The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

[Blackhawk748]

Isnt it? What was Snoke doing at Luke's academy? It didnt sound like Snoke was another student... but he was whispering in several apprentices ears...

If we are talking an exar kun style malevelant spirit, he must have got a body somehow, but I can believe that as a sith alchemy thing.

No, Snoke is not a spirit. Snoke is a flesh and blood being that was apparently poking Ben's brain. If he actually is a spirit possessed being that would be different and Luke should have said something. Hell it would have made him sitting on that island make mroe sense.

Rey "Why did you leave"
Luke "I had to find out why i almost did that. Turns out Snoke is actually an ancient Sith spirit possessing a body and he manipulated me through my emotional connection to Ben. I can't fix the mess i caused as all i will do is make Ben more angry, so i left a trail of clues so someone could find me and i could train them to fix this"

Yes its not Oscar winning dialogue but it stops making Luke a mopey old guy.

I think the primary purpose of this post is to insult American's taste in art.

Actually no, Hitler was surprisingly good.

Spoiler: This is from 1912

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America was on a people and landscapes kick about that time, so he would have fit right in.

[Dr.Samurai]

Luke did occasionally give in to fear and anger in the original trilogy. In Empire when he goes into the cave he strikes out at the illusion of Vader in fear and finds himself in the mask, and in Jedi when he's fighting Vader he clearly gives in to anger which gives him the strength to win and dealing the same wound Vader did to him brings him out of it.

And that's what happened between him and Kylo. He gave in to fear for an instant, then it passed and he resisted the dark again, but this time the damage was really done.

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I understand that. I am in no way suggesting that Luke should be perfect. What I'm saying is that this action (considering killing his nephew) is unreasonable for the character of Luke (and for many other people in general). Sleeping child Ben Solo is not Vader in a cave or Vader in the Emperor's throne room. If Luke gets angry arguing with Ben, or trying to make him understand the perils of the dark side and of Snoke, that's fine. I wouldn't argue "Luke should never be angry or scared!!".

I'm saying that having Luke consider killing his nephew, however briefly, having him exile himself and give up, having him not train Rey and never leave his island, it's all an awful end to the character, a departure from the character, not explained well (if at all), and a major disappointment to many of the fans, who were already disappointed when he only appeared in TFA for ten seconds. It's beyond the pale. It's too much in the opposite direction of his character.

Now for my part, I don't need to see Luke. I would prefer if we walk away from the Skywalker family. But if you're going to bring him in, do it right. Do the character justice. Use the *actual* character.

I'm not one of these people but, do you have any idea how many people wanted to see Jedi Master Luke Skywalker returning the fight to the Dark Siders, now with decades of experience and wisdom and growth under his belt? To see Luke Skywalker as a master of the force? Or even as a hero again, coming in to save someone just in the nick of time? And it's suggested that these fans are actually fanboys and unreasonable for being disappointed. That the hero of the original trilogy is now a defeated curmudgeon that created the villain when he considered killing him for a second. Just like the hero Han Solo abandoned his wife in her time of need.

I'm just surprised at the number of people that think killing Ben Solo is a reasonable reaction for Luke Skywalker to have and then feel bad about. The problem is not a fan hangup or hero worship. The problem is abandoning character for the sake of plot. People sat around a room and thought:

"How can we make Kylo's origins tragic, and lay it at Luke's feet?"
"What if we have Luke consider killing Ben briefly with his lightsaber, because Ben has been seduced by Snoke, and Ben sees it and thinks Luke is going to kill him and defends himself."
"Hmm... would Luke do that?"
"Yeah, why not? Ben is seduced by Snoke. He's going evil and he's VERY powerful, the grandson of Anakin. So something has to be done. Maybe he thinks he has to kill him."

The problem is that they're thinking about it as writers, and not through the perspective of the characters they're actually writing about.

But again, it seems enough people hear think that considering Ben's murder, briefly, and not following through is perfectly reasonable as a "mistake" or "character flaw" for Luke. So maybe I'm nuts.

It was Adam Driver. Luke's comment was about the look in Ben's eyes revealing him to just be a scared little boy, as opposed to the dark evil Luke was afraid that he had already become, not that Luke was about to pull an Anakin on a "youngling."

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Lol, that might make more sense. But I'll use this to better illustrate where I'm coming from: I didn't like the scene where Anaking draws the lightsaber on the younglings either. I thought it was incredibly drastic and too far to the dark side for having been just christened Darth Vader. He literally went from "Palpatine is Sidious, we have to arrest him." to "What do I need to do dark master? Oh, kill those kids? No problem." That scene happened and I was like "What. the. literal. ****. just happened??"

I didn't feel there was adequate build up for Anakin to suddenly start slaughtering children. And as I said originally in this thread, the Luke thing would be easier to swallow if a better explanation was given to why he thought killing Ben was necessary. I know a handful of you are going to pop in and give me your explanations, but I don't think the movie did a well enough job explaining it. We don't know how Snoke was seducing Ben or how it affected Ben. We don't know anything about what happened at the temple.

Yeah, so the quote I’m referencing was after TFA which basically said, ‘we don’t have the entire timeline plotted yet, but the destruction of Luke’s academy was definitely less than 14 years ago.’

So it could be anywhere from 13 years and 364 days ago to the day before TFA.

With the flashback I don’t think Ben looks young enough to portray anyone younger than their 20s and definitely not a 15 year old.

Until we get some author clarification let’s split the difference and say 18.

Does this change your mind on the situation here?

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Wookiepedia says it happens sometime after 28aby, so he could be as young as 13. But let's just say 18. It certainly changes things a little because an 18 year old is considered a man, basically. Though I feel like they refer to Ben as a boy when they talk about him being seduced.

It's not as cruel, I guess, to kill an 18 year old in cold blood as opposed to a 10 year old. But no, I don't think in the end it changes the situation all that much for me. I don't think it's in his character to kill someone like that, and I don't think he'd consider it for the reasons given. Unless we find out Ben was hurting people, or seducing the others, but even then, I don't think Luke's answer would be to kill him. I think it's a big misstep in the portrayal of the character.

He launched a desperate, costly attack against the Dreadnought because in his mind that's how you win this sort of thing. Sure, the First Order probably hates losing that Dreadnought, but taking it out didn't save the rebellion.

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My impression was that they were going to evacuate as many people as they could off the planet, and to facilitate this, Poe was going to stall the Dreadnought until he could get inside its minimum fire range and start taking out its cannons so that the bombers can come in. This was all part of the plan that he went out to execute.

But, the people were evacuated ahead of schedule, and they no longer needed to assault the Dreadnought, so Leia ordered him to pull back. And Poe proceeded with the plan because the Dreadnoughts are "fleet-killers" and they were already lined up to assault it.

Again, I can kind of see this going against Poe, because the idea is that they were going to enact the plan in order to evacuate the people, but it's still a crazy plan. They were just going to do it because they had to. But the movie doesn't execute this very well in my opinion. It was really just chance that the bombers rammed each other and exploded. The scene could have easily been written with Poe pulling off a flawless victory. You've got to do more to drive point the home that Poe is reckless and a danger to his allies. You can't make Holdo petty and withholding, and you can't just have all the bombers explode from a single hit. It undermines what you're trying to show and I have a hard time really thinking that Poe is that bad.

...and the blame rests on the character, and the writers, for what happened after. He didn't save anyone by running away. Two of his best friends died looking for him and he didn't care. Ben needed to be stopped and he didn't care. Even when R2 directly threw it in his face about how he was the one who answered these calls before he doesn't care except in a half assed way where he still doesn't really do much until the very end after about three hundred and fifty more people had already been killed.

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QFT. The scene with R2 was actually something in the movie that I really liked, because it was real. It was like "remember? do you remember what happened? who you are? what you did?" I was excited because I was thinking ok, this is what changes Luke around. This was a fantastic use of a callback. Perfect. But, it didn't really go anywhere. That can be said of just about everything in this movie, or this movie itself. It didn't really go anywhere.

Also, I think Kenobi thought that Vader was beyond redemption.

Indeed. Someone made a comment earlier that Luke has seen the worst in Vader, and likened him to a Holocaust survivor. I think that's got it wrong. Kenobi has seen the worst of Vader. Namely, Vader killing children, Vader killing his wife, Vader hunting down his former brothers and sisters in the Force and exterminating them. Luke has only heard stories and has actually faced Vader himself, but he doesn't know the worst of what Vader can do. He didn't even know who Vader was before Kenobi mentioned him.

Luke should have tried harder, not lit up his saber. I can't see the same guy that thinks "Space Hitler can be saved" also thinking, even for a moment, "I should kill this child to stop a great evil."

Agreed. It doesn't make sense.

No, Snoke is not a spirit. Snoke is a flesh and blood being that was apparently poking Ben's brain. If he actually is a spirit possessed being that would be different and Luke should have said something. Hell it would have made him sitting on that island make mroe sense.

Rey "Why did you leave"
Luke "I had to find out why i almost did that. Turns out Snoke is actually an ancient Sith spirit possessing a body and he manipulated me through my emotional connection to Ben. I can't fix the mess i caused as all i will do is make Ben more angry, so i left a trail of clues so someone could find me and i could train them to fix this"

Yes its not Oscar winning dialogue but it stops making Luke a mopey old guy.

Miles ahead of what we got dude.

[Reddish Mage]

I'm saying that having Luke consider killing his nephew, however briefly, having him exile himself and give up, having him not train Rey and never leave his island, it's all an awful end to the character, a departure from the character, not explained well (if at all), and a major disappointment to many of the fans, who were already disappointed when he only appeared in TFA for ten seconds. It's beyond the pale. It's too much in the opposite direction of his character.

I'm just surprised at the number of people that think killing Ben Solo is a reasonable reaction for Luke Skywalker to have and then feel bad about. The problem is not a fan hangup or hero worship. The problem is abandoning character for the sake of plot.

Entirely. The Luke from Return of the Jedi would never take the easy way of simply killing a potential problem, he wouldn't even think about it.

The Luke of The Last Jedi has abandoned everything we know about Luke, he is a broken old man burdened with regret, angry at himself, and externalizing that anger upon the Jedi order.

This change is an abrupt turn in a movie that thrives on how many 180's it can manage.

I don't think its simply a matter of the change in character. The change in character is something never adequately justified, supposedly occurring from that one moment with Ben Solo after Luke did something that Luke, the kind-hearted Luke from the OT that was willing to let himself be captured by Vader because he was convinced he could turn him, would never do.

Like many of the other changes, the movie does not do enough to build up to or mark the change as something especially impactful, or prepare something else to follow up.

Actually, to tell the truth, the drastic character change in Luke is probably one of the better done changes. Here they at least make a token effort to dwell on it, explain the impact, and give Luke a transformation story (it involves burning bibles to get there) where he undergoes a literal metamorphosis corresponding to his getting his mojo back.

The problem is made much worse in that this was done in a movie that revels in taking everything beloved of Star Wars or expected from a Star Wars movie and running it through the shredder. In between it gives us a surfeit of scenes that make about as much sense as half-frozen Leia waking up and flying to save herself from the vacuum of space.

Luke's character wasn't altered arbitrarily for the plot, he was altered purposely to further of a plot that was propelled by countlessly shocking, destroying, upsetting, and moving right on past.

[Scowling Dragon]

Indeed. Someone made a comment earlier that Luke has seen the worst in Vader, and likened him to a Holocaust survivor. I think that's got it wrong. Kenobi has seen the worst of Vader.

Whilst not baby killing if somebody revealed to me to be my father insisted I join the mafia buisness and shot me in the chest when I didn't comply I would see that person as an utter monster.

Luke never saw Vader commit Genocide, but he saw him Kill Ben, as well as chop his own arm off, his own son.

Id say its still pretty impressive to see good in that.

[Dr.Samurai]

@Reddish Mage: You said it better than I did. I agree. That's the other sticking point I made; this movie goes out of its way to turn everything on its head. That's the context we're discussing these awful choices in.

Whilst not baby killing if somebody revealed to me to be my father insisted I join the mafia buisness and shot me in the chest when I didn't comply I would see that person as an utter monster.

Luke never saw Vader commit Genocide, but he saw him Kill Ben, as well as chop his own arm off, his own son.

Id say its still pretty impressive to see good in that.

For sure. I'm not trying to take anything away from Luke. In fact, it's his willingness to try and save his father despite what he is that makes me feel like The Last Jedi totally missed the mark.

What Luke does in the throne room takes an incredible amount of courage. And he does it out of familial duty, and love. He can sense that his father is conflicted, and when he confronts Vader about it he responds that it's too late. Luke senses that Vader is conflicted but has given up hope of redemption. Luke is the only person in the entire galaxy concerned with Vader's salvation and redemption. It's incredible. He's standing in a room with the two most powerful and evil men in the galaxy and he throws down his lightsaber in defiance of both of them to save his father.

In fact... it fits in with Rose's message to Finn. You're not going to win by fighting the Emperor, but by saving your father.

Too bad Luke forgot about his own courage and conviction and love. Oh well. The movie did a lot of things differently so the critics think it's great lol. I hope in Episode 9 they swap the resistance insignia with the First Order one, and rebels fly TIE fighters and troopers fly X-Wings.

Instant masterpiece.

[Cikomyr]

I
Indeed. Someone made a comment earlier that Luke has seen the worst in Vader, and likened him to a Holocaust survivor. I think that's got it wrong. Kenobi has seen the worst of Vader. Namely, Vader killing children, Vader killing his wife, Vader hunting down his former brothers and sisters in the Force and exterminating them. Luke has only heard stories and has actually faced Vader himself, but he doesn't know the worst of what Vader can do.

I wanted merely to point out that our judgement, as people living in peace and prosperity, is probably different than someome who had to suffer hardship and torture at the hands of a tyrant; and that they may take a different viewpoint on the moral dilemma we were discussing.

You are right; Luke isnt a Holocaust survivor. But Leia is. So are citizens of Lothol. And Luke saw the burning corpses of his adoptive parents.

And we dont know just how much horror Luke witnessed first hand during his time as Hero of the Rebellion. Luke was at the forefront of the fight against Vader.

I just cannot accept that someone who has endured hardship, war and horror for the defining part of their lives would act the same as someone who lived in safety and security the majority of their lives. This is why i dont have a problem with the viceral reaction of fear and horror Luke had.

And again: he did not act on it. We are not always proud of the emotion we feel vicerally. But you can be proud not to follow that ugly side of yourself. Luke did not let his fear take the better of him at the time; no matter how profound and powerful that fear was.

Ya know.. I wouldn't be surprised if the vision Luke had that led him to the Fear wasn't an illision thrown by Snoke to force the fall of Ben. It wouldn't be the first time a dark force user sends prophetic visions to a Jedi so they take action that will lead them toward the very prophecy they wish to avoid.

[Dienekes]

Entirely. The Luke from Return of the Jedi would never take the easy way of simply killing a potential problem, he wouldn't even think about it.

I'm sorry, but did we not watch the same movie?

Spoiler: RotJ gifs

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He does think about. Him thinking about killing the potential problem was the entire climax of the movie. He decides to do the right thing. Hell he throws his lightsaber away. But that's the point. He thought about it. He was tempted. But he does the right thing in the end.

That's exactly what happened here. He thought about taking the easy way out. He was tempted to solve all his problems in one stroke. But it was a moment of weakness and he was going to do the right thing. Only this time, he didn't get the chance to fix his mistake. He was knocked unconscious and everything he had worked for his entire life was destroyed. Because he made a mistake.

The Luke of The Last Jedi has abandoned everything we know about Luke, he is a broken old man burdened with regret, angry at himself, and externalizing that anger upon the Jedi order.

Yes. This is correct. We see Luke after the 30 years since Jedi having developed for the worst. Loss in his own sorrow and self-pity. Expecting to die a failure.

Getting him out of that position and back to the Luke we loved from the original trilogy is exactly the point of his entire character arc. That may not have been the character arc you wanted. But, honestly, I don't think I've heard a better one that continues with the theme of heroism and how it warps people and ideologies.

Him saying "Oh some evil force user tempted me to be naughty and I went to the Jedi Temple to find out how" may (barely) keep Luke as a Christ figure. But it makes any character growth none existant or pointless.

Because, him being wasting away in some ass end of the Galaxy that's already canon. Can't change that. His apprentice already is going on a murder rampage, and he knows it. He still decided to bug out. His best friend and brother-in-law died while he was off milking space walruses or whatever they have him end up doing. Can't change that either.

No matter where you go with this, it's either going to look selfish or he's going to be stuck in something even further beyond the scope of the First Order. If you want to have the story actually focus on the interactions of the protagonists of the first movie, you can't do option 2. So, we're left with Luke behaving selfishly.

So, roll with it. Actually analyze why and how and make the story bringing him back to the right path. And that's what they did.

Luke's character wasn't altered arbitrarily for the plot, he was altered purposely to further of a plot that was propelled by countlessly shocking, destroying, upsetting, and moving right on past.

I think this will always be the crux of the problem. Because when I read this, the only thing I think is "Good." I don't want to rewatch the past. I already saw the past. It was good. Now do something new, for the love of The Force. Upset the establish order, bring a little anarchy to the system. Take chances. Make mistakes. Get messy.

Just do not give me a story where Luke trains Rey in the Force while spouting some half-baked ideological flimflam. Where his self imposed exile is specifically for the hero's benefit, or never explained at all. Where it's never really explained why he doesn't just go out and be awesome instead of the heroes, beyond some rather vague nods to this being the new heroes job to win.

I've already seen that movie. I loved that movie, it's my favorite in the series. But that's done now. Do something new.

[Jayngfet]

Too bad Luke forgot about his own courage and conviction and love. Oh well. The movie did a lot of things differently so the critics think it's great lol. I hope in Episode 9 they swap the resistance insignia with the First Order one, and rebels fly TIE fighters and troopers fly X-Wings.

Instant masterpiece.

Exactly. It's not even that you have anything new, you just have the same thing happen but this time never bother to finish, or even begin, the arc. Just have NotLando has no reason to join up, and never really ends his arc so much as leaves the screen without us ever so much as learning his name. Our heroes split up and the jedi trainee goes to the old master to convince him, but even after he gets the ghostly blue image about who wasn't so different once upon a time he still refuses to do it and they learn nothing of substance(but are still the best anyway). NotLuke also goes into the dark side cave like Luke but has no real trials to win or fail and her pull to the dark side results in nothing, not even a cool face in a face moment. Then you have that whole Throne Room scene where NotSheev makes it clear he has no reason to keep Rey alive or play any games but he does it anyway just so he can die.

The Last Jedi isn't a bad movie because they misunderstood a character or because a B plot wasn't good. It's a bad movie because it's another retread that tries to be original by ignoring basic narrative structure, and somehow people have convinced themselves it's somehow not another reboot.

[LaZodiac]

Too bad Luke forgot about his own courage and conviction and love. Oh well. The movie did a lot of things differently so the critics think it's great lol. I hope in Episode 9 they swap the resistance insignia with the First Order one, and rebels fly TIE fighters and troopers fly X-Wings.

Instant masterpiece.

If he forgot his courage he'd of killed Ben instead of realizing his mistake. He wouldn't of left in shame for that moment of weakness.

[Jayngfet]

If he forgot his courage he'd of killed Ben instead of realizing his mistake. He wouldn't of left in shame for that moment of weakness.

If he'd had his courage he'd have gone after Ben.

Or, y'know, at least told Leia and Han.

[Scowling Dragon]

If he forgot his courage he'd of killed Ben instead of realizing his mistake. He wouldn't of left in shame for that moment of weakness.

What the ****? So courage is fear, old is new, undeveloped is fesh!
Love is hate! Hunger is Plenty!

Luke struggled with not Killing VADER
Ben was the son of his best friend at the time!

Its rediculous to say that he would have even close to the same reaction.

Where is this "Courage is Anger" mentality coming from. Pheh, whatever.

[LaZodiac]

What the ****? So courage is fear, old is new, undeveloped is fesh!
Love is hate! Hunger is Plenty!

Luke struggled with not Killing VADER
Ben was the son of his best friend at the time!

Its rediculous to say that he would have even close to the same reaction.

Where is this "Courage is Anger" mentality coming from. Pheh, whatever.

You COMPLETELY misread what I said, arguably on purpose. I said that if Luke forgot the things that made him good, as in he FORGOT, he would of just killed Ben outright. Because he's clearly evil, and as we've seen is not getting redeemed any time soon. But because he still is the person we knew and loved, he realized that stabbing a kid, his apprentice, to death in his sleep is kinda messed up. And when the result of this mistake was a lot of kids dying due to Ren showing he IS AS BAD AS HE FEARED, he runs away because he realizes how ****ed up the situation is. He SHOULD of killed his nephew, and the fact that he should of is something he's tormented by. So he leaves, sad that he failed to be as good as he used to be.

[Scowling Dragon]

You COMPLETELY misread what I said, arguably on purpose.

No, I genuinely apologize I misread what you said. Il always back down in a case like this.
In any case no what you said isn't much stronger either. Its kinda ridiculous overall.

Contrived is what this all is.
So hes convinced that this kid is more evil then Darth Vader...But not 100%. Did he suffer an annyurism or something? Its turtles all the way down really. Its just such a weak plot point.
Arguably the whole fate of the galaxy was changed on this one moment and its all so moronic overall.
And why does he think the kid is evil? Because the force said so? As opposed to witnessing Vaders evil acts firsthand?

I guess I can call those moments "Plot farts". When a character has to do something out of character and stupid in order to push the plot forward.

[LaZodiac]

He outright says he was concerned about how Ben's got some dark issues (most likely guess, hit someone too hard in training or had a shouting fit) and he went into his sleeping quarters to read his mind. And he read his mind and saw what sounded like brutal bloody warfare and chaos. The implication is that what Luke saw, reading his mind, was Kylo Ren using his jedi learned skills to kill countless people. Seeing that, realizing it's his fault, he acted on instinct. He's read the stories about Anakin and the original Jedi Counsel and how it ****ed everything up for not cutting out the overtly obvious evil. So he should do it.

But then he realizes "wait no I can do this. I redeemed Anakin! It involved me almost dying but I did it. This is my NEPHEW. I can't kill him!" and then Ren wakes up and notices what Luke was about to do. And that was that.

Also thank you for apologizing. It's appreciated.

[Dienekes]

What the ****? So courage is fear, old is new, undeveloped is fesh!
Love is hate! Hunger is Plenty!

Luke struggled with not Killing VADER
Ben was the son of his best friend at the time!

Its rediculous to say that he would have even close to the same reaction.

Where is this "Courage is Anger" mentality coming from. Pheh, whatever.

I'm sorry man, but I gotta ask. You do know bolding and using large font doesn't actually help your arguments, right? They kind of make you look like an immature screaming child.

It honestly makes it easier to ignore your posts, rather than more difficult.

[Mechalich]

If he'd had his courage he'd have gone after Ben.

Or, y'know, at least told Leia and Han.

Or he could have gone after Snoke.

I'm willing to accept that Luke feels horrible about his Ben/Kylo failure. It's a poorly done sequence, But fine, student betrays the master and the master can't handle it, sure. No real problems. but Ben didn't betray Luke on his own, Snoke seduced him to the dark side. Somehow, apparently. Everyone says this happened even though we have no idea how it occurred at all and Snoke isn't presented as charismatic or seductive in the slightest (say what you want about the Prequels, but Ian McDiarmid's Palpatine as capable of seducing someone to the dark side was at least believable) and treats Kylo like a child. Regardless, at no point does Luke attempt to do anything whatsoever about Snoke. Which is frankly ridiculous.

TLJ has a huge Snoke-shaped hole in the plot. Not because of what happens to Snoke, but because nothing has been revealed about the character at all. Where he came from, how he became a master of the dark side, how he ended up in charge of the first order (especially given that he's apparently the only alien in the entire blasted enterprise), how he was able to subvert members of Luke's academy, why on Earth telling Kylo Ren he could be the 'next Vader' was appealing in the slightest. I mean come on, Ben Solo was born post-ROTJ. He grew up under a Republic regime in which, redemption aside, Vader would have been known as history's second biggest war criminal. Idolizing him is like idolizing Hitler. It's a huge disconnect.

Luke is apparently aware of Snoke's culpability in Ben becoming Kylo, and several other students being involved as well. He totally ignores this, which makes no sense.

It's one thing to say 'it's time for the Jedi to end,' if the light of the force has gone out from the galaxy and the only remaining people are petulant Kylo Ren and barely trained Rey. It's entirely another thing to say that when a Sith Lord (or whatever, again, no idea who or what Snoke is) is running around actively trying to conquer everything. It's a statement that is completely and utterly opposed to the reality of what is happening in the galaxy and it makes Luke like an idiot.

[Reddish Mage]

He outright says he was concerned about how Ben's got some dark issues (most likely guess, hit someone too hard in training or had a shouting fit) and he went into his sleeping quarters to read his mind. And he read his mind and saw what sounded like brutal bloody warfare and chaos. The implication is that what Luke saw, reading his mind, was Kylo Ren using his jedi learned skills to kill countless people. Seeing that, realizing it's his fault, he acted on instinct. He's read the stories about Anakin and the original Jedi Counsel and how it ****ed everything up for not cutting out the overtly obvious evil.

In the EU when a near-identical scenario occurs, Luke actively chases after the student with the intent to calm him down and bring him back.

That version of Luke, the one who always sees the good in everyone, who tries for redemption, seems the most consistent and true to the character version of Luke. Moreover, it is that version we see at the end of Return of the Jedi that sums up the entire franchise in a message that compassion triumphs over all.

That Luke Skywalker abandons that message, that he basically tells Rey off for wanting to give Ben Solo the same chance Luke gave to Vader in Episode 6, actively undermines the greatest moment in the franchise.

This movie undermines that message. Rey never learns compassion from Luke Skywalker, apparently she had it in her heart, but this time, that attribute doesn't seem useful. Instead, Rey just helps Ben Solo precipitate a coup and more death and destruction follow.

Once upon a time, one could (and the articles above did) argue that Luke, the Jedi, and Star Wars as a whole had a particular powerful positive message to tell. That message has now been muddled.

[Jayngfet]

As much as Kyp Durron was a polarizing character, he always portrayed exactly what Luke believed in. He killed more people than Vader ever did, went into darkness more or less fully, rampaged across the galaxy, and Luke still believed in him and took him back. Among his first class of jedi like a third of them had touched the dark side and done terrible things, and he believed in them and their ability to be great Jedi Knights serving the galaxy. Even when Gantoris took him by surprise and actively attacked him, he believed in the guy and that he could work through it.

That version of Luke was scared. He clammed up during moments he ideally wouldn't have. He was afraid. He didn't have much to go off. He had difficult students and lethal challenges. But he persevered and didn't let a few students in Bens exact same situation cause him to give up on them or the galaxy under siege from that threat.

[Scowling Dragon]

I gotta hand it to EA: This is pretty stellar Luke Writing:


Maybe Disney should have hired the guy who wrote for EA to Direct their next movie.

[huttj509]

That Rey, raised an orphan, dreams of having parents. Who were they? Are they awesome?

For any orphan, the answer to that question is almost ALWAYS disapointment. Blaming the movie for getting us to empathize with that is out of place.

I also love that, in that moment, Kylo Ren thinks he's doing her a favor.

He's grown up and lived in the shadow of his parents, uncle, grandfather. She's "free" of that. She can be her own person. He's needed to put the past aside, needs to kill it, but she has less far to go to do that, and just needs to cut her attachment to the resistance and people she's known less than a year. They don't matter. Nothing matters. We have each other. #$%@#$ Nihilists, man.

I just...I just love how human Kylo feels. He's not a larger than live villain, he's an emotionally wounded person trying to be that larger than life individual, and only knows how to do so through strength, violence, and fear.

[Rakaydos]

So post TLJ, here's my Snoke theory.

Basically evil mirror universe version of the Kyp Durran story. Every place a jedi master sets up has some kind of darkside nexus nearby. Even the Jedi Temple on corusant is apparently built on a goddam darkside verdance. So Luke sets up his academy near exar kun's Snoke's tomb, with an actual Snoke mummy because snoke has a body. Apprentice accidently awakens Snoke without Luke knowing, Luke starts dealing with dark side influence on his students, finds the hooks deep in Ben Solo, and the presence of the darkside makes even a jedi master quick to fear. Luke catches himself, ashamed, but it's too late, as we saw. Kylo, the awakened Snoke mummy, and other dark-influenced apprentices burn down the academy and run away. Luke is overcome with remorse and failure- sends R2 to leia with a final message and vanishes into the unknown regions.

[Hopeless]

I still prefer my idea that Snoke was a former Jedi turned Inquisitor who survived to join the Empire's flight into the Unknown Regions where he eventually usurped power and began his campaign to retake the Republic.
His Loyalist Senators wasn't present when the Hosnian system was blown up allowing to assume control and through them Snoke is truly the Supreme Leader.
He knew who Vader was and learnt about Leia because of recordings of the death of the Emperor.
It was simple to gain access to Ben as his father was busy teaching new pilots, his mother being a politician and one extra detail.
Leia was trained by Luke, but not beyond Knight status at very best, she taught Ben until she realised Snoke was corrupting him.
She sent him to Luke hoping he could save her son, but it was already too late as her father's identity was about to be revealed if that threatened Leia with assassination what of Luke and his academy this time kept away from the political intrigue that eventually caused the downfall of the Prequel Jedi Order?
Carrying a beacon, Ben led a New Republic strike force to Luke and destroyed his academy allowing Ben to take the blame as now homeless he became Kylo Ren and Snoke's apprentice.
Luke however survived assumed now the Last Jedi he goes into hiding after leaving R2 for Leia to find.
That crystal in TFA was actually part of R2's memory core and the only place holding the course to where Luke was waiting.
The Republic already infiltrated leaked details on Resistance operations to the FO including tagging their ships after all Snoke easily helped them believe they were as potentially dangerous extremists!

[Blackhawk748]

The really weird thing about Snoke is, is that I don't think he's a sith. He doesn't have the Darth title (neither does Kylo) and I don't think he even mentions sith.

Just more questions that won't be answered

[Dr.Samurai]

If he forgot his courage he'd of killed Ben instead of realizing his mistake. He wouldn't of left in shame for that moment of weakness.

Spoiler

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He definitely forgot his courage. He runs away from his mistake. He abandons everyone because of this slip up. He gives up all responsibility and exiles himself.

As someone mentioned upthread, we are never told that Luke ever confronted Snoke.

In this movie, he is afraid of Rey's power and he stops teaching her within two minutes of beginning her training.

He never leaves his island to confront Kylo.

He dies, on his own terms, just like he always intended when he went there in the first place.

This Luke is not courageous. I'm not sure how that can be argued with.

It's a stark contrast to his selflessness in The Return of the Jedi, where Luke essentially trades his life for his father's, one of the most evil men in the galaxy. This Luke in The Last Jedi has so much hubris that he can't even allow himself a little mistake (as you guys put it). He's Luke Skywalker. He can't make mistakes. So now that he has, goodbye galaxy. Oh the First Order is conquering. Meh, I'm sad. Oh, they destroyed the Republic's capital? Meh, I made a mistake years ago. Oh, Han Solo died trying to take down Starkiller Base? Meh, I'm damaged goods. And so on and so forth, for years. Leia sent you? My twin sister whose son I failed and whose husband just died? Let me just throw this lightsaber over this cliff since it doesn't seem like you're getting my point...

Luke's great contribution was to let the Resistance survive one more day. All twelve of them. The First Order still can track through light speed, still can detect cloaked ships, still outnumbers and outguns the Resistance, still is conquering or has conquered the galaxy, but Luke tricked Kylo Ren and gave him a little ol' wink at the end there, and the Resistance made it off the planet. Poe did something like that at the beginning of the movie, if you remember, but this time we needed *the* Jedi grandmaster to do it. So the reason we needed to get that secret map from Starkiller Base, the reason R2 was programmed to light up when the other piece of the map was activated, the reason Leia sent Rey to find Luke was... who ****ing knows and who cares at this point? Certainly Disney doesn't.

@Jayngfet/Mecalich/Reddish Mage/Scowling Dragon: Agreed.

[hamishspence]

The really weird thing about Snoke is, is that I don't think he's a sith. He doesn't have the Darth title (neither does Kylo) and I don't think he even mentions sith.

The TLJ visual dictionary really hammered this home - emphasising that they are not Sith, that The Prophesy is fulfilled and the last Sith were Vader & Sidious - but also, that the end of the Sith does not mean the end of "darkness".

[Mechalich]

The TLJ visual dictionary really hammered this home - emphasising that they are not Sith, that The Prophesy is fulfilled and the last Sith were Vader & Sidious - but also, that the end of the Sith does not mean the end of "darkness".

Snoke not being Sith actually makes things worse, not better, regarding his lack of a backstory. If the answer to Snoke's identity was that he's actually Darth Plagueis or the son of Darth Plagueis, well that would be lame and unoriginal but all questions regarding Snoke would be answered. And it only take a half-line of dialogue from Luke to handle the reveal. 'Ben was tempted by Darth Plagueis - he goes by Snoke now...' and you're done.

Luke's great contribution was to let the Resistance survive one more day. All twelve of them. The First Order still can track through light speed, still can detect cloaked ships, still outnumbers and outguns the Resistance, still is conquering or has conquered the galaxy, but Luke tricked Kylo Ren and gave him a little ol' wink at the end there, and the Resistance made it off the planet. Poe did something like that at the beginning of the movie, if you remember, but this time we needed *the* Jedi grandmaster to do it. So the reason we needed to get that secret map from Starkiller Base, the reason R2 was programmed to light up when the other piece of the map was activated, the reason Leia sent Rey to find Luke was... who ****ing knows and who cares at this point? Certainly Disney doesn't.

Apparently Rian Johnson was given complete carte blanche by Disney for Episode VIII - I find this almost unimaginable, but he's claimed this in interviews. This apparently included being allowed to completely forget he was writing part of a trilogy at all. The final shot of TLJ reminded me of the final shot of ME3 - a smash cut to the far future hinting at legends of the past. This isn't movie 3 though, it's movie 2. Supposedly there is nothing written for Episode IX to this point - they're just pitching it now, but the hole to dig out of is immense. The final shot of ESB was entirely setup for ROTJ - it showed the Rebel fleet massing and Lando and Chewie going to look for Han. ESB also teased the Emperor as Vader's master, setting up the final villain. TLJ does nothing in this regard.

Spoiler: strategic situation at the end of TLJ

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So. The Rebels/Resistance consist of exactly one starship - the Millennium Falcon - and maybe a dozen people who managed to escape onto it. This includes Poe, Finn, Rose, and a couple of pilots and starship crew. Also Leia, but she's obligated to die off-screen before Episode IX and therefore doesn't count. They have Rey as a force user and yes, she's fairly tough (justified or not) but she's not fully trained. And...that's it. Additionally they have no active allies elsewhere in the galaxy. A distress call was put out and nobody came. Nobody.

The First Order, meanwhile, took no major losses following Poe's assault on the Dreadnaught in the opening sequence. Yes their flagship was damaged and a bunch of stormtroopers, TIEs, and walkers were destroyed, but the ship was not destroyed and neither were any of its escorts. Phasma may or may not have perished, but she isn't important anyway (to the point that I hope Gwendoline Christie got a big paycheck for putting on that armor, because she's so much better than that role).

Additionally TLJ shows that the First Order is able to survive a change in leadership. Kylo takes out Snoke and Hux caves after about ten seconds and no one in the fleet protests, mutinies, or otherwise goes off mission. This actually matters a lot. The Rebels won at the end of ROTJ because the Emperor and Darth Vader died and that, along with the destruction of their superweapon, induced an imperial collapse, but TLJ has just established that this should not be possible for the First Order. Even if Kylo and Hux die, other officers should be able to carry on the fight.

How you square the circle of this and deliver victory for the rebels is beyond me.

Ultimately, the way TLJ is setup it strongly implies that the next move is a major timeskip before Episode IX. Honestly that's the only way to give the Rebels time to rebuild (and also to dump Hux and replace him with someone more capable of portraying a space nazi, sorry Domhnall Gleeson but this just isn't your genre), but in terms of practical movie-making there's no way to do that. Are you going to put everyone in the central cast in old-age makeup? Come on.

[hamishspence]

Spoiler: strategic situation at the end of TLJ

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Yes their flagship was damaged and a bunch of stormtroopers, TIEs, and walkers were destroyed, but the ship was not destroyed and neither were any of its escorts.

Going by the Wookieepedia article:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Raddu..._Star_Cruiser)

Spoiler

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the Supremacy took enough damage to qualify as "destroyed" and several of its escorts were taken out too.


However, given that there were around 30 Star Destroyers in the fleet sent to chase down the resistance, and given that it's implied that the Siege Dreadnought is not the only Dreadnought in their fleet, the losses are not an insurmountable problem.

[pendell]

Something that annoys me about the whole discussion of sacrifice et al:

I'm looking through the credits and I don't see anything like a military advisor. Am I misreading?

Looking at Mr. Johnson's biography . It appears he graduated from high school , went to cinematic film school, and has had a productive career in movies since. Hasn't ever done anything else.

So who the flip is he to lecture us on whether a military sacrifice does or does not have value?

See, I'd take that from Christopher Lee (Ex-RAF, ex-SAS). I'd take that from Mel Brooks (former US Army). Heck, I'd take it from any of these men and women.

But I'm not going to sit and be lectured by a hollywood director whose closest encounter with the elephant is his force-beloved Xbox.

Please, Mr. Johnson, lecture us about stuff you actually have a clue about or hire an advisor who knows something about fighting. THEN you can lecture all you want.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Scowling Dragon]

but also, that the end of the Sith does not mean the end of "darkness".

Wow, that's a bunch of bull****.
I'm not saying its bad to sidestep the prophecy or something but damn is that obnoxious.
"Im not a Sith im a Siht! Totally different!"
Lazy lazy lazy like a self cleaning toilet this trilogy is.
You don't copy all the visual language lockstep for lockstep for 3 movies, and then say "not a Sith! Utterly different!".

Ultimately, the way TLJ is setup it strongly implies that the next move is a major timeskip before Episode IX. Honestly that's the only way to give the Rebels time to rebuild (and also to dump Hux and replace him with someone more capable of portraying a space nazi, sorry Domhnall Gleeson but this just isn't your genre), but in terms of practical movie-making there's no way to do that. Are you going to put everyone in the central cast in old-age makeup? Come on.

Like yes there will be a timeskip, but that only serves to make this even worse. Timeskips tend to be terrible if they are not organic.
And this essentially means that the writers can have whatever they want happen inbetween timeskips.

So not only are we dealing with the force being a lazy plot device, "Mystery" as a lazy excuse for lack of sense, but also timeskips to undo or redo whatever the writers want inbetween.

Everything exists in this contextless, nebulous haze.

[Chromascope3D]

Wow, that's a bunch of bull****.
I'm not saying its bad to sidestep the prophecy or something but damn is that obnoxious.
"Im not a Sith im a Siht! Totally different!"
Lazy lazy lazy like a self cleaning toilet this trilogy is.
You don't copy all the visual language lockstep for lockstep for 3 movies, and then say "not a Sith! Utterly different!".



Like yes there will be a timeskip, but that only serves to make this even worse. Timeskips tend to be terrible if they are not organic.
And this essentially means that the writers can have whatever they want happen inbetween timeskips.

So not only are we dealing with the force being a lazy plot device, "Mystery" as a lazy excuse for lack of sense, but also timeskips to undo or redo whatever the writers want inbetween.

Everything exists in this contextless, nebulous haze.

I mean, both the Sith and Jedi were just specific doctrines examining the Dark and Light side of the Force respectively. But the Force is a universal constant, those philosophies can't have an entire oligopoly upon worshiping a fundamental force of nature. If you worship the Sun, you don't necessarily have to subscribe to the Aztec's specific beliefs regarding it.

Also, there was a time skip between ANH and ESB, as well as another one between ESB and RotJ. Not to mention that there was a timeskip following every prequel. In fact, I'm pretty sure TLJ is the first mainline Star Wars entry that picked up immediately where its predecessor left off. So, eh, maybe it could be hamfisted, but I don't necessarily believe that it would be out of place in this franchise specifcally to have one now.