Belkar's Character Development?

[Peelee]

Call me crazy, but if Belkar does pull a huge heroic sacrifice of some sort, then it would have to somehow render him unraisable. I can't see Roy, or the rest of the order, looking at him literally giving up his life and not at least considering bringing him back.

Unless Belkar doesn't want to be raised. The spell isn't an auto-success.

[wumpus]

I think you are confusing love with desire, but I'll not derail in that direction since Belkar loves only Belkar, and maybe Mr Scruffy. He desires hookers, apparently.

Heh, here's Irony for you. Belkar(CE) eventually achieves redemption, while Miko (LG) never did. I can see Rich doing that ...

Belkar hitting neutrality would be "redemption". Miko appears to have been towing the line of LN since birth, and was trying to re-achieve paladinhood. To be honest, it might actually be farther from a peak of 3 kilonazis (presumably less than .5 kilonazis *before* his path to redemption started) to neutrality than "probably still on the side of LG" to palaldinhood (would Pandamonium qualify as redemption? for Belkar, it might but I doubt that Rich would bother showing us that).

I think we expect V to be redeemed. Even a single error (however huge) likely can be redeemed (especially if you only want to get back to neutral). Luckily, it doesn't look like the ICC really cares about collecting V's soul.

Valhalla. The word you are looking for is Valhalla.

Presumably Ysguard (CG and CN) in D&D cosmology. Oddly enough, Asguard (containing both LG and LN souls) appears ideal for Miko. Coming from a peak of 3 kilonazis of evil (back in "Origins of PCs"), I'd go so far as to claim Pandamonium (CE and CN) would qualify as "redemption" for Belkar. Personally, I expect him on the "Battleground" in Hades, fighting for the Abyss to prove himself as the rightful "sexy shoeless god of war" (this may take centuries/millennia).

[Cazero]

Which is why I say it is not comparable to the actual alignment test, who does consider all your life actions and where they fall in the dual alignment scales before determining which afterlife you belong to.

What we know is that Hel get priority on the "dishonorable" deaths. Wether or not there is an alignment test afterwards was never stated.

[Fyraltari]

What we know is that Hel get priority on the "dishonorable" deaths. Wether or not there is an alignment test afterwards was never stated.

The nature of the bet kind of imply it though.

Thor keeps the "normal arrangement" so any soul that goes to him has to go through the test.

[RatElemental]

Unless Belkar doesn't want to be raised. The spell isn't an auto-success.

Fair enough, though I struggle to imagine a reason Belkar would turn down a raise if he knew it was from his allies he just totally sacrificed himself for.

[Peelee]

Fair enough, though I struggle to imagine a reason Belkar would turn down a raise if he knew it was from his allies he just totally sacrificed himself for.

Well, assuming he's been an evil creature all his life and still gets into a good afterlife....

[Ruck]

What we know is that Hel get priority on the "dishonorable" deaths. Wether or not there is an alignment test afterwards was never stated.

Pretty sure the Giant has, in fact, explicitly stated there is. (And besides, if there wasn't, how exactly do you think the souls would get sorted out?)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Pretty sure the Giant has, in fact, explicitly stated there is.

It's in fact, canon that dwarves that die with honor go to the plane that matches their alignment.

GW

[Cazero]

The nature of the bet kind of imply it though.

Thor keeps the "normal arrangement" so any soul that goes to him has to go through the test.

Pretty sure the Giant has, in fact, explicitly stated there is. (And besides, if there wasn't, how exactly do you think the souls would get sorted out?)

It's in fact, canon that dwarves that die with honor go to the plane that matches their alignment.

GW

Precisely what I was pointing at, thank you very much.

[oonker]

Fair enough, though I struggle to imagine a reason Belkar would turn down a raise if he knew it was from his allies he just totally sacrificed himself for.

Maybe his sacrifice makes his body become unraisable. I have the feeling RThe Giant has confirmed that there is no such thing as a true ressurection on his setting (hence the fury in Sabine's eye for the death of Nale, because his remains were scattered in the desert).

So if Belkar's sacrifice for some reason makes him have his body utterly destroyed, he will have drawn his last breath ever by the end of the year.

[Emanick]

Maybe his sacrifice makes his body become unraisable. I have the feeling RThe Giant has confirmed that there is no such thing as a true ressurection on his setting (hence the fury in Sabine's eye for the death of Nale, because his remains were scattered in the desert).

So if Belkar's sacrifice for some reason makes him have his body utterly destroyed, he will have drawn his last breath ever by the end of the year.

The Giant has confirmed that he hates True Resurrection and that it shouldn't be a thing. But Haley mentions it after Celia loses Roy's body in Greysky City, so it clearly exists in OOTSverse.

[hroþila]

The Giant has confirmed that he hates True Resurrection and that it shouldn't be a thing. But Haley mentions it after Celia loses Roy's body in Greysky City, so it clearly exists in OOTSverse.

Not necessarily. Redcloak had to research whether psionics were a thing in this setting, which suggests he knew about psionics on a meta level quite independently from whether or not it actually existed. Maybe it's the same for True Resurrection.

[Emanick]

Not necessarily. Redcloak had to research whether psionics were a thing in this setting, which suggests he knew about psionics on a meta level quite independently from whether or not it actually existed. Maybe it's the same for True Resurrection.

Seems like a stretch to me. She listed it as a 9th level spell and talked about it like it was a real thing, not a hypothetical that might or might not exist. That line does not sound like it’s meta.

[Kish]

Equating "True Resurrection is a horrible, game-wrecking spell and I wish it didn't exist in Dungeons and Dragons" with "True Resurrection has been house ruled out of my D&D comic" seems excessively meta to me.

Rich has never said "True Resurrection doesn't exist in the OotS world," or anything close to it. Sabine has no reasonable expectation of ever having access to a level 18+ cleric who would be willing to bring back someone like Nale.

[Fyraltari]

Still the Giant, hates it, thinks it gets in the way of drama and good plot and wish it did not exist. I feel confident in saying that it won't have an influence on the comic. So even if it is exists it is like Horace's father : exists, will never show up, why talk about it ?

[RatElemental]

This is a world where it's difficult to find someone capable of casting a 7th level spell (resurrection). True resurrection is likely possible, but highly highly highly unlikely to have anyone living capable of casting it, aside from Redcloak.

Just like it's possible to research and cast epic spells, including epic resurrection spells. But apparently there's exactly one (un)living person capable of casting those currently.

There may be a small handful outside of the main villains of this plot who can do that stuff too, but I sort of doubt it. That kind of magic brings with it being someone who can have an effect on the world planes at large, whether you want to be or not.

[wumpus]

Well, assuming he's been an evil creature all his life and still gets into a good afterlife....

He was still at .5 kilonazis when Roy died. He's not getting into a good afterlife, probably not even pandamonium. On the other hand, he might feel that getting a shot at "sexy, shoeless god of war" for real on the plains of Hades might be a great afterlife (for him).

This would be a [somewhat] satisfying end, but I can't see it happening. Sacrifice is sacrifice, no matter how good the Heaven that Roy saw. Rich doesn't like raise dead spells, so expect circumstances to work against such things (hopefully he will allow Durkon a raise. Especially since he hasn't exactly left us).

[KorvinStarmast]

Rich may not like raise dead spells, but Durkon finally raised Roy, right?

[Kish]

There is a vast difference between "hates True Resurrection" and "hates all raise dead spells."

[hroþila]

Seems like a stretch to me. She listed it as a 9th level spell and talked about it like it was a real thing, not a hypothetical that might or might not exist. That line does not sound like it’s meta.

Then consider that we've seen a couple characters with actual real-world sourcebooks.

[Fyraltari]

Rich may not like raise dead spells, but Durkon finally raised Roy, right?

It took an entire book to get to that point. True resurrection is a problem because once it is available it can fix any death ever. Raise dead allow him to throw obstacles in the heroes' path, thus preserving the drama.

Still any form of resurrection is always a problem because you have to go an extra mile to have your readers accept anyone's death.

Death is the ultimate consequence of one's actions, and without consequences there is no story.

[KorvinStarmast]

I am aware of Rich's points on that: I have read Giant's comments on that more than once, thanks to our banana archvist and other folks providing links to those discussions.

[Mandor]

It's also possible, albeit terribly unlikely, that Belkar's death is permanent because EVERYBODY is going to die, as the gods unmake the world to save themselves.
Elan gets a happy ending because he and Haley get to meet up in the same afterlife realm and enjoy CG's laid back eternal reward of "be excellent to each other" and "party on dude".
There's never a ressurection for anyone because everyone is dead, and the Oracle only foretold it specfically for Belkar because he hates him and wants him to sweat over it.

But see above, not terribly likely. It wouldn't make a very satisfying ending for a D&D campaign unless it was a last-hurrah campaign from friends heading to different colleges who didn't think they'd ever get to play again. Even then, not really a great ending.

[Jannoire]

Fair enough, though I struggle to imagine a reason Belkar would turn down a raise if he knew it was from his allies he just totally sacrificed himself for.

When you think of the illusion, Draketooth's spell induced to Belkar, that'd be some rad afterlife for him... Though I highly doubt Belkar going into CG afterlife. My money is on a CN afterlife for Belkar where he spends his days chilling with the Scruffinator and Bloodfeast... Why would he treat that away? Won't get much better for him.

There's never a ressurection for anyone because everyone is dead, and the Oracle only foretold it specfically for Belkar because he hates him and wants him to sweat over it.

Except that Belkar doesn't know about that. The only one knowing are the Oracle and Roy (because he got banished and bypassed the Memory spell). Roy then told Haley, but that's pretty much it.

[RatElemental]

There's never a ressurection for anyone because everyone is dead, and the Oracle only foretold it specfically for Belkar because he hates him and wants him to sweat over it.

Except that Belkar doesn't know about that. The only one knowing are the Oracle and Roy (because he got banished and bypassed the Memory spell). Roy then told Haley, but that's pretty much it.

Roy certainly doesn't seem to be trying to keep it a secret.

[Peelee]

Roy certainly doesn't seem to be trying to keep it a secret.

Belkar certainly doesn't seem to be sweating over it.

[KorvinStarmast]

But see above, not terribly likely. It wouldn't make a very satisfying ending for a D&D campaign unless it was a last-hurrah campaign from friends heading to different colleges who didn't think they'd ever get to play again. Even then, not really a great ending.

While you have an interesting idea there, I don't think that's going to happen because Rich Has Already Used That Joke About A Terrible Ending.

[wumpus]

While you have an interesting idea there, I don't think that's going to happen because Rich Has Already Used That Joke About A Terrible Ending.

It was an appropriate ending for a "not the real villain". The terrible bit for Tarquin was to have that shoved in his face. Xykon is the real villain and has to be dealt with more appropriately (which must at least involve destroying the phylactery but may involved sufficient banishment to a "prison plane" such as inside the snarl).

[Emanick]

Roy certainly doesn't seem to be trying to keep it a secret.

Roy likely only mentioned the prophecy to Belkar in that scene because he was distraught and in a semi-mental breakdown. Even then he only alluded to it in a vague and rather confusing way. It seems as if he’s generally trying to keep it a secret, even if he slipped up briefly when under extreme emotional duress.

[Kish]

What Elan said was, "Will this story have a happy ending?" And he got the answer, "Yes--for you, at least." Any variation on "the Oracle meant the story would have a tragic ending but Elan would, from some perspective, be happy at some point after it" amounts to "the Oracle lied and Rich stuck that there to troll his readers because he's actually as amoral and cynical as Gurm after all."