Help me cram a tower shield into my Glove of Storing

[jmax]

Magic Armor:


No need for DM fiat. Just core rules and some math ;)

Pricing for Magic Weapon/Armor Shield:
+ Price of regular Shield
+ costs for Masterwork Armor
+ costs for Masterwork Weapon
+ costs for Magic Armor enchantments
+ costs for Magic Weapon enchantments

Excellent. Thanks!

[Blue Jay]

Magic Armor:


No need for DM fiat. Just core rules and some math ;)

Pricing for Magic Weapon/Armor Shield:
+ Price of regular Shield
+ costs for Masterwork Armor
+ costs for Masterwork Weapon
+ costs for Magic Armor enchantments
+ costs for Magic Weapon enchantments

Except, again, tower shields can't be used as a weapon, so they can't be enchanted as a weapon, either.

I had a player in a recent game who was doing exactly this. I gave him a variable darkwood tower shield, and I let him put a +1 flaming shield spike on it, but it the spike only works when his shield is changed into a light or heavy shield (it disappears in tower shield form, but he can still count the shield as having the flaming property so his dragon spirit cincture still gives him +1 to the save DC of his breath weapon).

He was also looking at a glove of storing so he could do the free-action switch thing, and we just priced out a double-capacity glove, because there are so many other things I'd rather be doing in the game than worrying about how heavy his shield is at any given time.

[Vizzerdrix]

I could have sworn Id seen something that would do what you wanted. Some material. Was it glasssteel? Maybe something out of A&EG or MoF.

Either way, maybe you could use shapesand to make your towershield instead.

[Gruftzwerg]

Except, again, tower shields can't be used as a weapon, so they can't be enchanted as a weapon, either.

Sry to correct you. Tower Shields can't be used for the regular Shield Bash. But you can still use em as Improvised Weapon (with a -4 toHit penalty).

And if you/the DM somehow insist that Improvised Weapons can't be enchanted as weapons (it's a gray area, but imho raw you can enchant Imp. Weapons):

Since Tower Shields are still "shields"..

A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.

.. Trumps the general rule that the target of weapon enchantments needs to be a "weapon".

[Vizzerdrix]

And if you/the DM somehow insist that Improvised Weapons can't be enchanted as weapons (it's a gray area, but imho raw you can enchant Imp. Weapons

Wow. Wowowow hold on for a second. This is more important. Are you saying we can have +1 everfull frost mugs? Because thats what Im hearing. Tastey cold brews whenever we want them. THAT is what you are saying? So why havent we optomized this yet? Anyone?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Wow. Wowowow hold on for a second. This is more important. Are you saying we can have +1 everfull frost mugs? Because thats what Im hearing. Tastey cold brews whenever we want them. THAT is what you are saying? So why havent we optomized this yet? Anyone?

Well, there's a deep philosophical question here: if something is said to be an improvised [something], does that mean it is [something] (but improvised), or is it not [something] (but used in the manner of/in a way reminescent of/to achieve a result you would normally achieve with [something])?

If an everfull mug is a weapon, you can enchant it if it's a masterwork mug.

[Blue Jay]

Sry to correct you. Tower Shields can't be used for the regular Shield Bash. But you can still use em as Improvised Weapon (with a -4 toHit penalty).

And if you/the DM somehow insist that Improvised Weapons can't be enchanted as weapons (it's a gray area, but imho raw you can enchant Imp. Weapons)

You recall the rule that only masterwork weapons can be enhanced with weapon properties, right?

So, the question is, can you make a masterwork version of an improvised weapon?

Here's the SRD definition of an improvised weapon:

"Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object."

source

I'm pretty sure a masterwork chair leg would count as "crafted to be a weapon," since that's specifically what "masterwork" means. That means a masterwork improvised weapon cannot exist.

So, no: by RAW, you cannot magically enhance an improvised weapon.

Since Tower Shields are still "shields"..

A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.

.. Trumps the general rule that the target of weapon enchantments needs to be a "weapon".

...but doesn't trump the even-more-specific rule that tower shields can't be used for shield bash attacks.

[Darrin]

For rounding down, I thought that generally referred to things adjudicated against die rolls, which are inherently whole numbers. Is there a rule that causes it to apply to all math?

There is indeed a general rule. PHB p. 304:

"In general, if you wind up with a fraction, round down, even if the fraction is one-half or larger."

And as far as those alternate calculations, that is totally not how math works and you know it. BUT, now that I think about it, that is how math works in D&D 3.5. It was never intended to be used that way, but it does follow the multiplication rules properly. I somehow doubt my DM (who is also an engineer) is going to buy that, but it's worth a shot :-P

Darkwood (DMG p. 283): "Any wooden or mostly wooden item (such as a bow, an arrow, or a spear) made from darkwood is considered a masterwork item and weighs only half as much as a normal wooden item of that type." (emphasis added)

A normal tower shield weighs 45 lbs. Half that is 22.5, a reduction in weight of 22.5 lbs.

Feycraft (DMGII p. 275): "A feycraft shield or suit of armor weighs 10% less than its normal counterpart." (emphasis added)

A normal tower shield (NOT a darkwood tower shield) weighs 45 lbs. Reducing the weight by 10% would be 4.5 lbs.

By adding feycraft, you are reducing the weight by 4.5 lbs, a value that the rules tell you how to calculate. If it's a normal tower shield, that drops the weight to 40.5 lbs. For a darkwood tower shield, it drops the weight to 18 lbs.

At no point do the rules tell you to multiply the percentages together. In fact, there aren't any rules in D&D that specify a particular order of operations.

Oh, and the rule about fractions is ambiguous... it doesn't tell you at what point you drop fractions down to the nearest whole number. Presumably it's a "last step" kind of thing... but again, D&D does not enforce any particular order of operations.

For the Flying Force Surfboard, is there something there actually turning it into force, or is that a comparison with Riverine? Does Riverine block an antimagic field like a wall of force does?

Riverine is made out of supercompressed water enclosed by walls of force (at which point you need the water for... what exactly?). Unfortunately, whoever came up with the idea only spent about 30 seconds thinking about the implications, so there wasn't much thought put into what happens when you bring it into an AMF.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Riverine is made out of supercompressed water enclosed by walls of force (at which point you need the water for... what exactly?).

Easy. Mass (and therefore, weight). Swinging a riverine sword that weighs nothing won't have the same impact (heh) as one with the same weight as the sword it's emulating.

Unfortunately, whoever came up with the idea only spent about 30 seconds thinking about the implications, so there wasn't much thought put into what happens when you bring it into an AMF.

Riverine is (as you mentioned) made from walls of force. Said walls are immune to the effects of antimagic fields once in effect.

[Gruftzwerg]

You recall the rule that only masterwork weapons can be enhanced with weapon properties, right?

So, the question is, can you make a masterwork version of an improvised weapon?

Here's the SRD definition of an improvised weapon:

I'm pretty sure a masterwork chair leg would count as "crafted to be a weapon," since that's specifically what "masterwork" means. That means a masterwork improvised weapon cannot exist.

So, no: by RAW, you cannot magically enhance an improvised weapon.

I don't see why one should exclude the other? The primary purpose of the "magic chair"-improvised weapon is still to be a chair. It's secondary purpose is to be a masterwork/magical (improvised) weapon (e.g. harder materials, spiky legs..).
Imho you pay the price of the masterwork weapon upgrade for an item and are rdy to go to enchant it.
But as said, gray area and imho at most tables up to DM decision since the rules are just not clear enough here.

...but doesn't trump the even-more-specific rule that tower shields can't be used for shield bash attacks.

And what does that have to do with enchanting it as a weapon?

Nothing!

All Shields can be enchanted as weapon > here you go with your Dancing Tower Shield.

The Dancing Tower Shield may not use Shield Bash sadly and has to use itself as improvised weapon instead (-4 toHit), but that doesn't change the fact, that all shields may be enchanted as weapons and thus it works.

[jmax]

There is indeed a general rule. PHB p. 304:

"In general, if you wind up with a fraction, round down, even if the fraction is one-half or larger."



Darkwood (DMG p. 283): "Any wooden or mostly wooden item (such as a bow, an arrow, or a spear) made from darkwood is considered a masterwork item and weighs only half as much as a normal wooden item of that type." (emphasis added)

A normal tower shield weighs 45 lbs. Half that is 22.5, a reduction in weight of 22.5 lbs.

Feycraft (DMGII p. 275): "A feycraft shield or suit of armor weighs 10% less than its normal counterpart." (emphasis added)

A normal tower shield (NOT a darkwood tower shield) weighs 45 lbs. Reducing the weight by 10% would be 4.5 lbs.

By adding feycraft, you are reducing the weight by 4.5 lbs, a value that the rules tell you how to calculate. If it's a normal tower shield, that drops the weight to 40.5 lbs. For a darkwood tower shield, it drops the weight to 18 lbs.

At no point do the rules tell you to multiply the percentages together. In fact, there aren't any rules in D&D that specify a particular order of operations.

Oh, and the rule about fractions is ambiguous... it doesn't tell you at what point you drop fractions down to the nearest whole number. Presumably it's a "last step" kind of thing... but again, D&D does not enforce any particular order of operations.



Riverine is made out of supercompressed water enclosed by walls of force (at which point you need the water for... what exactly?). Unfortunately, whoever came up with the idea only spent about 30 seconds thinking about the implications, so there wasn't much thought put into what happens when you bring it into an AMF.

Still not sure that's what the designers intended for the math, but it does seem to be written into the general rules. Nice.

Regarding riverine - ok, yeah, that should work. Odd that it's 2000 gp per pound when part that makes it special (the walls of force) is weightless.

Wow. Wowowow hold on for a second. This is more important. Are you saying we can have +1 everfull frost mugs? Because thats what Im hearing. Tastey cold brews whenever we want them. THAT is what you are saying? So why havent we optomized this yet? Anyone?

I'll do you one better. While everyone else is busy arguing over whether tower shields and improvised weapons can get weapon enchantments, we'll be enjoying a nice brew from our +1 Frost Seeking Everfull mugs. The Seeking enchantment ensures that the fired beer ignores any cover that the rest of your body might provide against your esophagus, which is really useful after the first few rounds. You only have to get it into the same 5-foot square. Since ranged weapons (such as beer mugs, which throw pre-set amounts of beer with a range increment of 6 inches and must be reloaded between throws) confer their enchantments on their ammunition, the beer becomes both Frosty and Seeking. It also has a +1 enhancement bonus on the attack roll to hit your esophagus and a +1 enhancement bonus on damage to your liver.

[Blue Jay]

There is indeed a general rule. PHB p. 304:

"In general, if you wind up with a fraction, round down, even if the fraction is one-half or larger."

...

At no point do the rules tell you to multiply the percentages together. In fact, there aren't any rules in D&D that specify a particular order of operations.

Actually, there are. Under the next section, "Multiplying," it says this:

When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead.

So, you multiply multipliers as normal, because it's dealing with a real-world value.

That said, I feel like DM's have more important and interesting things to do than make sure you don't go a single ounce over your weight limit, so I would advocate fudging a detail or two in this context (just let the player have 20.25 lbs in his glove of storing: who cares, really?).

I don't see why one should exclude the other? The primary purpose of the "magic chair"-improvised weapon is still to be a chair. It's secondary purpose is to be a masterwork/magical (improvised) weapon (e.g. harder materials, spiky legs..).
Imho you pay the price of the masterwork weapon upgrade for an item and are rdy to go to enchant it.
But as said, gray area and imho at most tables up to DM decision since the rules are just not clear enough here.

Okay, I came into this arguing that your idea is not supported by RAW, because your original comment was that no DM fiat was needed. Clearly, you've backed off from that.

If you'd like to know how I'd rule in this situation, I would rely on context. If we're playing a lighthearted game, and you're a drunken master who wants to commission an artificer to make him a +1 flaming chair because it would be hilarious, I might allow it. But, if you're just leaning on rules minutiae to justify an exploit, I would not allow it.

And what does that have to do with enchanting it as a weapon?

Nothing!

All Shields can be enchanted as weapon > here you go with your Dancing Tower Shield.

The Dancing Tower Shield may not use Shield Bash sadly and has to use itself as improvised weapon instead (-4 toHit), but that doesn't change the fact, that all shields may be enchanted as weapons and thus it works.

It doesn't say "All shields can be enchanted as weapons." You're reading a single unspecified comment and interpreting it as an authoritative, blanket permission.

Here's the full quote from DMG:

Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a bash. The bashing special ability, however, does grant a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls (see the special ability description). You could, in fact, build a shield that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.

In context, it's pretty clear that it's referring to shields that are already usable as weapons, and not telling you that all shields qualify for taking weapon enhancements.

Curiously, the very next line after the one you quoted is an example: it's a buckler with shield spikes. And of course, according to the PHB, you can't put shield spikes on a buckler. I do wish we had a facepalm smiley on this forum.

[Gruftzwerg]

Okay, I came into this arguing that your idea is not supported by RAW, because your original comment was that no DM fiat was needed. Clearly, you've backed off from that.

No I haven't backed off from the argument that Shields (incl tower shields) can be enchanted as magic weapon by RAW. I just pointed out that "improvised weapons" are a gray area where the DM has the last word.

It doesn't say "All shields can be enchanted as weapons." You're reading a single unspecified comment and interpreting it as an authoritative, blanket permission.

Here's the full quote from DMG:

In context, it's pretty clear that it's referring to shields that are already usable as weapons, and not telling you that all shields qualify for taking weapon enhancements.

Curiously, the very next line after the one you quoted is an example: it's a buckler with shield spikes. And of course, according to the PHB, you can't put shield spikes on a buckler. I do wish we had a facepalm smiley on this forum.

ehm...? how shall I start..
You quoted 3 sentences. And the last one is the one I quoted. There is no "next line after" my quote in your quote (unless you talk about the sentence before it..).

The 1st sentence you quoted just talk about shield enchantment bonuses not affecting attack & dmg rolls with a shield.
The 2nd just talks about the "Bashing" shield enchantment (not a weapon enchantment!).
The 3rd sentence gives you a (new) option to enchant shields (not further specified and no indication that it relies on "bashing", so doesn't exclude tower shields) as magic weapon.

The 3rd sentence doesn't alter/effect the previous sentences. It adds a new option/rule/exception (to the 1st sentence), nothing else.

I don't know what the intention of the designers was and maybe RAI it shouldn't work. But by RAW it works.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Take a tower shield, polymorph any object it into a Small tower shield, and store it in the glove? When exposed to the antimagic field effect, the glove and the PAO are both suppressed, thereby giving you access to the tower shield while in the AMF? Or for further benefits outside of antimagic, PAO it into a weapon and enhance it with sizing and morphing.

[Bohandas]

Shrink Item. Lasts a day per CL, so it will rarely-to-never cut into your adventuring spell routine.

EDIT: Nope, never mind. Doesn't look like that spell reduces the item's weight.

No ,it reduces it by a factor of 4000

Spoiler

Show

Shrink Item
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One touched object of up to 2 cu. ft./level
Duration: One day/level; see text
Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)

You are able to shrink one nonmagical item (if it is within the size limit) to 1/16 of its normal size in each dimension (to about 1/4,000 the original volume and mass). This change effectively reduces the object’s size by four categories. Optionally, you can also change its now shrunken composition to a clothlike one. Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster. Even a burning fire and its fuel can be shrunk by this spell. Restoring the shrunken object to its normal size and composition ends the spell.

Shrink item can be made permanent with a permanency spell, in which case the affected object can be shrunk and expanded an indefinite number of times, but only by the original caster.

This also allows it to be combined with a flying familiar to create a Lazy Dog bomb

[Bohandas]

Darkwood (DMG p. 283): "Any wooden or mostly wooden item (such as a bow, an arrow, or a spear) made from darkwood is considered a masterwork item and weighs only half as much as a normal wooden item of that type."

This also partly answers the question of "can improvised weapons be masterwork?"

A leg ripped off of a darkwood table is a masterwork weapon