Belkar's Character Development?

[Stabbey]

If the timeline is accurate, comics 673 to 946 (273 strips) covered 16 days, and that's including a single strip which had a 6-day searching montage in it. So far (183 strips), this book has covered about 6 days.

21-ish days is probably enough time to fit one book's worth of strips, so I wouldn't write Belkar's obituary today.

[Ruck]

And since when is "he'll draw his last breath ever" or "he's not long for the world" not coming out and saying it?

Since I was reading this thread again after it was bumped recently, the exchange that led to this comment made me realize that even if the Oracle had flat-out said "Belkar is going to be dead and gone, for real, by the end of the year," people who don't want that to happen would still find a way to explain that what the Oracle really meant was that he would become undead, or metaphorically "a whole new person," etc.

[Peelee]

Perhaps quite a bit too optimistic, but until I'm proven wrong, I'm going to assume that the prophecy is fulfilled by Belkar's character development being so extreme that he's essentially a new person. Or ala Reincarnation.

Then when I am proven wrong, I am going to go bawl for a few hours about how Redemption = Death is the worst trope evar.

Where did you ever get that Belkar would get redemption?

[Breyfunk]

Redemption is rare thing after all.

So, the Giant plants seeds frequently in this comic, and I would find it totally OOTS like and poetic for Belkar to find redemption, but not Miko.

[Takver]

I admit that I'm a 100% sucker for Belkar's character development. I know he spent the first, what, 600* strips as a mass-murdering sociopath with zero redeeming qualities, and then he spent the next 200* strips as mass-murdering sociopath with one redeeming quality (his cat.) I also understand that he's done nothing to atone for his heinous crimes and that nothing he could do would make it all right. I get all of that. I do.

But I still find his growth and his pain some of the most compelling writing in the story. His anger that he's changing and doesn't know how to stop it. His fury that he cares about someone. That he has feelings he doesn't know how to cope with. That for the first time, he feels ashamed of himself.

He's like Voldemort if, at the end of Deathly Hallows, Voldemort had taken Harry up on his offer to try for some remorse that might heal his wretched, neglected, unwanted soul. Remorse is so painful for a soul like that, that it's most likely to kill him with its awful weight. Or it might...?

I'm rooting for him to redeem himself, whatever that means for Belkar. If he doesn't make it to Neutral, I at least hope he learns to understand his feelings so they don't make him so angry and confused. Yes, I think he's really changing. Let his soul be healed.

(I'm an equally big sucker for V's redemption arc. Not popular here, I know.)

*I made these numbers up, don't @ me.

[LuisDantas]

So what do you fans think? Travelling north of evil, or faking it?

I am far less sympathetic towards Belkar than most posters who like to mention him, and I generally do not miss him.

But sure, in recent strips he has shown a genuine personality change for the better, and become less of a caricature as a result. It is particularly noticeable when he reacts to comments about Durkon's personality. #1130 most of all, when he lampshades how comparable his own situation is to that of Greg.

And that is a relief. Belkar just wasn't working for me as a character. His fever dream with Shojo felt self-serving justification for further degeneration to me, and to this day I feel disgust for how he behaved in Greysky City. Nor do I consider his attachment to Mr. Scruffy at all redeeming. I understand that these are not popular opinions, but they definitely are mine.

Having been saved by Durkon made wonders to Belkar. I may perhaps actually miss him when he dies now.

[KorvinStarmast]

Since you are an oracle. When it comes to precise wording that tricks you into believing something that isn't right, it goes Oracles -> Demons -> lawyers.

Yeah.

I'm rooting for him to redeem himself, whatever that means for Belkar. If he doesn't make it to Neutral, I at least hope he learns to understand his feelings so they don't make him so angry and confused. Yes, I think he's really changing. Let his soul be healed.

While I am rooting for his soul to be healed (see Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, Inferno (1976), for an interesting take on that) Belkar might need to climb a metaphorically higher mountain than Roy did in Celestia to get a chance at redemption. He's been on the wrong side of good for so long ... we'll see.

[Sylian]

I think Belkar, before he dies, will end up Chaotic Neutral. That, clearly, seems to be the direction he's going in. I don't think he'll end up Chaotic Good though (not unless V ends up Neutral Good, which I also find somewhat unlikely although it is plausible, I suppose).

Speaking of, do you guys think Haley started as Chaotic Neutral and ended up as Chaotic Good through traveling with the Order, or was she Chaotic Good from the start? Roy, Durkon, and Elan were obviously Good, although it is not obvious that Haley was (she did mention how Elan made her want to be a better person).

[Kish]

(I'm an equally big sucker for V's redemption arc. Not popular here, I know.)

Don't confuse my and Zimmer's conviction with speaking for significant numbers of other people.

[zimmerwald1915]

Don't confuse my and Zimmer's conviction with speaking for significant numbers of other people.

Why not? If our voices are artificially amplified, our opinions might have outsize influence. Given that our opinions are correct, this can only be a good thing.

[KorvinStarmast]

Why not? If our voices are artificially amplified, our opinions might have outsize influence. Given that our opinions are correct, this can only be a good thing.

V's redemption arc has only begun; I suspect that it will not be concluded by the end of book VII, but will be what V has to face and work through as a case of "where will the Order go once their major goal is achieved?" when they finally say goodbye to one another. V's fate will be to seek out a path to redemption, which is something V discussed directly with Roy after the battle with Tarquin's army. V has also indicated in that series of discussions that V may be beyond redemption, but what's different between V and Belkar is that V has a desire to at least make the effort at restitution. That V is an elf and will live a very long time (combat deaths considered, adventuring mishaps considered) leaves open a hope, not a surety, of redemption.

That's all any of us can hope for. (redemption wise) Rich's point on redemption in the brief conversation between Soon's spirit and Miko points toward a few factors in what makes redemption so special, and even rare. There's an opening, but I don't think V's attempts at redemption will fit into the scope of the larger work. (But we have all of book VII, so who knows?)

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't think V's attempts at redemption will fit into the scope of the larger work.

I agree entirely. In which case, what's the point? The "arc," such as it is, might as well have stopped with Vaarsuvius leaving the party to make restituation at the end of Book V as it will with Vaarsuvius leaving the party to make restitution at the end of Book VII - and at neither point will any of it have paid off. It can't possibly.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I agree entirely. In which case, what's the point? The "arc," such as it is, might as well have stopped with Vaarsuvius leaving the party to make restituation at the end of Book V as it will with Vaarsuvius leaving the party to make restitution at the end of Book VII - and at neither point will any of it have paid off. It can't possibly.

You either hated or completely missed the point of The Neverending Story (or possibly didn’t read it in the first place I suppose)

GW

[KorvinStarmast]

I agree entirely. In which case, what's the point? The "arc," such as it is, might as well have stopped with Vaarsuvius leaving the party to make restituation at the end of Book V as it will with Vaarsuvius leaving the party to make restitution at the end of Book VII - and at neither point will any of it have paid off. It can't possibly.

The point is that redemption is a process, it is in Rich's words something very special, and that unlike Belkar, V admits that what V did was wrong, was horrible, and is actively trying to do something about it. Belkar so far has no feelings of guilt about his lifelong spree of slaughter. It is OK for the last book to end, V having had two more visits to the IFCC as advertised, and the epilogue being that V cannot rest on any laurels after victory over Xykon is achieved. V still has work to do while Elan can have a happy ending, Durkon can go home, Roy can be satisfied with a fulfilled quest, Haley can have a loving and trusting relationship with Elan, and Belkar can ... uh, whatever, since the Oracle suggests that Belkar ends up by the end of book VII as dead. (And as another part of the epilogue, Eugene gets to enter Celestia but will spend most of eternity climbing that mountain ... since he'll get side tracked along the way...)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Belkar can ... uh, whatever, since the Oracle suggests that Belkar ends up by the end of book VII as dead.

Headcanon: Belkar can gleefully start the process of murdering his way through whatever hellish landscape full of eternal conflict he turns out to belong to.

GW

[KorvinStarmast]

Headcanon: Belkar can gleefully start the process of murdering his way through whatever hellish landscape full of eternal conflict he turns out to belong to.

GW

Works for me. It certainly fits his self professed identity as Sexy Shoeless God of War.

[zimmerwald1915]

The point is that redemption is a process, it is in Rich's words something very special, and that unlike Belkar, V admits that what V did was wrong, was horrible, and is actively trying to do something about it. Belkar so far has no feelings of guilt about his lifelong spree of slaughter. It is OK for the last book to end, V having had two more visits to the IFCC as advertised, and the epilogue being that V cannot rest on any laurels after victory over Xykon is achieved. V still has work to do while Elan can have a happy ending, Durkon can go home, Roy can be satisfied with a fulfilled quest, Haley can have a loving and trusting relationship with Elan, and Belkar can ... uh, whatever, since the Oracle suggests that Belkar ends up by the end of book VII as dead. (And as another part of the epilogue, Eugene gets to enter Celestia but will spend most of eternity climbing that mountain ... since he'll get side tracked along the way...)

This isn't actually a counterargument to what I said. If redemption is a process that doesn't end, and at some point we're going to stop following it, then we might as well stop following it sooner rather than later in order to not waste our time. At no point are any of the events going to matter to the conclusion of the story, because there is no conclusion to the story.

This can be seen clearly enough from. . . the entirety of this book, in which Vaarsuvius has barely acted and the events of which have not impacted her "ongoing" story in any way. If the character has barely been present, what was the point of keeping her around after Book V?

[Takver]

You could say that about all stories, though. Every endpoint is arbitrary. If V went off at the end of book seven, on a quest to atone for their crime, in humility, not knowing if it were possible to succeed but knowing that their life must be consecrated to the attempt--I would find that a very satisfying story. An ambiguous but hopeful redemption arc.

It's true that V probably had the least page time of anyone in the Order this book. But I think they will be back in a big way for book 7, because there are still 2 soul-nappings left. I think that Roy, V, and Belkar will be the big character focuses of book 7, because all three of them still have something significant left to achieve in their arcs. This was Durkon's book, the last book was Elan's, and Haley is pretty much fully self-actualized (as we saw with the Crystal golem.)

[Rrmcklin]

I agree entirely. In which case, what's the point? The "arc," such as it is, might as well have stopped with Vaarsuvius leaving the party to make restituation at the end of Book V as it will with Vaarsuvius leaving the party to make restitution at the end of Book VII - and at neither point will any of it have paid off. It can't possibly.

Because a story like that doesn't necessarily need a definitive "yes" or "no" conclusion. The point, I think, isn't even if V can make up for what they've done; it's that they've acknowledge they need to, trying to become a better person, and to working on it. I'd say that's plenty pay-off. It's called character development.

The issue seems to be you don't actually think character development is a real thing or can be executed well, which makes me question how you can enjoy any story that isn't intentionally static, let alone one like this, but that's another can of worms.

Edit: And as for the point about their being no "end", there's no end in real life either because no one ever is, or can be, perfect. That we can't be perfect doesn't mean we shouldn't try to be better.

[zimmerwald1915]

Because a story like that doesn't necessarily need a definitive "yes" or "no" conclusion. The point, I think, isn't even if V can make up for what they've done; it's that they've acknowledge they need to, trying to become a better person, and to working on it.

That happened. In Book V. If nothing more needs to, or can be, said or shown or done, she should have been written out then. Save everyone the trouble of dealing with a useless character for two books.

[KorvinStarmast]

This isn't actually a counterargument to what I said.

Let go of your hatred for V, a comic book character. V's ending isn't "and V lived happily ever after" but is rather "V went off to another quest, while the others didn't have to since they had not sinned so horribly and so deeply." (The case of Belkar already being addressed as dead before book VII is over, or something close to it).

PS: It is inane to suggest that V be "written out" before V has had to pay the bill to the IFCC the next two times. Remember, V owes that debt still. There will be a cost. Things with a cost, and payment, are often of significant narrative interest.

Let go of your hate.

[zimmerwald1915]

Let go of your hatred for V, a comic book character. V's ending isn't "and V lived happily ever after" but is rather "V went off to another quest, while the others didn't have to since they had not sinned so horribly and so deeply."

And why couldn't we have had that years ago, instead of after two books' worth of nothing?

[KorvinStarmast]

And why couldn't we have had that years ago, instead of after two books' worth of nothing?

Because the story is about a team. V is part of a team. A flawed part, an imperfect part, but as with any good team

The Whole is Greater Than The Sum of Its Parts

That's why. The Order of the Stick is a Team.

[zimmerwald1915]

Because the story is about a team. V is part of a team.

Not that you'd know it to look at their daily lives.

[KorvinStarmast]

Not that you'd know it to look at their daily lives.

Your problems with perspective are your own. Let's revisit this in a year or so and see how things are going with V at that point.

[Kish]

Letting go of your hatred is a good way to never learn to shoot lightning bolts from your fingertips.

[jwhouk]

What's that quote of Tarquin's? "There's no happy ending. There's just a point where the storyteller stops talking."

[Rrmcklin]

I mean, while I find V's story and development interesting, I can understand others not really wanting to go along with it just because of the sheer scale and nature of their actions.

But even putting that aside Zimmerwald1915's take on character development and growth in general seems completely unreasonable, and I'd almost say intentionally so.

[Emanick]

Letting go of your hatred is a good way to never learn to shoot lightning bolts from your fingertips.

I dunno if that's true. It seems perfectly possible to be a successful wizard or sorcerer without being filled with hate. I'd certainly consider that path preferable to a hate-filled one.

[zimmerwald1915]

I dunno if that's true. It seems perfectly possible to be a successful wizard or sorcerer without being filled with hate. I'd certainly consider that path preferable to a hate-filled one.

Dorukan, Eugene, and Vaarsuvius would seem to present a decent set of counterexamples.