostility?...towards anime visuals in general and animesque features in RWBY, in particular, so I'll stop there.

Anime is great but RWBY should not be attacked because it fails to uphold anime tropes and it shouldn’t be expected to adhere to shounen formula or output shounen-style combat.

First of all, because typical shounen formula deserves to be messed with a bit for variety sake. Secondly and more importantly, because RWBY has a distinct visual and storytelling style that doesn’t work when you try to force anime-type expectations on it.

With Amber my only concern was that they hyped up the powers to be like, this god power that if people knew existed would destroy the peace of the entire world. And then she does something not even half as impressive as anyone with actual fight training.

My only really issue with the Penny scene is that everyone in universe acts like it's strange what Penny did, when that doesn't feel like it fits at all. Ruby at the very least shouldn't of been shocked by it.

Amber powers are hyped as being important but they were simply called “magic” and were not hyped as necessarily being god of combat powers.

Recall I speculated their power was literally over the seasons and could work to cause climate change and otherwise seariously screw the environment up.

I just want an admission that Amber is incrementally more powerful than say, what RWBJNR showed in combat up until that point (I’ll exempt Yang because of the Paladin stunt and Pyrrha because she was fully implied to be a super-huntress).

Ruby’s look of concern on Penny did seem premature, I can see lots of reason for her to be shocked and concerned but mostly because that is what Penny’s reaction is at what she herself did.

Let’s chalk it up this way. Penny has ample reason to be worried, the exaggerated reaction of the crowd and Ruby was from her hyper-worried perspective.

In hindsight, it’d make sense for that hype to be a lie. Maybe Ozpin and co. just didn’t want Pyrrha to know about the relics: So they invented another reason for the Maidens to be kept secret. That way, their newest pawn could be controlled with a minimum of leaked intel.

I don’t actually think that that’s canon, though. The inconsistency is far more likely to be the result of sloppy writing.

Ozpin’s group said the maiden’s were special and had magic powers that were highly sought after. They had reasons to hold back on the relics (they are, after all, working to keep those a secret even more so than the maidens).

The angle that Ozpin is a manipulative bastard that keeps everything secret to maintain his power over people is an angle that Raven has played up. The guy keeps a lot of secrets but he also has a lot of justification to keep secrets, like the relics that apparently have the power to gift the world to Salem on a silver platter. Most likely the group hides the relics because those are the real WMDs that Salem would readily set off.

Going between Ozpin either being a manipulative bastard or things being a continuity error is stretching the plot in two incompatible and bad ways. Things can be read naturally in a way that makes sense and should be read that way if possible.

[Calemyr]

My only really issue with the Penny scene is that everyone in universe acts like it's strange what Penny did, when that doesn't feel like it fits at all. Ruby at the very least shouldn't of been shocked by it.

Wait... isn't it strange? Normal folk can't do that. Aura alone can't do that (survive the accident, yes, but not stop the truck cold). Maybe Aura and a heavy build like Yatsuhashi's could do it. There are not many semblances that could do that. A damage-charged Yang could do it, sure, but without the rage? Assuming huntsmen (and trainee huntsmen) are a very small percentage of the populace, and that huntsmen with the build or semblance to achieve the stunt are rare, and that the circumstances for them to do so in public are uncommon... the event qualifies as "strange", in that most citizenry will never see something like that out of controlled demonstrations or televised battles. It's very different to see it happen right in front of you, and then it's a relatively petite girl who does it, not even a brawny bruiser like Yang or Nora. Given the circumstances, a few "wow"s and some generalized discussion on the incident isn't out of hand.

Then take Yang vs the Paladin. Everyone but Ruby reacts with worry when Yang gets clocked by the Paladin, but Ruby calms them down saying this is where Yang is at her best - and it sent her flying. Tanking a ton of metal to the face isn't a "normal" thing even for huntsmen of RWBY's supposed caliber. Penny not only endured the impact, she stopped the truck and she did so without being moved, visibly injured (the palms of her hands weren't displayed until later), or showing any serious level of exertion. She wasn't even breathing hard afterwards. Combine that with Penny's weight, which had already caught Ruby off guard when she tried to use her semblance, and it's hard to see how Ruby could avoid being a little flustered and confused.

The event may well be in the range of what this show provides for, but it's still a rare event that took place in front of a populace not used to such thing happening in close proximity to them. I can acccept that this wasn't presented all that well, perhaps, but I don't see the surprise displayed as unwarranted.

[LaZodiac]

Wait... isn't it strange? Normal folk can't do that. Aura alone can't do that (survive the accident, yes, but not stop the truck cold). Maybe Aura and a heavy build like Yatsuhashi's could do it. There are not many semblances that could do that. A damage-charged Yang could do it, sure, but without the rage? Assuming huntsmen (and trainee huntsmen) are a very small percentage of the populace, and that huntsmen with the build or semblance to achieve the stunt are rare, and that the circumstances for them to do so in public are uncommon... the event qualifies as "strange", in that most citizenry will never see something like that out of controlled demonstrations or televised battles. It's very different to see it happen right in front of you, and then it's a relatively petite girl who does it, not even a brawny bruiser like Yang or Nora. Given the circumstances, a few "wow"s and some generalized discussion on the incident isn't out of hand.

Then take Yang vs the Paladin. Everyone but Ruby reacts with worry when Yang gets clocked by the Paladin, but Ruby calms them down saying this is where Yang is at her best - and it sent her flying. Tanking a ton of metal to the face isn't a "normal" thing even for huntsmen of RWBY's supposed caliber. Penny not only endured the impact, she stopped the truck and she did so without being moved, visibly injured (the palms of her hands weren't displayed until later), or showing any serious level of exertion. She wasn't even breathing hard afterwards. Combine that with Penny's weight, which had already caught Ruby off guard when she tried to use her semblance, and it's hard to see how Ruby could avoid being a little flustered and confused.

The event may well be in the range of what this show provides for, but it's still a rare event that took place in front of a populace not used to such thing happening in close proximity to them. I can acccept that this wasn't presented all that well, perhaps, but I don't see the surprise displayed as unwarranted.

"Aura can't do that" is the problem I have with this sentence. Even ignoring the fact that at the time we knew so little about how it works that we could not in any way say that with confidence, so much stuff has happened in the series that's beyond "I stopped a truck" in scale that I find it genuinely unreasonable and ridiculous to say that doing so is "weird".

You're forgetting that Yang does at one point stop the punch of the Paladin. Also, they express concern for Yang BECAUSE she got knocked around like that, but Ruby knows about Yang's aura power that makes her stronger when she takes damage. When Yang stopped the punch later she shows the same level of effort Penny did when stopping the truck.

I'll give you that the crowd might be a little interested or impressed, but I feel like the tone of the scene, of this being some scary dramatic thing that is going to reveal Penny's dark secret, is patently ludicrous. I know if I was in this universe and I saw a kid stop a truck with her bare hand I'd go "wow the Hunters are really impressive" and just kinda roll with it. Though again, like I said above we don't actually know what the limits of Aura even are, so we cannot say for certain if stopping a truck, a regular ass vehicle, is all that impressive. Given that Oobleck can hit a dog with his coffee thermos hard enough to coat said dog on fire and send it at robots with such power that it utterly destroys said robots, I think it's perfectly reasonable to say "stopping a truck aint no thing".

[Calemyr]

"Aura can't do that" is the problem I have with this sentence. Even ignoring the fact that at the time we knew so little about how it works that we could not in any way say that with confidence, so much stuff has happened in the series that's beyond "I stopped a truck" in scale that I find it genuinely unreasonable and ridiculous to say that doing so is "weird".

You're forgetting that Yang does at one point stop the punch of the Paladin. Also, they express concern for Yang BECAUSE she got knocked around like that, but Ruby knows about Yang's aura power that makes her stronger when she takes damage. When Yang stopped the punch later she shows the same level of effort Penny did when stopping the truck.

I'll give you that the crowd might be a little interested or impressed, but I feel like the tone of the scene, of this being some scary dramatic thing that is going to reveal Penny's dark secret, is patently ludicrous. I know if I was in this universe and I saw a kid stop a truck with her bare hand I'd go "wow the Hunters are really impressive" and just kinda roll with it. Though again, like I said above we don't actually know what the limits of Aura even are, so we cannot say for certain if stopping a truck, a regular ass vehicle, is all that impressive. Given that Oobleck can hit a dog with his coffee thermos hard enough to coat said dog on fire and send it at robots with such power that it utterly destroys said robots, I think it's perfectly reasonable to say "stopping a truck aint no thing".

Actually, I explicitly said an empowered Yang could probably do it. Without her rage, Yang got ragdolled through a cement support pillar by the Paladin. Empowered by rage, she no-sells it and then rips it to pieces. With an electric boost, Nora could probably do much the same. Those, however, are our heavy hitters at their peak, however, and both of them have frames with obvious muscle. They are far and away the exceptions, even among the "elite" students we're used to - naturally strong characters with semblances that can augment their power to absurd levels that can ragdoll Hazel or crush Paladins like a soda can, though both of them require a situational buff to do so. Penny is built more like Ruby, however, and didn't have an established semblance to explain the stunt.

As for the "Aura can't do that" bit, well, I can't think of evidence where it has. Aura-enabled people get rag-dolled all the time in the show. When people have been able to resist getting knocked around, it's been because they have superior bulk or martial training, not because of Aura. So far, Aura has been described almost entirely as a defensive and recuperative ability, allowing the kids to be reckless and fearless in training and versus genuinely deadly threats. Sure, they could tell us in the next Chibi that Aura can be used to root yourself into an immovable object and I'd have to accept it, but the evidence so far does not support it as even explicit Aura powerhouses like Jaune get chucked around like comic relief sporting equipment.

And, again, there's a major line to be drawn between huntsmen on the field and your everyday life in Remnant. If the truck incident were to happen, say, in an Anima village where an active defense is needed to drive off Grimm, you'd probably get more reactions like "Cool!" and "Nice.". But this is Vale, a sheltered city with excellent defenses (until the Grimm are riled, obviously). They don't see Grimm outside of TV and related devices. And, while they see huntsmen, they don't see them in action. I know lions exist, for example. I've seen 'em in the zoo. But I'd still be a little surprised (and worried) to see one walking down the street in my home town. It's the difference between "they exist" and "they exist right here, in front of me". The change-up would be jarring.

I'm not saying it's flawless. Very very little of RWBY is flawless, if anything. The reveal itself was pretty stupid, honestly, as Penny being a gynoid was pretty freaking obvious at the end of the first volume. Oh, no! Next you'll be telling me that Lex Luthor is a bad guy! It was, however, a critical reveal for Ruby, as she had to learn the secret somehow and nobody was willing to reveal it willingly, so something had to happen to force the issue. How they did so doesn't strike me as particularly rage-worthy, but that's just my take.

[LaZodiac]

That's fair. I just feel it's stretching things that say, the random swordman in Sun's group can smash the ground into pieces just by stomping but stopping a truck from taken as being very impressive. It's just a thing to me that doesn't fit. I'm not even really MAD at it, it's just really weird to me.

At the very least, like you said, Ruby shouldn't of been weirded out by it.

[Calemyr]

That's fair. I just feel it's stretching things that say, the random swordman in Sun's group can smash the ground into pieces just by stomping but stopping a truck from taken as being very impressive. It's just a thing to me that doesn't fit. I'm not even really MAD at it, it's just really weird to me.

At the very least, like you said, Ruby shouldn't of been weirded out by it.

I wholly agree. The truck thing wasn't special by huntsmen standards. The only difference is that the swordsman did his on a battlefield, while Penny did hers on a city street. The concept of what's out of the ordinary is different in these circumstances.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Again, Bigyang exists. He aint doing anything, and was at least on par with Qrowe given he was part of it.

We don't really have any indication that Bigyang knows anything though, which makes him a poor choice to pick up/escort Amber in case he sees magic being used. We actually have some evidence (not a lot) that he doesn't when Qrow sends Bigyang out of the room to talk to Ruby at the end of Volume 3.

With Amber my only concern was that they hyped up the powers to be like, this god power that if people knew existed would destroy the peace of the entire world. And then she does something not even half as impressive as anyone with actual fight training.

How impressive you find it is subjective..I thought it did an alright job of conveying that Amber was powerful and had abilities other people didn't...but her ability to fight has no bearing on the Maidens being able to destroy peace in the world.

For one, you have concrete and physical proof that magic exists. Its not dust, its not a semblance, and it cannot be explained in much the same way the Grimm can't be. What's more it has existed for quite a long time apparently.

Second, and this is assuming the tale of the Two Brothers is true (I maintain its not), then the Maidens existing is the first bread crumb on a trail that proves, definitively, that gods exist and always have. Remnant doesn't seem like the most spiritual of settings so that's a theological crisis in and of itself right there. However, assuming we just haven't seen those elements, this would also mean that some religion could turn out to be 'right' about the nature of the world but, more importantly, that every other one is wrong with whatever consequences might come from that. That would be even worse than a largely agnostic/athesist society finding out that 'oops, guess we were wrong, gods exist'.

Then you have what they brought up..people jockeying to either control the Maidens or to control their power. And we've only gotten more impressive examples of what Maidens can do as the animation budget has gotten bigger and better. Nevermind the Maidens give access to the relics (and I already have a bad feeling from the Lantern with its 'light of knowledge') and whatever they may be able to do..but considering they relate to such broad and devastating concepts as Creation, Destruction, Knowledge, and Choice and that Salem wants them for some reason and I'd wager they can do very gnarly things.

And lets not forget that knowledge of the Maidens could lead to knowledge about the Wizard and thus Ozpin. The same guy who's been controlling the Huntsmen Academies from behind the scenes from at least the great war and who is implied to be the King of Vale who wrecked everyone's carp to end the war.

...in other words, yeah, even if the Maidens tthemselves don't seem impressive (again, opinion on that), their existence have fairly earth shattering revelations for the world as a whole.

[LaZodiac]

We don't really have any indication that Bigyang knows anything though, which makes him a poor choice to pick up/escort Amber in case he sees magic being used. We actually have some evidence (not a lot) that he doesn't when Qrow sends Bigyang out of the room to talk to Ruby at the end of Volume 3.

How impressive you find it is subjective..I thought it did an alright job of conveying that Amber was powerful and had abilities other people didn't...but her ability to fight has no bearing on the Maidens being able to destroy peace in the world.

For one, you have concrete and physical proof that magic exists. Its not dust, its not a semblance, and it cannot be explained in much the same way the Grimm can't be. What's more it has existed for quite a long time apparently.

Second, and this is assuming the tale of the Two Brothers is true (I maintain its not), then the Maidens existing is the first bread crumb on a trail that proves, definitively, that gods exist and always have. Remnant doesn't seem like the most spiritual of settings so that's a theological crisis in and of itself right there. However, assuming we just haven't seen those elements, this would also mean that some religion could turn out to be 'right' about the nature of the world but, more importantly, that every other one is wrong with whatever consequences might come from that. That would be even worse than a largely agnostic/athesist society finding out that 'oops, guess we were wrong, gods exist'.

Then you have what they brought up..people jockeying to either control the Maidens or to control their power. And we've only gotten more impressive examples of what Maidens can do as the animation budget has gotten bigger and better. Nevermind the Maidens give access to the relics (and I already have a bad feeling from the Lantern with its 'light of knowledge') and whatever they may be able to do..but considering they relate to such broad and devastating concepts as Creation, Destruction, Knowledge, and Choice and that Salem wants them for some reason and I'd wager they can do very gnarly things.

And lets not forget that knowledge of the Maidens could lead to knowledge about the Wizard and thus Ozpin. The same guy who's been controlling the Huntsmen Academies from behind the scenes from at least the great war and who is implied to be the King of Vale who wrecked everyone's carp to end the war.

...in other words, yeah, even if the Maidens tthemselves don't seem impressive (again, opinion on that), their existence have fairly earth shattering revelations for the world as a whole.

Thank you for being the only person to actually comment on my point of Yang's Dad being a valid answer. I feel like given the context of some of the stuff we've seen, Bigyang has to be in on the secret. But that's my interpretation anyway.

While it is all subjective, I feel the fact that Amber's abilities are not shown to actually be all that impressive discounts the idea that it even shows magic is real. I also just find the idea that "magic exists actually" to be pushing believability when horrible shadow monsters that eat suffering and fear exist. Even if they aren't common place and in places like Beacon rarely seen, it's a thing known in this world that people have special soul power that let them fight these huge monsters that eat fear. Magic is like not even half a step away from that.

The religion thing is tricky because like you've said, they've basically never shown us that the world of remnant is or isn't very religious, because it's just not a thing that's come up. I feel like in a world with supernatural stuff like this though it'd be more common to be religious, but that's just me. It's easier to say "see, god exists" when you have actual super powers based on your soul.

The idea that people might control the maidens for their own purpose is a good one, and I'd of liked it more if Ozpin talked about that instead of saying it would upturn civilization as we know it just by saying "these girls exist". And the reveal that Ozpin is some mind parasite wizard that's been controling the entire world through these huntsmen acadamies WOULD be an incredibly viable route towards upheaving civilization as we know it, actually. A shame Cinder decided to go with "the government is bad!" for her big world wide press release.

There existence COULD have earth shattering implications for the world, but I'd of liked Ozpin to be a bit more clear on that. It's important to keep in mind I had these old thoughts back when I was still under the impression this was actually meant to be a post apocolyptic type scenario. I can understand his blanket statement that the maidens being public is bad better now, knowing the lay of the world, I still just find it suspect.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Thank you for being the only person to actually comment on my point of Yang's Dad being a valid answer. I feel like given the context of some of the stuff we've seen, Bigyang has to be in on the secret. But that's my interpretation anyway.

The idea that people might control the maidens for their own purpose is a good one, and I'd of liked it more if Ozpin talked about that instead of saying it would upturn civilization as we know it just by saying "these girls exist". And the reveal that Ozpin is some mind parasite wizard that's been controling the entire world through these huntsmen acadamies WOULD be an incredibly viable route towards upheaving civilization as we know it, actually. A shame Cinder decided to go with "the government is bad!" for her big world wide press release.

My impression, and theory, is that Summer Rose died taking on a mission for Ozpin related to Salem and company, even if she didn't know it.

Cause so far, all Yang and Ruby seem to know is that Summer went on a mission one day and died/never came back. You'd think that they would at least know what the mission was or how Summer died but I've always got the impression that they don't. Which would imply that Bigyang doesn't either and that's part of the reason he shut down for a while after her passing since he wouldn't know how or why she died but also no one else would tell him either. Which would explain how short Taiyang was with Qrow at Vol. 3's end when he was askes to leave the room like it was somewhat common and Qrow's long suffering tone like it wasn't the first time he's had to talk about things behind Bigyang's back.

That combined with neither Ruby or Yang seeming to know what happened to Summer and Taiyang not seeming like the type to keep that a secret made it seem like he's out of the loop to me.

Thing is with Cinder's press release is that revealing Ozpin or tithe Maidens would have been bad moved. There is almost no way it could be proven that Ozpin is what she could have claimed he was and even if she could/did reveal the Maidens and somehow prove she was telling the truth at the same time...it only hurts the cause.

The more attention on the Maidens, the more protection that would be placed around them (in theory) by Oz's conspiracy. And even if they didn't the various Kingdoms probably would while they struggled to figure out how to handle the situation and what it all means. Which means a whole ton of attention on the Maidens that make getting to them unseen almost impossible...let alone then getting to the relics. Or rather, I should clarify, there's no real way of doing it with out exposing Salem's group and giving humanity a target.

Shed some light on Oz's conspiracy though and tie it in with recent events that no one is happy with? That's a much better route (if unoriginal) to go because it would and DID work. Ironwood, even if he is a good guy at heart, is up to some incredibly shady things and can't do so as blatantly now because people are watching him (until he goes full dictator anyway). Implying that Oz might have ulterior motives behind his actions and he's manipulating events(which he does and is) while not.being specific? That'd be certain to get people to snoop into what Oz is doing and trying to hide which would help expose them to Salem. Stir up tensions between the Kingdoms? That's easy, the war wasn't THAT long ago. All of that serve the purpose of dividing the Kingdoms and humanity which is exactly what Salem wants, as Qrow said she wants everyone to have no choice but to point at each other as everything falls apart. Cinder's speech was on point for exactly that..informing the average citizen that any suspicions they might have about their governments aren't just founded but there's darker truths to be revealed as well.

[Rater202]

Apparently, Rooster Teeth said at some point that Team STRQ fell apart entirely because of Raven's issues.

does anyone have a source for that?

[Excession]

Apparently, Rooster Teeth said at some point that Team STRQ fell apart entirely because of Raven's issues.

does anyone have a source for that?

Tai said that when talking to Yang. During their sparring session in volume 4 I think.

[Rater202]

So I'm finally getting caught up on the last couple of episodes of the volume.

Cinder seems to think that she's entitled to the power of the Maidens.

Cinder is obviously named after Cinderella.

I'm wondering if this might be a case where he mother was one of the previous Maidens, she married a man, and when he mother died shortly afterward it was not her, but one of her step-sisters who inherited the Miaden powers.

Not sure if her step-relations should have been abusive, as in the original Cinderella, or not. I don't want anything that would make me sympathize with Cinder.

[Calemyr]

So I'm finally getting caught up on the last couple of episodes of the volume.

Cinder seems to think that she's entitled to the power of the Maidens.

Cinder is obviously named after Cinderella.

I'm wondering if this might be a case where he mother was one of the previous Maidens, she married a man, and when he mother died shortly afterward it was not her, but one of her step-sisters who inherited the Miaden powers.

Not sure if her step-relations should have been abusive, as in the original Cinderella, or not. I don't want anything that would make me sympathize with Cinder.

That wouldn't really work if they wanted to keep it to Cinderella line of events. The father didn't remarry until after the mother died (naturally), so the mother wouldn't have the stepmother's family in mind when she died. I guess they could be family friends in this timeline, and that would be one heck of slight to find that your mother thought of her friend's kids more than her own, but that might be a bit of a stretch.

Besides, they have already gotten a lot of mileage out of her Cinderella heritage. Her use of glass (particularly glass slippers high heels), dust-infused clothing (magic dresses), and dance with a time limit (albeit inverted - had to get back to the ball in time rather than leave). Unless Cinder gets taken higher up the food chain, I don't think she's really worth a backstory - she wants power and she'll do whatever it takes to attain it and to ensure those that hurt her suffer.

She's an ambitious and vindictive parasite, that's all that really matters at this point.

[Rater202]

That wouldn't really work if they wanted to keep it to Cinderella line of events. The father didn't remarry until after the mother died (naturally), so the mother wouldn't have the stepmother's family in mind when she died. I guess they could be family friends in this timeline, and that would be one heck of slight to find that your mother thought of her friend's kids more than her own, but that might be a bit of a stretch.

Replace wicked stepmother with wicked stepfather.(which is what I meant when I said that the mother married a man.)

It'd hardly be the biggest liberty taken with fairytale or mythological allusions in this show.

[Calemyr]

Replace wicked stepmother with wicked stepfather.(which is what I meant when I said that the mother married a man.)

It'd hardly be the biggest liberty taken with fairytale or mythological allusions in this show.

Fair point.

[Reddish Mage]

I also just find the idea that "magic exists actually" to be pushing believability when horrible shadow monsters that eat suffering and fear exist. Even if they aren't common place and in places like Beacon rarely seen, it's a thing known in this world that people have special soul power that let them fight these huge monsters that eat fear. Magic is like not even half a step away from that.

A shame Cinder decided to go with "the government is bad!" for her big world wide press release.

There existence COULD have earth shattering implications for the world, but I'd of liked Ozpin to be a bit more clear on that. It's important to keep in mind I had these old thoughts back when I was still under the impression this was actually meant to be a post apocolyptic type scenario. I can understand his blanket statement that the maidens being public is bad better now, knowing the lay of the world, I still just find it suspect.

Saying "magic exists" is a pretty big deal in any scenario where they don't believe in it.

Its unfair to expect people be blasé about things like magic and the maidens simply because it seems to you like these things are equivalent.

This criticism amounts to simply refusing to accept the premise of the show. Its like criticizing "The Giver" for the world being colorless and no one being curious or "Soylent Green" on how the stuff being made from people doesn't get out.

The whole setup of the scenario (and the very name "Vale" for the Kingdom and the city) is that everyone thinks everything is fine and doesn't know about stuff like magic, and maidens beneath the surface. Its a world that has aura and mysterious monsters called grimm but "magic" is the stuff of Fairy Tales.

I'm wondering your criticism of the reaction to Penny also tied to the fact that you think the population should be more aware and rational about what's going on.

Once you accept the premise its a lot easier to accept that the maidens (and magic) are earth shattering by their mere mention. After all, this is typical conspiracy and "hidden world" fantasy tropes in play.

No, Cinder doesn't want to blow the lid on this stuff with her one minute to address everyone. They'd think she's off her rocker if she starts talking about magic and maidens are actually real. Moreover, the population has no way to relate it to what they are seeing in front of them. Undermining people's faith in their leaders for not being able to put safe games together (and for hiding robots as people) is a lot easier.

[LaZodiac]

Saying "magic exists" is a pretty big deal in any scenario where they don't believe in it.

Its unfair to expect people be blasé about things like magic and the maidens simply because it seems to you like these things are equivalent.

This criticism amounts to simply refusing to accept the premise of the show. Its like criticizing "The Giver" for the world being colorless and no one being curious or "Soylent Green" on how the stuff being made from people doesn't get out.

The whole setup of the scenario (and the very name "Vale" for the Kingdom and the city) is that everyone thinks everything is fine and doesn't know about stuff like magic, and maidens beneath the surface. Its a world that has aura and mysterious monsters called grimm but "magic" is the stuff of Fairy Tales.

I'm wondering your criticism of the reaction to Penny also tied to the fact that you think the population should be more aware and rational about what's going on.

Once you accept the premise its a lot easier to accept that the maidens (and magic) are earth shattering by their mere mention. After all, this is typical conspiracy and "hidden world" fantasy tropes in play.

No, Cinder doesn't want to blow the lid on this stuff with her one minute to address everyone. They'd think she's off her rocker if she starts talking about magic and maidens are actually real. Moreover, the population has no way to relate it to what they are seeing in front of them. Undermining people's faith in their leaders for not being able to put safe games together (and for hiding robots as people) is a lot easier.

Yeah I'll admit my comment on Cinder is kinda rude on my part. I just think what she DID say was really silly.

I do think people should be more aware, yeah. I wouldn't compare this to The Giver since in that world a lot of effort is put in place to making people think the black and white world Is Normal, to the point where it IS normal and no one bats an eye at it until someone mentions seeing things that "aren't correct" and they have trouble explaining those concepts. I am actually curious how they prevent the secret of Soylent Green from getting out into the world by the way, though I wouldn't call that unfair because they've done a good job of hiding it.

I just feel like Vale hasn't done a good job of making people feel "normal" enough to be confused when stuff like that happens. There's a store just down the street that'll sell me some ground up crystal that will let me throw a fireball. I just saw a child fly out of the roof of the nearby school and no one even batted an eye and we didn't read anything about it in the paper so it must be business as usual. A giant mech runs through the street killing probably dozens of people but no one in universe seems to really take note of it. This is my problem with the idea that Vale is successfully preventing people from thinking about the implications of the world they're in. And really this is just me digging too hard into it, I can accept the idea that "Ozpin is a success and thus Vale is able to give people enough sense of normality that they're get weirded out by vaguely magical stuff happening" but it does feel a little suspect.

If I saw someone jump 50 feet I'd be far more open to believing all sorts of nonsense exists, is what I'm saying.

[Reddish Mage]

If I saw someone jump 50 feet I'd be far more open to believing all sorts of nonsense exists, is what I'm saying.

And my point is, if you lived in a place where jumping 50 feet was normal but other stuff was considered Fairy Tales you would be shocked to find out that Rumplestiltskin is alive and well and can offer flexible financing on your latest wish.

Incidentally, I read a few years back researchers found footprints of humans from only like fifty to hundred thousand years back in Australia that showed they were leaping at some absurd footage but I can’t find it anymore.

[Lethologica]

So I'm finally getting caught up on the last couple of episodes of the volume.

Cinder seems to think that she's entitled to the power of the Maidens.

Cinder is obviously named after Cinderella.

I'm wondering if this might be a case where he mother was one of the previous Maidens, she married a man, and when he mother died shortly afterward it was not her, but one of her step-sisters who inherited the Miaden powers.

Not sure if her step-relations should have been abusive, as in the original Cinderella, or not. I don't want anything that would make me sympathize with Cinder.

We already have a sort of stepfamily for Cinder in Salem and WTH.

[Rater202]

We already have a sort of stepfamily for Cinder in Salem and WTH.

Is Salem the stepfamily... Or is Salem's group the Royal Family that Cinderella moved in with after meeting and falling in love with her Prince?(In this context, the power Salem promised is the Prince.)

If Cinder is Evil Cinderella, then it makes sense if the morality of the other actors in the story is also inverted.

[Anyr]

Saying "magic exists" is a pretty big deal in any scenario where they don't believe in it.

The problem is that the supposed 'magic' is no weirder than the 'mundane' things people already know about. Daily life relies on a mystical dust that can evoke myriad amazing effects. In addition, everyone on the planet can unlock a unique 'spell' that harnesses the power of their soul. Said spells range from super speed, to creating duplicates of yourself, to summoning the ghosts of slain enemies as loyal soldiers. Compared to all that, is the power to turn into a bird really so mind boggling?

[Reddish Mage]

The problem is that the supposed 'magic' is no weirder than the 'mundane' things people already know about. Daily life relies on a mystical dust that can evoke myriad amazing effects. In addition, everyone on the planet can unlock a unique 'spell' that harnesses the power of their soul. Said spells range from super speed, to creating duplicates of yourself, to summoning the ghosts of slain enemies as loyal soldiers. Compared to all that, is the power to turn into a bird really so mind boggling?

Are the X-men magic? Is vibranium? As far as the power coming from the soul does that make Motoko Kusangi magic (Ghost in the Shell is literally about souls or “ghosts” being hackable thanks to technology)?

If they introduced “magic” equipment and sorcerers into the Federation in Star Trek would that be surprising? What if they implied they were there all along? Why not, when Star Trek has psionics, technology that might as well be magical, god-like entities, creates with weird powers, and a fair degree of guest persons spouting off semi-mystical jargon.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but in the context of this thread, I don’t expect too many people have problems with fantasy and sci-fi tropes in general but, in making these criticism, are implying that RWBY is somehow special in having an unusually silly premise.

This is a forum that is currently seriously analyzing such media as Dragonball Super, the Flash, a Ranma/One Piece crossover, and the notion that we can make sense of two physics-defying characters from separate fictional universes going all out against each other in a death battle (regardless of whether they would ever actually fight to the death or attack one another). I don’t see an unwillingness to accept the basic premise of any of these ridiculous shows or criticism that the shows are founded on notions that are too unbelievable, but I am reading it about RWBY. Why?

What you are criticizing is not the magic, or aura, or grimm, exist in the setting. its the notion that people can accept that aura and grimm exist and that every person is capable of unlocking a semi-unique superpower without immediately jumping to the only logical conclusion: That the world must be magic and magical people must thereby also exist!

[LaZodiac]

Are the X-men magic?

I want to be clear that the answer to this question is both no and yes at the same time. Wanted to make sure this is clear before responding, it is magic in that it is entirely random how the meta gene works, on top of the fact that some people's mutant powers is that they're wizards (read: Scarlet Witch). Comics are bad.

I don't really understand what you're getting at here, because things like the Q Qontinuim and time travel exist in Star Trek, which is effectively magic, and everyone reacts to it with the casual nature I would expect from something. The other examples you provide are...basically the same along those lines. It's only RWBY that doesn't have people reacting as you'd expect. In Dragonball the king of the planet is a dog man and everyone just kind of accepts it, in universe. In RWBY, in universe, people act off what you'd expect from a world where people have powers and it's a regular occurence to see.

Again, maybe I'm just missunderstsanding what you're getting at, but you're kind of making our point for us. People in these universes react pretty casually to things that are "weird" in our world, because in their world it's normal. In RWBY, people are reacting to things that WE, in the real world, would find weird, but they shouldn't because it's normal to them.

[Reddish Mage]

I don't really understand what you're getting at here, because things like the Q Qontinuim and time travel exist in Star Trek, which is effectively magic, and everyone reacts to it with the casual nature I would expect from something. The other examples you provide are...basically the same along those lines. It's only RWBY that doesn't have people reacting as you'd expect. In Dragonball the king of the planet is a dog man and everyone just kind of accepts it, in universe. In RWBY, in universe, people act off what you'd expect from a world where people have powers and it's a regular occurence to see.

My point is two fold: magic is very much its own, separately labeled, thing, regardless of how “magical” you think anything is. The second is that people being shocked by it is a reaction you can expect.

In Star Trek, they react to claims of “magic” magic the same way we do, and by the end of the episode it will turn out to be hi-tech or some alternative explanation. The same goes if someone claims to be “God” (capital G).

Last I checked time travel is theoretically possible according to mainstream physics, although how it plays out in fiction is pretty out there. Still, when its introduced in Star Trek “Enterprise” for the first time, they had the Vulcans conclude it was a physical impossibility and the Science Officer is very resistant to the concept. Ditto for when Q was first introduced.

Ghost in the Shell people would find “magic” magic startling, as would the X-men from the Fox movies (as opposed to the comicbook setting where magic is commonplace).

The point is that if “aura” and “dust” and “grimm” are all seen as non magic, then people don’t see them as magic. That leaves room for some things to actually be magic.

A similar thing happens when they finally introduce magic to the MCU. When Dr. Strange shows up at his girlfriend’s workplace she freaks out over all the magical abilities she sees, even though, like everyone else in the MCU, she’s well aware of a lot of wonderful stuff out there.

In RWBY, people are reacting to things that WE, in the real world, would find weird, but they shouldn't because it's normal to them.

What is normal to them? Penny’s antics? Maidens? Or Full-on “magic.”

RWBY tells us outright what’s normal and not normal in their world. Turning into birds, wielding great elemental power without dust that sort of thing isn’t normal.

You seem to be saying it should be normal, or people should react to it as if it were normal. Its simply not true.

[LaZodiac]

My point is two fold: magic is very much its own, separately labeled, thing, regardless of how “magical” you think anything is. The second is that people being shocked by it is a reaction you can expect.

In Star Trek, they react to claims of “magic” magic the same way we do, and by the end of the episode it will turn out to be hi-tech or some alternative explanation. The same goes if someone claims to be “God” (capital G).

Last I checked time travel is theoretically possible according to mainstream physics, although how it plays out in fiction is pretty out there. Still, when its introduced in Star Trek “Enterprise” for the first time, they had the Vulcans conclude it was a physical impossibility and the Science Officer is very resistant to the concept. Ditto for when Q was first introduced.

Ghost in the Shell people would find “magic” magic startling, as would the X-men from the Fox movies (as opposed to the comicbook setting where magic is commonplace).

The point is that if “aura” and “dust” and “grimm” are all seen as non magic, then people don’t see them as magic. That leaves room for some things to actually be magic.

A similar thing happens when they finally introduce magic to the MCU. When Dr. Strange shows up at his girlfriend’s workplace she freaks out over all the magical abilities she sees, even though, like everyone else in the MCU, she’s well aware of a lot of wonderful stuff out there.

What is normal to them? Penny’s antics? Maidens? Or Full-on “magic.”

RWBY tells us outright what’s normal and not normal in their world. Turning into birds, wielding great elemental power without dust that sort of thing isn’t normal.

You seem to be saying it should be normal, or people should react to it as if it were normal. Its simply not true.

Aaah, okay, I get what you mean. I feel like in Star Trek, they know enough Science to be understandably skeptical of anything claiming to be "outside science". Whereas in RWBY, a lot of the stuff in there is still steeped in the sort of mysticism of "not science" for lack of a better term, so it seems more unlikely to me that people wouldn't just assume magic also exists, if rocks that you can stitch into your shoes so you'll shoot lightning bolts when you kick also exist. I figured all of that stuff would be considered more "magical" than "sciencetific". I do get what you mean though now, and while I mostly disagree, I do completely get where you're coming from and can see that making sense.

Penny's antics, to me, would feel "normal" in the RWBY world, since I know for a fact that if I trained hard enough I might be able to shoot lasers out of my eyes, just from trying hard enough. But that's just me. They do tell us what is and isn't weird, but it takes a long time for them TO tell us that, and by the time they have enough stuff has happened that's far more impressive than any of that (Excepting the large amounts of power shown during the final bit of Maiden-bowl) that the idea that "Weiss can summon the souls of the dead she kills" being more sensible than "can turn into bird" sounds ludicrous.