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Thread: Living on Mars?
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2017-12-11, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Living on Mars?
Sure. The crawler gets partway up the tether and then meets and attaches to a separate cable lowered from the station at the geostationary point. The station hooks the other end to the deadweight crawler, which is suspended off to one side of the main tether.
As the ascending crawler climbs, it lowers the deadweight crawler, which provides most of the energy. Motors onboard the station handle the rest. Sometime between when the ascending crawler reaches the geostationary point and when it arrives at the counterweight, the deadweight crawler detaches and falls, taking precautions to avoid striking the tether on the way down.
The main benefit is that reduced energy requirements near the top of the elevator translate to reduced crawler weight at the bottom.Last edited by Bucky; 2017-12-11 at 03:33 PM.
The gnomes once had many mines, but now they have gnome ore.
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2017-12-11, 03:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
Re: Living on Mars?
You're welcome to explain that to Elon Musk. He's going all-in on his new methane-burning Raptor engine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If29t-bEYWMLast edited by Rakaydos; 2017-12-11 at 04:01 PM.
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2017-12-11, 10:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-12-12, 12:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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2017-12-12, 01:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-12-12, 04:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Living on Mars?
The Hindsight Awards, results: See the best movies of 1999!
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2017-12-12, 11:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
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- Canadia
Re: Living on Mars?
Blue Origin BE-4 is also a Methalox engine. This is the engine that will be used in New Glenn, and probably ULA's Vulcan. I would like to know why you don't think it can be done, though.
(Just as a note, the USAF requires assured access to space, which means they need two distinct launch systems in case one gets grounded. Right now they have Falcon, Atlas, and Delta. Delta is being retired, and they can't use Russian-made RD-180 engines on the Atlas for national security launches. This means they will be dependent on either Vulcan or New Glenn flying. I would be surprised if they were hinging everything on an engine that can't work.)
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2017-12-12, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
Re: Living on Mars?
The rocket engine works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7kqFt3nID4
The rocket as a whole needs some development and construction, but that's how the world works... the SLS has been in developmenet much longer tha the BFR is expected to, due to the difference between corporate priorities (profit) and govermental priorities. (jobs)
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2017-12-12, 11:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
Re: Living on Mars?
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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2017-12-12, 11:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
Re: Living on Mars?
You clearly havn't been paying attention to modern politics. 'Bots are already being used as a weapon to shape the way people think at a national level. Just because they arnt carrying a gun, doesnt mean they cant be used to change our way of life- just look at the Net Neutrality controversy.
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2017-12-12, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
Re: Living on Mars?
Military drones are more Phantom Menace style evil robots, what Musk is worried about is that the robots will take over and turn us into batteries.
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
Omegaupdate Forum
WoTC Forums Archive + Indexing Projext
PostImage, a free and sensible alternative to Photobucket
Temple+ Modding Project for Atari's Temple of Elemental Evil
Morrus' RPG Forum (EN World v2)
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2017-12-12, 12:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
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2017-12-12, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Living on Mars?
I can buy that Mars is a potential fixer-upper, but colonising Venus seems like a very very long-term project to me. I suppose that if you erected a giant parasol at the lagrange point to cut off sunlight you could cool the surface enough to allow landings, but otherwise you're committed to living in giant blimps above a seething cauldron of volcanic gasses and acid rain, with no particularly easy access to building materials. What's the advantage over living in space?
I vaguely recall that Lunar soil is missing some key elements compared with Mars, so it's not as favourable for long-term settlement projects unless you're willing to trade in large volumes with the asteroid belt. I wouldn't complain if someone wants to fund a settlement, though.
I'm not sure if vertical farming is mature enough to feed a Mars colony, but cultured meat would definitely cut the volume needed to sustain a stable population that doesn't use in vitro fertilization or gametogenesis to resist genetic homogenization.Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2017-12-12, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
Re: Living on Mars?
I personally think that launch loops or space fountains are more plausible than elevators from an engineering perspective, and some analyses put the amortised cost of those approaches as low as 3 dollars per kilo. Still, if Musk is talking about 500K dollars for 150K kilograms of payload, then... that's pretty damn competitive, actually. Huh.
Explain?Last edited by Lacuna Caster; 2017-12-12 at 03:18 PM. Reason: spelling
Give directly to the extreme poor.
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2017-12-12, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: Living on Mars?
Does Venus have a half-decent magnetosphere? Protection from solar radiation would be a definite plus.
I would hope that by the time we set up a colony in Venus we'd have mastered robotics to the point they could go down to do the mining for us, rather than send human beings into the mines.
Luna's main selling point is the lack of gravity well, and how that makes ship manufacturing, re-servicing and retooling easier (0-g manufacturing might not be that easy). If that is true, then anything missing from Luna will be easy enough to import, precisely because launching ships from Luna will be cheap.
The trivial answer to this would be "because vertical farms are barely mature enough to feed an Earth population". But I suspect you mean the part about IV and genetic homogenization, in which case, I too would like to hear a detailed explanation for that.
GWLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2017-12-12 at 03:23 PM.
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2017-12-12, 04:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
Re: Living on Mars?
That's just the fuel costs, but yea. Even allowing for, say, tripling the cost per flight for airframe amortization and maintinance, it's the same order of magnatude as the various launch infrastructure.
Also, check out the Orbital Ring concept- it's basically a space fountain that doesnt touch down anywhere, with relatively short (100-200km) cables to earth keeping it stable.
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2017-12-12, 04:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Living on Mars?
Venus does not have an internally generated magnetic field, but it's not quite that simple. https://www.astrobio.net/also-in-new...se-from-venus/ has more information. Still sounds like Venus's upper atmosphere is not a great place to be in terms of radiation.
Last edited by Excession; 2017-12-12 at 04:18 PM.
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2017-12-12, 07:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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Re: Living on Mars?
I on the other hand don't think that's so. The gravity is way too low for an Earthlike atmosphere to stay long past it being dropped in.
The lack of gravity is perhaps a problem for child development and human life in general.
It's cold and that can't easily be fixed.
but colonising Venus seems like a very very long-term project to me. I suppose that if you erected a giant parasol at the lagrange point to cut off sunlight you could cool the surface enough to allow landings.
Once the temperature is somewhere reasonable, plant life would love all the CO2, and bacteria would love the sulphur, then it's a matter of getting some water there, and then it'll be a nice place.
What's the advantage over living in space?
I vaguely recall that Lunar soil is missing some key elements compared with Mars, so it's not as favourable for long-term settlement projects unless you're willing to trade in large volumes with the asteroid belt. I wouldn't complain if someone wants to fund a settlement, though.
Explain?
It's a couple of weeks away, not a couple of years, so we can get help there, or move someone from there here, if the timescale isn't too tight (appendicitis would have to be dealt with in situ). It's a lot better than Mars in terms of accessibility, and we know the temperature is on average tolerable.
I think a viable Moonbase is one of the first steps we ought to take into space, it's on the way wherever we're going.Last edited by halfeye; 2017-12-12 at 07:40 PM.
The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.
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2017-12-12, 08:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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2017-12-12, 08:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
Re: Living on Mars?
Lol... he's not WRONG exactly... but that's the danger of averages. it's too hot during the 14 days of daylight and too cold during the 14 days of night, but if you could average that out somehow, either by being underground or some kind of heat battery, it shouldnt be too bad.
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2017-12-12, 08:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Living on Mars?
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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2017-12-13, 12:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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2017-12-13, 02:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Living on Mars?
I'm sure you keep bringing this up, and I keep giving the same answer--define "long". There is evidence that Mars used to have running water on its surface--running water which had time to erode rocks. Therefore, it must have had a decently thick atmosphere for millions of years. I'm pretty sure everybody would be OK with us giving Mars an atmosphere, knowing we'll have to top it up after a few million years.
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2017-12-13, 11:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Living on Mars?
@halfeye:
Gravity's impact on child development is potentially a real problem. We need more research on what would happen, but current indications are that microgravity is bad. Mars isn't exactly microgravity (~3/8 G), but could still be problematic. This is your best point against a Martian outpost.
The atmospheric issue is brought on not by gravity, but by solar wind and very weak magnetosphere. Mars' gravity, as low as it is, can sustain an atmosphere with enough pressure to support life. This is supported by the planet's own geological record. We'd still need to somehow produce enough of a magnetic field to deflect the erosive charged particles being kicked out by the sun. Fission plants powering a planet-wide electrical grid would be one possibility. Another one is colliding asteroids in orbit around Mars to produce a substantially larger moon, which would then jump-start convection in the planet's interior by way of tidal forces.
If Mars can sustain an atmosphere, warming is possible using carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gasses. Between the challenges of heating up or cooling down bodies in a vacuum, heating up is far, far easier to accomplish. (Note that the interior of Mars is toasty. The planet's core is still magma.)
By comparison, Venus has an enormous amount of heat. Even with the sun's radiation blocked, the planet would need ages to cool down. This isn't a thousand year problem, but a million year one. Losing heat into a vacuum is just that slow.
Until we can put structures on Venus that don't immediately melt into slag, we'd be stuck in orbit at microgravity.
I agree with the lunar outpost idea. The moon is certainly the next step in a logical progression from Antarctic stations and ISS. The challenges look similar to those presented by creating an outpost on another planet.Last edited by Leewei; 2017-12-13 at 11:45 AM.
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2017-12-13, 01:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Living on Mars?
I imagine the most interesting aspect of colonization is how quickly colonists would become their own species. The gravity on the moon is so low that very large, low muscle humans would quickly become the norm. Less pressure on joints and heart could easily lead to 10+ foot tall humanoids who can't breed with Earthlings at all.
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2017-12-13, 01:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: Living on Mars?
Oh, there's an interesting idea. It'd take a hellishly large amount of asteroids, though, and I'm not sure how well they'd coalesce into a moon. Wouldn't you need to smack 'em hard enough to melt them together?
No, the plan would be to have balloons floating in 1-atm, rather than in orbit. I believe that at that altitude, gravity would still be pretty Earth-like, and the amount of sulfuric acid rain would be manageable. What the people in said balloon cities would do to pass the time, though, that's where "having robots that can go down to the surface to mine" would come in.
ETA:
I don't know about that. IVF would allow for a significant period of interbreeding even after the point where it becomes physically unfeasible.
GWLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2017-12-13 at 01:52 PM.
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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2017-12-13, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Living on Mars?
Citation needed. The cause of atmosphere loss AIUI is the speed of gas molecules exceeding escape velocity, which is why all that's left is CO2 (which is heavy, and thus has a low enough velocity at current Martian temperatures that it doesn't exceed escape velocity). The kinetic energy of gas molecules depends on temperature, only, that's what temperature is, and thus the speed at a given temperature depends on the mass of the molecule. Hydrogen and helium escape from Earth because their velocity is above escape velocity, luckily hydrogen usually bonds with something else before that happens, but helium is rare and getting rarer.
This is supported by the planet's own geological record.
We'd still need to somehow produce enough of a magnetic field to deflect the erosive charged particles being kicked out by the sun. Fission plants powering a planet-wide electrical grid would be one possibility. Another one is colliding asteroids in orbit around Mars to produce a substantially larger moon, which would then jump-start convection in the planet's interior by way of tidal forces.
If Mars can sustain an atmosphere, warming is possible using carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gasses. Between the challenges of heating up or cooling down bodies in a vacuum, heating up is far, far easier to accomplish. (Note that the interior of Mars is toasty. The planet's core is still magma.)
By comparison, Venus has an enormous amount of heat. Even with the sun's radiation blocked, the planet would need ages to cool down. This isn't a thousand year problem, but a million year one. Losing heat into a vacuum is just that slow.
Until we can put structures on Venus that don't immediately melt into slag, we'd be stuck in orbit at microgravity.
I agree with the lunar outpost idea. The moon is certainly the next step in a logical progression from Antarctic stations and ISS. The challenges look similar to those presented by creating an outpost on another planet.Last edited by halfeye; 2017-12-13 at 02:15 PM.
The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.
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2017-12-13, 02:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Living on Mars?
That is fair I suppose. I imagine the communities would seperate pretty quick though, as Mooninites couldn't survive on Earth and Earthlings would be tiny compared to natural Mooninites.
Even 1 generation in would be a big difference, as the cartilidge in a Mooninite would fill with liquid and not compress during the day and would grow more during childhood.
You might get a lot of old folk colonization as it would keep their mobilility more into old age though. The moon as a retirement center is the moat hilarious ending.
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2017-12-13, 02:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Living on Mars?
The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.
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2017-12-13, 02:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: Living on Mars?
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est