The Wall of Fear: A Complete Guide to the Oath of Conquest

[Sception]

Bard, Sorcerer and Warlock multiclassing can all give you this in a variety of ways. The flying part is slightly harder, but all three have access to Fly + one other way of gaining flight (magical secrets, growing wings and familiar carrying you).

they can... but only after several extra levels of investment. The paladin gets this only one level after an asi, which was one level after IDS, which was one level after aura of courage, etc etc etc. Just like other classes also can grant Fear, they can even cast it better with either short rest recharges via warlock or metamagic boosts via sorcerer, but even if you jump out right after aura of conquest, you're still waiting at least 2-3 levels longer to get access to Fear at all, and you're delaying ASIs in an ASI starved build, and you're missing out on aura of courage and IDS in the mean time.

You can wait until aura of courage and then multiclass out into bard, content that you'll be able to pick up fly and not worry about improved find steed... except that the straight conqueror had their pegasus two levels before you can cast fly - as a concentration spell, which means you can't even use it with Wrathful Smite or Fear so what's even the point - and in the mean time they also had an asi two levels earlier and IDS and cleansing touch, and the level 15 reprisal damage.

You have some great other features as well - bardic inspiration is great, you've got some other solid spells, bard cantrips have some gems. You're definitely more versatile, but you aren't getting the same small but relevant boosts to the conquering play style with each and every level, and that makes it hard for a conqueror to multiclass out unless the character concept was more than just conquering to begin with.

Starting as a Sorcerer also nets you con saves, potentially saving you a feat.

Something to consider in a diced stats game where you roll unusually well, or in a game where the DM handwaves away stat requirements. In a point buy or standard array game that does use the multiclass requirements, though, losing heavy armor is too big a trade, imo. Sorcadins are great, and that includes conquest sorcadins, but nine times out of ten, I'd still put the paladin levels in the front, and just accept that that means I'll be burning an asi on concentration mitigation sooner or later. Honestly, sorcadin has a strong enough justification to take warcaster anyway that I wouldn't generally worry about proficiency. Decent con plus max cha plus advantage is generally going to cover you.

The bard combo is very much worth a think as well and is relatively stronger for Conquest than for the other subclasses due to the extra value gotten from Expertise and Jack of All Trades. Almost all of the bard subclasses have something to offer (steer away from Valor though).

Bard is great, and bard/conqueror multiclasses well. There's a lot of versatility there, role play works well, and the bard's support features mesh well with the conqueror's zone control/tanking business. I absolutely agree that this is a great multiclass. But...

But neither bard nor conqueror really needs or even particularly wants to multiclass at all (excepting a hex dip in the case of conquerors, and i guess maybe sword bards). The 'some of each' multiclass character that results from combining the two is certainly viable and fun, but you're taking a big hit from the bard side in reduced slots and slowed spells known progression - 5e bards are, after all, primary spellcasters first and foremost, and you're taking a smaller but still discernible hit to conqueror in terms of lost and delayed conquest features - even the features you still get back in some form from bard are still delayed.

[Perlywhirly]

Yeah the trick is that you look af your next level and say “I could take this multiclass and after 3 levels I’ll have a nice payoff, OR I can take this next conquest paladin level and be happy now.” Like if you were starting at level 12, you can definitely make a super strong case for going 7 Conquest / 5 Sorc or Lock because you don’t have those pain levels of delayed gratification. But actually playing through each level, it’s hard to justify jumping ship.

[Corran]

4th level paladin spells is super relevant to the play style, because it gives you a flying mount to take the aura into the air. Risky of course due to the vulnerability of the mount, but still an important tool to have access to.

This is a very interesting thought. Does dropping the speed of flying creatures to 0 mean that they start falling? If it does, well, then maybe we are going into houserule territory regarding how this plays out, but at the very least it makes for a very interesting scene: Picture a conquest paladin on a Pegasus, flying through a formation of enemy fliers and making them start falling like flies.

Bard, Sorcerer and Warlock multiclassing can all give you this (ie dpr increase and a flying speed) in a variety of ways. The flying part is slightly harder, but all three have access to Fly + one other way of gaining flight (magical secrets, growing wings and familiar carrying you).

Added the part in red to make clear what you are talking about.
You are not wrong, but the major difference is that by sticking with paladin levels, you can get both of these without having to commit your concentration, and this is a very very big deal. And also, you get them both with minimal resource expenditure (if any; basically you only need to spend the slot for find greater steed, but you can do that during downtime most of the time).

[Perlywhirly]

This is a very interesting thought. Does dropping the speed of flying creatures to 0 mean that they start falling? If it does, well, then maybe we are going into houserule territory regarding how this plays out, but at the very least it makes for a very interesting scene: Picture a conquest paladin on a Pegasus, flying through a formation of enemy fliers and making them start falling like flies.

Quick google search pulls up this rule. On mobile so I don’t have my PHB ready to verify but still.

PHB p. 191

Flying Movement

If a flying creature is knocked prone, has its speed reduced to 0, or is otherwise deprived of the ability to move, the creature falls, unless it has the ability to hover or it is being held aloft by magic, such as by the fly spell.

-

Considering the speed of zero is only while in the Conquest Paladin’s aura, they probably regain their ability to fly before hitting the ground if they are sufficiently high?

[Skylivedk]

Added the part in red to make clear what you are talking about.
You are not wrong, but the major difference is that by sticking with paladin levels, you can get both of these without having to commit your concentration, and this is a very very big deal. And also, you get them both with minimal resource expenditure (if any; basically you only need to spend the slot for find greater steed, but you can do that during downtime most of the time).

I agree, flying without concentration is a big deal. Besides magic items and your team mates helping you ought with a buff, I did mention that all three of them could get fly on their own. It's worth noting that a small character can be carried by some of the familiars if they go Hexblade -> Chain, and they'd do so 3 levels before the Paladin, with more fear slots pr. day, invocations etc.

I know that it is not a perfect substitute, it just means, that it's not a no-brainer to go full Pala for this kind of tanking to work.

A level 7 Conquest Paladin / 3 Hexblade (Chain) later 5 Hexblade Chain will be able to do some fun stuff though. Such as auto-proning with crazy nova smites while being flown around. This might also be done with the level 6 Specter grabbing you and flying for 25 ft pr round.

Also, for this build, I'd recommend Grasp of Hadar rather than Repelling Blast. You want them within 10 feet, growling in front of your not so High, but ever so Mightiness.

The bard will be definitely be delayed in this sky-sweeping schtick (but can still get it 4 levels later) and certain sorcerers have other mobility options that are not quite flight but helps (Shadow, Storm). Also remember that while they are slower to get non-conc flight, they're quicker to get both Levitate, Fly and Dimension Door. Bard offers more non-magical lockdown through expertise, while sorcerer edges on magical tanking buffs and more versatility in terms of how to combine spells with other actions.

Having any of the flying races available naturally makes the whole dual/multiclassing a completely different proposition - which might be worth mentioning in the guide. Same goes for magic item heavy campaigns where the probability of getting flight through items is higher. My own groups would never build for that, but AL players might.

So yes, you make trades. In certain campaigns those trades are very very tempting, in others less so. To say the trades make you worse at your Fear-tanking is overplaying your hand IMO. They change the perspective of your tanking; accentuating other parts of it (survivability, freeing up ASIs, bigger threat and hence aggro grabbing, etc.)

[Perlywhirly]

I agree, flying without concentration is a big deal. Besides magic items and your team mates helping you ought with a buff, I did mention that all three of them could get fly on their own. It's worth noting that a small character can be carried by some of the familiars if they go Hexblade -> Chain, and they'd do so 3 levels before the Paladin, with more fear slots pr. day, invocations etc.

“More fear slots” won’t matter until level 12 in this case. There’s a huge disincentive to break from Conquest before snagging Fear. Going through levels 9 10 and 11 without access to your most important spell sounds miserable.

Being carried by your familiar as a Chain Pact Lock is pretty niche considering the races that can pull it off, plus the aforementioned delay of Fear.

[Skylivedk]

“More fear slots” won’t matter until level 12 in this case. There’s a huge disincentive to break from Conquest before snagging Fear. Going through levels 9 10 and 11 without access to your most important spell sounds miserable.

Being carried by your familiar as a Chain Pact Lock is pretty niche considering the races that can pull it off, plus the aforementioned delay of Fear.

Very very good point - and we're back to it being hard to leave the class early and multiclassing being a significant tradeoff. Of course you have other ways of imposing fear and the multiclassing gives you other lock down options, but yeah my flight obsession and my want to test the other ways to Rome, probably was a detour.

I could see myself play some of the other options happily (and enjoy expeditious retreat/long strider, Absorb Elements, shield, mirror image, web, shallow grave etc etc as part of my tanking toolbox), but I think you've made a strong case for the non-multiclass Paladin. Which makes me weirdly happy after so long defaulting to thinking Sorcadin > pure Paladin

[Sception]

Considering the speed of zero is only while in the Conquest Paladin’s aura, they probably regain their ability to fly before hitting the ground if they are sufficiently high?

If the creature can't hover & isnt flying magically, then the aura causes them to fall until they're out of the aura, then they immediately stop falling. So you can't crash flying enemies for significant falling damage this way. But you can use the pegasus's extremely fast fly speed to trail the target, effectively escorting them to the ground, at which point they will remain trapped and grounded.

A DM may or may not house rule some falling damage into such a maneuver, but mechanically what should happen is a rapid fire series of non-damaging 5' falls interrupting every 5' of your pegasus's move in pursuit of the falling foe, as they fall just far enough to leave your aura each time the mounts movement brings them in range of it.

A bit weird, but flying rules in 5e (and mounted combat tules for that matter) are a bit weird, so there you go.

[Edgerunner]

If the creature can't hover & isnt flying magically, then the aura causes them to fall until they're out of the aura, then they immediately stop falling. So you can't crash flying enemies for significant falling damage this way.

I would rule in an Athletics Check to recover flight and an additional 10' drop if they fail it but no more checks after the first.
Half damage if for some reason they do hit the bottom.

[Perlywhirly]

Paladin aura is 10ft in every direction, 30 at level 18. So that’s a 20ft drop or a 60ft drop. Not awful.

[Sception]

Paladin aura is 10ft in every direction, 30 at level 18. So that’s a 20ft drop or a 60ft drop. Not awful.

Paladin takes up a 5' space themselves, so 25/65 feet. Positioning to exploit that is awkward though, especially the 25' version. Unless the target is already within that range of the ground, you're going to end up in the 'trailing' situation, where they're only falling 5' at a time.

You also have to deal with the dual initiatives issue. In order to approach, cast fear, then continue trailing the target through its descent, you'll have to use the ready action, so that the spell lands during the pegasus's turn.

[Perlywhirly]

You also have to deal with the dual initiatives issue. In order to approach, cast fear, then continue trailing the target through its descent, you'll have to use the ready action, so that the spell lands during the pegasus's turn.

Actually gross. Flying sucks, mounted sucks, spell effects suck, why aren't we all playing Champion Fighters to not deal with this nonsense?


I guess you at least get the utility of forcing squadrons of fliers to the ground RAW, since they drop immediately as you move into range.

[Sception]

It's awkward, but it works well. Improved find steed is intelligent, so acts on its own with it's own actions and turn, you're just carried along for the ride. In play, goes like this:

Flying enemies are up to 100ish feet above.

On your turn you tell pegasus, 'let's bring them down' while you prepare readied action to cast Fear (or use CD, or fallen aasimar racial, or attack with your weapon after having cast wrathful smite as a bonus action earlier in your turn) once as many targets as possible are in range.

On its turn pegasus flies straight up 90' and you cast Fear (or whatever) on the way. Pegasus ends its move within aura range of targets that fail, and they immediately fall past you, stopping as soon as their speed returns upon exiting your aura. Pegasus then takes the dash action to fly 90' back down to the ground, pausing every 5' of the way as the targets interrupt its turn to fall 5' out of your aura range before stopping again.

After the pegasus's turn, the targets are now grounded and immobilized in your aura. They aren't damaged or prone (their final fall was only 5 feet), but they are now comfortably locked down in your melee range, their biggest tactical advantage negated, and you're not stuck using weak ranged options, nor are you trying to fight them in the air and risking a fatal fall yourself.


Mechanically its inelegant, because the 5e rules for mounts, flight, and falling are inelegant, but it works well and answers one of the build's more glaring weaknesses.

[Perlywhirly]

It's awkward, but it works well. Improved find steed is intelligent, so acts on its own with it's own actions and turn, you're just carried along for the ride.

Daddy Crawford has said that you can choose if your Find (Greater) Steed is independent or controlled when you are on it. I feel like there’s not much benefit to it being controlled if we are able to utilize the readied action... Wow the mounted rules are awful.

[Benny89]

Hi,

I am building a PAM Conquest Paladin using Dueling and Spear + Shield. V-uman. Will dip one level Hexblade after level 7.

I just wanted to ask- how useful in real-gameplay, not theorycrafting is Conquest Paladin?

What about enemies immune to fear? Enemies with Legendary Resistance? Is he useful apart from forcing a horde of mooks to be locked down and Wraithful Smite a middle-boss?

I just want to hear some real experience of playing one before I commit. Because while I love how he synergies with himself so much- I feel like he is one-trick-pony a little bit.

[Perlywhirly]

If by “one trick pony” you mean “has a strong core mechanic”, then yes the Conquest Paladin is absolutely a one trick pony.

Frightened is a great debuff and a unique tanking tool. The number of fear immune enemies aren’t incredibly common, actually. Constructs for the most part. Frightening zombies and other “mindless” enemies is hilarious because it totally works.

In the event that the enemy is fear immune, you are still a freaking Paladin. A Paladin with maxed Charisma giving your team a juicy bonus to saves. The base class is strong enough that even without being able to fear you are perfectly capable. And chances are you won’t be fighting swarms of frear immune baddies, unless your DM is sadistic, so feel free to spook some mooks and then punch the big bad in the head for thinking a Paladin is easy to handle.

Be wary of dipping before 9. The Fear spell is SO good, and as a shield and spear user you probably want to invest in Warcaster so you can actually cast Shield.

[Corran]

Spoiler: @Benny89: I offer you a wall of text! :p

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I just want to hear some real experience of playing one before I commit. Because while I love how he synergies with himself so much- I feel like he is one-trick-pony a little bit.

I am playing my first conquest paladin these days. Although typically I don't have the oath yet, since we are only at level 2 atm. Man, leveling up in a large party is a pain! I've mapped out more or less how I expect to play up to level 12 (planning on no multiclassing at all btw; yeah, not even that one level in hexblade… and I can tell you, it pains me not to include it in my plans, since I find it very hard to justify not taking it). So I can give you a very brief summary of my plans. Keep in mind though, that a lot of the decisions I have made or that I've planned to make, depend more than anything else on having many allies and more particularly on taking also into account my allies' builds.

Spoiler: Group comp

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1) Halforc Barbarian: not sure which path he'll take, I know he's planning for GWM
2) Human dreams druid with the healer feat
3) Human fighter, PAM: planning for BM, Sentinel and GWM
4) Human paladin, Inspiring leader: planning conquest
5) Wood elf rogue: planning assassin, mixes melee and ranged, wants to play melee more
6) Halfelf warlock: Not sure if fiend of hexblade, think he is hexblade, so far it's EB spam but he is planning for blade pact

So... with two (potentially) great dpr's in the barbarian and the fighter (particularly the fighter), I plan on using bless a lot, to help them deal tons of damage. I'll start using bless either at 5 (if I grab resilient con at 4) or at level 6 (after I get aura of protection, in case I don't grab resilient con at 4). Till then, my 1st level slots go mostly to command and smites.

At level 5, I will finally get access to 2nd level spells and slots. And that's a big deal for me in this group, because aside for better smite and aid (which is a very good spell), I can also use these slots with spiritual weapon and AoA. Aid, spiritual weapon and AoA, are of very similar value for me in this setup. It's giving me some trouble figuring out how I will use my level 2 slots, and level 7 will be important not only for giving me aura of conquest, but also for adding the last level 2 spell slot I can get my hands on. I expect to be using an aid when we suspect combat is near, and keeping my other level 2 slot(s) open to be used as need be between sw, AoA, smite, or another aid (less likely the last one) depending on what I can make out for the type of encounter ahead of us or if I need to try and turn the tide of combat with another and higher level smite.

Level 9 will bring me level 3 spells, and although I cannot overstate how important I think fear will be, I think that the real value for me in this setup will be revivify, simply because there is no bard or cleric in the party (or ds sorc or celestial warlock), so it's kind of vital. Planning to keep one 3rd level slot available for it, which means that all of my other 3rd level options take a bit of a blow (as they now have to compete with fear for that 3rd level slot that remains, well, at least until I hit level 11 that is). But this wont hurt me too much I suspect, since out of combat healing can be covered by the druid better than me anyway (so less need for aura of vitality), and so will dispel magic. Elemental weapon is far less needed in a party of 6, only crusader's mantle might be used less often than if I didn't have to keep that slot available for revivify. And still, even though I haven't crunched the math (will do when we hit level 9), I suspect that bless might actually be better (if not better, then definitely on par more or less) than crusader's mantle, despite the large number of allies, simply because of how 2 PC's stand out from the rest in term of dpr (also because bless helps with my allies' saves, which is one of their weak points; though this might change if/when the druid is using conjured animals). Though even so, it's important to note that bless and crusader's mantle typically tend to work better in different situations, as bless favors fighting high AC enemies, while crusader's mantle favors fighting against low AC enemies.

Back to the main two dpr's, ie the barbarian and the fighter, who by the way will make for a fantastic pair up front (especially if the barb grabs totem wolf IMO), one of their main weaknesses (well, they have two actually, at least as far as I can see; the one I am about to mention, and lack of solid ranged attacks, though the barbarian compensates slightly with a bit of increased movement) will be their saves. Which is where my aura of protection will come in play (along with lesser restoration, which I can have prepared to allow the druid some more versatility in his spell selection if he needs it; though ideally I would want him to have it prepared, so I can use my 2nd level slots as mentioned previously). It will also help with the warlock's concentration, if the warlock eventually goes for a melee playstyle. And certainly it will help with my own saves and concentration.

Now, in a party of 6, you can expect encounters with many enemies (and that is the case so far for us), which means a long initiative order. Which the DM wants one of us to keep it down written. I do that. It helps me figure out when I should shove (prone) someone instead of just attack (with my ''poor'' str of 15; rolled stats... I hate rolling for stats... though it got me an exceptional charisma). And with strong (and lots of) melee allies, shoving someone prone can be a much better choice than just attacking (assuming initiative cooperates). I plan on eventually getting shield master (the version that makes sense!) at level 12, because once I have IDS I want to avoid spending an attack on shoving instead of attacking. Potential advantage for my attacks will also help my own dpr. And it has synergy with fear effects and with aura of conquest, but that's beside what you are asking. SM will then occupy my bonus actions most of the time (taking some pressure off spiritual weapon), allowing me more freedom to use my 2nd level slots with aid/AoA/smites, while if fighting something too big that I can't shove, or too strong that I feel my chances are probably bad enough and the benefit (depending on initiative) too small, I can fall back to spiritual weapon for my bonus actions. So bonus action economy is not only covered, but also optimized(?) IMO, as whatever little overlap between my two bonus action options can be justified sufficiently, mainly because I have lots of good uses for my 2nd level spell slots, but also because the dpr difference between the two options will be significantly different most of the time, to allow myself to spend an ASI for it (while I wouldn't do the same for PAM).

Spoiler: Rant

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I play in the almost ideal scenario for a feat like shield master. Many melee allies -two of them great dpr's with GWM-, synergy from fear effects because it gives enemies disadvantage on ability checks, synergy with the aura that reduces their speed to 0 so they can't get up once I knock them prone, lack of (m)any reactions so that I can use the 3rd benefit without worrying too much, improved dex saves despite being a str build -which helps with the shove- through aura of protection so I can icrease significantly my chances of the pseudo evasion working. All that, and it still is 4th in line for what ASI/feat I am picking; after inspiring leader, +2 CHA to max it, and resilient con. It's not an op feat... and I don't think I am misjudging it so much.

-------------------- (some general thoughts follow)

These are pretty much my thoughts for what my character will do when I will not be using fear tactics. To me it doesn't feel that I will be out of options. I'll say that to know the value of these options (and of others that I didn't mention, because IMO they wouldn't play well in our large party setup IMO; eg shield of faith) it is probably enough to have played any paladin. Fear tactics are going to be my strong suit, sure, it will be when using those that I will probably shine the most. But I think that I have a few good moves when those tactics wont apply (both in response to what the enemy does and those on which I can base a tactical approach without worrying too much about what the enemy is or does). A good AC and decent hp will allow me to take some of the heat off my other allies (2 of which are melee dpr's, so I want them up and going for as long as possible). Don't worry too much about dpr, if someone else can cover it. Paladins (with vengeance probably being the exception IMO) are not best suited to a dpr role, it's not your strong suit. If others can cover the dpr department sufficiently, don't go out of your way to invest on how to maximize it. You are a pseudo dpr of course, that is you can play as one using smites, but IMO your goal should be to avoid ever coming down to it. Only when the enemy you are facing is of too high a priority (and that's a judgement call), it is worth using it pre emptively IMO. Otherwise it's best to use it if you ever need it to try and turn the tide of combat, which obviously is a backup plan.

If you are worried a lot about fear immune enemies, or enemies with magic/legendary resistance(s), well, I think that most of such enemies fall into the big bad category. In which case, you don't even need wrathful smite. Wrathful smite is great! But even if you cannot use it (or if you think it would be too risky to use it), you can still fall back to smiting along with something like bless or spiritual weapon (both spells are great spells for fights against big bads). So the paladin chassis alone has you covered on that front, even without the additional help of SW that is conquest exclusive.

But keep in mind, that it wont just be fear immune/resistant enemies that can force you into non-fear based tactical mode. Until you get fear at level 9, you only have CD as a mass fear effect, and CD recharge on a short rest. So you might not always have it available. Once you get access to the fear spell that problem solves itself of course, but still, take into consideration your group's strength and weaknesses before commiting to a fear effect opener for every encounter. Most of the times it will be your best use (especially against hordes), but sometimes you might need something else. Play to the strengths of your party, while doing your best to cover their weaknesses. Sometimes this might be more important than a 5-10 dpr increase, because this might actually translate to a greater aggregate dpr increase (through that some convoluted thinking of how it actually plays out).

--------

ps: Oh, I almost forgot. I will try to include spells like branding smite and later on banishing smite in my prepared list, because these spells have good synergy with the other channel divinity option (guided strike I think?). Situational spells, situational CD options, but sometime you might need these spells (assuming no one else can cover better for those contingencies; our druid has faerie fire, not sure if there is much point in me keeping branding smite prepared... possibly, but not sure) and having guided strike can up their potential significantly (assuming you find yourself across a situation that calls for these spells and assuming you have not spent your CD). This is pure speculation on my part, as I have never used these two spells so far.

[Benny89]

Spoiler: @Benny89: I offer you a wall of text! :p

Show

I am playing my first conquest paladin these days. Although typically I don't have the oath yet, since we are only at level 2 atm. Man, leveling up in a large party is a pain! I've mapped out more or less how I expect to play up to level 12 (planning on no multiclassing at all btw; yeah, not even that one level in hexblade… and I can tell you, it pains me not to include it in my plans, since I find it very hard to justify not taking it). So I can give you a very brief summary of my plans. Keep in mind though, that a lot of the decisions I have made or that I've planned to make, depend more than anything else on having many allies and more particularly on taking also into account my allies' builds.

Spoiler: Group comp

Show

1) Halforc Barbarian: not sure which path he'll take, I know he's planning for GWM
2) Human dreams druid with the healer feat
3) Human fighter, PAM: planning for BM, Sentinel and GWM
4) Human paladin, Inspiring leader: planning conquest
5) Wood elf rogue: planning assassin, mixes melee and ranged, wants to play melee more
6) Halfelf warlock: Not sure if fiend of hexblade, think he is going hexblade, but not sure if he will use weapon or just spam EB; so far it's EB

So... with two (potentially) great dpr's in the barbarian and the fighter (particularly the fighter), I plan on using bless a lot, to help them deal tons of damage. I'll start using bless either at 5 (if I grab resilient con at 4) or at level 6 (after I get aura of protection, in case I don't grab resilient con at 4). Till then, my 1st level slots go mostly to command and smites. At level 5, I will finally get access to 2nd level spells and slots. And that's a big deal for me in this group, because aside for better smite and aid (which is a very good spell), I can also use these slots with spiritual weapon and AoA. Aid, spiritual weapon and AoA, are of very similar value for me in this setup. It's giving me some trouble figuring out how I will use my level 2 slots, and level 7 will be important not only for giving me aura of conquest, but also for adding the last level 2 spell slot I can get my hands on. I expect to be using an aid when we suspect combat is near, and keeping my other level 2 slot(s) open to be used as need be between sw, AoA, smite, or another aid (less likely the last one) depending on what I can make out for the type of encounter ahead of us or if I need to try and turn the tide of combat with another and higher level smite. Level 9 will bring me level 3 spells, and although I cannot overstate how important I think fear will be, I think that the real value for me in this setup will be revivify, simply because there is no bard or cleric in the party (or ds sorc or celestial warlock), so it's kind of vital. Planning to keep one 3rd level slot available for it, which means that all of my other 3rd level options take a bit of a blow (as they now have to compete with fear for that 3rd level slot that remains, well, at least until I hit level 11 that is). But this wont hurt me too much I suspect, since out of combat healing can be covered by the druid better than me anyway, and so will dispel magic. Elemental weapon is far less needed in a party of 6, only crusader's mantle might be used less often than if I didn't have to keep that slot available for revivify. And still, even though I haven't crunched the math (will do when we hit level 9), I suspect that bless might actually be better (if not better, then definitely on par more or less) than crusader's mantle, despite the large number of allies, simply because of how 2 PC's stand out from the rest in term of dpr (also because bless helps with my allies' saves, which is one of their weak points; though this might change if/when the druid is using conjured animals). Back to the main two dpr's, ie the barbarian and the fighter, who by the way will make for a fantastic pair up front (especially if the barb grabs totem wolf IMO), one of their main weaknesses (well, they have two actually, at least as far as I can see; the one I am about to mention, and lack of solid ranged attacks, though the barbarian compensates slightly with a bit of increased movement) will be their saves. Which is where my aura of protection will come in play (along with lesser restoration, which I can have prepared to allow the druid some more versatility in his spell selection if he needs it). It will also help with the warlock's concentration, if the warlock eventually goes for a melee playstyle. And certainly it will help with my own saves and concentration. Now, in a party of 6, you can expect encounters with many enemies (and that is the case so far for us), which means a long initiative order. Which the DM wants one of us to keep it down written. I do that. It helps me figure out when I should shove (prone) someone instead of just attack (with my ''poor'' str of 15; rolled stats... I hate rolling for stats... though it got me an exceptional charisma). And with strong (and lots of) melee allies, shoving someone prone can be a much better choice than just attacking (assuming initiative cooperates). I plan on eventually getting shield master (the version that makes sense!) at level 12, because once I have IDS I want to avoid spending an attack on shoving instead of attacking. Potential advantage for my attacks will also help my own dpr. And it has synergy with fear effects and with aura of conquest, but that's beside what you are asking. SM will then occupy my bonus actions most of the time, allowing me more freedom to use my 2nd level slots with aid/AoA/smites, while if fighting something too big that I can't shove, or too strong that I feel my chances are probably bad enough and the benefit (depending on initiative) too small, I can fall back to spiritual weapon for my bonus actions. So bonus action economy is not only covered, but also optimized IMO, as whatever little overlap between my two bonus action options can be justified sufficiently, mainly because I have lots of good uses for my 2nd level spell slots, but also because the dpr difference between the two options will be significantly different most of the time, to allow myself to spend an ASI for it (while I wouldn't do the same for PAM).

Spoiler: Rant

Show

I play in the almost ideal scenario for a feat like shield master. Many melee allies -two of them great dpr's with GWM-, synergy from fear effects because it gives enemies disadvantage on ability checks, synergy with the aura that reduces their speed to 0 so they can't get up once I knock them prone, lack of (m)any reactions so that I can use the 3rd benefit without worrying too much, improved dex saves despite being a str build -which helps with the shove- through aura of protection so I can icrease significantly my chances of the pseudo evasion working. All that, and it still is 4th in line for what ASI/feat I am picking; after inspiring leader, +2 CHA to max it, and resilient con. It's not an op feat... and I don't think I am misjudging it so much.

These are pretty much my thoughts for what my character will do when I will not be using fear tactics. To me it doesn't feel that I will be out of options. I'll say that to know the value of these options (and of others that I didn't mention, because IMO they wouldn't play well in our large party setup IMO; eg shield of faith) it is probably enough to have played any paladin. Fear tactics are going to be my strong suit, sure, it will be when using those that I will probably shine the most. But I think that I have a few good moves when those tactics wont apply (both in response to what the enemy does and those on which I can base a tactical approach without worrying too much about what the enemy is or does). A good AC and decent hp will allow me to take some of the heat off my other allies (2 of which are melee dpr's, so I want them up and going for as much as possible). Don't worry too much about dpr, if someone else can cover it. Paladins (with vengeance probably being the exception IMO) are not best suited to a dpr role, it's not your strong suit. If others can cover the dpr department sufficiently, don't go out of your way to invest on how to maximize it. You are a pseudo dpr of course, that is you can play as one using smites, but IMO your goal should be to avoid ever coming down to it. Only when the enemy you are facing is of too high a priority (and that's a judgement call), it is worth using it pre emptively IMO. Otherwise it's best to use it if you ever need it to try and turn the tide of combat, which obviously is a backup plan.

If you are worried a lot about fear immune enemies, or enemies with magic/legendary resistance(s), well, I think that most of such enemies fall into the big bad category. In which case, you don't even need wrathful smite. Wrathful smite is great! But even if you cannot use it (or if you think it would be too risky to use it), you can still fall back to smiting along with something like bless or spiritual weapon (both spells are great spells for fights against big bads). So the paladin chassis alone has you covered on that front, even without the additional help of SW that is conquest exclusive.

But keep in mind, that it wont just be fear immune/resistant enemies that can force you into non-fear based tactical mode. Until you get fear at level 9, you only have CD as a mass fear effect, and CD recharge on a short rest. So you might not always have it available. Once you get access to the fear spell that problem solves itself of course, but still, take into consideration your group's strength and weaknesses before commiting to a fear effect opener for every encounter. Most of the times it will be your best use (especially against hordes), but sometimes you might need something else. Play to the strengths of your party, while doing your best to cover their weaknesses. Sometimes this might be more important than a 5-10 dpr increase, because this might actually translate to a greater aggregate dpr increase (through that some convoluted thinking of how it actually plays out).

Oh, I almost forgot. I will try to include spells like branding smite and later on banishing smite in my prepared list, because these spells have good synergy with the other channel divinity option (guided strike I think?). Situational spells, situational CD options, but sometime you might need these spells (assuming no one else can cover better for those contingencies) and having guided strike can up their potential significantly (assuming you find yourself across a situation that calls for these spells and assuming you have not spent your CD). This is pure speculation on my part, as I have never used these two spells so far.

Thank you for wall of text in wall of fear thread :D. I got some good tips.

Sadly in my party I am solo front line fighter, solo melee and solo tank. Moon Druid in my team can "soak" but he can't really tank that well (stopping enemies from moving to back line). So what I was seeking was to combine CC, defense, DPR and Nova with one character. That is why I thought about Conquest: it has great CC with fear, lockdown and prone-lock. As every Paladin- he is great tank because of Heavy Armor, Aura, Lay Down Hands and using shield. Then I want to take PAM because it gives me big DPR and damage boost for Conquest, as normally you would have to waste spell for Spiritual Weapon. Additional attack not only adds another IDS, another Smite but will also add another +5 dmg from Rebuke on 15 level and nother bonus damage from Curse on target and from Dueling.

So even if enemy is resistance to fear, I will still be able to cast Curse on BBEG and have 3 attacks with Curse, Dueling and later Rebuke bonus damage. At level 16 that will be +5, +5 and +5 from 20 CHA (not counting magical weapon if any) giving that bonus PAM attack a +15 to damage + IDS making PAM bonus attack extremely potent, which should make me little better DPR Paladin than standard Conquest.

Level 16 (Curse on target and 5k8 smites, using Spear):

2 attacks: 7 + 30 + 4 + 9 + 45 = 95 damage.

Bonus attack: 2.5 + 15 + 2 + 4.5 + 22.5 = 7 + 17 + 22.5 = 46.5

Total (with 3 hits): 141.5 damage. Not bad for Conquest. Rebuke and Curse combo well with each other. Sure, it's not VoE + Haste but it's not bad either! With Holy Weapon or Divine Favour it can be boosted little more. Usually first turn vs BBEG I will spend with Curse + Fear or Curse + Armor of Agathys/Aura of Life so next turn I go all out.

In enemy is not immune to fear, my plan is to Wrathful Smite him, then if he fails- use second of my Attacks to Shove him (Strength check so he has disadvantage because of Frightened condition ) and try to prone him. Then next turn I have him locked down in prone and have 3x attacks with Advantage vs him. That for example to eliminate enemy caster/BBEG. If I can pre-cast Wrathful Smite I could even go with - Attack (Wrathful), Shove and still have bonus PAM attack with advantage at the end if I manage to prone him.

Vs enemies- my CD or Fear and try to lock down as many as possible in place.

I want to take Hexblade to be SAD CHA, have Shield to boost my tanking and War Caster to cast booming blade if I can't lock someone with fear and he wants to get past me. If enemy has no magical weapon (many big monsters do not) I can tank quite long with Stone Skin. At 5th level spells - Curse + Rebuke + Dueling + Holy Weapon + Smites will provide a very good Nova/DPR for my team. I also think about taking 2nd level of Hexblade after level 16 just to get Agonizing Blast and Grasp of Hadar to pull enemies that are frightened into my Aura to lock them.

And though I wondered if I should not take GWF or Defense and abuse 10 feet reach Polearms with my 10 feet Aura, however I feel like Shield is just too good to pass for solo front liner and that if I lock enemies 10 feet from me I will attack only one of them anyway and he will have disadvantage on me. Plus War Caster and Booming Blade works wonder with Spear as it's 5 feet.

That is at least my plan. I thought long about how to fill all 3 roles- melee Nova/DPR, tanking and CC and I think Conquest is best choice.

I could take Devotion, but I don't like good Paladins :P.

[Sception]

I'll... I'll read that eventually, but, I mean, paragraph breaks my friend. :p

[Corran]

I'll... I'll read that eventually, but, I mean, paragraph breaks my friend. :p

Apologies. Will edit it to make it somewhat easier to read. I would love to hear your thoughts on it actually when you have the time to read it.

[Benny89]

Apologies. Will edit it to make it somewhat easier to read. I would love to hear your thoughts on it actually when you have the time to read it.

It wasn't that bad :). You have better party than me, gives you some flex. I have to optimize much more to fill more roles :(, hence why PAM and Vuman. If I had at lease one more melee-dedicated damage dealer I would probably take other race and have some more fun and flex.

[Corran]

Spoiler: Hey Benny, guess what! Wall of text!

Show

Sadly in my party I am solo front line fighter, solo melee and solo tank. Moon Druid in my team can "soak" but he can't really tank that well (stopping enemies from moving to back line). So what I was seeking was to combine CC, defense, DPR and Nova with one character. That is why I thought about Conquest: it has great CC with fear, lockdown and prone-lock.

Be careful with conquering presence. The cc of aura of conquest is strong, but it only extends to 10 feet. So when you use conquering presence, be careful not to frighten a lot of melee enemies which you wont be able to fit inside your aura's radius. Cause then these enemies will have no option (as long as they remain frightened) but to try and engage your squishier allies, since they wont even be able to approach you. Communicate this to your allies so they can be ready in case something like this happens. Shoving enemies might also be not the greatest idea, if most of your allies fight from range. You can always split targets, so you and the druid hit a prone target while the rest hit someone else, but this does not sound like a great plan, assuming you have the option of course for all of you to concentrate fire on one enemy. Sentinel might be a good feat for your druid to consider, drop that idea to them.
This is the kind of party setup where I think that a crown paladin (or sorcadin) would thrive, mostly due to how well suited their CD is for such a situation, but I digress, since we are not discussing that.

As every Paladin- he is great tank because of Heavy Armor, Aura, Lay Down Hands and using shield. Then I want to take PAM because it gives me big DPR and damage boost for Conquest, as normally you would have to waste spell for Spiritual Weapon. Additional attack not only adds another IDS, another Smite but will also add another +5 dmg from Rebuke on 15 level and nother bonus damage from Curse on target and from Dueling.

PAM is a great feat on paladins (particularly the S&B spear version). I think it's a bit less awesome (but still good) for conquest paladins for two reasons. Firstly, because SM can actually be a better feat in some cases (cases like mine, not like yours, as the majority of damage will come from ranged people in your case). Secondly, because conquest paladins get access to spiritual weapon. I don't agree with your phrase, that you ''waste'' a spell slot for it. It's more like that you will be using spell slots to fuel your bonus actions instead of having to invest a (good, yes) feat for the same thing. Think of it this way. If you grab PAM so you can always use your bonus actions with it (cause why wouldn't you), then SW is a wasted oath spell (well, perhaps with some extremelly situational value as a short range ranged attack). But like I said, it's not like PAM is a bad feat, I just think that SW diminishes its value just enough for it to drop slightly below other candidates for my feats/ASI's (like resilient/warcaster, cha bumps, etc), or at the very least to make me consider postponing it for several levels. PAM is good at early levels, then it loses some steam, and picks up again after 11 when you get IDS. It's a decent choice for a vhuman that plans to grab warcaster instead of resilient (because you can grab resilient at 1st level) and for whom shield master would not make much sense. Not sure how much dodging a solo tank conquest will need to do (because fear effects impose disadvantage too), but you might find yourself in a situation (eg CD is not available) where dodging would actually be an action well spent. At least as far as earlier levels go, cause after you get extra attack dodging become somewhat less attractive (though it can still be a good choice for your action, depending on what/how many enemies are targeting you). And having PAM from early on will probably take value away from using the dodge action. Then again, as I said, PAM is a very good damage boost at early levels, so as you can see, this is very relative, and depends on how tough the fights are for your PC. Anyway, I rambled enough, but before I move on, one last thing. The value of PAM regarding smiting is one I don't appreciate much. Spell slots are limited, so getting extra opportunities for more smiting caps at some point due to spell slots. Definitely useful against high AC bosses (are there many low AC bosses?), but eh, I don't see it the benefit it bestows nova as sth that crucial. I see it almost exclusively as a dpr boost. I could be wrong about that.

So even if enemy is resistance to fear, I will still be able to cast Curse on BBEG and have 3 attacks with Curse, Dueling and later Rebuke bonus damage. At level 16 that will be +5, +5 and +5 from 20 CHA (not counting magical weapon if any) giving that bonus PAM attack a +15 to damage + IDS making PAM bonus attack extremely potent, which should make me little better DPR Paladin than standard Conquest.

I like how the curse adds a bonus action option for when you spend your first round of combat casting a spell. For example, bless + curse can be a good opener against certain big bads. (Ah, should have read a little ahead where you basically say the same thing more or less).
ps: Just don't fall down the rabbit hole of curse + elven accuracy + crit smite. The potential damage boost
is so promising that when you realize that it's too random to make a good profit from it, you are already several levels in. Many good people walked on this road of madness and they never recovered...

Total (with 3 hits): 141.5 damage. Not bad for Conquest. Rebuke and Curse combo well with each other. Sure, it's not VoE + Haste but it's not bad either! With Holy Weapon or Divine Favour it can be boosted little more. Usually first turn vs BBEG I will spend with Curse + Fear or Curse + Armor of Agathys/Aura of Life so next turn I go all out.

I would focus more on spells like shield of faith, instead of divine favor. I know I know, a bonus to AC is boring while added damage dice are cool, but if a lot of attacks are coming your way, the AC bonus will (almost certainly) translate to less damage than the damage mitigation that an increased dpr would grant you (from killing enemies faster that is).

In enemy is not immune to fear, my plan is to Wrathful Smite him, then if he fails- use second of my Attacks to Shove him (Strength check so he has disadvantage because of Frightened condition ) and try to prone him. Then next turn I have him locked down in prone and have 3x attacks with Advantage vs him. That for example to eliminate enemy caster/BBEG. If I can pre-cast Wrathful Smite I could even go with - Attack (Wrathful), Shove and still have bonus PAM attack with advantage at the end if I manage to prone him.

Just be careful not to give disadvantage to ranged allies who can bring good damage for the side.

Vs enemies- my CD or Fear and try to lock down as many as possible in place.

Good plan. Just be careful when you use the CD, or make sure allies can provide some additional cc in case enemies are spread so that you can't fit most of them into your aura of conquest (lvl 17 is certainly a BIG level). And notice that fear does not share the same weakness, as enemies affected by fear that wont fit into your aura radius, don't stick around to threaten your allies, they run away. This difference is great both in a melee heavy and in a ranged heavy party. In a ranged heavy party like yours because you allow the backline some extra rounds to breathe freely, in a melee heavy party it has the potential of it proc'ing OA's from your allies.

I want to take Hexblade to be SAD CHA, have Shield to boost my tanking and War Caster to cast booming blade if I can't lock someone with fear and he wants to get past me. If enemy has no magical weapon (many big monsters do not) I can tank quite long with Stone Skin. At 5th level spells - Curse + Rebuke + Dueling + Holy Weapon + Smites will provide a very good Nova/DPR for my team. I also think about taking 2nd level of Hexblade after level 16 just to get Agonizing Blast and Grasp of Hadar to pull enemies that are frightened into my Aura to lock them.

Stoneskin does have some synergy with AoA and with invincible conqueror scornful rebuke, but I am not sure if it's worth it. Worth having, to be sure. I am not a big fan of it though (maybe this is my preferences talking though). I can't argue with anything here. The hexblade level offers just too many useful things to be ignored. AC boost, OA boost, ranged attack (in a heavy ranged party! Kite! In which case, grabbing a second warlock level at some point -don't ask me when, I don't know- might be a good idea), all of these things are pure gems for a paladin. Not to mention hex warrior (which will eventually translate into roughly two ASI's worth).

And though I wondered if I should not take GWF or Defense and abuse 10 feet reach Polearms with my 10 feet Aura, however I feel like Shield is just too good to pass for solo front liner and that if I lock enemies 10 feet from me I will attack only one of them anyway and he will have disadvantage on me. Plus War Caster and Booming Blade works wonder with Spear as it's 5 feet.

IMO, and even putting aide your party and the need for you to tank, conquest paladins, or paladins in general, don't have much tools to make the best use of a heavy polearm's reach. Fear tricks is what plays best with increased reach, but conquest paladins do have a small immobilizing radius to make great use of a polearm's reach. Because you will want to catch as many enemies as possible and glue them inside your aura of conquest, and you will also want whatever AC boost you can get your hands on, because when this oath plays to its strengths (ie locking foes down), expect the smartest of them to focus you like there is no tomorrow, and I mean foes other than the ones you immobilized as well (and oathbreakers really want sentinel -plays well with their CD among other things-, and if you have sentinel, IDS and aura of hate, you want to be close and personal with your enemy to make those sentinel reaction attacks; also, similarly to conquest palys, oathbreakers do have the option to fuel their bonus action with spell slots already, from animate dead, so once again that diminishes a little the value of PAM). Also, in this set up, I would almost definitely go with the defense fighting style (ratio of damage of incoming attacks to damage of attacks you get to make, will most likely make defense more valuable than dueling).

That is at least my plan. I thought long about how to fill all 3 roles- melee Nova/DPR, tanking and CC and I think Conquest is best choice.

I could take Devotion, but I don't like good Paladins :P.

Be mindful of the character's survivability. Paladins are not bad tanks, but you might need to shift some of your ideas to a more defensive direction. Though shield might be enough to keep you up and kicking butts. In case it's not, think about using spells like shield of faith, or taking the dodge action more, stuff like that which are not super appealing but will work well for a solo tank.

[Benny89]

Spoiler: Hey Benny, guess what! Wall of text!

Show

Be careful with conquering presence. The cc of aura of conquest is strong, but it only extends to 10 feet. So when you use conquering presence, be careful not to frighten a lot of melee enemies which you wont be able to fit inside your aura's radius. Cause then these enemies will have no option (as long as they remain frightened) but to try and engage your squishier allies, since they wont even be able to approach you. Communicate this to your allies so they can be ready in case something like this happens. Shoving enemies might also be not the greatest idea, if most of your allies fight from range. You can always split targets, so you and the druid hit a prone target while the rest hit someone else, but this does not sound like a great plan, assuming you have the option of course for all of you to concentrate fire on one enemy. Sentinel might be a good feat for your druid to consider, drop that idea to them.
This is the kind of party setup where I think that a crown paladin (or sorcadin) would thrive, mostly due to how well suited their CD is for such a situation, but I digress, since we are not discussing that.


PAM is a great feat on paladins (particularly the S&B spear version). I think it's a bit less awesome (but still good) for conquest paladins for two reasons. Firstly, because SM can actually be a better feat in some cases (cases like mine, not like yours, as the majority of damage will come from ranged people in your case). Secondly, because conquest paladins get access to spiritual weapon. I don't agree with your phrase, that you ''waste'' a spell slot for it. It's more like that you will be using spell slots to fuel your bonus actions instead of having to invest a (good, yes) feat for the same thing. Think of it this way. If you grab PAM so you can always use your bonus actions with it (cause why wouldn't you), then SW is a wasted oath spell (well, perhaps with some extremelly situational value as a short range ranged attack). But like I said, it's not like PAM is a bad feat, I just think that SW diminishes its value just enough for it to drop slightly below other candidates for my feats/ASI's (like resilient/warcaster, cha bumps, etc), or at the very least to make me consider postponing it for several levels. PAM is good at early levels, then it loses some steam, and picks up again after 11 when you get IDS. It's a decent choice for a vhuman that plans to grab warcaster instead of resilient (because you can grab resilient at 1st level) and for whom shield master would not make much sense. Not sure how much dodging a solo tank conquest will need to do (because fear effects impose disadvantage too), but you might find yourself in a situation (eg CD is not available) where dodging would actually be an action well spent. At least as far as earlier levels go, cause after you get extra attack dodging become somewhat less attractive (though it can still be a good choice for your action, depending on what/how many enemies are targeting you). And having PAM from early on will probably take value away from using the dodge action. Then again, as I said, PAM is a very good damage boost at early levels, so as you can see, this is very relative, and depends on how tough the fights are for your PC. Anyway, I rambled enough, but before I move on, one last thing. The value of PAM regarding smiting is one I don't appreciate much. Spell slots are limited, so getting extra opportunities for more smiting caps at some point due to spell slots. Definitely useful against high AC bosses (are there many low AC bosses?), but eh, I don't see it the benefit it bestows nova as sth that crucial. I see it almost exclusively as a dpr boost. I could be wrong about that.


I like how the curse adds a bonus action option for when you spend your first round of combat casting a spell. For example, bless + curse can be a good opener against certain big bads. (Ah, should have read a little ahead where you basically say the same thing more or less).
ps: Just don't fall down the rabbit hole of curse + elven accuracy + crit smite. The potential damage boost
is so promising that when you realize that it's too random to make a good profit from it, you are already several levels in. Many good people walked on this road of madness and they never recovered...



I would focus more on spells like shield of faith, instead of divine favor. I know I know, a bonus to AC is boring while added damage dice are cool, but if a lot of attacks are coming your way, the AC bonus will (almost certainly) translate to less damage than the damage mitigation that an increased dpr would grant you (from killing enemies faster that is).


Just be careful not to give disadvantage to ranged allies who can bring good damage for the side.


Good plan. Just be careful when you use the CD, or make sure allies can provide some additional cc in case enemies are spread so that you can't fit most of them into your aura of conquest (lvl 17 is certainly a BIG level). And notice that fear does not share the same weakness, as enemies affected by fear that wont fit into your aura radius, don't stick around to threaten your allies, they run away. This difference is great both in a melee heavy and in a ranged heavy party. In a ranged heavy party like yours because you allow the backline some extra rounds to breathe freely, in a melee heavy party it has the potential of it proc'ing OA's from your allies.


Stoneskin does have some synergy with AoA and with invincible conqueror, but I am not sure if it's worth it. Worth having, to be sure. I am not a big fan of it though (maybe this is my preferences talking though). I can't argue with anything here. The hexblade level offers just too many useful things to be ignored. AC boost, OA boost, ranged attack (in a heavy ranged party! Kite! In which case, grabbing a second warlock level at some point -don't ask me when, I don't know- might be a good idea), all of these things are pure gems for a paladin. Not to mention hex warrior (which will eventually translate into roughly two ASI's worth).


IMO, and even putting aide your party and the need for you to tank, conquest paladins, or paladins in general, don't have much tools to make the best use of a heavy polearm's reach. Fear tricks is what plays best with increased reach, but conquest paladins do have a small immobilizing radius to make great use of a polearm's reach. Because you will want to catch as many enemies as possible and glue them inside your aura of conquest, and you will also want whatever AC boost you can get your hands on, because when this oath plays to its strengths (ie locking foes down), expect the smartest of them to focus you like there is no tomorrow, and I mean foes other than the ones you immobilized as well (and oathbreakers really want sentinel -plays well with their CD among other things-, and if you have sentinel, IDS and aura of hate, you want to be close and personal with your enemy to make those sentinel reaction attacks). Also, in this set up, I would almost definitely go with the defense fighting style (ratio of damage of incoming attacks to damage of attacks you get to make, will most likely make defense more valuable than dueling).


Be mindful of the character's survivability. Paladins are not bad tanks, but you might need to shift some of your ideas to a more defensive direction. Though shield might be enough to keep you up and kicking butts. In case it's not, think about using spells like shield of faith, or taking the dodge action more, stuff like that which are not super appealing but will work well for a solo tank.

Eh, I start to think that Conquest is not good idea at all....

As for PAM- I will have War Caster, 20 CHA and PAM at 13 level anyway, it's not a big loss in feat. I don't want Sentinel as it counters Booming Blade OAs because you lock their movement. As you said- PAM start strong, then drops a little but once IDS, Curse and Rebuke kicks it- it scales superb well. And + Holy Weapon later. It is DPR boost but I need DPR boost. I need every boost. Our other party members is Druid, Cleric and Rogue so there is not much range combat aside from spells which don't care about prone.

I also never use dodging action in DnD. For me it's always a waste of action so no point in that. I don't want Shield Master because with PAM you can actually shove better after 5th level. You can Shove, Attack + Bonus Attack, instead of having to attack, attack and then shove. Also Shield Master gives you shove but no extra attack. PAM on the other hand gives extra attack and it also compensate a shove attempt. The only difference between bonus and main attack in my build is 1k4 vs 1k6 dice, which is not a lot. I can still shove as good as Shield Master and still have two attacks vs proned target in same turn if needed.

[Corran]

Eh, I start to think that Conquest is not good idea at all....

As for PAM- I will have War Caster, 20 CHA and PAM at 13 level anyway, it's not a big loss. As you said- PAM start strong, then drops a little but once IDS, Curse and Rebuke kicks it- it scales superb well. And + Holy Weapon later. It is DPR boost but I need DPR boost. I need every boost. Our other party members is Druid, Cleric and Rogue so there is not much range combat aside from spells which don't care about prone.

I have to think about playing Conquest then.

Is it because of what I said about conquering presence? if yes, don't make such a big deal out of it. Something always manages to get through, that's why you need a second controller, particularly in a team with many squishies. Even if you had the crown CD, there would be at least one enemy most of the time that wouldn't be affected. Squishies can always keep their distance, or invest in some form of defense, escape or control. Your job is NOT to keep everyone away from your less durable allies (it's good for enemy damage to be distributed somewhat anyway), just most of them. And a conquest paly can still do that. Besides, apart from control, you will need to boost your defense equally as much. There are not many features that allow you to both debuff and control in mass, like conquering presence does, and without having to commit concentration. Conquest paladin is not a bad idea at all for what you are thinking. Is it the best? Eh... I'd say no, but it's damn close to the perfect solution you need (besides, the crown builds I have in mind are much more defense focused at the expense of offensive potential, so it wouldn't fit what you are after anyway).

[Benny89]

Is it because of what I said about conquering presence? if yes, don't make such a big deal out of it. Something always manages to get through, that's why you need a second controller, particularly in a team with many squishies. Even if you had the crown CD, there would be at least one enemy most of the time that wouldn't be affected. Squishies can always keep their distance, or invest in some form of defense, escape or control. Your job is NOT to keep everyone away from your less durable allies (it's good for enemy damage to be distributed somewhat anyway), just most of them. And a conquest paly can still do that. Besides, apart from control, you will need to boost your defense equally as much. There are not many features that allow you to both debuff and control in mass, like conquering presence does, and without having to commit concentration. Conquest paladin is not a bad idea at all for what you are thinking. Is it the best? Eh... I'd say no, but it's damn close to the perfect solution you need (besides, the crown builds I have in mind are much more defense focused at the expense of offensive potential, so it wouldn't fit what you are after anyway).

Well, I know that Crown would probably be "best" for single tank or Devotion for support/damage/tank mix but I just don't like being just a tank and I don't like good Paladins (good means= overly good).

I did some interesting testing. It's by no means very accurate but I compared potential Nova Damage of level 17 Conquest Paladin with Curse on Target vs level 17 Vengeance Paladin with Hate + Sould of Vengeance extra attack.

Both level 17, both 20 in attack stat, both spear +1, both PAM, both make full attacks.

Difference is: Conquest Paladin has Holy Weapon on himself while Vengeance Paladin has Haste. We also assume that enemy BBEG will attack Vengeance pally giving him SoV attack.

Conquest (weapon damage + Dueling + 5 stat + 1 magic + 5 Rebuke + 6 Curse + 2d8 Holy Weapon + 1k8 IDS + 5k8 Smite)

1k4 + 19 + 5k8 + 3k8
1k6 + 19 + 5k8 + 3k8
1k6 + 19 + 5k8 + 3k8

2.5 + 19 + 36 = 57,5
3.5 + 19 + 36 = 58,5
3.5 + 19 + 36 = 58,5

Total = 174,5

vs Vengeace (weaponm + 5 stat + 1 magic + 2 Dueling + IDS + 5k8 Smite).

1k4 + 8 + 6k8
1k6 + 8 + 6k8
1k6 + 8 + 6k8
1k6 + 8 + 6k8
1k6 + 8 + 6k8

2.5 + 8 + 27 = 37,5
3.5 + 8 + 27 = 38,5
3.5 + 8 + 27 = 38,5
3.5 + 8 + 27 = 38,5
3.5 + 8 + 27 = 38,5

Total= 191,5

Of course Vengenace wins and has greater chance of crit, so by no mean I try to say that Conquest will beat Vengeace in 1v1 scenario. But with PAM/Hexblade + Curse + Rebuke Conquest is not a bad 1v1 burster either. He has only 3 attacks he can commit to, but his second CD can guarantee one miss to be hit and secure Nova in furst turn.

174,5 vs 191,5 is not a bad at all. Sure if Vengeance will crit once during whole turn- he will outdamage that more. But it's not too shaby to crit on Conquest too - 2k6 + 19 + 16k8 is quite nice too.

Just wanted to highlight that PAM on Hex-Conquest paladin will paid off in late levels vs BBEG. He can put quite a punch when he can't fear.

[Sception]

@Corran - finally got around to reading the post. Some thoughts (pls excuse typos am on mobile):

If you're only expecting to get to 10th or 12th level, not dipping actually makes sense. Several of the levels when you're arguably better off pure conquest (imo: 1, 5-7, 9, 18, 20) are concentrated in that level range, and as a result even in builds where I do plan to dip, I often don't actually do so until level 10. You have some hassle balancing your casting and attack stats as a result, but so be it.

From the look of your party, it sounds like you'll have three tanks (two with secondary damage specializations, one a secondary support), one support, and two damage dealers. That's an ok balance, if a bit tank heavy. Where I have some concern is on the melee/range balance. Both your damage dealers are able to work at range, so it's not unworkable or anything, but if they both specialize in melee, your party's kind of going to crush most melee encounters already.

If your fighter were a longbow specialist instead of a polearm specialist, or if your barbarian were a second support with more secondary ranged/aoe damage potential than the dream druid, eg a wizard or sorlock, I think that would make for a slightly more well rounded team. I personally wouldn't trade out the paladin, aura of defense is too good to pass up, but an arhument could be made that you'd provide better support for this party as an archer or wizard yourself.

That said, the party does look ok as it is. Just try to keep track of what spells the druid is casting and make a few suggestions if there are better support spells they're missing. And be sure to use your own lay on hands, even a spell slot or two, to help with post fight patching up. Inspiring leader will be a big help here, that was a good call. With only one primary caster in the party, their slots will be at a much greater premium than yours, especially before you pick up aura of conquest. You should honestly probably never be smiting outside of capitalizing on lucky crits in boss encounters, and even spiritual weapon might not be eorth casting very often. The party has plenty of damage output already, and the more of the first aid burden you can shoulder, the more your druid can be a sorta wizard instead of a sorta cleric.

Your plan on using bless a lot is a good call, but you should be doing it right from level 2. Walk around without your blade drawn, so you can open with bless before drawing your weapon in the first round of combat. Given the attack output of your party, bless will almost certainly be contributing more than a first level smite right out the gate.

Honestly, it's around level 6-7, when your save aura has kicked in reducing the need for that half of bless, and your control aura has kicked in dramatically increasing the value of wrathful smite, that you should be cutting back a bit on bless. And even then it's still an option you'll want to keep at the ready. Command & plain old divine smite? well, you might cast it sometimes, but bless, maybe cure wounds, and certainly wrathful smite later on will almost always be better uses of first level slots.

Re second level spells, aid isnt as important, since you're already handing out a mess of thp after every rest with inspiring presance, and they don't stack. AoA suffers a bit of the same issue, and as I mentioned before you probably dont need the damage from spiritual weapon so much. These are all still good spells, but not as critical, so honestly bless, cure wounds, and wrathful smite are still probably at least as good uses of the spell slots much of the time.

The big get is find steed, but the right time to cast find steed is 'yesterday', so it shouldn't be eating too many actual daily slots. Hold person might see some reasonanle use. Regular divine smite once again should be reserved for lucky crits, between support and control, you have better things to do with slots than pure damage in this party.

Re- third level spells. You're right to reserve a slot for revivify in this party, and to have dispel magic memorized. Otherwise, yeah, fear all the way. Don't entirely discount aura of vitality, though. Again, the more of the party's hp needs that can be unloaded onto inspiring presance, your class features, the druids class features, and in a pinch even your spell slots, the more the druids spell slots can be dedicated to combat-defining buff, debuff, and battlefield control spells. A second level cure wounds is probably the better fallback post-combat heal from you after lay on hands is expended, saving first level slots for bless and wrathful smite, and third level slots for fear and revivify, but there will probably be times when aura of vitality is the right call.

You're right to identify saves as a potential weakness of your front line fighters. Another reason to kerp bless around.

I wouldn't bother with shield master. Remember, you can already shove someone prone by giving up one of your attacks. The party has plenty of attacks, so that's not so great of a cost that it warrants burning an entire asi to mitigate it. Especially since, with your aura in effect, a lot of the time you'll only have to knock an enemy prone once and they'll stay prone for the rest of the battle.

Inspiring presance is a worthwhile early feat to pivk up early, especially in this party, but you shouldnt worry about other feats till you've maxed out cha and strength and mitigated concentration saves (probably via resilient con given the lack of multiclassing, though lucky is a potential alternative choice, and warcaster would be the better choice if you were multiclassing). And even then, you can probably find better feats than shield master, though when combined with the bonuses to dexterity saves it isn't a bad choice, I just think you could do better. Eg, with sentinel or ritual caster: wizard. Again, shoving prone is a great idea, but its something you can already do without this feat.

Expecting large combats with multiple enemies is a bit of an issue for your party given the comparative lack of aoe ability. Again, this is part of why its important to make sure your druid is spending as few slots as possible on healing. That said, your CD and Fear spell will help here.

Bluh, there's a bit more but I'm out of time atm. Will be back in another few days. Question: are you fully committed to no multiclassing here? Given the party, it might be worth jumping into bard or divine sorcerer after 8 to 12 levels of conqueror to help boost your support options and take some more pressure off the druid. Just something to think about.

[anthen123]

Just an idea on the Lance build here. Use your mount. You can now use a shield since you can now one hand that lance, so that's an easy AC bonus. It doesn't really cost you anything either since you can summon a practically permanent warhorse.

With a smart horse from the find steed spell, you can even have it try to trample with a 20ft charge, knocking the enemy prone, adding even more synergy with your fear auras. Flavorwise, it's also amazing. Imagine a terrifying armored paladin knocking you down with a great warhorse then harassing you with that great lance while you cower in the ground, unable to even get up and fight back. It's practically the spitting image of a great conqueror.

[Edgerunner]

Rolled stats and starting @LvL 2, V Human DEX build, I have a 19 in one stat and an 18 in the other. When looking at DEX or CHR which stat should I put the 20 in with the free Feat? Which feat would best serve that choice?

[McSkrag]

Just an idea on the Lance build here. Use your mount. You can now use a shield since you can now one hand that lance, so that's an easy AC bonus. It doesn't really cost you anything either since you can summon a practically permanent warhorse.

With a smart horse from the find steed spell, you can even have it try to trample with a 20ft charge, knocking the enemy prone, adding even more synergy with your fear auras. Flavorwise, it's also amazing. Imagine a terrifying armored paladin knocking you down with a great warhorse then harassing you with that great lance while you cower in the ground, unable to even get up and fight back. It's practically the spitting image of a great conqueror.

This is a solid tactic. You just have to be prepared to have your mount killed. Barding and buffs can help your mount but it's still going to be squishy, especially at higher levels.

[Yunru]

It's crazy, so crazy that it needs you to either roll well or be a Half-Elf, but what about multiclassing Long Death Monk 6?
You need your stats all over the place, and it's not ally friendly, but it is an at-will mass frighten.