So apparently JC says you can lose HP on level up now...

[Naanomi]

Choosing to greviously dump CON is one of the few consistent areas where 5e is less forgiving; ‘bad’ stat dumping in general in fact

[Unoriginal]

Would it be acceptable to paraphrase this as, "5ed is especially unforgiving of lack of optimization?"

No, it is not acceptable.

Not having a negative CON modifier is not optimizing. And the game isn't punishing you even if you have 8 CON (the minimum unless rolled stats), you're just fragile, as you should when you have 8 CON.

The only way to have horribly low HPs is to roll for stats, and then roll your HD at each level.

5e is not unforgiving of lack of optimization. You have to deliberately try to make your character weak to manage it.

At worse, you can say that 5e is unforgiving when you keep gambling instead of taking care of your health.


Why ask that question?

[Arkhios]

Not having a negative CON modifier is not optimizing. And the game isn't punishing you even if you have 8 CON (the minimum unless rolled stats), you're just fragile, as you should when you have 8 CON.
--
At worse, you can say that 5e is unforgiving when you keep gambling instead of taking care of your health.

Unrelated to the discussion, but for some reason (maybe I'm just crazy) that part sprung up an idea of making a variant human wizard with the standard 27 point buy.

Str 15, Dex 14, Con 8, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 8

+1 Str, +1 Int, Tough for extra feat.

Why high Strength? I dunno, it felt funny enough so I did it.

With Tough, this character would be just as durable as any wizard with rather common Con 12, only that his Constitution saves are a little worse than usual.

Make it even funnier: Start as a barbarian, use a medium armor, have proficiency in those Con saves, which are now a bit less bad for you. Have a whopping 13 hit points to start with (still more than a fairly common fighter would have). Also, a decent durability, for a wizard (once you take wizard levels, that is). Come to think of it, this would make some sense as a War Wizard.

Note, that Arcane Deflection doesn't require you to cast spells, and it's not a spell so you can use it even while raging! While not raging, you blast armies to cinder!

[opaopajr]

This really feels like a level 1 challenge in Final Fantasy Tactics or something.

If you level ... YOU DIE!

I wonder if anyone has ever done that: refuse to level up and stay at some low level because RP.

It's only the coolest new 5e mini-game I can think of! "Death by Leveling Up!" Challenge. Take a 3 in CON (-4 mod) and roll everything else. Roll your Hit Die during leveling up. Level up until you die. Death by other means is failure.

Easiest classes would be the HD d6 classes.

Or you could play an alternate survivalist mini-game, "Two HP Weenie Marathon." Choose a d6 class, take CON 3, and from then on only take the fixed HD average. (Fixed HD average is half plus one, so d6 classes are 4 HP. CON 3 is -4 mod, which washes away HP gains.) Level your 2 HP PC as far as they can in actual play. Shoot for the perfect score of Lvl 20!

[Tanarii]

Str 15, Dex 14, Con 8, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 8

+1 Str, +1 Int, Tough for extra feat.

Why high Strength? I dunno, it felt funny enough so I did it.

Because you're planning on taking Weapon Master (Longsword, Greatsword, Glaive, Longbow) at level 4, to go with your Booming Blade / Greenflame blade?

Edit: hopefully your team has a good Cleric ...

[Arkhios]

Because you're planning on taking Weapon Master (Longsword, Greatsword, Glaive, Longbow) at level 4, to go with your Booming Blade / Greenflame blade?

Edit: hopefully your team has a good Cleric ...

Honestly? Didn't think that far, but sure, why the heck not! :D

[jas61292]

Yes jas. You are unique and special and snowflake.

Yay! I like being special.

But in all seriousness, while I do find the whole loss of HP thing weird, I really don't think it is a big deal. So few guys will have that even come up. So it shouldn't matter.

[Arkhios]

But in all seriousness, while I do find the whole loss of HP thing weird, I really don't think it is a big deal. So few guys will have that even come up. So it shouldn't matter.

Honestly, it's not. People playing games these days seem to have cradled themselves into some self-comforting dream in which everything always works fantastic for them, and as soon as someone points out something severely hindering, all hell breaks loose as they start defending their comfort zones with bare teeth!

To me, negative ability modifiers are just as much tools and flavorful features to work with as any other aspects of this game (and any other games, really). Every good character must have flaws! A wizard with Con 8 can be just as entertaining to play as a half-orc barbarian with greataxe and Great Weapon Master.

[krugaan]

Honestly, it's not. People playing games these days seem to have cradled themselves into some self-comforting dream in which everything always works fantastic for them, and as soon as someone points out something severely hindering, all hell breaks loose as they start defending their comfort zones with bare teeth!

To me, negative ability modifiers are just as much tools and flavorful features to work with as any other aspects of this game (and any other games, really). Every good character must have flaws! A wizard with Con 8 can be just as entertaining to play as a half-orc barbarian with greataxe and Great Weapon Master.

Damn whippersnappers with their "theater of the mind" and "geek chic!" Girls woudn't even ask us to do their math homework, that how much we suffered for our craft!

Back in my day, we used to have to walk to the library, in the rain, sleet, and snow, uphill both ways! And then, we'd spend the next 5 hours in one grueling battle, gain our hard earned 3 XP points, and then trudge back home and do it all again the next day for the next 75 years just to get to level two!!!

Now you can just jump on this newfangled internet and find groups to play with in like 5 minutes! Just finding people to play with used to be a heroic undertaking worthy of feast and song!

AND GET OFF MY DAMN LAWN!

[mgshamster]

I've got a frenzy barbarian with 5 wisdom and I always roll HP for him. Also rolled stats for him.

I've also got a beast master ranger with an 8 con. Used standard array.

These are things I'm told one should never do, and yet my PCs do just fine.

[Arkhios]

Damn whippersnappers with their "theater of the mind" and "geek chic!" Girls woudn't even ask us to do their math homework, that how much we suffered for our craft!

Back in my day, we used to have to walk to the library, in the rain, sleet, and snow, uphill both ways! And then, we'd spend the next 5 hours in one grueling battle, gain our hard earned 3 XP points, and then trudge back home and do it all again the next day for the next 75 years just to get to level two!!!

Now you can just jump on this newfangled internet and find groups to play with in like 5 minutes! Just finding people to play with used to be a heroic undertaking worthy of feast and song!

AND GET OFF MY DAMN LAWN!

Preach it!

Seriously though. Don't forget the fun. It's just a game. Don't be too serious about it lest you risk a burn-out.

[Knaight]

Would it be acceptable to paraphrase this as, "5ed is especially unforgiving of lack of optimization?"

Only if the things it's being compared to are better in that regard - "especially" is explicitly a comparative term.

They aren't.

[BoringInfoGuy]

I played a 3.5 paladin with a 10 Con.

We rolled 4d6, drop the lowest, place as chosen.

Well, I rolled great stats, for a Wizard or other SAD character. 18 on one end, the rest mediocre with an 8 on the low end. Problem is, I wanted to play a paladin, since this was my first game running under a DM that had similar ideas on how a paladin could behave without falling.

Realizing that a DM who won’t go out of his way to think up ways to screw a pally was worth more than optimization, I had some tough choices. I could put the high stats into being a decent front line combatant and have almost non existent bonuses to the paladin mechanics. But why bother being a paladin if I was going to build him as a sub par fighter with barely there paladin abilities?

So, I went with an extremely sub par fighter with the Paladin abilities being emphasized. 18 in Cha for Smite Evil, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, and Turn Undead, plus the diplomacy skill. 14 in Wisdom for full Paladin Spellcasting.

But I was stuck on where to put a 10. Dex, the only pally dump stat was holding the 8. So where to put it? Str? I needed enough carry capacity for the heavy armor I was going to get ASAP, and I wanted some melee utility. Int? All that was left was Int or Con.

Could’ve dropped Int, but I had skills I wanted. Con was really just two things. HP and Fortitude saving throws. Paladins has good Fort saves, and Divine Grace adds your con bonus for all saves. So, as long as I rolled well for HP, I should’ve been fine.

Hit level 2. Rolled a 1 for HP

Hit level 3. Rolled a 1 again.

Turned out well though. Having low HP really shaped and developed his personality.

[Unoriginal]

I played a 3.5 paladin with a 10 Con.

We rolled 4d6, drop the lowest, place as chosen.

Well, I rolled great stats, for a Wizard or other SAD character. 18 on one end, the rest mediocre with an 8 on the low end. Problem is, I wanted to play a paladin, since this was my first game running under a DM that had similar ideas on how a paladin could behave without falling.

Realizing that a DM who won’t go out of his way to think up ways to screw a pally was worth more than optimization, I had some tough choices. I could put the high stats into being a decent front line combatant and have almost non existent bonuses to the paladin mechanics. But why bother being a paladin if I was going to build him as a sub par fighter with barely there paladin abilities?

So, I went with an extremely sub par fighter with the Paladin abilities being emphasized. 18 in Cha for Smite Evil, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, and Turn Undead, plus the diplomacy skill. 14 in Wisdom for full Paladin Spellcasting.

But I was stuck on where to put a 10. Dex, the only pally dump stat was holding the 8. So where to put it? Str? I needed enough carry capacity for the heavy armor I was going to get ASAP, and I wanted some melee utility. Int? All that was left was Int or Con.

Could’ve dropped Int, but I had skills I wanted. Con was really just two things. HP and Fortitude saving throws. Paladins has good Fort saves, and Divine Grace adds your con bonus for all saves. So, as long as I rolled well for HP, I should’ve been fine.

Hit level 2. Rolled a 1 for HP

Hit level 3. Rolled a 1 again.

Turned out well though. Having low HP really shaped and developed his personality.

Now I'm picturing a very old guy who spent his life as a public speaker and who became a Paladin at the age others would enjoy retirement.

[Spacehamster]

How can you loose hp leveling up 8 being minimum CON gives -1 and when you roll a 1 that just leaves your hp without any positive or negative change?

[Unoriginal]

How can you loose hp leveling up 8 being minimum CON gives -1 and when you roll a 1 that just leaves your hp without any positive or negative change?

8 is the minimum for standard array and point buy. If you roll, the minimum is technically 3.

[LeonBH]

8 is the minimum for standard array and point buy. If you roll, the minimum is technically 3.

Technically, the lowest score is 1 post-modifier if you're playing an Orc (Volo's) and placed that 3 in Intelligence.

But yes, 3 is the minimum for Con.

[Vaz]

Honestly, it's not. People playing games these days seem to have cradled themselves into some self-comforting dream in which everything always works fantastic for them, and as soon as someone points out something severely hindering, all hell breaks loose as they start defending their comfort zones with bare teeth!

To me, negative ability modifiers are just as much tools and flavorful features to work with as any other aspects of this game (and any other games, really). Every good character must have flaws! A wizard with Con 8 can be just as entertaining to play as a half-orc barbarian with greataxe and Great Weapon Master.

Until it dies. And you no longer get to play with.

[Spacehamster]

Technically, the lowest score is 1 post-modifier if you're playing an Orc (Volo's) and placed that 3 in Intelligence.

But yes, 3 is the minimum for Con.

Hmmm how would you role play a 1 INT orc?! 😂 can’t talk probably and wonder if he could understand spoken language or just had to be the party pet or smthn?! :D

[Arkhios]

Until it dies. And you no longer get to play with.

Who. Cares!? :DDDDD Dying is part of the game. Sheesh!

Why are you so incredibly negative about every single thing? Did you forget your meds?

[Unoriginal]

Who. Cares!? :DDDDD Dying is part of the game. Sheesh!

Why are you so incredibly negative about every single thing? Did you forget your meds?

Vaz is a self-proclaimed thread derailer.


That being said, it's true dying can be frustrating. But if you're the kind who's frustrated by death, you're not going to make a deliberately fragile character. Unless if you're doing it on purpose to be contrarian or if you think the DM will never kill you.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Given how attack power and touch ac scaled, I personally would habe thought it strange.

I suppose it depends on the level of the game. At level 1, 1 point of AC is worth significantly more than 1 point of hp.

[Arkhios]

Hmmm how would you role play a 1 INT orc?! 😂 can’t talk probably and wonder if he could understand spoken language or just had to be the party pet or smthn?! :D

In 3rd edition you actually had to make a Handle Animal check to direct any humanoid with intelligence 2 or lower to do anything (it was RAW!)

[Naanomi]

Hmmm how would you role play a 1 INT orc?! 😂 can’t talk probably and wonder if he could understand spoken language or just had to be the party pet or smthn?! :D

If I map 3d6 Intelligence to an extrapolated Stanford-Binet IQ chart (which is a bad idea but gives us some talking points); INT 1 is about IQ 16... virtually no cognitive engagement, below 20 and learning is generally considered impossible due to massive deficits in processing and memory; almost always accompanied with significant motor impairments and/or physical deformities

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Historically, 3 Int was the minimum, and a character that had less wasn't playable.

[BoringInfoGuy]

Now I'm picturing a very old guy who spent his life as a public speaker and who became a Paladin at the age others would enjoy retirement.

(Man a La Mancha now playing in my ear)

A missed opportunity. I went with a young man who was strong in spirit, but weak of the flesh.

Of course, I had been hoping for better HP roles. Rolling two ones and having 12 HP at 3rd level was not something I planned.

[Xetheral]

Hmmm how would you role play a 1 INT orc?! 😂 can’t talk probably and wonder if he could understand spoken language or just had to be the party pet or smthn?! :D

Play as a Wizard for the irony. Cast Find Familiar. Do whatever the familiar tells you to do. (As necessary, consult the sidebar in the Arms and Equipment guide for 3.0 entitled: "What to do if your mount is smarter than you are.")

[opaopajr]

Heh, Mongo the Orcish Wizard. Not even the orcs pay attention to him. Good usage of a random spellcasting function, though. "No Mongo! We said cast Sleep!"

I'd probably rule it as partial catatonia, however. I mean, you're a point away from a slime, so not good. Or maybe you can speak with the slimes...

(Edit: Y'know, I always wanted to play a mentally-elevated Gelatinous Cube as a paladin. This might just qualify if I reskin it...)

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Play as a Wizard for the irony. Cast Find Familiar. Do whatever the familiar tells you to do. (As necessary, consult the sidebar in the Arms and Equipment guide for 3.0 entitled: "What to do if your mount is smarter than you are.")

Would have to be a Sorcerer, or you could have your Int raised magically.

[Arkhios]

Would have to be a Sorcerer, or you could have your Int raised magically.

Well... technically low Int doesn't stop you from being a wizard and casting spells (you can always have a minimum of one spell prepared). Your Spellcasting DC would obviously suffer, but you could choose spells that care about neither :)