The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

[Scowling Dragon]

But the point is that the whole waiting for space knights and royalty as the only people who can save the galaxy is a thing that the movies need to move beyond.

That would be great. Too bad they package it with a bunch of bull****.

Its not a fix. Taking away the work part of the force just makes it a random superpower, devalues the whole thing.

At which point why isn't everybody force throwing rocks? Why isn't everybody born as gifted as Rey?

Or is it just a case that we need to reshuffle the playing field a bit, so we still end up with Super Duper Force gifted people better then everybody else anyway?

[Jayngfet]

And Poe was born with really good reflexes. And Rose was born being a good head for machines. We all have certain strengths or weaknesses. But the point is that the whole waiting for space knights and royalty as the only people who can save the galaxy is a thing that the movies need to move beyond. They need to be more than that.

Except for all intents and purposes Rey is a space knight, on par with any of the random dozens of space knights we saw in the prequels. You could say she doesn't technically hold the title in the same way Ben isn't technically a sith, but given that they have literally every one of the relevant accouterments and abilities that's more or less just quibbling.

Rey is the super special chosen one in the same vein every jedi is. They get their fancy laser swords by virtue of being chosen to get them. She can't not be super special even if you claim she somehow isn't.

[Darth Ultron]

Its doesn't make any sense to say that the Jedi where not really GREAT. Flawed yes, too sedintary and listless? Yes.
But Corrupt? Thats wrong on 30 levels.

Well, I'm only going by the movies....not the ton of other ''stuff''.

That seems exactly like what they're doing. That's the point of the coda at the end of the movie. The force is with everyone just reach out for it. It's why some rando kid with no training can force pull a broom to him.

It is not that Everyone can use the Force: It's anyone can maybe have the ability to use the Force. And this is not anything new...''the Force touches all living things'' aka ''everyone''.

It's a stupid way to handle the Force from now on.

The Force balances itself? So whenever some great evil Sith, oops, I mean Dark Side User arises, the Force will create an equally powerful and competent Force User on the Light Side.

No need to train or earn your abilities. They just get gifted to you. Nice...

There is no indication the Force balances itself.....it is people that cause the imbalance.

And it's not like the balance idea is new. You have Jedi Master demigod Yoda...and then up comes Sith Lord Demigod Palptine.

[Jayngfet]

And it's not like the balance idea is new. You have Jedi Master demigod Yoda...and then up comes Sith Lord Demigod Palptine.

Yoda is about 800 years older than Palpatine at the outside. He spent seven hundred of those as Jedi Grandmaster. Even if you wanted to get technical he wasn't even the only one of his species to both be a master and sit on the council concurrently, since by the time of the Phantom Menace they were both centuries old and incredibly powerful. They're unrelated at the conceptual level.

The whole "powerful light, powerful darkness" thing just does not work at the conceptual level.

[Scowling Dragon]

Well, I'm only going by the movies....not the ton of other ''stuff''.

Me as well. Lucas Retconned "1000 generations" into "1000 Years" of peace. But thats still 1000 stinkin years of peace. And thats established in films.

And man I remember the movie where the Jedi savagely attacked an unarmed civilian and roughed them up for kicks. It was Called Star Wars: The Never Happened Chapters

[Devonix]

All I can really say about Rey and her lineage is that it's what I'd been hoping for. And my hopes coming true may color my feelings on the subject and I know it.

[Scowling Dragon]

All I can really say about Rey and her lineage is that it's what I'd been hoping for. And my hopes coming true may color my feelings on the subject and I know it.

You wanted her to be another chosen one? Aight. I can't debate with personal preferences.

[Jayngfet]

All I can really say about Rey and her lineage is that it's what I'd been hoping for. And my hopes coming true may color my feelings on the subject and I know it.

Fair enough.

I'm not even mad at you. The entire scenario is nonsensical to begin with and needs way more explanation not just in the movie, but in the larger set of books. The problem is that Lucasfilm alternates between holding on to George's bad ideas on what a Jedi is, made up not just after the ot, but even the prequels had ended and are incompatible with them; and because Lucasfilm insists on playing coy and has literally decreed that nobody on payroll is even allowed to explain how the story got to this point. They have a hard ban on anything explaining how the new republic set itself up or how the jedi worked, even in the periphery to a story about something else. One of their best authors wants to do it but she simply isn't able to.

Then on top of that as much as Red Letter Media can be glib, Lucasfilm handed the keys to the kingdom to a young director who made flawed movies after having no plan going forward, and because he had zero interest in a majority of what else was going on he simply didn't care and didn't really bother to read what was written down, and was given what's by any filmmaking standards way more freedom than he'd otherwise be given. So on top of refusing to explain things and copping to ideas that don't make sense you have an entire extra set of ideas that don't make sense on top of that that now take precedence.

Which is how we get things like Pablo Hidalgo saying "Luke didn't technically make that map in the last movie, even though it literally has his name on it in big glowing letters." and expecting us to just let it slide.

[Chromascope3D]

You wanted her to be another chosen one? Aight. I can't debate with personal preferences.

Wow, you nailed it! You put the words right into their mouth, have a cookie!

------

Maybe we're looking at this the wrong way. Perhaps, among the other methods one might attain command over the Force, it also acts like Stephen King's ESP, in that it has the potential to naturally unlock itself in children that undergo extreme or persistent psychological or physiological duress? That could be one answer that doesn't necessarily involve being a chosen one.

[Scowling Dragon]

Maybe we're looking at this the wrong way. Perhaps, among the other methods one might attain command over the Force, it also acts like Stephen King's ESP, in that it has the potential to naturally unlock itself in children that undergo extreme or persistent psychological or physiological duress? That could be one answer that doesn't necessarily involve being a chosen one.

Then Rey still wouldn't be the primary candicate. Heck Finn would more likely become hyper force attuned under those circumstances.

[LaZodiac]

Wow, you nailed it! You put the words right into their mouth, have a cookie!

------

Maybe we're looking at this the wrong way. Perhaps, among the other methods one might attain command over the Force, it also acts like Stephen King's ESP, in that it has the potential to naturally unlock itself in children that undergo extreme or persistent psychological or physiological duress? That could be one answer that doesn't necessarily involve being a chosen one.

I mean, the Jedi kind of routinely trawled planets for random slave children to liberate, and actual children to effectively kidnap, if they had powerful Force potential. In the old republic Rey likely would of been picked up by Kit Fisto or something while he's off adventuring. It's kind of what they do.

EDIT: Also Scowling Dragon don't tease me. I definitely 100% think Finn's gonna get some degree of force capability in the last film. I'm like...90% sure the "awakening" Snoke mentioned was him, not Rey, given the timing of all those events.

[Scowling Dragon]

I'm like...90% sure the "awakening" Snoke mentioned was him, not Rey, given the timing of all those events.

Oh boy even more overpowered characters to just BURST onto the scene.

Again Im at least glad the movie was just a catastrophy all around. the mystery boxes are dust so I don't even have a twinge of regret anymore.

The only person feel bad for in this debacle is mark hammil. The guy deserved better. They have been treating him very poorly in real life. Making him bulk up for a glorified cameo in the first one and then dragging him through the mud in the second.

If it wheren't for Mark hammil Id comfortably just forget about the whole sequel series.

[Chromascope3D]

Then Rey still wouldn't be the primary candicate. Heck Finn would more likely become hyper force attuned under those circumstances.

I mean, there's no reason that he still can't. :P

[Scowling Dragon]

I mean, there's no reason that he still can't. :P

Since the bar is set at "Stable Boy" the water has been muddied to such a point that literally anything can happen. And I mean that in the sense that any sense of comparability has been utterly buggered.

You can only watch the franchise in the now. Not thinking ahead or behind because its now all built on collapsing quicksand.

[Chromascope3D]

Since the bar is set at "Stable Boy" the water has been muddied to such a point that literally anything can happen. And I mean that in the sense that any sense of comparability has been utterly buggered.

You can only watch the franchise in the now. Not thinking ahead or behind because its now all built on collapsing quicksand.

I think I'll wait til the trilogy is wrapped before I can make judgments like that.

[Scowling Dragon]

I think I'll wait til the trilogy is wrapped before I can make judgments like that.

Again, when your building your house next to the ocean, in quicksand and on a fault like you can kinda know what to expect.
I said it at TFA and Il say it know: They set themselves up for failure.
Instead of expanding and trying new elements they shrunk them all down. And this movie shrunk, even more elements down.
JJ is a master of Mediocre action flicks so I expect a self contained mediocre wrap up by the 3rd one, but it will not be possible to have the trilogy as a whole feel balanced or be cohesive.

[LaZodiac]

If it wheren't for Mark hammil Id comfortably just forget about the whole sequel series.

I mean you could just do that. It'd probably save you the trouble in the long run, spoilers you won't like Solo and you won't like Episode 9.

[Scowling Dragon]

I mean you could just do that. It'd probably save you the trouble in the long run, spoilers you won't like Solo and you won't like Episode 9.

Hey what about "You gotta watch it before you critique it?"

In all likelyhood I won't bother with Solo. Im just curious as to why somebody would. His story is completly unimportant A, and it ends with a wet fart B

[Chromascope3D]

Again, when your building your house next to the ocean, in quicksand and on a fault like you can kinda know what to expect.
I said it at TFA and Il say it know: They set themselves up for failure.
Instead of expanding and trying new elements they shrunk them all down. And this movie shrunk, even more elements down.
JJ is a master of Mediocre action flicks so I expect a self contained mediocre wrap up by the 3rd one, but it will not be possible to have the trilogy as a whole feel balanced or be cohesive.

And I don't feel that way. Believe it or not, I actually really enjoyed this movie, for reasons that I've already mentioned. Was it flawless? Absolutely not. But has any Star Wars film been flawless? Of course not, the Star Wars fandom is infamous in how much it nitpicks its own films to death. But that doesn't ruin my enjoyment of them.

But I'm biased, of course. I'll take a flawed auteur work over a paint-by-numbers made-by-committee work any day of the week. So yeah, I am willing to overlook some flaws to appreciate its strengths. Just like you're more than willing to ignore its strengths and hyperfixate on its flaws to try and fit it into your narrative.

Not that it matters, of course. It isn't like the eldritch cosmic entity known to us only as "Mickey" needs lil ol me to defend it on some internet board.

[LaZodiac]

Hey what about "You gotta watch it before you critique it?"

In all likelyhood I won't bother with Solo. Im just curious as to why somebody would. His story is completly unimportant A, and it ends with a wet fart B

I mean nothing is forcing you to watch something you don't like. I don't imagine you've made any blood oaths to the contrary...

That's fair. I for one can't wait for stupid idiot young adult crime adventure. They showed us Han's space fuzzy dice in his bang wagon. I wanna see dumb hotshot smugglerman Han Solo and his friend Lando do awful idiot space crimes and accidentely save a Wookie's life so Han's sidled with a life debt for the rest of his life. I imagine that'll lead to hilarity as Han tries to do some degree of subtle crime action. And then Chewie kills everyone with his crossbow bazooka thing.

I for one embrace the fact that the Star Wars Stories movies are going to play like a group of idiots playing Star Wars DND. It's fantastic and I love it.

[Psyren]

Watched it, loved it. I don't get what all the controversy, petitions etc. are about, this movie and the direction they're taking the franchise are great. What is the big deal?

[LaZodiac]

Watched it, loved it. I don't get what all the controversy, petitions etc. are about, this movie and the direction they're taking the franchise are great. What is the big deal?

The Big Deal (tm) is that ultimately, some people disagree with that and don't know how to say so in a way that comes off as proper discourse, and instead comes off as whining like a baby.

[Lord Raziere]

Watched it, loved it. I don't get what all the controversy, petitions etc. are about, this movie and the direction they're taking the franchise are great. What is the big deal?

This is basically my position as well. But then again I unironically enjoyed The Phantom Menace and didn't find Episode 2 and 3 all that bad, so what do I know? Maybe I'm just a sucker for snarky dialogue and awesome action scenes.

[The Patterner]

The whole discussion of Rey and her power levels reminds me of an old X-men comic when a telekinetic is trying to learn to use her powers. She has no problem liftiting heavy objects but when asked to lift a single coin without causing any damage or disturbance she struggles.

She had the power, but lacked finesse.

That's kind of how i see Rey, she has a lot on brute 'force' strength, but lacks control.

So she can hold her own when it comes down to power (like struggling over a lightsaber), but has no chance resisting force manipulation.

It's not a new concept (or even unrealistic one tbh), altough I'm unsure if that's how it works in the SW universe.

[Psyren]

This is basically my position as well. But then again I unironically enjoyed The Phantom Menace and didn't find Episode 2 and 3 all that bad, so what do I know? Maybe I'm just a sucker for snarky dialogue and awesome action scenes.

I disliked Phantom Menace (and absolutely loathed Attack of the Clones) but TFA/TLJ/R1 were all really good in my opinion, and I have high hopes for the franchise. TLJ in particular I feel was aimed directly at the complaints of folks who said "they just remade A New Hope!" It's definitely its own thing.

[Razade]

Just got back from seeing it.

Is it perfect? Hell no. Was it bad? Ehhhhhhhhhh....lot of complains people have already raised and no real need to re-hash? Is it deserving of all the vitriol and venom it's getting in this thread? No. Is it deserving of the knob polishing either? Absolutely not. Was it the worst Star Wars film? Not likely. Was it the best? Not a chance.

[SaintRidley]

Saw it. Still need to let it settle before I can rank it, but I'd put it pretty high, I think. Probably 2 or 3.

I loved what the movie had to say about failure, about heroism and leadership, about what it means to be a jedi, and most importantly about legends: they're not accurate, but we need to believe in them.

Vice Admiral Holdo gets my props for the best scene in all of Star Wars for me with that epic final sacrifice, and for being my favorite character of this movie, followed by trollish Jedi Master Luke.

[Malifice]

Why is nobody talking about Akbar.

[Razade]

Why is nobody talking about Akbar.

Because he was one screen for maybe six seconds, unmentioned until after he left and made no actual effect on the movie whatsover. The movie made literally one mention of him. Why should anyone, anyone, be bothered to give more than that?

[Malifice]

2. They should have been swarmed with TIEs. There are 6 Star Destroyers (and another 2 docked in the Supremacy) which have a grand total of 16 Wings of TIE fighters between them. Now, if a Wing means the same that it did for the Galactic Empire (and i have no reason to assume it doesnt) that is a grand total of 1152 TIE Fighters, as one wing is 6 squadrons and a squadron is 12 fighters. Considering the damage Kylo and his two wingmen did by themselves, the TIEs should have annihilated the Rebels.

The movie tried to explain that in the first scene. Basically it's because Hux is totally incompetent.

It takes him five minutes to order the Tie fighters to be scrambled when Poe's hovering in front of the dreadnought.

Even the dreadnought commander comments on this when he finally dispatches the fighters saying 'About time - you should've ordered that five minutes ago!'

He's totally useless and has a hard on for capital ships. The movie went to some pains to show this.

I genuinely don't think it occurred to him to dispatch fighters, or he simply disregarded the thought.