OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

[Kish]

What is revealed in these last couple strips that wasn't previously, is that Durkon and Hilgya didn't use any form of protection. Which is believably, but somewhat disappointingly, careless, and does mean "hey, maybe she's pregnant" should have gone through Durkon's mind at some point.

(If it turns out that Roy and Celia haven't been using any form of protection, that will be more disappointing, due to the difference in circumstances.)

[Bob_McSurly]

Also, Giant, if you're reading this:

It's my birthday tomorrow ;)


What better present than OOTS 1108?

[Goblin_Priest]

What? Seriously? I'd never heard of that rule before... As if they needed to make AC weaker than it already is...

You've never heard of a coup de grace before?

I want only to point out the "completely at an opponent's mercy" of the "helpless" rule, before asking a simple question: according to your interpretation, the kid doesn't get the bonus in AC from his "wearer" because he is not an object[*]; on the other hand, according to the rules, a clockwork doll built in Tinkertown which had the same shape, dimension and aesthetic of the kid, and which could simulate baby's random movements mechanically because of its clockwork mechanism, would get that bonus without any doubt: it is an object and it is worn; doesn't this make you think then that the distinction you're making is a bit stretched and creates some incoherence?

[*] Even here, I don't want to start to debate the point, since I don't want to go all Dr Manhattan.

"A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy." Bolded for emphasis. It could certainly be argued that he is not completely at an oppenent's mercy, and that RAI a coup de grace should not be possible and that the helpless condition, in general, should not apply, but that's not my interpretation of the RAW. And even if that was the case, there's still debuffs for being pinned/entangled/etc.

As for the clockwork doll, sounds like you are describing an animate object to me, which therefore would be a creature and not an object. I don't recall that specific doll, though.

I also don't think the analogy is relevant. Creatures don't turn into objects when they stop moving, lose consciousness, become paralyzed, etc. A living creature is not an object, even if he may be carried similarly.

(...)

If OOTS mythology is anything like that, there really wasn't much Durkon could do; sleeping with an unattached woman is one thing , adultery is something else entirely.

This did not constitute 'abandonment' of a pregnant mother , because at the time neither Durkon nor Hilgya nor anyone on the forums thought for a minute she was pregnant. Getting pregnant from one round of sex is not common in the OOTS universe; Roy and ... what's her name? Forget off hand ... have shtupped every time they met, and no pregnancy has resulted. Elan and Haley have been so busy pretty much everyone in the last book noticed, but there has been no harvest from their wild oats. Belkar hasn't been a blushing virgin either. The only member of the cast who hasn't been sexually active on panel is Vaarsuvius, presumably because V was married and already has kids.

There has been exactly one pregnancy, and that was completely unexpected by everyone. Durkon cannot be held responsible for what he didn't know. Especially if he and Hilgya used protection. I dunno if it was in a prequel book or in the strip proper, but Eugene eluded to protection spells for this sort of thing -- one of which failed, which is why Roy exists. So ... a one time event, between two clerics who presumably understand about precautions? Highly improbable.

(...).

Roy's girlfriend is an outsider. He's a human. Though there are some specific cases where such crosses are possible, I don't think outsider/humanoid relations can all create offspring by default. In this case, they are both dwarves.

Not sure how fertility and contraception work in the OotSverse, but I'm guessing that detail can account for a lot of it. I'm also not really aware of many other cases of sex and pregnancy in this comic, the only that comes to mind are the azurite guards, who they too did not seem to use contraception and thus married afterwards.

[georgie_leech]

You've never heard of a coup de grace before?



"A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy." Bolded for emphasis. It could certainly be argued that he is not completely at an oppenent's mercy, and that RAI a coup de grace should not be possible and that the helpless condition, in general, should not apply, but that's not my interpretation of the RAW. And even if that was the case, there's still debuffs for being pinned/entangled/etc.

As for the clockwork doll, sounds like you are describing an animate object to me, which therefore would be a creature and not an object. I don't recall that specific doll, though.

I also don't think the analogy is relevant. Creatures don't turn into objects when they stop moving, lose consciousness, become paralyzed, etc. A living creature is not an object, even if he may be carried similarly.

Not an animate creature, just a wind up doll. Or if you prefer, a regular doll; is it your contention that this worn doll is harder to hit because it's a carried object?

[brian 333]

Look up the rules for striking an item held by an opponent. Kudzie is safer than some might think, and abjurations from a nearly epic level cleric can nullify even very powerful attacks. I'd start by buffing Kuddles with every AoE defense Hilgya can get, then giving him stoneskin. The only real worries then are AoE attacks of an energy type you can't buff against or negative energy ranged touch attacks.

[zimmerwald1915]

nearly epic level cleric

^{[citation needed]}

[8BitNinja]

Just as long as this doesn't lead to you becoming an anti-paladin

I'm not saying I'll do it. It's something that I know I shouldn't find funny, but somehow I do anyways.

[Keltest]

I'm not saying I'll do it. It's something that I know I shouldn't find funny, but somehow I do anyways.

Are paladins allowed to have a sense of humor?

[Goblin_Priest]

Not an animate creature, just a wind up doll. Or if you prefer, a regular doll; is it your contention that this worn doll is harder to hit because it's a carried object?

I'm just arguing what I think is Rules as Written. I wouldn't have any issue adjudicating as a DM that a baby could be treated as an object in such cases, but I don't believe the rules as written would allow it, and I don't believe that baby and an inanimate object would be treated the same by the game rules even if they were to be functionally the same.

Look up the rules for striking an item held by an opponent. Kudzie is safer than some might think, and abjurations from a nearly epic level cleric can nullify even very powerful attacks. I'd start by buffing Kuddles with every AoE defense Hilgya can get, then giving him stoneskin. The only real worries then are AoE attacks of an energy type you can't buff against or negative energy ranged touch attacks.

^{[citation needed]}

Yea what this guy says. There is zero reason to believe she is near-epic level. The only thing we have to go upon to predict her level is the nemesis mechanics described by Haley, where a nemesis automatically levels to match the PC.

So she is either the same level as Durkon, or Durkon's level + vampire's LA.

And we happen to have seen another cleric of her level in combat. Durkon. Against Roy. Both of them could very well hit each other.

I think it fair to assume that this fight will be a level-appropriate encounter, and in such an encounter, there is no way to 100% shield oneself from attacks, much less shield another given many buffs can only target the caster.

I also find it fair to assume that this baby has 1hp, terrible will saves, and sub-par AC, at the very best. It also probably has a number of other weak points we can't predict. Shielding against all forms of damage (fire, sonic, cold, force, etc.) is pretty much impossible. Indeed, other than Shield, what blocks the lowly Magic Missile, which never misses?

[Sir_Norbert]

There is zero reason to believe she is near-epic level. The only thing we have to go upon to predict her level is the nemesis mechanics described by Haley, where a nemesis automatically levels to match the PC.

So she is either the same level as Durkon, or Durkon's level + vampire's LA.

At that, we have no reason at the moment to think this mechanic applies to Hilgya, only a wild guess.

[Dr.Zero]

You've never heard of a coup de grace before?



"A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy." Bolded for emphasis. It could certainly be argued that he is not completely at an oppenent's mercy, and that RAI a coup de grace should not be possible and that the helpless condition, in general, should not apply, but that's not my interpretation of the RAW. And even if that was the case, there's still debuffs for being pinned/entangled/etc.

As for the clockwork doll, sounds like you are describing an animate object to me, which therefore would be a creature and not an object. I don't recall that specific doll, though.

Yeah, well, I can only add that I never realized that when my little cousin was playing with her baby doll (dear god, it still exists and does the same things it was used to do more than twenty years ago! so much for the "digital era") she was playing with a "creature"[*].

I restate my previous judgement: you're a bit stretching it.


[*] Really, again, I might go on a tangent about the relation between "animated object", "creature" and "worn creature, which is a creature, is animated, but cannot be considered an object, even if physically there is no reason to consider it differently", but, again, I'd sound too much Dr Manhattna-like.

[brian 333]

^{[citation needed]}

Nemesis rules were clearly established by the Haley/Crystal arc, and Hilgya's turning of a minimum of 32HD of undead with one turning attempt. Both offer clues to Hilgya's minimum level.

[hroþila]

Nemesis rules were clearly established by the Haley/Crystal arc, and Hilgya's turning of a minimum of 32HD of undead with one turning attempt. Both offer clues to Hilgya's minimum level.

Haley and Crystal spent some five years up each other's business, practically their whole adult life before the start of DCF. Hilgya and Durkon spent a few hours together. There's no comparison.

[unbeliever536]

Nemesis rules were clearly established by the Haley/Crystal arc, and Hilgya's turning of a minimum of 32HD of undead with one turning attempt. Both offer clues to Hilgya's minimum level.

You mean 24 HD.

[SilverCacaobean]

You've never heard of a coup de grace before?

Nope. I only know some rules by video games, but never noticed this rule. I know the phrase though.

[Fyraltari]

Nope. I only know some rules by video games, but never noticed this rule. I know the phrase though.

It looks like that.

[SilverCacaobean]

It looks like that.

Ah, right, I'd forgotten that one. Anyway, my knowledge about d&d ends at nwn rules and while I see it exists there as well, the way it was described with the "full-round action" (which I'm assuming is an action that takes the whole round ) threw me off and it never crossed my mind it's just what you do to sleeping people.

[The MunchKING]

Roy's girlfriend is an outsider. He's a human. Though there are some specific cases where such crosses are possible, I don't think outsider/humanoid relations can all create offspring by default.

He’s a HUMAN. They are right up there with dragons for making little half-breeds of every species they can find. Heck V even specifically calls the phenomenon “well documented”.

[zimmerwald1915]

He’s a HUMAN. They are right up there with dragons for making little half-breeds of every species they can find. Heck V even specifically calls the phenomenon “well documented”.

I'm pretty sure Planetouched can be born to any mortal race, but that may just be Pathfinder talking.

[a1chemi]

Haley and Crystal spent some five years up each other's business, practically their whole adult life before the start of DCF. Hilgya and Durkon spent a few hours together. There's no comparison.

All of which happened off panel. Hilgya has spent nearly the entire comic time brewing her rage against Durkom off panel. It's not the same thing, but it's also not "no comparison".

The point of the "nemesis rules" is that it provides an interesting story, because otherwise adventuring heroee would steamroll their nemesis who sits in a town somewhere not killing high level monsters in a party.

In this case it still applies because the Order needs a cleric of about their level to make a good, exciting fight against the vampire clerics. She needs to be able to stand up to Durkula because it makes a better story.

[brian 333]

You mean 24 HD.

At +8 HD per vampire and four vampires turned the minimum is 32 HD. Even if she only turned three of them, 24 HD plus 1 character level each is the very minimum HD Hilgya turned.

2d6+caster level+ Charisma modifier is the formula for total HD turned in a single attempt.

Assume she rolled a 12 with a +4 Cha modifier. This would make, at the minimum 27 HD demonstrably turned in the comic, Hilgya's minimum level 11.

Assume a more likely 7 rolled with a +2 mod, and you now have Hilgya clocking in at level 18.

With 11 being the very minimum level possible and a significantly higher level being logical given what has been shown in game, I stand by my comment that Hilgya is of nearly epic level.

[unbeliever536]

At +8 HD per vampire and four vampires turned the minimum is 32 HD. Even if she only turned three of them, 24 HD plus 1 character level each is the very minimum HD Hilgya turned.

2d6+caster level+ Charisma modifier is the formula for total HD turned in a single attempt.

Assume she rolled a 12 with a +4 Cha modifier. This would make, at the minimum 27 HD demonstrably turned in the comic, Hilgya's minimum level 11.

Assume a more likely 7 rolled with a +2 mod, and you now have Hilgya clocking in at level 18.

With 11 being the very minimum level possible and a significantly higher level being logical given what has been shown in game, I stand by my comment that Hilgya is of nearly epic level.

We're looking at either regular vampires or vampire spawn. You are correct(ish) if these are all full vampires, but that's unlikely. If we're looking at four spawn, we've got four undead with 4 HD and 2 turn resistance, for a total effective HD of 24. Note also that the four are turned but not destroyed, so Hilgya has a maximum level of one less than twice their effective hit dice. If they are spawn, Hilgya must be at most level 11 with at least Cha 14, or lower level with correspondingly higher minimum charisma. A vampire has at least 5 HD and 4 turn resistance. If we're looking at four 5th level vampires, she has a maximum level of 17 and a minimum turn check result of 36. With a roll of 12, this requires a charisma of 24. A mixed group of spawn and regular vampires is probably the least likely; her maximum level remains 11 but her minimum charisma shoots up to 20 if we have one vampire and three spawn.

[Nomen]

All of which happened off panel. Hilgya has spent nearly the entire comic time brewing her rage against Durkom off panel. It's not the same thing, but it's also not "no comparison".

The point of the "nemesis rules" is that it provides an interesting story, because otherwise adventuring heroee would steamroll their nemesis who sits in a town somewhere not killing high level monsters in a party.

In this case it still applies because the Order needs a cleric of about their level to make a good, exciting fight against the vampire clerics. She needs to be able to stand up to Durkula because it makes a better story.

I think Hilgia is likely about at Darkens level, but I don't think it makes sense to assume nemesis rules apply in universe. The reason is few people see themselves as the antagonists, and Hilgia was out adventuring. So in universe it makes more sense to say Darken must at least be at her level because he's her personal nemesis. Also at this point the reason for nemesis rules out of universe would also say favor Darken since he's currently one of the bad guys.

[oonker]

In my campaign (I was DM) there were instances that we had to know if the attack hit the shield, the armor, the natural armor or the deflection bonus granted by a ring of protection the character had. I don't know if it is 3.5 canon, but we established a priority in armor class, to determine how does the AC happens.

Imagine a character with:
Dex 16 (+3 modifier bonus)
breastplate (+5 armor)
Large Shield (+2 shield)
Barskin (+2 natural armor)
Ring of protection +2 (+2 deflection)

The priority was

Dex -> deflection -> Shield -> Armor -> Natural Armor

So, if the attacker rolled:
- a 12: he would not hit the character, due to the character dodging the attack
- a 14, he WOULD hit the attacker, but some magical force deflected the strike, preventing the damage
- a 16, he correctly targetted the defender, and although some magical force tried to deflect his strike, the attacker managed to strike the defender, who interposed the attack with his shield
- a 18, the attacker did all the above, and his strike managed also to slip by the shield, but the armor absorded the impact
- a 23, the attacker also found a gap in the breastplate, but the blade merely scratched hard skin, not being able to cause or inflict any damage
- a 24 or more, the attacker got you good.

It did not come often to play, but there were times we needed to know precisely how the attack happened.

I would house-rule that Kudzu gets Hilgya's dex bonus, any deflection bonus she might have, and her shield (if she carried one), but not the protection from her armor.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm pretty sure Planetouched can be born to any mortal race, but that may just be Pathfinder talking.

Are there Genasi in 3.5e? Those are a crossbreed between human and an elemental ... 5e has them as part of the elemental evil campaign, but I can't find them in the 3.5 SRD.

[Kardwill]

None of those things in any way change that it is less safe to take Kudzu into battle than it is to say "I'd love to help, but I have a baby, and I would rather not put him in further danger".

Grey Wolf

Well, in this particular case, not fighting IS putting the kid into danger, since a defeated order would mean both H and her kid get to be Hel's brand new toy/slaves, and a cleric of Hylgia's power will be invaluable in this battle.
She doesn't know about the dwarfpocalypse, though (Roy just talked about some random end-of-world threat, but that kind of generic menace is just "another day at the office" for a high-level adventurer), so it doesn't really excuses her lack of common sense. But it's kinda ironic she is actually protecting her child while making an horrendously wrong decision. ^^

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, in this particular case, not fighting IS putting the kid into danger, since a defeated order would mean both H and her kid get to be Hel's brand new toy/slaves, and a cleric of Hylgia's power will be invaluable in this battle.
She doesn't know about the dwarfpocalypse, though (Roy just talked about some random end-of-world threat, but that kind of generic menace is just "another day at the office" for a high-level adventurer), so it doesn't really excuses her lack of common sense. But it's kinda ironic she is actually protecting her child while making an horrendously wrong decision. ^^

Given her attitude towards acting honorably, nothing the Order does or does not do will stop her from practically volunteering to become Hel's chewtoy when her end finally comes. But hey, that's her choice and that's what freedom is all about.

More concerning to me is if she'll neglect to teach Kudzu what happens to dwarven souls if they die without honor.

GW

[Keltest]

Given her attitude towards acting honorably, nothing the Order does or does not do will stop her from practically volunteering to become Hel's chewtoy when her end finally comes. But hey, that's her choice and that's what freedom is all about.

More concerning to me is if she'll neglect to teach Kudzu what happens to dwarven souls if they die without honor.

GW

Assuming she continues to act as she is now, I think it is unlikely that the poor kid will survive long enough for that to become an issue.

[Peelee]

Nope. I only know some rules by video games, but never noticed this rule.

I know the feeling. The first time I played D&D, it only took a few minutes for me to exclaim, "Oh, this works just like KOTOR."

[Kish]

Vampires don't get +8 HD, or +anything HD. ECL is not hit dice and has nothing to do with turning.