OOTS #1107 - The Discussion Thread

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You know, re-reading the last 50 pages or so, maybe Eugene Greenhilt's advice was the solution we're looking for.

Not the entire dwarven race charging dragons... but enough of them charging Kraagor's tomb after the Godsmoot arc is complete.

With every dwarf that dies fighting at Kraagor's tomb, the faster the tomb is cleared... and Hel's potential bounty drops.

Drop the living dwarven population enough so that she won't be the queen of the northern pantheon, and she might even be flipped to the other side... so that she can start anew when there are enough reborn dwarves to end the world with a net gain.

It is a solution, but not really the one we're looking for. There are still enough moving pieces left on the board that they have the chance to have their cake and eat it too (i.e. save the dwarves from Hel without getting them all to commit suicide). Going meta for a moment, this being a PG-13 story, it is quite unlikely that your solution would be the only one with a chance of success. But at this point I would not attempt to predict what the alternative solution will be. Plenty of people seem to believe we may end up witnessing the end of the wager through a different means, for example.

I have to say, the most horrific thing about Eugene's solution is that I could see it work. That if the dwarves were appraised of the situation, they'd do it. That's how screwed up their society has been because of Loki.

Wouldn't that just give Xykon a lot of bearded zombies to clear the area for him ?

It would. It'd still accomplish its objective of denying Hel's ascension to top deity.

Grey Wolf

[Manty5]

I'm sorry, what problem is that meant to solve exactly, and how is it a solution?

2 things.

1. If Kraagor's tomb is strong enough to withstand Xyklon, it's not going to be any easier for our heroes without some serious backup.

2. Hel is doing what she's doing to capture souls. If her scheme won't capture enough souls, she might actually change sides.

2a. If Dwarven society is properly warned of Hel's plans for their souls, they'd probably volunteer to thwart her rather than spend the afterlife as her slave. The Council of Clans is the perfect vehicle to spread the word fast enough, far enough.

It's just a thought about how Eugene could be right and wrong at the same time (Charging dragons just to avoid Hel doesn't have the satisfaction of thwarting a plot to destroy the multiverse, which would be quite a heroic sacrifice).

Finally... it would mean that Durkon brought Death and Destruction to the Dwarven people... as a quest for their salvation.

Let's just say it's a piece of the jigsaw of prophecy and deific meddling that might actually fit, not a claim that it will be the one that actually happens.

[Keltest]

2 things.

1. If Kraagor's tomb is strong enough to withstand Xyklon, it's not going to be any easier for our heroes without some serious backup.

Our heroes don't need to access it at all though. They just need to stop Xykon from doing so. Clearing the tomb themselves is actively counterproductive to that.

2. Hel is doing what she's doing to capture souls. If her scheme won't capture enough souls, she might actually change sides.

2a. If Dwarven society is properly warned of Hel's plans for their souls, they'd probably volunteer to thwart her rather than spend the afterlife as her slave. The Council of Clans is the perfect vehicle to spread the word fast enough, far enough.

It's just a thought about how Eugene could be right and wrong at the same time (Charging dragons just to avoid Hel doesn't have the satisfaction of thwarting a plot to destroy the multiverse, which would be quite a heroic sacrifice).

Change sides to what? She doesn't like her situation to begin with, but she's stuck with it for reasons not disclosed. If that were a thing that could happen, it would have happened a long time ago. And the dwarves already know Hel wants their souls, that's why theyre such an honorable people.

[Jasdoif]

Hel is doing what she's doing to capture souls. If her scheme won't capture enough souls, she might actually change sides.

I don't know....the bet ends with the world, that alone might be enough for Hel to keep pushing for it.

[Manty5]

I don't know....the bet ends with the world, that alone might be enough for Hel to keep pushing for it.

True. We also weren't guaranteed a happy ending (Elan already got his). If the world ends, but Hel doesn't end up in charge because enough souls slipped through her fingers before the plug got pulled, that might be enough for status quo ante for the next world.

EDIT: And after reading the responses, it might make more sense for the dwarves to go after Xyklon's crew than the tombs themselves. Rememer the talk about how even with perfect AC, enough numbers means enough natural 20's to win.

[Fyraltari]

But at this point I would not attempt to predict what the alternative solution will be. Plenty of people seem to believe we may end up witnessing the end of the wager through a different means, for example.

My money is on :
1) The order beats Jerkon and stops Hel's plan for the time being.
2) The order and friends stop Xykon and Redcloak (destroying both phylactery and Crimson mantle) foiling both deities plans for the foreseenable future.
3) Hel goes to the Northern Pantheon:
Okay I didn't get what I wanted but you were really scared so can we all agrees that this situation sucks and end this bet?
Say it.
...
Say iiiiiiiittttt...
AlrightalrightIlostgeeyouhappynowdad
Hey, if we're renegotiating how reality works here, could I get a word too?
4) Obi-Wan Kenobi
5) ???
6) Order : Stickier!
7) Profit

It would. It'd still accomplish its objective of denying Hel's ascension to top deity.

Not convinced that's better than Xykon, but hey who cares.

2 things.

1. If Kraagor's tomb is strong enough to withstand Xyklon, it's not going to be any easier for our heroes without some serious backup.

But they don't need to get through, they don't even want to get through, they want to stop Xykon. The more monsters the merrier.

Edit : It's a plane! It's a bird! No it's a ninja! Wait, what?

2. Hel is doing what she's doing to capture souls. If her scheme won't capture enough souls, she might actually change sides.

If the world ends, the bet ends and she can have Clerics again. Consolation prize is still better than nothing.

Edit : Hey did you see that Ninja? Of course not!

2a. If Dwarven society is properly warned of Hel's plans for their souls, they'd probably volunteer to thwart her rather than spend the afterlife as her slave. The Council of Clans is the perfect vehicle to spread the word fast enough, far enough.

It's just a thought about how Eugene could be right and wrong at the same time (Charging dragons just to avoid Hel doesn't have the satisfaction of thwarting a plot to destroy the multiverse, which would be quite a heroic sacrifice).

No argument there.

[The MunchKING]

2. Hel is doing what she's doing to capture souls. If her scheme won't capture enough souls, she might actually change sides.

No Backsies Rule. Even if she really, really, REALLY wants to save the world, it's kinda too late for her to change her mind.

[Jasdoif]

Even if she really, really, REALLY wants to save the world, it's kinda too late for her to change her mind.

She could change her mind on how/if she dominates the Council to vote, if she really really REALLY wanted to.

[brian 333]

In a world where there is an external metaphysical adjudication that tells you whether you are Good or Evil and said concepts are manifest forces acting on the universe, I find it highly unlikely that the honor-adjudication for dwarves has anything to do with the dwarf's personal beliefs about what constitutes honorable conduct.

Note also that Hilgya is the only dwarven cleric of Loki that we've seen in the entire run of the comic, despite two other encounters with his church.

Hilgya doesn't believe she is constrained by dwarven honor, and there is no evidence that this will have any effect on the disposition of her soul after her death.

If all dwarves are constrained by a deal between Thor and Hel, then Loki will gather zero souls from his dwarven worshippers, all of them being co-opted by Hel for dishonor, regardless of their value to Loki in the afterlife. Loki is foolish, sometimes, but never stupid. And since none of the rest of the Northern pantheon complain, even Surtuur or whatever the Ice Giant King is called, this leads me to believe that they are, indeed, gathering their loyal worshippers regardless of any overt dishonor their beliefs may engender.

This implies that either the rest of the pantheon is unaffected by the deal between Hel and Thor, or that they have clauses which protect their worshippers from being considered dishonored if they remain true to their faith. In the absence of confirmation or refutation by The Giant I lean to the second explanation: that if a dwarf remains true to the beliefs of a god other than Thor, then on death that dwarf belongs to his chosen patron. Hel only gets their rejects.

[Keltest]

If all dwarves are constrained by a deal between Thor and Hel, then Loki will gather zero souls from his dwarven worshippers, all of them being co-opted by Hel for dishonor, regardless of their value to Loki in the afterlife. Loki is foolish, sometimes, but never stupid. And since none of the rest of the Northern pantheon complain, even Surtuur or whatever the Ice Giant King is called, this leads me to believe that they are, indeed, gathering their loyal worshippers regardless of any overt dishonor their beliefs may engender.

This implies that either the rest of the pantheon is unaffected by the deal between Hel and Thor, or that they have clauses which protect their worshippers from being considered dishonored if they remain true to their faith. In the absence of confirmation or refutation by The Giant I lean to the second explanation: that if a dwarf remains true to the beliefs of a god other than Thor, then on death that dwarf belongs to his chosen patron. Hel only gets their rejects.

Thor doesn't get default domain of all dwarves that Hel doesn't claim though, they go to whichever afterlife is appropriate for them.

[Jasdoif]

(although really, I'm struggling to imagine some way to kill yourself via the act of putting on or wearing a helm that wouldn't count as dishonorable)

All I've come up with is: unknowingly putting on a helm of opposite alignment while also wielding a weapon that bestows negative levels while wielded by someone of an opposed alignment.

[Ruck]

Honor neutral activities may exist, but they still land you in Hel. The honorable clause is an exception - after all the wager specifies that all dwarven souls go to Hel, full stop... with a small exception for honorable deaths. Yes, we have been treating honor as a duality, but if it is not, then honor-neutral deaths still land you in Hel, and thus might as well be lumped in with the dishonorable ones for the purpose of this conversation.

If the Dwarven Honor Tradition might be a subset of dwarven traditions, implying that there are some traditions that are non-honorable and thus a dwarf who died while following the requirements of said traditions could still land in Hel. In principle I could see that being the case, I suppose, but then it gets a bit self referential, because I suspect - but can't prove - that following dwarven traditions is, in itself, a honorable action. It certainly is plenty of other honor-driven societies, although of course drawing parallels to other societies is imperfect because they tend to be honorable-for-honor's-sake, which we now know does not apply here, this being a case closer to Pascal's Wager.

Grey Wolf

I doubt there are dishonorable Dwarven traditions, for the reasons you mentioned, but there are probably honor-neutral ones. (I imagine that "drinking a beer for each number in the countdown whenever anyone counts" would be one.)

[b_jonas]

Now, you name a honor-driven society where they knew for a fact that lack of honor landed you in torture (not "believed", not "their religion told them", but verifiably so)

Ok, wait a minute. What do we even know about those afterlives? Why do you even think that for a dwarf, Hel collecting their soul is so much worse than Thor collecting it? I think you're getting a very skewed picture here, because all you hear is the propaganda spread by Durkon. He might talk about boiling oil and nails and Hel's demons torturing you for eternity. I don't think Hel does any of that, nor am I sure that you get some sort of reward in Thor's afterlife. We have seen a little of some of the human afterlives, but not even close to all nine alignments, and I think you might be stereotyping the afterlife of the dwarven gods after those few.

After seeing Thor in #40, I'm not so ready to believe that Thor's afterlife is such a jolly place as the human lawful good heaven that Roy's mother lives in. The dwarven society probably knows more about this than we do, and I think that some dwarves might not want to act honorably, because they're not convinced that Thor collecting their soul is so important to them.

I understand why the humans and dwarves wouldn't like if the gods destroyed the world right now. But so long as someone can reseal the rifts so that the Snarl doesn't get out, and this world can live for twenty thousand more years, I don't see anything wrong with giving Hel all the souls and making her the queen of the pantheon and the strongest god in the next world. So I don't have any evidence either why all dwarves would want to act honorably and give just to keep the current gods happy.

[hamishspence]

Ok, wait a minute. What do we even know about those afterlives? Why do you even think that for a dwarf, Hel collecting their soul is so much worse than Thor collecting it?

mostly because the Giant characterises it that way:

I tried to draw a gaunt, possibly emaciated woman with grey hair, sitting on a throne, where her enslaved dwarven souls struggled under the weight of a giant metal goblet filled with blood when she could easily have her nearby giants carry it (or even just put it on the floor). There's not really supposed to be anything cute about it.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...l#post19828724

Some dwarves live honorable sainted lives of pure humility and service and then choke on a chicken bone and die and are condemned to Hel forever for an eternity of torture and misery. This is a thing that happens.

[ti'esar]

I doubt there are dishonorable Dwarven traditions, for the reasons you mentioned, but there are probably honor-neutral ones. (I imagine that "drinking a beer for each number in the countdown whenever anyone counts" would be one.)

Given that dying of alcohol-related illness counts as 'honorable', I actually wouldn't be sure about that.

[hamishspence]

We have seen a little of some of the human afterlives, but not even close to all nine alignments, and I think you might be stereotyping the afterlife of the dwarven gods after those few.

Aside from "dishonoured dead" afterlife is based on alignment more than deity. Durkon is very LG - his "afterlife plane" would be one of the 3 that qualify as LG, the 'middle one' of which, is Celestia.

Thor might have a "private palace" within Celestia, which has its own rules, though. That, or extremely worshippers get exceptions to standard home plane rules.

In which case, Thor might be NG or even CG (breaking the usual 1 step rule) and Durkon might end up in "Valhalla" (Roy mentioned it as one of the many afterlives that exist in OOTS) rather than Celestia.

As described in Dungeon Master's Guide (Ysgard- an alternate name), it's pretty pleasant. A lot of fighting - but you can't actually get killed - and a lot of feasting and celebration between fights.

But the one thing all afterlives do- is convert you into cookie-cutter clones, over a long period of time - even if they do so in different ways:

The Giant on afterlives

"Spiritual enlightenment" in this case means giving up attachments to the world and accepting that you are no longer part of it. If anything, it is essentially unlearning things; becoming less of an individual with a unique perspective and more of a pure embodiment of alignment. Horace is a little further on that path than Sarah because he's not still engaging in things like random hook-ups, because he understands that nothing matters anymore when you're dead. It is not some sort of eternal learning experience; it's letting go of everything you learned because you don't need it anymore. That is the only change available to dead souls.

I am saying that is specifically what the afterlife does. It makes you into a cookie-cutter clone of everyone of the same alignment. It may take centuries to do so, but all the people at the top of the mountain? Completely indistinguishable from one another. Arguably, that is the purpose of the D&D afterlife—to turn flawed mortal souls into perfect alignment-batteries, through various methodologies. In the Nine Hells, they torture you until you forget everything else. In Celestia, you meditate until you renounce all worldly concerns. In Valhalla, you party until you can't remember your own name. In Limbo, the chaos drives you mad. In Mechanus, you sit in grey cubicle stamping paperwork until you are bored into oblivion. And so on and so forth.

this is the natural cycle of the multiverse. Yes, if you place your own personal autonomy over the natural processes of existence—if you think you are so important that your specific personality must be preserved at all costs, forever—then I suppose you would feel that you should struggle against it, but doing so would be arrogant at the least and dangerously foolhardy at worst. There is no path that will prevent you from eventually being returned to this cycle—other than achieving godhood or total oblivion, e.g. the Snarl—and most of the methods of delaying it will land you in the very worst versions when you get there.

A soul, in addition to the personality traits it had in life, also generates a quantity of Soul Power™. The afterlife processes that soul so that it has less personality and the power is more available to the gods/other beings who rule that plane. This is why gods want souls to go to "their" afterlife; more dead souls equals more available power.

I would add that the process of being born and living a life increases the power available in the soul. So it's less like poker (where everyone starts with a fixed amount of cash and then they compete to trade it around), and more like the stock market (where everyone competes to pick the stocks that will grow the most before being cashed out).

Folks, this is exactly how the afterlife has always worked in D&D; I've maybe tweaked some specifics, but the gist is the same. Souls go to the afterlife and eventually dissolve into the substance of the Outer Plane to which they are remanded, end of story. You don't have to like it or think it's fair, but it's how it works—because like my story, D&D needs the afterlife to not be Awesome Happy Fun Times Forever or else there's no logical underpinning for why the heroes should want to save the world from destruction.

[The MunchKING]

I doubt there are dishonorable Dwarven traditions, for the reasons you mentioned, but there are probably honor-neutral ones. (I imagine that "drinking a beer for each number in the countdown whenever anyone counts" would be one.)

It’s honorable for your liver, fighting so long and hard against you warring on it with such ferocity.

[Kish]

mostly because the Giant characterises it that way:



http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...l#post19828724

We don't even need Word of the Author at this point--how Hel treats her souls has been graphically shown.

[Ruck]

I doubt there are dishonorable Dwarven traditions, for the reasons you mentioned, but there are probably honor-neutral ones. (I imagine that "drinking a beer for each number in the countdown whenever anyone counts" would be one.)

Given that dying of alcohol-related illness counts as 'honorable', I actually wouldn't be sure about that.

It’s honorable for your liver, fighting so long and hard against you warring on it with such ferocity.

All right, ya got me there.

[b_jonas]

Some dwarves live honorable sainted lives of pure humility and service and then choke on a chicken bone and die and are condemned to Hel forever for an eternity of torture and misery. This is a thing that happens. The world is not fair.

Thanks, that is clear enough proof, and it's new to me.

Kish: that doesn't really convince me. That might show just a few specific souls chosen as her personal servants. I don't think Hel has so much furniture that all the dwarf souls she's collected are cleaning Hel's home in most of their time. #486, in contrast, seems more clear about how the mountain is "the true afterlife for the Lawful Good types".

[Jasdoif]

(I imagine that "drinking a beer for each number in the countdown whenever anyone counts" would be one.)

....

All right, ya got me there.

So if a building on fire suddenly collapses while someone is counting how many people have made it out so far...would that mean any dwarves killed by rubble falling on them outside, where they were drinking beer in accordance with the tradition instead of helping people get out, don't have to worry about going to Hel because they died with honor by following the tradition?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Maybe. Better question is 'Will Thor try to rules lawyer that they were fighting the fire by keeping a count of rescuees'?

[Lord Joeltion]

So if a building on fire suddenly collapses while someone is counting how many people have made it out so far...would that mean any dwarves killed by rubble falling on them outside, where they were drinking beer in accordance with the tradition instead of helping people get out, don't have to worry about going to Hel because they died with honor by following the tradition?

They were obviously filling their bladders with cold beer in order to firefight with pee!

[GravityEmblem]

Ok, so, I'm pretty sure someone has already mentioned this, but that's Jenny playing poker in the last panel. That would make this particular cleric of Loki from Greysky City, which is why Haley has seen enough of it to advise against it.
I am, very likely, the last person to realize this.

[Manty5]

....
So if a building on fire suddenly collapses while someone is counting how many people have made it out so far...would that mean any dwarves killed by rubble falling on them outside, where they were drinking beer in accordance with the tradition instead of helping people get out, don't have to worry about going to Hel because they died with honor by following the tradition?

1. It typically isn't good for an entire crowd of bystanders to go entering a house that's on fire, especially since part of your scenario is that the building collapses.

2. What country do you live in that doesn't have fire drills? Counting people that get out is PART of handling a fire, although our culture typically uses pen and paper instead of ale to do so.

[Jasdoif]

It typically isn't good for an entire crowd of bystanders to go entering a house that's on fire, especially since part of your scenario is that the building collapses.

This seems like a practical reason for bystanders to not be drinking beer while close enough to a burning building for the building to collapse on top of them, solely because someone else is counting.

[The MunchKING]

This seems like a practical reason for bystanders to not be drinking beer while close enough to a burning building for the building to collapse on top of them, solely because someone else is counting.

It's an honor thing. You want practical go bug a gnome or something.

[8BitNinja]

It's an honor thing. You want practical go bug a gnome or something.

But gnomes don't have as cool beards as dwarves.

[Keltest]

But gnomes don't have as cool beards as dwarves.

They do have better hats though.

[Dovetail]

I'm not sure about this whole "die with honor" thing, but if dwarves that die with honor/ in combat just go to the plane that matches their alignment (with no alignment specified, not even LG) it could theoretically be possible for a Chaotic Evil dwarf to "die with honor," avoid Hel and then go to the plane matching his alignment. So if evil people can die with honor why not somebody who's committed adultery a few times? They only need to die in combat. If the dwarf Redaxe had died in the middle of his assassination attempt on the "King of Nowhere" he presumably would have died with "honor" despite the fact that there aren't many things more dishonorable than, say, committing murder.

Edit: Wow, I'm a pixie in the playground? I haven't posted here in four years.