Okay, let me pitch Dominions 5 to you

[The Hellbug]

Broken Triangles seems cool, and our first pick is ready. Pangaea, Age of Bronze is the first nation to join the rebellion.

[lord_khaine]

Sorry for the delay in making out first pick.
We have some trouble getting words from our last member.

[Grif]

Sorry for the delay in making out first pick.
We have some trouble getting words from our last member.

Take your time.

[lord_khaine]

We are having trouble being decisive, and having trouble meeting all 4 at once for discussing the topic

edit.
Sorry again for the massive delay.
We are picking Marignon

[Olinser]

Our team will pick Marignon, Fiery Burning Sensation In Uncomfortable Places

[lord_khaine]

I guess the style is laid now ?
Why anyone would rebel i dont know now..

[Thrantar]

We claims Pelagia as our second pick.

[Glimbur]

We're not winning this one. Caelum and Jotunheim give up. That probably ends the pairs game unless Ulm really wants to go down swinging. I'll have more to say later.

[Sen isSaqqara]

That probably ends the pairs game unless Ulm really wants to go down swinging. I'll have more to say later.

Aha, YOU FOOLS! Yeah, I'm in to play to the end. Am I going to win? Heck no. Am I going to have fun losing? Well, there's a reason I play a lot of Dwarf Fortress.

[Glimbur]

That was a fun game and I learned a lot, especially about Caelum. Pluses: lots of A magic, great mobility. Minuses: troops are size 3 but with size 2 stats and HP. Best mages are old and therefore not as mobile.

My first mistake happened, as it usually does, turn 0. I should have gone for the Azi with lots of Fire and Death. I thought it would be handy to be able to summon the good and the bad guys, and it was, but with no native S or D income and very poor national access to both it was a bit greedy. Site searching with a disciple just takes too long to pay off compared to the immediate benefit of faster expansion with a three headed fire breathing dragon. I'm not convinced Regen was a good bless, maybe it paid off for Jotunheim.

Early game was ok, expanded a little slower than I hoped but that's how it goes. We got into a border tussle with Pangea that escalated to Agartha and Ys taking most of their land. I should have hammered out a plan with Vanheim so they would watch our back while we took more Pan and Abysia land. Researching Lightning Bolt, then Air Elementals, then Storm was ok but maybe I should go straight to Storm then Air elementals.

Mid game was a backstab by Marignon and fighting them off. Jotunheim did good work pushing them back despite a pretty serious bless on the knights. I took some elephants over mountains and eventually (nearly) killed Pythium. But I think I made strategic blunders that made it take longer than it really should have. I threw a lot of A gems at them, and lost more mages than I should have allowed. Bad troops came back to haunt me. I also decided to go for Construction 6 before Alteration 7, another mistake.

Late game we started too late fighting Agartha and Ys. By the time the war started we weren't going to be able to win it. This has happened to me before in my last Dom 4 disciple game, not sure how to prevent it in the future.

Good times, and I would be up for another game eventually. But I'm already starting one on a different forum so I'm not looking for a while. I'll probably hang around the thread and pretend to offer helpful advice though.

[Olinser]

Yep there is still a possibility we could win, but that would require probably concurrent major mistakes by Ys and Agartha and I don't think its very likely.

I think the real point the game turned on was the assault on the throne this last turn. If we had won and taken out the Ys disciple and mage force there I think we would have a reasonable chance of pushing back and taking the game, and I think that if we had the fight in different order we might have been able to take it, but having Caelum attack first and kill very little, then having the Jotun assault after that kind of put us in rough shape there. If Jotun had gone first I think we might have been able to take it and continue the game.

Regardless, good game overall. If Ulm wants to continue that's fine but we're going to go ahead and AI out, I'm going to be super busy over the next few days, but after this weekend does anybody want a rematch/start a new game of 2s disciples or another game?

[deuterio12]

I'll post a more detailed overview of our side of the game when I have the time, but for now some commenting:

Site searching with a disciple just takes too long to pay off compared to the immediate benefit of faster expansion with a three headed fire breathing dragon. I'm not convinced Regen was a good bless, maybe it paid off for Jotunheim.

Regen indeed not very good in humie HP troops. It was great in Dominions 4 when it also gave extra 8 HP to go along with it, not so much now.
And yeah if you're going to take a disciple with fancy paths, you better have a plan to find a way of getting the gems for it.

Early game was ok, expanded a little slower than I hoped but that's how it goes. We got into a border tussle with Pangea that escalated to Agartha and Ys taking most of their land. I should have hammered out a plan with Vanheim so they would watch our back while we took more Pan and Abysia land. Researching Lightning Bolt, then Air Elementals, then Storm was ok but maybe I should go straight to Storm then Air elementals.

Vanheim did backstab us almost instantly after we attacked Abysia. For a good chunk of the game we were fighting both them and Pangaea/Abyssia, and their valkyries and lighting spam killed many of my oracles, sacreds and summons before I managed to deal with them.

Mid game was a backstab by Marignon and fighting them off. Jotunheim did good work pushing them back despite a pretty serious bless on the knights.

To be honest Marignon's bless was kinda bad. Both solar weapons and magic weapons was way too much overlap. That they crumbled so easily to Jotun's magic-light armies is proof.

I also decided to go for Construction 6 before Alteration 7, another mistake.

Heh, really glad we decided to go the other way around. Fog Warriors is really, really good. Accept no substitutes if you have good air magic.

Late game we started too late fighting Agartha and Ys. By the time the war started we weren't going to be able to win it. This has happened to me before in my last Dom 4 disciple game, not sure how to prevent it in the future.

Well you already kinda covered that:

I took some elephants over mountains and eventually (nearly) killed Pythium. But I think I made strategic blunders that made it take longer than it really should have. I threw a lot of A gems at them, and lost more mages than I should have allowed. Bad troops came back to haunt me.

In dominions it's not good enough to win, you need to win in a fast and/efficient manner. Phyrric victories will cost you down the line, as well as getting bogged down. If you had backstabbed us even a couple turns earlier we would've been in much worse shape to counter you.

Also develop your magic. Caelum did good in that, but there is no excuse for Jotun to lag behind so much.

Yep there is still a possibility we could win, but that would require probably concurrent major mistakes by Ys and Agartha and I don't think its very likely.

I think the real point the game turned on was the assault on the throne this last turn. If we had won and taken out the Ys disciple and mage force there I think we would have a reasonable chance of pushing back and taking the game, and I think that if we had the fight in different order we might have been able to take it, but having Caelum attack first and kill very little, then having the Jotun assault after that kind of put us in rough shape there. If Jotun had gone first I think we might have been able to take it and continue the game.

I'll agree Caelum charging in first was to our advantage, but if Jotun had charged first they would've inflicted light casualities too because they would be facing Fog Warriors, and I would give solid odds of Ys holding against Caelum.

More in particular Ys forgot to load extra gems in their mages, in which case they would've been able to cast Fog Warriors in both battles for an almost sure win in both.

It's my belief the real turning point had already kinda passed in Jotun lagging so behind in research. You need good magic to back up your troops to properly compete in late game dominions. Even regenerating berserk giants will only go so far as you saw.

Also I must ask, why so many indie blowpipes???

Regardless, good game overall. If Ulm wants to continue that's fine but we're going to go ahead and AI out, I'm going to be super busy over the next few days, but after this weekend does anybody want a rematch/start a new game of 2s disciples or another game?

I quite enjoyed this one so I would be up for another round yes.

Aha, YOU FOOLS! Yeah, I'm in to play to the end. Am I going to win? Heck no. Am I going to have fun losing? Well, there's a reason I play a lot of Dwarf Fortress.

We won't keep you waiting for long, soon our master plan shall be completed!

[Nadevoc]

Yeah, I learned a ton. I don't think I'll ever be great at the game - I just don't have the attention to detail for that, especially when playing a game - but it's been a lot of fun.

Overview of the game from my end (I'm sure deutorio will have stuff to add, and I'm probably misremembering parts):

I went with Ys because my first choice (Pangaea) had already been taken, and no one had taken any water nations yet. So I figured it would give me a nice security blanket if people couldn't even reach my capital early, and Ys seemed fairly straightforward and decent on land as well. We paired it with Agartha since they've got amphibious guys and could join me under the sea if necessary.

Early expansion went pretty decently thanks to the Earth Serpent (that thing is crazy good early). I did mess up and get him killed off by barbarians at the end of our expansion, though, which kinda sucked. Fortunately, by that point I'd managed to get a fort set up on one end of the bridge to Pangaea, plus grab provinces down to the smaller sea to the south (although I still haven't managed to actually conquer those provinces - other stuff kept coming up).

We debated who to go after and settled on Panbyssia because they had a ton of land, but not so much in terms of army (sounds like probably due to fighting with Caelum/Jotun). I got to unleash my M'v'whatsit Knights, and it turns out that they can be really nasty raiders, especially near water. With Glamour, Sailing, and being amphibious, they could be basically wherever I wanted, which was awesome. That was pretty much the key element for me. I did lock them up for a few turns sieging a fort, which wasn't too wise, but by that point they'd already managed to grab like half of Panbyssia's land through our sneak attack so it turned out alright. Managed to push back Pangaea's assault at my land fort at the chokepoint, and then we pushed back to finish that fight up. Agartha was able to deal with Abyssia and Vanheim without any real help from me, so that was great.

I was really worried that Caelum/Jotun would strike while we were busy dealing with Panbyssia and Van/Ulm, but you guys gave us just enough time. Even like 2-3 turns earlier and it could've been really bad for us. Plus, honestly, Van's stale turns probably helped us a ton.

Last turn was pretty huge. I got a bit lucky in repelling both armies (especially since I didn't load up my sorceress with enough gems to Fog Warriors twice since I figured she'd just blow them all in the first battle - realize now that I need to make use of the Conservative Gem Use box!). Also helped that Caelum got a bit greedy and attacked two other provinces at the same time.

@Jotun: Is there a reason that you were so insistent on having scouts on my fort next to the Throne of the Sun? I was catching one every second or third turn for a while there.

[Olinser]

I'll post a more detailed overview of our side of the game when I have the time, but for now some commenting:


Regen indeed not very good in humie HP troops. It was great in Dominions 4 when it also gave extra 8 HP to go along with it, not so much now.
And yeah if you're going to take a disciple with fancy paths, you better have a plan to find a way of getting the gems for it.


Vanheim did backstab us almost instantly after we attacked Abysia. For a good chunk of the game we were fighting both them and Pangaea/Abyssia, and their valkyries and lighting spam killed many of my oracles, sacreds and summons before I managed to deal with them.


To be honest Marignon's bless was kinda bad. Both solar weapons and magic weapons was way too much overlap. That they crumbled so easily to Jotun's magic-light armies is proof.



Heh, really glad we decided to go the other way around. Fog Warriors is really, really good. Accept no substitutes if you have good air magic.



Well you already kinda covered that:


In dominions it's not good enough to win, you need to win in a fast and/efficient manner. Phyrric victories will cost you down the line, as well as getting bogged down. If you had backstabbed us even a couple turns earlier we would've been in much worse shape to counter you.

Also develop your magic. Caelum did good in that, but there is no excuse for Jotun to lag behind so much.


I'll agree Caelum charging in first was to our advantage, but if Jotun had charged first they would've inflicted light casualities too because they would be facing Fog Warriors, and I would give solid odds of Ys holding against Caelum.

More in particular Ys forgot to load extra gems in their mages, in which case they would've been able to cast Fog Warriors in both battles for an almost sure win in both.

It's my belief the real turning point had already kinda passed in Jotun lagging so behind in research. You need good magic to back up your troops to properly compete in late game dominions. Even regenerating berserk giants will only go so far as you saw.

Also I must ask, why so many indie blowpipes???



I quite enjoyed this one so I would be up for another round yes.



We won't keep you waiting for long, soon our master plan shall be completed!

The short answer on the blowpipes is that they're cheap and I built up a lot of them anticipating Pythium Hydras and they're pretty good against high-defense knights, but he never actually sent Hydras against me until Caelum came over the mountains.

Blowpipes is the main reason I was able to push back against Marignon's first couple assaults.

And yes, very aware magic was lacking, but I had to pull most of my mages to keep Pythium and Marignon tarpitted while Caelum built up to go over the mountains, so it took me quite a while to start getting magic research back on track.

[deuterio12]

So, here's my more detailed report.

As Nadevoc said, he went with a water nation to make sure he was immune to rushing, and I went with Agartha for being amphibious. This also gave us solid coverage in all magic paths except blood.

My pretender was an awake Golden Pillar with 5 Earth so we could get the +5 protection bless. Immobile, but really cheap so we could grab full money scales too. It made my Shard Guard really good at expanding on their own, would combo well with Agartha's statues and even Ys awake snake, Morgen Knights enjoyed it and would help our mages not die of random arrows.

Our expansion went pretty well until Ys snake first death, which I blame myself partially since I was the one advising him to go for the barbarian province, which would've probably been fine worked in Dominions 4, but in 5 two-handed weapons get a significant damage bonus. Plus said province was outside of our dominion so Jimmy the snake didn't get to benefit from our bless either, whelp. However the awake snake had already paid for themselves with a bunch of extra provinces so Ys could start setting up their infrastructure.

As we ran out of indie provinces and met our neighbours, some diplomacy happened negotiating borders, everything seemed to be going as usual, until we noticed that Pangaea/Abysia were at a quite early war with Caelum/Jotun. This seemed the perfect moment for some cunning brutality! We decided to backstab Abysia/Pangaea for several reasons:
-We had a pretty big border with them, in particular Pangaea having a lot of coast.
-Despite having a really good expansion, Abysia had only done so by investing heavily in mercenaries, meaning they had little in terms of an actual army.
-We really didn't want to go to war against Jotun/Caelum since half of Agartha's forces hate the cold.

Didn't strike right away however, instead first positioning our armies accross the borders to maximize surprise. So when we struck, we struck hard, taking multiple provinces in one turn with little resistance and cracking Abysia's first fort. Which they had placed just whitin 2 provinces from my capital so they were kinda asking for it.

I'll repeat it for good measure, building a fort two provinces away from somebody else's capital is basically as good as a declaration of war, and you'll probably lose if you let them fortify it properly.

Abysia still had a nasty surprise in the form of their assassins hiding inside their forts, but I'm really paranoid so all my sieging commanders had full bodyguards. Ys lost some, but then recruited some Morgen Champions which along sacred knight bodyguards were as good as immune to assassins too.

As we liberated Abysia's lands, we noticed they had been quite unlucky with their starting position, in particular the Throne of Winter itself right next to Abysia's cap. That's really the last throne Abysia wants to see so close as it spawns cold-generating sites and Abysia hates the cold more than any other nation.

Abysia would resist for some more time, but losing two forts with labs was an huge hit for them and a massive boon for us.

Everything was clearly going too well to be true so Vanheim/Ulm decided to crash our party. Luckily they seemed to consider that building up extra forts was for weaklings, instead having massive amounts of PD in their lands, so their troop production was limited. However Vanheim is rightly feared as the rush nation and their sacreds hit really hard early game, in particular Valkyries with Dominions 5' flying buffs making them home into commanders with deadly precision.

Ulm however can't really do much with only one fort as all their troops are pretty expensive resource wise. Plus their expansion didn't seem to go that well. The two initial armies they sent against us were quickly destroyed and they struggled to rebuild. For the rest of the game Ulm would only mount a couple real armies, neither lasted very long.

Ys had to slow down their attack on Pangaea to push back Ulm, but when counter attacking Ulm to capture a fat golds plain with a 5 gem site!!!

I spent a lot of turns then dividing my attention between Abysia and Vanheim. Ys did help me quite a bit with their raiding knights, in particular managing to lure Vanheim's main army of 50 valkyries in a merry chase accross their lands for several turns, giving me precious time to consolidate my forces and finally siege Abysia's cap.

Pangaea meanwhile managed to rebuild a big nasty army and started pushing back Ys all the way to their own fort, which they managed to crack, but Ys succeeded in rallying an army to destroy them at the last moment. It was one of those crucial do or die moments and I was quite proud of him.

However the problem lingered that Pangaea's cap had their vile statue of war guarding it, and even Morgen Knights wouldn't be able to take it down due to its insane defense and HP. So I taught Nadevoc about the magic of Gifts from Heaven for when you want positively absolutely to crush something.

So soon after I finally took Abysia's cap Ys was charging at Pangaea with like 40 morgen knights and a big army.

Alas Gifts from Heaven have a really poor precision so Ys ended up killing most of their knights. However Destiny was clearly in our side since Ys mages refused to take a step back and kept raining meteors until all that was left of Pangaea's fake god being a pile of rubble in the middle of a field of mangled bodies.

It was me who took actual sieging duty since Ys didn't have much troops left, but I gave it back to them since it was a coastal fort and they had done the hard work.

Meanwhile I was finally pushing back Vanheim, in particular thanks to magma children. Where my stone robots and even Mercury elementals had failed to secure a decisive victory, the magma children laughed at glamour, burned anyone who struck them, and could be spammed at the rate of 5 per 2 gems and mage turn.

Did I mention I had taken Abysia's lands and was basically swimming in fire gems? For the rest of the game I was pumping 30+magma children every turn, proving a really great complement to my armies.

Also they seemed to act like natural lighting rods in that Vanheim's (and later Caelum's) air mages loved to target them first, buying time for my heavy troops and robots to close in for the kill.

Abysia and Pangaea were finally secured, and Vanheim was being pushed back. However Caelum/Jotun were getting pretty big too, and if they had decided to backstab us then our worn out armies would've been really out of position. Luckily Pythium and Marignon seemed to be putting up a good resistance, but the prospect of facing Caelum/Jotun in their cold lands didn't seem very attractive.

However I saw a path to victory that didn't need of fighting Caelum/Jotunheim: a game of thrones! We had enough thrones close by that if we grabbed them all the match would be ours. Thanks to Agartha's capital scrying I could identify the thrones in each province and formulated a plan with Ys. They finally properly invaded Ulm to secure the throne of Earth while my oracles spread around among our forts, preparing to capture them all in one move to don't reveal our hand too soon.

The final pieces would be the throne of the Sun and the throne of Destiny, each worth a whooping 3 points. Our initial plan was that Ys would hit one with their snake and I would hit the other, then capture them all in one turn for a sudden victory. Surprise was essential since the throne of the Sun was right next to Jotun's capital so they would be able to quickly rally for a counter attack.

Alas my force screwed up and got beaten by the throne of Destiny's guardians, in particular a small army of will o wisps that my stone robots struggled to hit and my mages refused to target.

So Ys was left to hold the throne of the Sun for at least 2 turns while I borrowed Pangaea again to rebuild my forces and have another go.

In the meanwhile Ulm had an army charge across half the map straight at my capital. That got me a bit by surprise since it didn't make much strategic sense, but then crushed them easily enough.

Ys went into full defensive mode, while my armies were now free to rampage around since my thrones were heavily fortified. Caelum and Jotun bled themselves dry against our armies, and wisely surrendered before our unstoppable might.

And now I've secured the throne of Destiny's province. I will also be capturing the throne of pestilence and winter and stars. Even if Ulm manages to retake the throne of Earth from Ys, we'll still have enough points for the win.

Critique of our brave opponents:

Spoiler

Show

Abysia-Really bad starting position, spent too much in mercenaries, got themselves in an early war that left them greatly exposed. Starting a war with another player before the first year is even over isn't really a very good idea, in particular since even if you win, your develoment will probably have been critically crippled.

Pangaea-Their starting position wasn't stellar either with two heavily defended thrones. Even then they had some nice choke points so could've played a bit more defensively.

Vanheim-Should've rushed earlier. Again, Vanheim is the rush nation, and their late game kinda sucks due to their mages being really inneficient for research. Still did some pretty nasty damage to my forces, but by then I could just produce armies faster than they could kill them.

Ulm-Way too defensive. Spent huge amounts of gold in PD and took too long to start making forts, which Ulm wants as many as possible to pump out their heavy infantry. Also black plate infantry should be for only late game when you got a big empire, otherwise you'll never have enough bodies to hold the line. Somehow had the top research in the game (I guess they mass produced research boosters), but luckily didn't seem to go for any of the big army buffs which may've made their armies really scary. Would've probably benefited from an awake expander to go along Vanheim's snake since Ulm has trouble pumping out expansion armies before getting a 2nd fort. Although taking a cold blooded snake along cold dominion may've not been the best decision either.

Marignon-Didn't saw much of them, but seemingly screwed up their research, and their bless was suboptimal too as both magic weapons and solar weapons are situational at best on their own, let alone together. Like Ulm, really needed to set up a good fort infrastructure to mass produce paladins and crossbowmen and mages, which they didn't and ended up drowned in blowpipes. Also ended up outmaneuvered bu Jotun and getting their cap locked.

Pythium-Didn't saw much of them either, but held quite a long time and even when going down slowed down Caelum, enduring to the end even as AI. Considering how fast their teammate crumbled, seems to have done a good job.

Caelum-Probably the player I most feared for the game. Getting stronger and stronger almost every turn, lighting spam, air elementals, tons of flying magic lances. Luckily by blind luck shrewd diplomacy managed to keep peace with them until it was too late to stop us. If anything I would say their main flaw was overextending since they often spread their forces too thin, plus over-investment in Caelum's sacred summons. They're nice I guess, but also cost a lot of gems which you may not even get, and indeed a monster disciple benefiting from their regen bless may've helped them better.

Jotunheim-Good troop control, but really too many indies. Jotunheim can recruit 7 gold goblins if they really need chaff, and said goblins are not even undisciplined. Also way too many national commanders recruited and too few mages. It's no good to cripple your research ability to try to defeat one enemy if there is another opponent waiting with high level magic. May've tried to negotiate peace with either of their opponents to get some breathing room. Also should've secured the throne right next to their cap earlier. Their wolf rider harassing was quite nasty however. Basically needs to plan for the long run, not only the short.

[lord_khaine]

Marignon-Didn't saw much of them, but seemingly screwed up their research, and their bless was suboptimal too as both magic weapons and solar weapons are situational at best on their own, let alone together. Like Ulm, really needed to set up a good fort infrastructure to mass produce paladins and crossbowmen and mages, which they didn't and ended up drowned in blowpipes. Also ended up outmaneuvered bu Jotun and getting their cap locked.

Was not an outmaneuver. It was a risky gamble in a desperate situation, that unfortunately failed. More forts would not have helped either. Gold was the limiting factor, not production spots.
Am not certain what the research strategy were. But though both Flaming arrows and terracotta army provided solid value.

[houlio]

If y'all are thinking about starting another game besides the big team game, I'd also be interested in joining.

[Grif]

Speaking of, none of us did a AAR for the 4v4 yet, right?

[lord_khaine]

Oh no.. yeah.. will try and make at least a short one if i can find the time.. and remember the details.. dam.. wish i had made a log of it.

[deuterio12]

Was not an outmaneuver. It was a risky gamble in a desperate situation, that unfortunately failed. More forts would not have helped either. Gold was the limiting factor, not production spots.
Am not certain what the research strategy were. But though both Flaming arrows and terracotta army provided solid value.

Forts do increase gold income of the province by a percentage equal to the administration bonus. Not that significant for your average province yes, but the right farm or gold mine can get a nice boost.

And I find it hard to believe you were that gold starved when Marignon has several 10 gold 20+resource heavy infantry options to make good use of extra forts. Knights of the chalice are cool and stuff, but line infantry is important too to, well, hold the line. I guess that was a critical fault in Marignon/Pythium plan, spamming knights is a late game strategy because indeed an early economy cannot sustain full production of them in two forts. Less knights but more forts and more heavy infantry and things may've turned quite different.

Not to mention, with just two forts Marignon ended up quite vulnerable to being completely locked out of income (and production).

Setting up forts early and often is critical. I believe one of they key factors for our victory was precisely managing to stay ahead in number of forts all game long, meaning even when some got sieged I was still able to pump out reinforcements. Caelum was second in forts pretty much all the time, just behind us. Those were not coincidences.

[lord_khaine]

Forts do increase gold income of the province by a percentage equal to the administration bonus. Not that significant for your average province yes, but the right farm or gold mine can get a nice boost.

And I find it hard to believe you were that gold starved when Marignon has several 10 gold 20+resource heavy infantry options to make good use of extra forts. Knights of the chalice are cool and stuff, but line infantry is important too to, well, hold the line. I guess that was a critical fault in Marignon/Pythium plan, spamming knights is a late game strategy because indeed an early economy cannot sustain full production of them in two forts. Less knights but more forts and more heavy infantry and things may've turned quite different.

Not to mention, with just two forts Marignon ended up quite vulnerable to being completely locked out of income (and production).

Setting up forts early and often is critical. I believe one of they key factors for our victory was precisely managing to stay ahead in number of forts all game long, meaning even when some got sieged I was still able to pump out reinforcements. Caelum was second in forts pretty much all the time, just behind us. Those were not coincidences.

Hmm.. i do suspect that bonus is so small it wont matter most of the time. At least not unless your on a gold mine.
But yeah, inheritet a moderately sized force of knights and crossbowmen. The Knights seemed pretty badass, and it was rather easy to dump all my gold into recruting a bit of those as well as crossbow men and mages.

You are wrong about the last bit though. Marignon did not have much spare place to put down another fort that would also need defending.
And by the time those were locked down the final, decisive battle had already been lost. A gamble had been taken in a losing war against waves after wave of berserker giants.
The last fort had actually not been taken though. It was torn down to deny as many resources as possible to the enemy

[deuterio12]

Invincible Stone Fortress Pedra Z, the Everlasting Father, the Foundation, Master of Might, King of Kings is officially victorious! Justice has prevailed once more!

Oh, and a reason to stick to the end even if you feel like you can win, you get a full view of the map including magic sites plus a "view history" option that shows the map progression over the whole game.

So yeah Marignon screwed up during the expansion phase. Before backstabbing Jotunheim they only had 7 provinces and then tried to rush straight to Jotun's capital, leaving themselves open to be surrounded by Caelum. Pythium didn't expand much better, seemingly with only 10 provinces before the war.

I guess that's an even more important lesson, before anything else you need a good expansion plan. First year grab as much land as possible so you can set up forts and develop proper infrastructure (or rush somebody else).

[Nadevoc]

Whoo! Victory!

Holding onto two thrones that were within a tile of enemy capitals at the end there was a huge pain. Pretty much all of my troops for the last half year or so were going to one of those two provinces. Really felt like it was causing me to stagnate, and it was just a matter of time before I crumbled. Glad we managed to pick up the last throne before that happened. I'm pretty sure that we still would've won by just grinding it out, but much quicker this way.

Fog Warriors really is crazy strong on giant armies like I had parked on each of those thrones.

[Glimbur]

Did you pack some scouts with extra gems? I like to bring spare gems especially for such an important spell. You can put then on your mage but they might spend them and putting them on another commander risks random death. Just watch for the random event where bandits try to kill your gem caddy.

[Nadevoc]

I actually had a lab in both provinces. Ulm was kind enough to set up one on the Throne of Earth before I got there. And I had a fort/lab right next door to the Throne of the Sun, so for a few turns I was just ferrying gems back and forth, but I didn't want to rely on that because it would be so easy for Caelum (or potentially Jotunheim) to lay siege to the empty fort. Significant gold investment, but it guaranteed my gem supply line. Plus let the 20ish mages I had there research/cast ritual spells once they'd done enough preaching to establish dominion.

[Olinser]

Invincible Stone Fortress Pedra Z, the Everlasting Father, the Foundation, Master of Might, King of Kings is officially victorious! Justice has prevailed once more!

Oh, and a reason to stick to the end even if you feel like you can win, you get a full view of the map including magic sites plus a "view history" option that shows the map progression over the whole game.

So yeah Marignon screwed up during the expansion phase. Before backstabbing Jotunheim they only had 7 provinces and then tried to rush straight to Jotun's capital, leaving themselves open to be surrounded by Caelum. Pythium didn't expand much better, seemingly with only 10 provinces before the war.

I guess that's an even more important lesson, before anything else you need a good expansion plan. First year grab as much land as possible so you can set up forts and develop proper infrastructure (or rush somebody else).

Actually the play-by-play of what really killed Marignon was initially he tried to rush my capital, moving straight forward with a very large knight force, but failed to put any PD in the provinces he conquered - I mean ZERO. So a single scout took a single province back that cut off the other provinces he took from income (this was something like a 500 income swing between us and that was a LARGE difference being much earlier in the game), so he had to turn around and re-secure that.

The move the really sealed it for Marignon though was I had previously pumped up the PD in the swamp province (that soon after that I built a fort on), in order to stop a much smaller army of his from taking provinces concurrent with his main force, and successfully beat it back with just that PD.

But when he turned around to re-take the province that had cut off the income, he decided to assault that PDed up swamp province instead of going back along his previously-taken provinces. And that was where I had moved my main giant force that was trying to cut him off.

So he tried to assalt a 35 PD blowpipe province with a reasonably big giant force in front of it and he got just slaughtered. Then I was able to push forward 1 province and set up a strong point aided by the cavalry archer PD there, and that was basically never broken. I killed I think... 3? Pythium/Marignon armies in that province before Caelum was able to basically conquer Pythium, and then I was able to move forward and take the Marignon capital.

Unfortunately in order to do all of that stabilizing I had had to pull the bulk of my mages off research for blood hunting/imp summoning to turn the tide, and it took me just too long to recover so my research was far behind for most of the game. I was able to get Brood of Garm going in still a reasonable amount of time but just had no real combat spells for most of the game.

[deuterio12]

Actually the play-by-play of what really killed Marignon was initially he tried to rush my capital, moving straight forward with a very large knight force, but failed to put any PD in the provinces he conquered - I mean ZERO. So a single scout took a single province back that cut off the other provinces he took from income (this was something like a 500 income swing between us and that was a LARGE difference being much earlier in the game), so he had to turn around and re-secure that.

Now that you mention it Vanheim also left several provinces with 0 PD when going after me so I was able to retake them with scout snipes. Pangaea slipped with some too.

So another key lesson is always put at least 1 PD in every province otherwise a sneaky scout can take them.

The move the really sealed it for Marignon though was I had previously pumped up the PD in the swamp province (that soon after that I built a fort on), in order to stop a much smaller army of his from taking provinces concurrent with his main force, and successfully beat it back with just that PD.

But when he turned around to re-take the province that had cut off the income, he decided to assault that PDed up swamp province instead of going back along his previously-taken provinces. And that was where I had moved my main giant force that was trying to cut him off.

So he tried to assalt a 35 PD blowpipe province with a reasonably big giant force in front of it and he got just slaughtered. Then I was able to push forward 1 province and set up a strong point aided by the cavalry archer PD there, and that was basically never broken. I killed I think... 3? Pythium/Marignon armies in that province before Caelum was able to basically conquer Pythium, and then I was able to move forward and take the Marignon capital.

Yeah, if you know a province is heavily defended, you may want to look for softer targets, in particular since PD can't move around.

That's why we never bothered finishing Ulm, they had crazy high PD at their forts and just wouldn't be worth the effort when there were easier targets (like the throne of Earth).

Unfortunately in order to do all of that stabilizing I had had to pull the bulk of my mages off research for blood hunting/imp summoning to turn the tide, and it took me just too long to recover so my research was far behind for most of the game. I was able to get Brood of Garm going in still a reasonable amount of time but just had no real combat spells for most of the game.

Yet, you had a crazy number of Jotun jarls running around from what I saw.

You could've built up a Vaetti Hag research force. Sure, they have a small research penalty, but their cheap 40 gold cost more than makes up for it. You can recruit 3 Hags for cheaper than a single jarl! If your forts had been pumping out hags instead of jarls you would've been in a much better shape.

And again if you wanted chaff, why not goblins vaetti? Only 7 gold and 3 resources each. Sure 9 morale. but so do woodsman blowpipes since they're undisciplined. Vaetti can take orders and bring shields too and 9 strength+spears hit better than 10 strength+daggers.

[Olinser]

Now that you mention it Vanheim also left several provinces with 0 PD when going after me so I was able to retake them with scout snipes. Pangaea slipped with some too.

So another key lesson is always put at least 1 PD in every province otherwise a sneaky scout can take them.


Yeah, if you know a province is heavily defended, you may want to look for softer targets, in particular since PD can't move around.

That's why we never bothered finishing Ulm, they had crazy high PD at their forts and just wouldn't be worth the effort when there were easier targets (like the throne of Earth).



Yet, you had a crazy number of Jotun jarls running around from what I saw.

You could've built up a Vaetti Hag research force. Sure, they have a small research penalty, but their cheap 40 gold cost more than makes up for it. You can recruit 3 Hags for cheaper than a single jarl! If your forts had been pumping out hags instead of jarls you would've been in a much better shape.

And again if you wanted chaff, why not goblins vaetti? Only 7 gold and 3 resources each. Sure 9 morale. but so do woodsman blowpipes since they're undisciplined. Vaetti can take orders and bring shields too and 9 strength+spears hit better than 10 strength+daggers.

You can't, though. The problem with Vaetti is that they are certainly cheap, they still take 2 commander points, so you can only get 1 per turn, and they research penalty is big enough that they are actually LESS gold efficient researchers than Gygjas. Which means that while the gold cost is much cheaper, you can still ACTUALLY only get 1 Vaetti per turn. So you should only get Vaetti if you can't afford to get Gygjas, which take the same 2 commander points but after the penalty have almost 4x as much research.

Vaetti are only effective researchers if you are able to forge and give them something like a Lightless Lantern (which I did have some of), otherwise they are one of the worst researchers in the game. If they were only 1 commander point they would probably be OP, though, because you could spam them out so easily.

What also really hurt my mage recruitment was my capital only had 2 commander points on it. So it was basically a choice - 1 Vaetti per turn there or 1 Gygja a turn, and most of the time I went with Gygja.

[deuterio12]

You can't, though. The problem with Vaetti is that they are certainly cheap, they still take 2 commander points, so you can only get 1 per turn, and they research penalty is big enough that they are actually LESS gold efficient researchers than Gygjas. Which means that while the gold cost is much cheaper, you can still ACTUALLY only get 1 Vaetti per turn. So you should only get Vaetti if you can't afford to get Gygjas, which take the same 2 commander points but after the penalty have almost 4x as much research.

1 hag is 40 gold for 5 research.
1 Gygja is 225 gold for 15 research.

You only need 120 gold worth of hags to match the Gygja's research ability.

And even if Gygjas were more cost efficient, they're still cap only. It's insane to expect to have anything resembling a proper research force with only your cap mages. Not to mention blood hunting potential. A blood 1 hag is just as good as finding slaves as a blood 1 Gygja. Ditto for item forging and battle buffing. Hags can build plenty of cheap trinkets and provide solid support in battle.

Vaetti are only effective researchers if you are able to forge and give them something like a Lightless Lantern (which I did have some of), otherwise they are one of the worst researchers in the game. If they were only 1 commander point they would probably be OP, though, because you could spam them out so easily.

Just grab some magic scales and they become extremely cost efficient.

Besides it's not like Jotun has a lot of options. It's either hags or skratti, and skratti are even more expensive than gygjas and 4 commander points each.

You can also drop a lab in a forest and recruit them with no need of a fort. Bit slow, but cheap and will really build up over time.

What also really hurt my mage recruitment was my capital only had 2 commander points on it. So it was basically a choice - 1 Vaetti per turn there or 1 Gygja a turn, and most of the time I went with Gygja.

In your cap. But you had other forts. Which were pumping out jarls instead of mages.

Cap should be pumping gygjas yes, they're jotun's best mage and you want as many of them as possible, but your other forts (and any forest you managed to grab) should've been pumping hags to back them up. You can't hope to win a dominions game if you're pumping out only mages from your cap, unless you're going for an all out rush.

[Olinser]

For the upcoming game our team with take Caelum