Hilgya: a redemption arc?

[Lord Joeltion]

Of course, if you choose to ignore all what is said explicitly that proves your theory wrong, then nothing explicitly is said which can prove that your theory is wrong.
It works quite well.
As if I choose to ignore all this mess made just to avoid to admit that Durkon wasn't worried for his own soul, if not in some theory coming out from absolutely nowhere and without any base, and that you keep to insist on without bringing any solid evidence or reference about it, then this won't kill my brain anymore.

So let's do that.

Or you know, instead of challenging the core of my argument, you can choose the specific part that was solely there to demonstrate that your own interpretation was narrower than that of the author's*; not to make a stand about my point of view.

*Who repeatedly said that dying in battle isn't the point. Dying believing you are honorable isn't the point either. The whole point of The Wager and having a Race that follows a very strict Honor Code is because it naturally benefits those who want Hel to lose the bet. Because the longer you keep being an honorable person, high chances are you die because you are honorable. That's the whole point of the Wager. If you don't die because of your honor code, then you go to Hel. The author said us so much on several occasions.

I'm not sure if that is supposed to contradict what I wrote. I meant that Durkon's personnal issues regarding his exile explains why he reacted that strongly to Hilgya's story. I mean take a look at his childhood flashbacksthat is not nearly as grimm an education as he implied there.

I thought you were referring to something else with "personal issues". My bad. I concede you it's possible, but I would bet for his sense of honor.

If there is evidence in the comic that "knowing that what you were doing was wrong" is irrelevant for the purpose of passing judgement on your actions, I'd appreciate if you could link to it because I missed it. Grey Wolf stated that (paraphrased) "that's just how honor works" to which I replied that there is no single universal understanding of honor therefore one can not just assume it works like that for Dwarves.

I sincerely don't understand what you ask me to link you for. In any case, I won't because I suck at the task. Most of the relevant links are on the Comic Page discussion anyway. What Grey Wolf said is a direct interpretation of the comic and Rich's own posts. What I meant is that while Honor can be philosophically tricky; Rich offered most of the relevant points of the Dwarven way and why they follow such a strict code.

[Fyraltari]

I sincerely don't understand what you ask me to link you for. In any case, I won't because I suck at the task. Most of the relevant links are on the Comic Page discussion anyway. What Grey Wolf said is a direct interpretation of the comic and Rich's own posts. What I meant is that while Honor can be philosophically tricky; Rich offered most of the relevant points of the Dwarven way and why they follow such a strict code.

I really don't know what post or strip states or implies that whether or not Dwarves know that their actions are (dis)honorable do not affect the fate of their souls.

[KorvinStarmast]

Hilgya: a redemption arc?
Having just read through the first half of Ain't No Cure for the Paladin Blues, I noticed the care that Rich took to set up "we broke Haley' which plunged us into Haley's major character development arc.

The subject of redemption for Hilgya isn't the topic of book six. The topic seems to be Durkon's major character development arc. Hilgya doesn't need redemption any more than Nale did when he provided the stimulus, the 'shock to the system' as a catalyst to Haley coming through her inner struggle. Nale set the stage for that with his seduction as Elan gambit.

Hilgya is here as a catalyst to trigger Durkon coming out from within that difficult inner struggle: in this case, with the Vampire possessing his body/corpse. That she's from the linear guild and her catalyst is related to a previous seduction seems and eerie parallel to Haley's breaking free from her inner bonds. Durkon will break free from his inner bondage to Durkula due to something Hilgya does while acting as catalyst.

Hilgya doesn't need redemption, though if she got a taste of it that's fine too. Collateral happy ending, as it were.

(FWIW, as I was pondering the term to use my mind drifted to Robin Hobb's Farseer novels, and how Fitz was called the Catalyst ... so that's why I used that term)

[Lord Joeltion]

I really don't know what post or strip states or implies that whether or not Dwarves know that their actions are (dis)honorable do not affect the fate of their souls.

Do you mean that what the Dwarf believes at the moment of his death (like "I'm confident that I am dying honourably") is relevant? Then no, it isn't. It's the gods the ones who judge/argue/rules-lawyer whether his death was worthy enough or not. Mainly, Hel and whoever is contesting her rightful claim (it's fair to assume it's not just Thor the one who intercedes for his followers, and other deities do the same with their Dwarven flock). Remember that Hel gets every single Dwarven soul by default, except when another deity can claim it for their respective plane.

In any case, that's the importance of having a very strict tradition-based society. You can't really trust the judgement of people/priests in their confidence that their actions are honourable or not; specially when that assessment has literally no bearing in the divine conclusion. A tradition that specifies a lot of what to do/what not to do is very handy. You can make a parallel with Jewish traditions. They are prohibited to eat certain "impure" animals by tradition (or religion, whatever). It's something that becomes super-relevant when you are a society with problems to settle in a specific place while also struggling to survive in the desert. I reckon Dwarven tradition includes a lot of inane knowledge (like most traditions), but the whole reason they have it is because it really increases the chances to save your soul. Sure, it's possible there are other ways to avoid Hel that most dwarfs aren't truly aware; but thinking that their belief or well judgement is what it's saving them would be a non-sequitur. It's up to the gods.

Spoiler: Edit

Show

This is a link from the Comic Page where Rick mentions specifically how honourable dwarfs can still die and be sent to Hel unfairly, because of bad luck. Their belief or sense of judgement takes no place. It's mostly sticking to the rules and avoid bad luck than anything else
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...l#post19828724

[Fyraltari]

Do you mean that what the Dwarf believes at the moment of his death (like "I'm confident that I am dying honourably") is relevant?

No I mean the example that Grey Wolf suggested : a Dwarf that is accomplice to theft because he was tricked into believing he was recovering stolen property and giving it back to its owner or any other case of a dwarf doing something dishonorable while thinking he is doing something else that is honorable.

Remember that Hel gets every single Dwarven soul by default, except when another deity can claim it for their respective plane.

Nitpick: godless dwarves who die with honor go to their godless regular aligment-based afterlife. My guess is that Thor argues for them because he is directly responsible for their predicament and is Good (however lawful or chaotic). That's just a headcannon though.

[Lord Joeltion]

No I mean the example that Grey Wolf suggested : a Dwarf that is accomplice to theft because he was tricked into believing he was recovering stolen property and giving it back to its owner or any other case of a dwarf doing something dishonorable while thinking he is doing something else that is honorable.

Oh... I'm not sure to give an answer. I suppose he was speaking about the fact that there is no workaround or loophole that the soul can allege in its defence (because his perspective doesn't count). I don't think the Giant referred to that point specifically; but he did mentioned there was no way to circumvent the rules or to give a Relativistic Morality take. Either the dwarf died honourably or not. Although I don't think Thor has enough ranks in Profession (lawyer) to wiggle that soul out of Hel's grasp.

Nitpick: godless dwarves who die with honor go to their godless regular aligment-based afterlife. My guess is that Thor argues for them because he is directly responsible for their predicament and is Good (however lawful or chaotic). That's just a headcannon though.

I suppose they* can send an archon or something, just like the personal one who took care of Roy's soul when he arrived to Celestia's Gates.

*Who would be "they" anyway? Who handles the bureaucracy of non-theistic matters/assets?