The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

[Dr.Samurai]

@Mechalich, I agree completely.

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Rian just made a stand alone film, and a pretty unimportant one at that as far as what gets accomplished. He ignores events in TFA (not just mystery box stuff, but the actual events that happen) and doesn't set up the final film in the trilogy. I walked out of the theater wondering the exact same questions you're asking.

In TFA, Starkiller Base has been destroyed. Kylo Ren has been defeated and is ordered to complete his training. Rey has found Luke. It sets you up for the sequel.

Then the sequel comes and none of that matters one whit. And then the sequel ends and leaves no sense of direction for what's to come, and very little to anticipate.

I left the theater with virtually zero interest in watching the next installment. And not only that, a very cynical outlook toward *any* buzz and hype that will surround the final film.

ETA: At some point in the discussion I forgot to spoiler stuff. I went back and edited my previous posts to add spoiler tags.

[hamishspence]

I'm not saying its bad to sidestep the prophecy or something but damn is that obnoxious.
"
You don't copy all the visual language lockstep for lockstep for 3 movies, and then say "not a Sith! Utterly different!".

I mean, both the Sith and Jedi were just specific doctrines examining the Dark and Light side of the Force respectively. But the Force is a universal constant, those philosophies can't have an entire oligopoly upon worshiping a fundamental force of nature. If you worship the Sun, you don't necessarily have to subscribe to the Aztec's specific beliefs regarding it.

I think it's a case of "having to stick to the letter of what Lucas has established". Anakin has to destroy the Sith - not "temporarily prevent them from returning, for barely one generation".

[Talakeal]

Not sure how accurate it is, but if you google Snoke you can find his (relatively unimpressive) backstory.

AFAICT he was a force sensitive scholar who was very old and very smart and collected all manner of lore and ancient texts from both the Jedi and the Sith. Once both the Jedi and the Sith were no longer around to stop him he tried practicing what he read about, fell to the dark side, and then used his knowledge of history to recreate Palpatine's emperor but this time with better hindsight.


Personally if was going with this angle I wouldnt have made him a force user at all and really played up the "wizard of oz" vibe, just making him a really smart manipulative guy with no powers who is really good at the theatrics so everyone is scared of him and believes him to be super powerful but unsure of exactly how.

[Sapphire Guard]

I'm kind of in disbelief over just how cynical and manipulative it is for Disney to revive a previously completed franchise, then make a film about how the battles between good and evil will keep happening as long as its profitable, and then say that that's the fault of the Skywalker Legacy which needs to be ended for final victory. Now, does everyone have their tickets for next year?

[137beth]

I think it's a case of "having to stick to the letter of what Lucas has established". Anakin has to destroy the Sith - not "temporarily prevent them from returning, for barely one generation".

And part of the problem is that the prophecy never made sense. At the stat of Episode I, the jedi leaders believe that there are no Sith left. "The Sith are extinct." I think it's supposed to mirror the beginning of episode IV, where Tarkin and Vader believe the Jedi to be extinct.

But then they find Anakin, believe he is the one prophesied to destroy the Sith, and they're...happy about it? If they already thought the Sith were destroyed, then Anakin being the one who will destroy the Sith isn't a good thing. If you don't have cancer, and I tell you a prophecy that "your cancer will subside," then that's bad news. In the best case scenario, it means that you are going to get cancer. You'll recover, but even recovering from cancer is really unpleasant, and there will always be an increased risk that it comes back.

But that's only the best case: it assumes the prophecy will be fulfilled in the obvious way that you want it to be fulfilled. As anyone who studied mythology can tell you, that may not happen. Maybe you'll die from cancer, and the prophecy will be fulfilled because the cancer cells die after you do. Maybe your cancer will "subside" temporarily, but never actually go away. Maybe something I haven't thought of will happen that will technically fulfill the prophecy in a way that's worse than you expect.


And that's why it doesn't make sense that Windu and Yoda were excited about the prospect of Anakin being the Chosen One. In the best case scenario, it meant an enemy they thought long defeated was still out there, and sure eventually the Jedi woudl win, but probably not without another war and a huge death toll. In the worst case, Anakin will "bring balance to the Force" in a way that is a lot worse. Maybe he will destroy all life in the universe, which has the side effect of destroying the Force, hence ending its unbalance. But even in the best case, the Chosen One was still bad news.


I agree that making Snoke a "Sith but we don't call him a Sith" seems kind of silly, but it may have been the best they could do without contradicting the established canon.

[Sapphire Guard]

Qui Gonn believes Anakin is the Chosen One. No one else does, they don't want to train him and Yoda considers it a really really bad idea, but Qui Gonn ropes Obi Wan into it with his dying promise, so they have to go along with it.

[137beth]

Qui Gonn believes Anakin is the Chosen One. No one else does, they don't want to train him and Yoda considers it a really really bad idea, but Qui Gonn ropes Obi Wan into it with his dying promise, so they have to go along with it.

Then Qui Gonn should have been scared about the possibility of Anakin being the Chosen One. He treated it like a good thing, when it wasn't.

Also, I thought Kenobi also believed that Anakin was the chosen one. Or at least, he did at some point. But it's been awhile since I watched the prequel trilogy, so I could just be misremembering.

I'm kind of in disbelief over just how cynical and manipulative it is for Disney to revive a previously completed franchise, then make a film about how the battles between good and evil will keep happening as long as its profitable, and then say that that's the fault of the Skywalker Legacy which needs to be ended for final victory. Now, does everyone have their tickets for next year?

The franchise wasn't completed at the time Disney bought Lucasfilm. New episodes of The Clone Wars were still airing, with Lucas in the producer's seat. And there was a plan for the live action series well before Disney got involved.

[pendell]

I'm kind of in disbelief over just how cynical and manipulative it is for Disney to revive a previously completed franchise, then make a film about how the battles between good and evil will keep happening as long as its profitable, and then say that that's the fault of the Skywalker Legacy which needs to be ended for final victory. Now, does everyone have their tickets for next year?

It's not surprising that the battle between good and evil will continue. Back in the old EU there was a story about Cade Skywalker, set a hundred years after Return of the Jedi. Once again, there was an Empire which Cade had to fight and overcome.

Evil is like a weed. You can kill it, but you cannot then assume your garden will be clean forever. I assume that if the Galactic Republic knew a thousand years of peace, it is only because the Jedi, acting as gardeners, used Force Precognition to see threats and forestall them while they were still small. Their arrogance eventually got the better of them, clouding their vision, which is why Palpatine was able to take over.

Of course, Palpatine was using the Dark Side to muddle their vision as well, but there were a thousand years of Sith Lords before him, including Darth Bane, who were at least comparable and either weren't able to or didn't try, because it was futile. As was said in the intro to the original ANH novelization, worms do not survive in healthy trees.

So the idea that there would once again be a battle between good and evil is from Lucas' original vision of the story. What irritates me is that the peace won at Endor -- in Disney's new canon -- lasted less than a generation and was destroyed by a splinter group in the outer regions who then went on to conquer the entire galaxy. Not by subversion, as Palpatine did , which was believable. No, they did it by raw military force, because evidently the rest of the galaxy was so supine they could do nothing except helplessly wait for a dozen-odd heroes to save the day.

Absurd. Suspension of disbelief broken.

This is also why I like the Thrawn series -- because whatever failures have occurred in the deployment of capital ships the story is at least somewhat plausible 15 years after Endor.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[GloatingSwine]

And part of the problem is that the prophecy never made sense. At the stat of Episode I, the jedi leaders believe that there are no Sith left. "The Sith are extinct." I think it's supposed to mirror the beginning of episode IV, where Tarkin and Vader believe the Jedi to be extinct.

No, even during Episode 1 they knew the dark side was active, there's a conversation between IIRC Yoda and Qui Gon about how the future is clouded and it is clearly shenanigans.

The prophecy was that Anakin was going to "restore balance to the Force", which the Jedi assumed meant that he would clear up the aforementioned shenanigans.

If they hadn't done such a godawful job of raising him and coping with a stroppy teenager, maybe they would have. But the Jedi were inflexible in their approach and that made their apparent strength brittle.

(If we accept other material, this is basically always the Jedi's problem. Whenever they're in a position of dominance some aspect of their structure calcifies and becomes brittle in the face of an Exar Kun, Darth Revan, or Sidious.)

[Peelee]

It's not surprising that the battle between good and evil will continue.

I wholly agree. Which just makes the prophecy freaking stupid.

[Cikomyr]

.

This is also why I like the Thrawn series -- because whatever failures have occurred in the deployment of capital ships the story is at least somewhat plausible 15 years after Endor.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

Unless you mean the new books, the Thrawn trilogy is 5 years after Endor

[Sapphire Guard]

It's not surprising that the battle between good and evil will continue. Back in the old EU there was a story about Cade Skywalker, set a hundred years after Return of the Jedi. Once again, there was an Empire which Cade had to fight and overcome.

Evil is like a weed. You can kill it, but you cannot then assume your garden will be clean forever. I assume that if the Galactic Republic knew a thousand years of peace, it is only because the Jedi, acting as gardeners, used Force Precognition to see threats and forestall them while they were still small. Their arrogance eventually got the better of them, clouding their vision, which is why Palpatine was able to take over.

Of course, Palpatine was using the Dark Side to muddle their vision as well, but there were a thousand years of Sith Lords before him, including Darth Bane, who were at least comparable and either weren't able to or didn't try, because it was futile. As was said in the intro to the original ANH novelization, worms do not survive in healthy trees.

So the idea that there would once again be a battle between good and evil is from Lucas' original vision of the story. What irritates me is that the peace won at Endor -- in Disney's new canon -- lasted less than a generation and was destroyed by a splinter group in the outer regions who then went on to conquer the entire galaxy. Not by subversion, as Palpatine did , which was believable. No, they did it by raw military force, because evidently the rest of the galaxy was so supine they could do nothing except helplessly wait for a dozen-odd heroes to save the day.

Absurd. Suspension of disbelief broken.

This is also why I like the Thrawn series -- because whatever failures have occurred in the deployment of capital ships the story is at least somewhat plausible 15 years after Endor.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

I wasn't expecting 'and they all lived happily ever after', I'm just seeing a lot of thinkpieces talking about how TLJ took jabs at how battles will always happen as long as they're profitable (Casino plot) so with Ep IX we might see a real ending rather than just another repeat of the cycle, when Disney has all these new Star Wars pictures in the pipeline having brought the franchise back because it was profitable.

The franchise wasn't completed at the time Disney bought Lucasfilm. New episodes of The Clone Wars were still airing, with Lucas in the producer's seat. And there was a plan for the live action series well before Disney got involved.

That's a little different from this many main series instalments, though.

[GloatingSwine]

This is also why I like the Thrawn series -- because whatever failures have occurred in the deployment of capital ships the story is at least somewhat plausible 15 years after Endor.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

Well, as much as a revanchist IJN admiral would have been able to reverse the outcome of the second world war if he uncovered the lost Spanish Armada, anyway.


The EU has problems of its own, not the least of which is the eternal shuffling of the same dozen or so characters through increasingly well worn steps.

That's probably the best thing in TLJ, the explicit rejection of the idea that the fate of the universe must revolve in perpetuity around one damn family.

[Jayngfet]

The EU has problems of its own, not the least of which is the eternal shuffling of the same dozen or so characters through increasingly well worn steps.

That's probably the best thing in TLJ, the explicit rejection of the idea that the fate of the universe must revolve in perpetuity around one damn family.

You say that as if the film didn't steal vast swathes of it's run time from Empire and Jedi, or as if somehow the setup didn't leave that same family in control of both sides of the war.

[Tvtyrant]

Well, as much as a revanchist IJN admiral would have been able to reverse the outcome of the second world war if he uncovered the lost Spanish Armada, anyway.


The EU has problems of its own, not the least of which is the eternal shuffling of the same dozen or so characters through increasingly well worn steps.

That's probably the best thing in TLJ, the explicit rejection of the idea that the fate of the universe must revolve in perpetuity around one damn family.

I would have enjoyed this movie a lot more if it was set 10 more years later, and none of the original cast or their families was in it. Kylo Ren could just as easily have been a different rebel leaders kid, and the nonesense of killing beloved characters on the altar of new, badly written movies would not have occured.

[Tyndmyr]

It was a Poe Dameron plan. We saw how well those worked out over the course ofvthis movie. Fortunately, Poe realized this himself before too many more people would die.

Spoilering, just out of an abundance of caution. That said, anyone still reading, eh...you probably ran into some spoilers already

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Given that they would have all died during the chase scene without Poe's initial actions, I'm not sure that's the case.

Also, given that the remainder of the Rebellion can now be comfortably seated inside the Millenium Falcon, gonna say that any theme of "more lives saved this way" is not supported by the film itself.

[Reddish Mage]

Its very clear what this movie does, which is to constantly and consistently demean, remove, and burn expectations of a Star Wars movie.

People who like what it does are basically saying “the initial idea was stupid and should have been changed” or “its was good awhile back but now its old and worn and needs to be shaken up.”

The rest of us may have liked Star Wars where it is, but what I am reading from people who disliked the movie is more along the lines of “if you were going to change everything you should have done it in a way that made more sense.”

Luke didn’t merely become a useless grouch but he did so in defiance of the expectations an entire movie (TFA) that was centered around both sides finding him and expecting him to be the key to their victory.

Personally, I actually expected the grouchiness, but I think it went too far and became far too curmudgeonly and hostile towards everything associated with the Jedi.

They did the same with Snoke, Rey’s parents, and even things the movie itself set up like the gambler with the rose print. It changes the rules for how the Force works and what technology does in universe. The list of things the movie does that utterly burns what came before in TFA, OT, or even just the scene before would be in the dozens.

However, the movie doesn’t make this its explicit mission so much as it goes about its business as the bodies just keep piling on. The plot wraps up neatly without promoting any profound philosophy or mystery or character dynamic to replace it. By the end, the movie has cleaned the slate but that’s all it accomplishes.

[Scowling Dragon]

Its very clear what this movie does, which is to constantly and consistently demean, remove, and burn expectations of a Star Wars movie.

Sorta. And the out of universe explanations just point to bad storytelling, and lazyness.
I feel like this movie is a bit of a fever dream in a sense. It does everything at once and poorly. What it says and what it does are two different things.

Like I just can't give it credit for "Risk". Its just asking the audience to forget the setup and logical reasoning and just live in the moment.
Ignore the plot holes! Focus on the right now!
Stupid character motivation? You didn't expect it did you? Therefore its smart!
The contextlessness of the universe makes it all nonsensical? Something something comentary!
And its combined with misrepresenting the past as well so it could be more clever then it.

Like as an aside:

If Yoda is gonna show up to berate luke, why didn't he show up during the construction of the temple?

He couldn't show up to prevent the jedi from making the same mistakes, but he sure can show up to insult and berate luke and cackle like the maniac he only pretended to be in the past.

[GloatingSwine]

Its very clear what this movie does, which is to constantly and consistently demean, remove, and burn expectations of a Star Wars movie.

People who like what it does are basically saying “the initial idea was stupid and should have been changed” or “its was good awhile back but now its old and worn and needs to be shaken up.

Actually, no.

What people who like it are saying is "The way to make a good Star Wars movie is not to file the serial numbers off of A New Hope".

Which is what TFA did.

There's no point making new Star Wars movies if you don't also make them new. It's not that Star Wars is "old and worn and needs to be shaken up", it's that Star Wars already exists and doesn't need making again.

I would have enjoyed this movie a lot more if it was set 10 more years later, and none of the original cast or their families was in it. Kylo Ren could just as easily have been a different rebel leaders kid, and the nonesense of killing beloved characters on the altar of new, badly written movies would not have occured.

To be honest, that's what they should have done with TFA. JJ was too busy being a fanboy about ANH and pointing at mystery boxes which he literally had no plans for answering (all the things people assume TFA was setting up and TLJ threw away like who Snoke really is, Rey's parents, Luke in hiding, and so on? There were no plans for any of that. It was all mysteries set up with literally no idea what they were going to mean because that's how JJ rolls).

The big narrative problem with the new movies is part of TFA's premise from the start, and it's that the First Order have had it far too easy, at the start of TFA they were functionally powerful enough that the Republic didn't dare touch them already, how did that happen so damn fast?

[Scowling Dragon]

Actually, no.

What people who like it are saying is "The way to make a good Star Wars movie is not to file the serial numbers off of A New Hope".

Which is what TFA did.

TLJ also filed off the made in china symbol from ESB and threw away the manual, so I just dont get how people call it new.

[GloatingSwine]

TLJ also filed off the made in china symbol from ESB and threw away the manual, so I just dont get how people call it new.

It's completely not though. There is a chase and a jedi master in hiding, but what they mean in this film, what they mean to the characters, how those characters develop, how they are resolved is totally different in ways that make the comparison futile.

[Tvtyrant]

You know what would have made the First Order make sense and would have made for good movies? Dealing with popular reprisals against Imperial supporters.

Rebellions are gruesome, whether they win or lose. Having a movie about Leia or other rebel high commands struggling to protect innocent (or not) people who were involved with the Empire and watching a kid whose family is torn apart by a mob and grows up to me First Order would have helped explain a lot of the new setting.

French Revolution in Space! Would fit into their theme of instiutional failure vs personal agency. Prequels were weakness and fall of the Republic, the OMs were the tyranny of burecratic dictatorship, then a set about the chaos and violence of mob rule undermining the popular support for the revolution. Snoke becomes Napolean, which is why he came to power so easily.

It would also fix the problems with the original character narrative. Luke hated being forced into the role of executioner by the New Republic, Rey's parents become imperial officers, Ben grew up watching the "light" massacre and persecute innocents and so craves order, Han washes his hands of everything political and Leia is trying to fix the forces they unleashed.

[Scowling Dragon]

the comparison futile.

Well that has a certain amount of self assured finality.

For sure its about 60% ESB, as opposed to TFA copying about 95% of ANH.

I guess a better statement would be:

An alternate interpretation of ESB, with the same sorts of places, events, characters.

But Id say its far from truly fresh.

[Tyndmyr]

Actually, no.

What people who like it are saying is "The way to make a good Star Wars movie is not to file the serial numbers off of A New Hope".

Which is what TFA did.

There's no point making new Star Wars movies if you don't also make them new. It's not that Star Wars is "old and worn and needs to be shaken up", it's that Star Wars already exists and doesn't need making again.

Wierdly enough, I'd be okay with an overt remake of the star wars series. Why not, right?

Just....you can't have it both ways. Either something is a sequel or a remake, it can't really be half of one thing and half the other.

I do agree that many of TLJ's problems were essentially inherited from TFA, but it didn't really do a good job of fixing those issues either, so...meh.

[Chen]

Well that has a certain amount of self assured finality.

For sure its about 60% ESB, as opposed to TFA copying about 95% of ANH.

I guess a better statement would be:

An alternate interpretation of ESB, with the same sorts of places, events, characters.

But Id say its far from truly fresh.

I mean what would be truly fresh by that definition? I mean we're watching a Star Wars movie. The only situations I'd say are similar to ESB are the fact the rebels are fleeing somewhere and that there's a Jedi Master doing some half-assed training of a new student. And even then while the situations are similar in broad strokes, they're completely different in setup and resolution.

The movie certainly has flaws, but I find it hard to say it's not, for the most, original, at least with respect to other Star Wars movies.

[Scowling Dragon]

I mean what would be truly fresh by that definition?

How about not another empire, and rebels song and dance?

How about new visuals, new factions, new design.
Have a rando be the hero, and maybe dont have the force do the heavy lifting (instead if just making a new uberpowered bloodline how about drop that element)?

How about a new song in the album instead of a remix?

[Peelee]

Well that has a certain amount of self assured finality.

For sure its about 60% ESB, as opposed to TFA copying about 95% of ANH.

I guess a better statement would be:

An alternate interpretation of ESB, with the same sorts of places, events, characters.

But Id say its far from truly fresh.

Eh, I dunno about 60%. Plus, there's at least 10% RotJ.

[Scowling Dragon]

Like The prequels failed to do what they set out to do.
But that was because of presentation, some of the details of the script, bad acting, bad staging, bad dialouge.
But not a bad idea.

The Prequel Trilogy did way more to subvert the ideas of Jedi, and played much more with the universe and world.
In terms of RISK and Freshness the Prequels are 20 times more that then the Sequel Trilogy.
So to me what I would have wanted would be something like the prequels but with all the aformentioned flaws fixed.

[Dr.Samurai]

Its very clear what this movie does, which is to constantly and consistently demean, remove, and burn expectations of a Star Wars movie.

It's hard not to agree with this. As the movie progresses you get the sneaking suspicion that there is a motive behind what you're watching, and it's not simply to tell a story.

The rest of us may have liked Star Wars where it is, but what I am reading from people who disliked the movie is more along the lines of “if you were going to change everything you should have done it in a way that made more sense.”

Yeah. To clarify, it's not "this is too sacred to do something different". It's "these are established characters, so whatever shake up you'd like to do should be within parameters that make sense".

Wanting to "shake it up" does not give you the freedom to just do whatever you want. I think if Leia was sitting on the sidelines not giving a **** about the resistance in TFA, people would complain. You don't get to change things up to that degree with little to no explanation and expect to get a free pass with "we're not rehashing old stuff".

And the biggest reason why is because heroes are responsible. They take on responsibilities that aren't necessarily their's and they shoulder them. So to see Han running away from his responsibilities is disappointing and not inline with the guy that had a change of heart and became a hero of the rebellion. Luke running away from his *many* responsibilities is disappointing and not inline with his character at the end of TLJ.

However, the movie doesn’t make this its explicit mission so much as it goes about its business as the bodies just keep piling on. The plot wraps up neatly without promoting any profound philosophy or mystery or character dynamic to replace it. By the end, the movie has cleaned the slate but that’s all it accomplishes.

The movie doesn't make it explicit but I certainly got that message before the movie was even close to being over.

If Yoda is gonna show up to berate luke, why didn't he show up during the construction of the temple?

He couldn't show up to prevent the jedi from making the same mistakes, but he sure can show up to insult and berate luke and cackle like the maniac he only pretended to be in the past.

It's funny because they call us fanboys, but one of the things I saw many people get super excited over is that Yoda returned as a puppet. And this, to me, is not a big deal at all and I don't care. I think he looks better in CGI (if the CGI is good of course). But I also don't mind it or hate it that he was a puppet. It just wasn't a big deal to me. What is a big deal to me is how they use these characters, and if the story is making sense.

There's a lot of potential, but they brought Yoda in to tell Luke it's okay to make mistakes. Thanks. We teach that to little kids...

[Darth Ultron]

But then they find Anakin, believe he is the one prophesied to destroy the Sith, and they're...happy about it?

Anakin is the prophesied one to bring balance to the Force.

Now that does make the odd bit the the Force is imbalanced at the start of the Phantom Menace. Though the Jedi just think the ''imbalance'' is something small and unimportant.....what we know it to be is that the Jedi are old and corrupt and the Force needs more then just one ''type'' of user....so more then just the Jedi.

It's like they have set up the idea that no just one group should access the Force....and both the Jedi and Sith have been always wrong. And The Last Jedi picks up on this idea and runs with it.