OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

[Fyraltari]

Not to say he died dishonorably, but I take issue with him dying because he took the right path. He died because he was too trusting of Malack regarding the protection spell.

Heroically sure, and in defense of his friends, but his blind trust of authority was not painted as an asset in my mind.

Huh. That's not a trust of authority that's a trust of an individual. I'm not saying he made the right decisions his whole life or that he had good tactics in this fight (I wouldn't know) I'm just saying that all the moral choices he made in that very room where the right ones.

[Michaeler]

Durkon's final act was to protect others.

I'd say that counts, even if he used words to do it.

[Ruck]

Sad to see Hilgya this bitter about what happened, but hey, if familiarity breeds piercing damage, I'm not about to correct her until after the problem is dealt with.

I thought clerics couldn't use piercing weapons.

I also wonder why people are so confident that Giant would never let the baby come to serious harm. I actually hope that isn't the case because that would basically hand Hilgya a big "get out of stupid" free card.

Given the Giant's other statements on the subject, I don't think he would introduce a baby into the story for a significant amount of time just to kill that baby.

Unrelated, it just occurred to me: Do we really know Durkon doesn't know Hilgya tried to poison her husband? Sure, it was a flashback panel, but the cast breaks the fourth wall so often, it's entirely possible Durkon saw it. (After some of the conversation in this thread, I'm thinking about how Haley and the Cleric of Loki realized Pete sold them out because of the cutaway panel, for example, even if they didn't see the exact contents. Hardly the only example, anyway.)

[Cazero]

Do we really know Durkon doesn't know Hilgya tried to poison her husband?

Hilgya's words on the husband : "Nah, he's alive and well. Not for lack of trying on my part, though. You have no idea how tough that +2 racial bonus against poison is to overcome !"
The implication is kinda clear.

[goodpeople25]

Not to say he died dishonorably, but I take issue with him dying because he took the right path. He died because he was too trusting of Malack regarding the protection spell.

Heroically sure, and in defense of his friends, but his blind trust of authority was not painted as an asset in my mind.

Really, is blind trust really the only explanation for not seeing a backdoor coming? And dying because Malack could get around to his spell isn't necessarily the same as him dying because he used the spell/trusted Malack at all. I suppose I can see a possible scenario with the latter but it's a whole lot of stretching to me.

[Ruck]

Hilgya's words on the husband : "Nah, he's alive and well. Not for lack of trying on my part, though. You have no idea how tough that +2 racial bonus against poison is to overcome !"
The implication is kinda clear.

Right, I don't know how that completely slipped my mind, especially since I've cited it before.

If dying of cold in a storm counts as honorable AND wether or not you had a choice doesn't count then being sacrificed by the gods in their struggle to save reality would be honorable.

No one said anything about competence.

"Dying of cold in a storm" doesn't necessarily count as honorable. If you're referring to the specific example the Giant used, it was "dying in a storm while attempting to complete a mission crucial for the clan's survival."

I don't think Korvin et al. actually disagree with any of that. I think they're just drawing a distinction between "irrational" and "terrible." Like, the difference between "her actions make no sense; she's a terrible person for that," and "her actions make perfect sense (to her) because she's a terrible person." (Yes that's over simplifying, I'm trying to avoid a giant wall o' text ) YMMV if that's a distinction worth making.

This is pretty much my position. I can empathize with Hilgya and understand her rationale, while also thinking she is probably Chaotic Evil and that my own course of action would be entirely different.

I'll go out on a limb here and say that Rich does not intend to be writing, "She repeatedly tried and failed to abort her pregnancy, but after unwillingly giving birth she 'accepted her new life as a mother.'"

Yeah, I'll co-sign that.

[Fyraltari]

"Dying of cold in a storm" doesn't necessarily count as honorable. If you're referring to the specific example the Giant used, it was "dying in a storm while attempting to complete a mission crucial for the clan's survival."

My point with that example was that combat was not necessary to have an honorable death.

[are]

I'm continually amazed at the variety of expressions of each alignment that Rich is able to show in this comic. Chaotics range from Belkar to Elan to Haley to Xykon to Thog to Hilgya to (maybe) Nale and the difference in bearing and behavior of all of these characters, even those in the same good-evil block, is astronomical.

It must be hard to live when you take literally everything anyone suggests as a direct threat to your freedom. The way that Hilgya bristled and pushed back hard at Roy's suggestion that she probably shouldn't bring an infant into a fight with a ton of vampires was jarring.

[schmunzel]

Not to say he died dishonorably, but I take issue with him dying because he took the right path. He died because he was too trusting of Malack regarding the protection spell.

Heroically sure, and in defense of his friends, but his blind trust of authority was not painted as an asset in my mind.

what blind trust of authority? While I agree he shouldnt have trusted Malack it certainly wasnt because of him thinking that Malack had any form of authority over him.
Durkon could have just walked away (Malack tried to persuade him) but he chose to fight it out because Malack (and his plans) were in essence the antithesis of all he stood for.

So he took the hard (and honorable) path and tried to fight Malack and save Belkar while at it.

sch

[Kish]

I thought clerics couldn't use piercing weapons.

They couldn't--in 1ed or 2ed.

That restriction's as long gone as the one that said Hilgya, a dwarf, couldn't be a cleric of the level she is now anyway.

[Jasdoif]

I thought clerics couldn't use piercing weapons.

Depends on the edition I believe; 3.5 doesn't have that restriction.

EDIT: Knishja'd?

[DaggerPen]

On the one hand, awww. I like the DaggerPen. On the other hand, for the love of Freya, don't read the last two discussion threads.

Prominent members of the cast introduced after strip 40 or so do seem to generate a lot of controversy. I mean, you've got Thog, Hilgya, Miko, Malack, Tarquin, Laurin, Therkla, Andi and Bandana, Celia, ...

How dare you, good sir, speak ill of 1105, the exquisite work of art we all worked hard to create? Shame on you, sir. Shame. On. You. For why go through the soul-wrenching process of creating [57 pages of] pure unadulterated art, if not to unleash its unrivaled beauty upon unsuspecting innocent third parties? If not to raise existential questions such as: Where do we come from? Why do we exist? Why the Hel does this exist? ...You're a philistine, my good man, of this there can be no doubt. Also what happened at 1106? I thought it was reasonably fine... Did I miss something?

... what the heck did you guys do??

Not to say he died dishonorably, but I take issue with him dying because he took the right path. He died because he was too trusting of Malack regarding the protection spell.

Heroically sure, and in defense of his friends, but his blind trust of authority was not painted as an asset in my mind.

Bravery knows no limits!!

Seriously, this is a culture wherein dying while fighting a tree counts as an honorable death. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that 'sense' and 'thinking things through' are not prerequisites.

[Gordreg]

Also, wow, Hilgya is holding a serious grudge against Durkon.

She's a dwarf. Holding grudges is one of their things, though I wouldn't have suspected Hilgya was all that traditionalist.

[Jasdoif]

... what the heck did you guys do??

It took 40 pages, but someone was successfully convinced that "wanton murder is not inherently a solution to oppression" as a result of it. I think civilization came out ahead.

[schmunzel]

It took 40 pages, but someone was successfully convinced that "wanton murder is not inherently a solution to oppression" as a result of it. I think civilization came out ahead.

The problem is that we might have convinced someone that wanton murder might be one solution for completely derailed Internet Discussion Forum threads.
Im not sure but in the big picture we might have come out where we started.


sch

[Dr.Zero]

Adding some more lines about Hilgya and her decision to put her son in danger, hoping the point I'm going to make wasn't made already by someone else (yes, I'm reading the thread jumping here and there!): let's not forget OOTS-verse is not our universe.

PC-adventurers have constantly random encounters. I cannot say for sure that this is supposed to be extended to NPC as well, but, well, for example seeing the things from the perspective of the gnome who Belkar killed, Belkar was a random encounter. And we know that NPCs have their own adventures and their own story (ie: Tarquin and the Vector Legion, Redcloak, Julio...)

As a cleric, she must obey to her God and be ready for the missions he might give her and we have already seen that He sent her at least once in a dungeon.

So either she gives up completely her God, her clerical stuff, her adventurer nature, settles down in a town and raises her little dwarf son away from danger (hoping that the town where she settles down is not stormed by some Nale or some Crystal-golem or conquered by some Tarquin wannabe or invaded by some evil army under the command of an evil lich) or she has to go on with adventuring and with gaining levels to be ready for missions/dangers.

And, even supposing that she settles down and never has a random encounter and never the town where she decided to live is stormed by some crazy mass murderer, at some point she must explain to her pampered and overprotected son that he must die with honor or go to Hel. This leaving aside the consequences of abandoning her God, if He asks her to accomplish some mission like He did already (and thus, refusing to obey, losing her clerical powers).

Or she might continue to go adventuring and leave her son in the aforementioned town, under the tutelage of someone else... hoping that this "someone else" is not in slave trade business, for example. And none of the disasters mentioned above happens.

I mean, we have literally no idea how dangerous is the OOTS world, aside for what we have seen for PCs. And for what we have seen through their lives, it seems quite dangerous: enemies popping out left and right, trying to kill them, sometimes only over quasi-imagined slights. We have anyway seen: Azure City, major town bastion of good, destroyed; Cliffport, easily stormed by Nale and his gang, and only the PCs had enough levels to stop them; The whole Western continent, dominated by warlords, and by the Vector Legion multiempire; Tinkertown, stormed by an unstoppable golem, and only the PCs had enough levels to stop her; dirt farmers kidnapped by ogres; Dwarven land stormed by vampires and needing help from high level PCs.

Hell, statistically this is like a 100% unsafe world!

[schmunzel]

Adding some more lines about Hilgya and her decision to put her son in danger,
<snip>
I mean, we have literally no idea how dangerous is the OOTS world, aside for what we have seen for PCs. And for what we have seen through their lives, it seems quite dangerous: enemies popping out left and right, trying to kill them, sometimes only over quasi-imagined slights. We have anyway seen: Azure City, major town bastion of good, destroyed; Cliffport, easily stormed by Nale and his gang, and only the PCs had enough levels to stop them; The whole Western continent, dominated by warlords, and by the Vector Legion multiempire; Tinkertown, stormed by an unstoppable golem, and only the PCs had enough levels to stop her; dirt farmers kidnapped by ogres; Dwarven land stormed by vampires and needing help from high level PCs.

Hell, statistically this is like a 100% unsafe world!

On the whole I think its an apt point. Danger is much more normal for these people (dwarves) than for us.
One issue I have with your assessment is, that we only see the action.
We wouldnt see the situation unless it was exciting / driving the plot etc
So these Situations are probably not indicative for everyday situations.

Unless its a Schroedingers world with every situation being undecided between peaceful and hostile unless the author peeks in and determines the situations state. Then all inhabitants proably pray that Rich looks the other way :P


sch

[Dr.Zero]

On the whole I think its an apt point. Danger is much more normal for these people (dwarves) than for us.
One issue I have with your assessment is, that we only see the action.
We wouldnt see the situation unless it was exciting / driving the plot etc
So these Situations are probably not indicative for everyday situations.

Unless its a Schroedingers world with every situation being undecided between peaceful and hostile unless the author peeks in and determines the situations state. Then all inhabitants proably pray that Rich looks the other way :P


sch

Exactly!
Rich is the real Eldritch Abomination OOTS world must fear, not the Snarl!

(The statistically 100% unsafe world had a hint of humor, of course.
But if one really thinks about it, leaving aside the meta-explanation "The PCs are disasters magnet!" OOTS world comes out really closer to a crapsack world than to our relatively safe world.
Thus making assumptions about the danger level of living in a way or another might be really a gamble)

[The MunchKING]

Hell, statistically this is like a 100% unsafe world!

To counterpoint, we ARE seeing the world from the PCs perspective. They are professional heroes. They go where danger is, not as much visa versa. Note that of those you mentioned, only the dirt farmer thing was a NPC being threatened over something that wasn't related to the PCs or the quest to take over the world.

Also there's the fateful Aura thing, where BECAUSE they are PCs they get in a lot more fights than are strictly speaking normal or average for the world.

[a1chemi]

what blind trust of authority? While I agree he shouldnt have trusted Malack it certainly wasnt because of him thinking that Malack had any form of authority over him.
Durkon could have just walked away (Malack tried to persuade him) but he chose to fight it out because Malack (and his plans) were in essence the antithesis of all he stood for.

So he took the hard (and honorable) path and tried to fight Malack and save Belkar while at it.

sch

Aside from Miko, which could be argued to have been due to her being a paladin and the signs from Thor...

There was leaving Roy imprisoned: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0733.html

And here regarding Malack:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0743.html

He trusts Malack because he was "nothing but polite" and waves away Malack being willing to feed Elan to a dragon and Tarquin pushing Haley off a ledge as "misunderstandings".

The only way to justify those as misunderstandings is with respect to Malack's position of authority and lawful alignment (which does not necessarily mean authority directly over Durkon). "Malack was going to feed you to dragon becaue he thought you were a criminal and he is the law".

He also sat on his thumbs following around Hinjo while Roy was dead, unable to find a productive direction without a leader. It's not really the same thing but I find them to be related.

[goodpeople25]

Aside from Miko, which could be argued to have been due to her being a paladin and the signs from Thor...

There was leaving Roy imprisoned: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0733.html

And here regarding Malack:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0743.html

He trusts Malack because he was "nothing but polite" and waves away Malack being willing to feed Elan to a dragon and Tarquin pushing Haley off a ledge as "misunderstandings".

The only way to justify those as misunderstandings is with respect to Malack's position of authority and lawful alignment (which does not necessarily mean authority directly over Durkon). "Malack was going to feed you to dragon becaue he thought you were a criminal and he is the law".

He also sat on his thumbs following around Hinjo while Roy was dead, unable to find a productive direction without a leader. It's not really the same thing but I find them to be related.

Okay I can see more of where your coming from in regards to blind trust to authority now, but I'm still fuzzy on how exactly you connect it to Durkon's death. (And I'm definitely still dubious of the scenario that he died because of the backdoor)

[Peelee]

Also what happened at 1106? I thought it was reasonably fine... Did I miss something?

Couldn't remember which thread it was, and I'm slightly lazy.

It took 40 pages, but someone was successfully convinced that "wanton murder is not inherently a solution to oppression" as a result of it. I think civilization came out ahead.

"Wanton murder" is underselling it a bit, IIRC.

[Lord Joeltion]

It took 40 pages, but someone was successfully convinced that "wanton murder is not inherently a solution to oppression" as a result of it. I think civilization came out ahead.

Wait, what do you mean it's not? Gotta go fix meself a couple alibis then...

[Bob_McSurly]

And here regarding Malack:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0743.html

He trusts Malack because he was "nothing but polite" and waves away Malack being willing to feed Elan to a dragon and Tarquin pushing Haley off a ledge as "misunderstandings".

Maybe that wasn't smart in hindsight, but it seems to me like he made a sensible judgment based on the information he had.

[schmunzel]

Aside from Miko, which could be argued to have been due to her being a paladin and the signs from Thor...

There was leaving Roy imprisoned: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0733.html

And here regarding Malack:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0743.html

He trusts Malack because he was "nothing but polite" and waves away Malack being willing to feed Elan to a dragon and Tarquin pushing Haley off a ledge as "misunderstandings".

The only way to justify those as misunderstandings is with respect to Malack's position of authority and lawful alignment (which does not necessarily mean authority directly over Durkon). "Malack was going to feed you to dragon becaue he thought you were a criminal and he is the law".

He also sat on his thumbs following around Hinjo while Roy was dead, unable to find a productive direction without a leader. It's not really the same thing but I find them to be related.

Okay I can see more of where your coming from in regards to blind trust to authority now, but I'm still fuzzy on how exactly you connect it to Durkon's death. (And I'm definitely still dubious of the scenario that he died because of the backdoor)

Yup he believes in Authority -even to an unhealthy degree - I agree with you

I will join goodpeople however in stating that that had no direct impact on his choices and deeds in his final fight

On second thought he *could* have been a bit more distrustful though of Malacks help in creating the death ward spell.
I would chalk that up as naivity though (caused by his blind trust in Malack - there is your point)


sch

[Ruck]

My point with that example was that combat was not necessary to have an honorable death.

Ah, gotcha.

They couldn't--in 1ed or 2ed.

That restriction's as long gone as the one that said Hilgya, a dwarf, couldn't be a cleric of the level she is now anyway.

I guess that's what I get for the last D&D game I played being Baldur's Gate.

[Keltest]

Ah, gotcha.

I guess that's what I get for the last D&D game I played being Baldur's Gate.

In fairness, the only bladed weapons that clerics have native proficiency with are daggers and sickles, so its not an unreasonable assumption to make. If they want to use swords or the like, they need to burn a feat on the proficiency or take a dip into another class that has it.

[Luccan]

In fairness, the only bladed weapons that clerics have native proficiency with are daggers and sickles, so its not an unreasonable assumption to make. If they want to use swords or the like, they need to burn a feat on the proficiency or take a dip into another class that has it.

Or take the War domain with an appropriate deity.

[goodpeople25]

Or be an Elf or something.

[Lethologica]

Not to say he died dishonorably, but I take issue with him dying because he took the right path. He died because he was too trusting of Malack regarding the protection spell.

Heroically sure, and in defense of his friends, but his blind trust of authority was not painted as an asset in my mind.

It cannot be said that Durkon acted optimally in all the circumstances leading to his death, but that's a highly reductive notion of 'the right path'. He died because he fought from a disadvantageous position, but that has nothing to do with whether he acted wrongly. And while Durkon may have initially given Malack the benefit of the doubt due to his status as a legal authority, that's not a primary basis of his trust in Malack over the course of their relationship, so I strongly disagree with the idea that Durkon didn't spot the backdoor due to blind trust of authority.