The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

[Peelee]

Spoiler: The Big Plot Point

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Rey’s parents are nobodies, but they made that a big plot point!

Rey’s search for her parents was made explicitly called out in wink at the fan speculation. Kylo says she looks for her parents in Han, in Luke, but in fact its nobody. Instead Kylo volunteers to be her surrogate father. All we are missing is the line, “Rey I can be your father.”

This involved something of a fake out that makes the ultimate revelation feel false to me. Kylo Ren says he saw Rey’s parents, at first like this is very meaningful. Then he says they were nobodies in an argument that Rey should join him since she otherwise “has no place in the narrative.”

The whole line of talk is so manipulative, and the ultimate answer is obvious enough anyone in that universe knowing Rey’s background could have guessed it, I don’t feel like we can trust it.

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I thought that whole scene was great, though I don't think the guard fight was a bit much; I get they wanted to show them being able to work together and bond a bit before that speech, but at the same time it seemed a bit superfluous. Have you ever seen An Evening with Kevin Smith? It reminded me of Peter Jackson insisting there had to be a fight scene every ten minutes.

[Blackhawk748]

If anyone's interested , the Rotten Tomatoes reviews are incoming. Strangely, there is a great discrepancy between the professional reviewers and the audience. The professional reviewers give it a 93% rating -- the audience, only 62%.

I no longer find that strange. Im more and more convinced that "Professional" reviewers are just paid off by the large Studios to give them good ratings. Then the fans go and say "Wow, that was nowhere near as good as i was led to believe". This makes it all the worse when a legitimately good movie comes out, it can easily get brushed aside as "Corporate Hype"

[Scowling Dragon]

I no longer find that strange. Im more and more convinced that "Professional" reviewers are just paid off by the large Studios to give them good ratings. Then the fans go and say "Wow, that was nowhere near as good as i was led to believe". This makes it all the worse when a legitimately good movie comes out, it can easily get brushed aside as "Corporate Hype"

They don't get paid off but Marketting revenue comes from them.
You say bad things about Disney so don't expect to get a new screening or preferential treatment no more.

[Tyndmyr]

There were a lot of parts I loved, and a lot of parts I hated. My main complaint is they a lot of things that happen seem like they were due to nothing more than the writer or director saying, "this would be cool," without putting any additional thought into it. The movie was a rollercoaster for me; there highs were very high, but the lows were incredibly low. If one person said it was fantastic and one said it was horrendous, I could easily see where both are coming from.

I will say that there was one thing that made me incredibly happy:

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Rey's parents are nobodies. Thank god for that. I can't believe I called it.

And one last thing that I don't consider a spoiler, but some may...

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Poe is so damn annoying. There is very little redeeming about his character. I don't see why they wanted him to have so much focus. The actor may be great, but the character sucks.

Saw it last night. Agreed that this movie clocks in a shade under Episode 7. I found Ep 7 to be mostly entertaining, but too close to ANH, and the whole first order thing was a bit baffling. On the whole, mediocre. This was a shade lower.

For those interested, it was not entirely a remake of Empire, though again, you can definitely recognize elements that are absolutely from Empire, occasionally almost shot for shot.

Detailed rant below:

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Problems I had with the film.
1. Flying magical jedi space jesus.
2. That the above is Leia. This was literally the strangest, dumbest thing they could have done. The entire sequence was unnecessary, sets up nothing, and was freaking strange.
3. We spend like an hour with the movie fanboying over Luke Skywalker, and getting him to leave the island. He doesn't leave the island.
4. The entire plot could have been replaced with a reasonable thirty second conversation between people on the same team with nothing better to do, and basically everyone would be alive. Everyone prefers to be a smarmy **** instead of reasonably addressing problems.
5. The above is referring to the Rebels. I'd be okay with the Imperials being smarmy *****.
6. There is a complete lack of consistency. As one example, you can, on screen, see nearly all the speeders destroyed, and then all but one turn back. It's a plot point. It's very clear, and they take great pains to show this. That one is then intercepted by another one coming from ahead of it. This is not even vaguely reasonable given what we are shown.
7. The Rebellion is now like twelve people. So much for Space Opera.
8. Rey's parents, despite being teased endlessly, never appear, and are simply said to be nobodys. Again. WHY BRING ALL THIS UP TO BEGIN WITH? It's a stupid mystery with no payoff.
9. Lightspeed physics in the new movies just works at the speed of plot. Interdiction cruisers no longer exist, spacegas works in very finite, fixed ways that make no sense. And suicide bombing is awesome. And shockingly effect, to the point where you wonder why nobody has ever done this before. And totally respected. Until ten minutes later, when it's morally unacceptable.
10. Janitor becomes secret agent/fighter pilot in approximately ten minutes with no training. In fairness, this is still a less ludicrous power jump than Rey demonstrates.
11. They enumerate the number of transports, and take pains to show them all, with many exploding. Every time they cut back to it, there are more transports there to be exploded. It's sorta at ol-cowboy-movie-six-shooter levels of dumb.
12. The Rebels built a base, and forgot it was there, until someone we've never seen before remembers it in the third act. Fortunately, it was in exactly the right place for the newly limited spacegas to get them to. Also, they don't remember that it has a second door. Despite the doors being goddamned huge. And the second door being directly in LOS to the first door. They literally failed at looking across a room.
13. Luke materializes a heretofore unknown set of dice as a meaningful present for Leia, across half a galaxy, solely to fake out the audience.
14. Evil BB8 functions as the Captain Phasma of this movie, appearing solely for the plot-essential reason of providing merchandising for the holiday season.
15. Endless Deus Ex Machinas. Look, it's star wars, I expect the storm troopers to always miss, and the heroes to luckily happen onto exactly the right circumstances to do the heroic thing. That's fine. A giant fireball around non-jedi heroes, killing the like, hundred people around them, but leaving them entirely unharmed, is maybe a bit much. It's just endless plot armor. Oh look, suddenly there's an elevator here for no reason whatsoever, when it didn't exist a second previously. Probably also created by the explosion.
16. Lightsaber-whips.
17. So, the guys in red, right? Cool fight scene, sure. But are they the emperor's guard, or the knights of Ren? Why do they draw their weapons on Snoke when he threatens Kylo, but then later, in the next Snoke/Kylo conflict, side with Snoke? If they are not the Knights of Ren, who the crap is? Do people continue to exist, or have motivations? Who knows?
18. The power curve of a single X-wing being a match for a ridiculously large even-bigger-star-destroyer is kind of insane. They're not even bothering with weak spots anymore, it's just...why are there all these increasingly large superweapons, if they're inferior to smaller ships straight up?

Things others disliked that I had no issue with
1. Porgs. The space penguins are cute and amusing, and if a movie sucks in other ways, jokes do help it become a lot more watchable.

[Peelee]

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14. Evil BB8 functions as the Captain Phasma of this movie, appearing solely for the plot-essential reason of providing merchandising for the holiday season.

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Let's be fair here, Captain Phasma is still the Captain Phasma of his movie. Doesn't do anything, gets dispatched relatively quickly.

Besides, there's also the Executioner Stormtroopers, who get even less screen time than BB-8E (the E is for Evil, clearly. They would have to make things too complicated for people).

[Tyndmyr]

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Let's be fair here, Captain Phasma is still the Captain Phasma of his movie. Doesn't do anything, gets dispatched relatively quickly.

Besides, there's also the Executioner Stormtroopers, who get even less screen time than BB-8E (the E is for Evil, clearly. They would have to make things too complicated for people).

That's fair.

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Captain Phasma is still a named character for no real plot purpose I can see. If she were replaced by literally any other stormtrooper, I dunno what would be different.

[Peelee]

That's fair.

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Captain Phasma is still a named character for no real plot purpose I can see. If she were replaced by literally any other stormtrooper, I dunno what would be different.

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I wholly agree. And yet, I still like her better than Poe now. He went from Mary Sue in the first movie to I'm-Entitled-To-Everything in the new one. Which, as you pointed out, isn't even necessary since the fleet is basically on cruise control and there's no reason whatsoever for the plan to be need-to-know.

[Durkoala]

If anyone's interested , the Rotten Tomatoes reviews are incoming. Strangely, there is a great discrepancy between the professional reviewers and the audience. The professional reviewers give it a 93% rating -- the audience, only 62%.

ETA: Corsair14, if you have a spoiler to share, I suggest you put it in a spoiler block. It's left bracket, followed by spoiler, followed by right bracket. You end it at the bottom with [ /spoiler ]

Like this:

[ spoiler ]
Trim out the spaces in the boxes to get ...

[ /spoiler]

And it looks like this:

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And it looks like this:

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Also, if you're using the browser version of the site, there's a button marked 'spoil' at the end of the bottom row of tooltips which does the same thing.

----------------

I'm afraid I've not seen the movie but I have a request?
The adaption of one of my favourite books was meant to have a trailer in the previews, but I heard that it was taken out of some countries. There's been no news as to whether this is a global thing, so can anybody tell me if you noticed a trailer for Mortal Engines? And if it looked any good?

[Peelee]

I'm afraid I've not seen the movie but I have a request?
The adaption of one of my favourite books was meant to have a trailer in the previews, but I heard that it was taken out of some countries. There's been no news as to whether this is a global thing, so can anybody tell me if you noticed a trailer for Mortal Engines? And if it looked any good?

Not at the theater I saw it at, I don't think. Sorry.

[Cikomyr]

Not at the theater I saw it at, I don't think. Sorry.

Awwww man, it disnt look good? :smallbigfrown:

[kyoryu]

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I'm really kind of bothered that a major theme of a Star Wars movie is "shut up, follow orders, and don't be heroic."

[Corsair14]

It had a couple elements of Empire but wasn't a direct remake like TFA. It had a similar dark tone, rebels on the run kind of thing but other than that not really that similar. So much better than TFA. Not Rogue 1 or Empire good but better than any of the prequals. Still lacks for a believable 1st Order or realistic villains.

For the record, knowing producers in the movie business who have made Hollywood movies, professional critics are very much paid off, especially to pan something, even more so if the right hands in the upper levels aren't properly greased.

[Anonymouswizard]

Well I saw it earlier today.

What I liked:

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-The design of the 'capital' ships, didn't notice the shorter bridges on the SD in TFA and the rebel cruiser looks like something designed for space.
-The reveal of Rey's parents.
-The subtle nods at Luke not really being there.
-Rey trying to act as a Mary Sue and failing.
-Kylo's continual incompetence at anything that isn't being a physical threat.
-The fact that the Admiral's plan fails because Poe refused to believe she had one.

What I dislikes:

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-Floaty Leia.
-Snoke being killed off after the buildup. It was a fun scene.
-The design of the bombers. I'd been reading the first book in the Void Trilogy on the bus, and the poor comparitive spaceship design sticks out.
-Obviously not ending. I dislike the 'what will happen now' kind of cliffhanger.
-The entire 'we're ending the Jedi? No, lol' and the suggestion of there being a major revelation that wasn't there.
-It felt like it went from 'Return of the Jedi's climax, but different', to the opening of The Empire Strikes back.

In all I enjoyed watching it, but I didn't like it. I feel like I was promised a lot that they didn't deliver.

[EndlessWrath]

I genuinely enjoyed the film. The highs were really high and the lows took me pretty low. There’s a lot I had problem with in the film, and that list I’m sure I could make grow via nitpicking, but there are moments where I am awed. Moments truly mystical for but the briefest of moments and I am transported back into the fantasy, and I don’t have to think about the meta problems with the film.
Some specific thoughts with the film: (warning there are spoilers. Pretty big ones)

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1.This movie was well done as a character study for Luke. Mark Hamil did an excellent job portraying Luke. My initial take on the film (mind you 3am mindset) was that the character work the film did well involved a series of juxtapositions between characters to let the audience see how the characters mirror each other and how they diverge. Rey/Kylo is one juxtaposition. Finn/Rose is another. Through Rey/Kylo we get several perspectives on Luke that lead to a depth in his character. Mainly I just enjoyed seeing Luke on screen and seeing more development for him.
2. It looks like Finn may transition from the Holy Fool character to something more in the next film. The Rose/Finn juxtaposition starts with 2 characters who are pulled into this not of their own volition but rather by other people convincing them to be while they are starry eyed. They sort of blunder through a haphazard adventure that is rather underwhelming, but it serves to continue to mirror the characters. By the end Rose has to sacrifice herself for her friend who she plants a small kiss on and tries to teach him her epiphany about saving what we love versus killing what we hate... cheesy? Sure. But it’s at this moment Finn, who has spent now the better part of 2 movies concerned about nothing except Rey, to realize what he’s missed. This is a guy whose love for Rey (whether platonic, familial, or romantic doesn’t matter) has caused him to be obsessed with helping her. He helps the resistance, why? Cause Rey convinced him to. He has to go to starkiller base to save Rey. He wakes up? Where’s Rey. He has to leave with the tracker so Rey can come back to him safely since the resistance is doomed. He has to save the fleet in case Rey comes back. It’s not until later in the film where he starts becoming a rebel in his own right and starts thinking outside that framework and with Rose’s epiphany I feel this will be cemented as character growth.
3. The Sacrifical jump to light speed was beautifully done, and as dumb as some of the external factors involved where, that alone left our crowded theater so flabbergasted that it was silent.
4. Without delving much into it, I like the mysticism of the force and how well it was portrayed. I may not like the choices done with it all the time, but I have 0 objections with how it was employed. Lightning bolt from yoda Ghost? Awesome. Used to show how trivial Jedi texts were, not so. Luke’s End lf the movie transubstantiation (for lack of a better word) great! Luke’s use of it in the plot as a means of giving us hope he’ll stay alive just to go “gotcha” not so much. I don’t mind so much the using the force to return to the ship, but rather how it was handled and by who. I think I would have liked it better if she reacted and pulled herself into safely as a result of the explosion rather than waking up in space and doing so all angel like.
5. There has been a trend in marvel films that I have noticed, where we built up tension for villains for a moment in the film and then use slap stick to completely release all tension, thus defusing any sort of intimidation that character had. We start the film with general hux leading out his first order fleet that is about to destroy any RESISTANCE. Literally the first scene involves this fanatical, sadistic, and ruthless individual being taken down a peg by very out of place joke with smarmy Poe Damron. I like Poe. I think Poe is a well established character. Snarky hot shot pilot of the resistance who may occasionally need to be humbled. Poe is very Han Solo-esque. However, any sort of tension that scene was building is now gone so the emotional impact that I would feel just seems wasted. Again later on we see Snoke dragging the general across the floor like a ragdoll. This is supposed to show how powerful with the force Snoke is, but all it really does is weaken Hux as a character. If we want to show how powerful the supreme leader is why not force choke him from afar. No he has to arbitrarily drag him and then shift perspective from hologram to yell at him and demean him as a character. In the next scene, the tension between Hux and Snoke is diffused cause it’s all part of the plan Hux has which he apparently didn’t fill his boss on till after he was humiliated. This is done so supreme leader joke is able to humiliate and demean Kylo Ren. At least the tension between Snoke and Kylo remains for half the film, but it would have been better (I think) to stoke that fire episode 8 and resolve it episode 9. Back to Hux. This guy is the second in command of all the first order forces and he is a joke. There’s a moment where I have hope, after Snoke dies, that Hux may just become a full fledge villain, that maybe just maybe he’ll step into his own. Kylo chokes him and coerces him to submit, there is good tension there. Then Kylo flings his second in command into a wall for questioning him. All tension gone. Officers with concussions tend not to lead well. Officers with vendetta’s tend to betray you when you are most vulnerable... say duking it out with Luke Skywalker less than 1000ft from 15 AT-ST wannabes you now are not in direct control over? Hux is an absolute joke and it is incredibly frustrating.
6. The casino was... terrible. It was preachy, it was jarring, and it was a dumb concept. The movie would have been served better with Poe, Finn, and Rose flying into the ship via some daring gambit and having Rose crack the codes.
7. Merchandising. BB-9, Phasma, the Resistance ring, the resistance bomber, the juggernaut and snoke’s own special ship, the nameless and shallow praetorian Guard, light saber dual sabres, light saber whips, light saber twin swords, stormtrooper executioners, saltspeeders, Poros. All of these things are Ewoks.
8. Salt-Speeders “The rust buckets”. What exactly was the plan here? Did they have weapons on them or were they planning another suicide run of just crashing whatever they can into that cannon. If the speeders had weapons why didn’t they get used? If not why take the speeders? Were you planning a 13-person assault on the cannon? With what. Seems poorly planned. Much like ...
9... the plot. Scene to scene the movie was more or less fine. The general plot to the film itself was very dumb. The first order couldn’t send a ship to intercept the resistance? Perhaps jump, and then jump again in front of them pinning them per say? Or are we to believe there are no other First Order ships available for such a tactic? “We will just keep chasing you indefinitely till your supplies run out! That is our plan!” This concept is incredibly foolish. Slightly better with the “we’re going to an old base that we can regroup, we’ll dump the survivors and use the ship as a big distraction to keep you safe” plan being revealed, and then immediately worse with the 20 minutes of shooting transports. This culminates to what the heroes do in the film being invariably pointless (with the exception of Luke and maybe chewey).
Rey: turns Kylo long enough to kill Snoke and then he flips back.
Finn and Rose end up dooming the resistance. Had they not left there would be no code breaker to rat them out and therefore no transports killed. They didn’t even make an opening for the resistance to leave. If finn didn’t try to sacrifice himself, Rose would not be so badly injured/dead. Accomplishments? Plot wise: killing off the majority of the resistance. Finn and Rose may have some character growth so at least that’s a plus.
Poe fails to do anything throughout the film (except again, character growth) by leading a bunch of awkward ships to ruin, performing a failed mutiny, having the failed plan to jump, and then proceeds to fail defending the base with some makeshift speeder plan. His success comes in his (hopeful) humbling and maturing as a leader to look after his people more... and getting the last however many support specialists he could onto the falcon.

[Anonymouswizard]

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9... the plot. Scene to scene the movie was more or less fine. The general plot to the film itself was very dumb. The first order couldn’t send a ship to intercept the resistance? Perhaps jump, and then jump again in front of them pinning them per say? Or are we to believe there are no other First Order ships available for such a tactic? “We will just keep chasing you indefinitely till your supplies run out! That is our plan!” This concept is incredibly foolish. Slightly better with the “we’re going to an old base that we can regroup, we’ll dump the survivors and use the ship as a big distraction to keep you safe” plan being revealed, and then immediately worse with the 20 minutes of shooting transports. This culminates to what the heroes do in the film being invariably pointless (with the exception of Luke and maybe chewey).
Rey: turns Kylo long enough to kill Snoke and then he flips back.
Finn and Rose end up dooming the resistance. Had they not left there would be no code breaker to rat them out and therefore no transports killed. They didn’t even make an opening for the resistance to leave. If finn didn’t try to sacrifice himself, Rose would not be so badly injured/dead. Accomplishments? Plot wise: killing off the majority of the resistance. Finn and Rose may have some character growth so at least that’s a plus.
Poe fails to do anything throughout the film (except again, character growth) by leading a bunch of awkward ships to ruin, performing a failed mutiny, having the failed plan to jump, and then proceeds to fail defending the base with some makeshift speeder plan. His success comes in his (hopeful) humbling and maturing as a leader to look after his people more... and getting the last however many support specialists he could onto the falcon.

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Minor note, the First Order was easily able to outlast the Rebel ships and it would be incredibly difficult to predict where their ships would jump out as space is big. Conversely by waiting for them to jump they can track them and leave hyperspace within weapon range, and it was shown that they were right to believe that it would be hard to shut off the tracker by the hoops that Finn and Rose had to jump through to nearly do it and then get easily caught on their way in.

I didn't see Rey turning Kylo, I saw him falling to the Dark Side and doing a Sith on his master.

Completely agreeing on Finn, Rose, and Poe though.

[Hatu]

I'm afraid I've not seen the movie but I have a request?
The adaption of one of my favourite books was meant to have a trailer in the previews, but I heard that it was taken out of some countries. There's been no news as to whether this is a global thing, so can anybody tell me if you noticed a trailer for Mortal Engines? And if it looked any good?

Yes, they did have the Mortal Engines trailer before my showing.

It was a very trailery trailer, so I can't speak to how good the movie will be. It's a smaller city running from London, with a lot of camera focus on a girl with red scarf in the smaller city. So presumably it's the scene at the beginning of the book where London catches Salthook.

The visuals were fine, the voiceover summarizing London as a traction city (Hester's I think) was okay. It was listed as a Peter Jackson film so it might well be a bloated 3 hour endeavor, but the source material could actually play to his strengths. Alas, that's all I can say.

-H

EDIT:

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Minor note, the First Order was easily able to outlast the Rebel ships and it would be incredibly difficult to predict where their ships would jump out as space is big. Conversely by waiting for them to jump they can track them and leave hyperspace within weapon range, and it was shown that they were right to believe that it would be hard to shut off the tracker by the hoops that Finn and Rose had to jump through to nearly do it and then get easily caught on their way in.

I didn't see Rey turning Kylo, I saw him falling to the Dark Side and doing a Sith on his master.

Completely agreeing on Finn, Rose, and Poe though.

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I don't think the idea was jumping to the Rebels' Resistance's next hyperspace jump. The idea was jumping part of the FO fleet in front of the Resistance fleet in real space; basically, cut them off and force them to fight one force or the other.

Given how outnumbered the good guys were, you'd think that would be possible. But then I'd also expect the ship they use to lead an assault on the base would be physically capable of shooting down a snub fighter. What do I know.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: My thoughts, spoilers within

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Snoke getting offed for Kylo Ren to take his place is interesting. I like it. its a good moment where Kylo talks about erasing the past......while doing the most traditional of all Sith traditions: killing your mentor to prove your stronger. Ultimately, he is just repeating history.

The part where Luke reveals that he was never there at all and it was all an astral projection, I was in awe. they are really doing better things with the Force now. making it feel as powerful and mystical as it should.

while Yoda blasting the texts himself is something I did not expect, but hey I guess this is a film all about putting the past behind you and moving onto new things. as well as SHOWING Jedi values rather than trying to explain them by saying she already knows what Jedi are about. just have your character do good acts as they should and you can extrapolate what those values are from what they attempt to do.

we get character development for Poe, trying to make him a true leader rather than just a reckless fighter with charisma. hopefully it worked?

while the moment where Luke explains about how the Force connects all things, I think was well done. he is acknowledging that the Force is bigger than him or any Jedi, as well as his part where he explains that the Jedi of the past were hypocritical and prideful, knowing that he is hypocritical for thinking to kill Ben.

themes of sacrifice for a greater good, but also that doing good is more than just about being a hero and taking it all upon yourself. hm.

I liked it. did a few things different.

[Scowling Dragon]

I will say one thing that really bothered me.

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I will NEVER see that as a positive. Outside the fact that the Movie wants it both ways (Forget the past but buy our action figures, forget the past but preserve the scrolls)

Forgetting the past is a fantastic way to repeat it. The movie extolling IGNORANCE as a virtue was dowrnight DISGUSTING.

Yoda was just a petty **** the way he acted to luke. The guy is ****ing miserable and too old for being ****ed with, and Yoda blowing up the Jedi scrolls instead of saying "Rey has them, help them out!" made him needlessly cruel in my mind.

The OT was literally all about how these people are obsessed with the now and only caring about whats directly in front of them.. Forget the past, focus on the now and just getting buy. The empire sees the Force as a Joke, and that nothing can challenge their supramacy with the Deathstar, so don't even bother.

People live their lives not realising that the government really IS ruled by an evil cult of mages that manipulate the very fates themselves, because they FORGET THE PAST.

But Disney is all about buy our toys, and forget the past because if you don't you will realise what kind of disservice we did to the franchise and how lazy, recycled, and stale our ideas are. Don't tell me to forget the past Disney when your movies are all about Nostalgia pandering and hollow without it.

[hamishspence]

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13. Luke materializes a heretofore unknown set of dice as a meaningful present for Leia, across half a galaxy, solely to fake out the audience.

Actually, if you look closely in the OT (A New Hope):

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those dice are visible in the Falcon's cockpit - though back then, they had "regular" numbers. The unusual symbols seen in TLJ are, I think, Aurebesh numerals.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Han%27s_dice

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aurebesh

[EndlessWrath]

Spoiler: My thoughts, spoilers within

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Snoke getting offed for Kylo Ren to take his place is interesting. I like it. its a good moment where Kylo talks about erasing the past......while doing the most traditional of all Sith traditions: killing your mentor to prove your stronger. Ultimately, he is just repeating history.

The part where Luke reveals that he was never there at all and it was all an astral projection, I was in awe. they are really doing better things with the Force now. making it feel as powerful and mystical as it should.

while Yoda blasting the texts himself is something I did not expect, but hey I guess this is a film all about putting the past behind you and moving onto new things. as well as SHOWING Jedi values rather than trying to explain them by saying she already knows what Jedi are about. just have your character do good acts as they should and you can extrapolate what those values are from what they attempt to do.

we get character development for Poe, trying to make him a true leader rather than just a reckless fighter with charisma. hopefully it worked?

while the moment where Luke explains about how the Force connects all things, I think was well done. he is acknowledging that the Force is bigger than him or any Jedi, as well as his part where he explains that the Jedi of the past were hypocritical and prideful, knowing that he is hypocritical for thinking to kill Ben.

themes of sacrifice for a greater good, but also that doing good is more than just about being a hero and taking it all upon yourself. hm.

I liked it. did a few things different.

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I agree with everything in bold wholeheartedly. As for Kylo, I appreciate that perspective and it’s something I didn’t consider beforehand. I was very frustrated about the potential Snoke/Kylo tension and the build up for Snoke to be a character just to be offed and be otherwise unimportant now.

The Yoda Force ghost destroying the Jedi relics felt very in place, and I enjoyed that scene when the cgi was basing off puppet yoda and not oddly green yoda CG yoda. As a whole it’s a better and more fitting scene for their interaction. That scene gets props from me..
Appreciate the input!

[Future Sword]

All that spoilered stuff is all well and good, but I'm wondering about the important things:

Who does lightsabers at whom, how frequently, and what sort of lightsabers do they use? I loved Kylo's dumbass crossguard in the last movie, and I expect great things in this one.

Are there fun new Force powers? Maybe some snazzy new trick that turns the user into a giant for zero tactical advantage?

How many new goofy-looking spaceships are there? Is there a new X-Wing painted all red so you know it's faster?

These are the hard-hitting questions.

[Lord Raziere]

All that spoilered stuff is all well and good, but I'm wondering about the important things:

Who does lightsabers at whom, how frequently, and what sort of lightsabers do they use? I loved Kylo's dumbass crossguard in the last movie, and I expect great things in this one.

Are there fun new Force powers? Maybe some snazzy new trick that turns the user into a giant for zero tactical advantage?

How many new goofy-looking spaceships are there? Is there a new X-Wing painted all red so you know it's faster?

These are the hard-hitting questions.

1. no new lightsabers, and all the same people as before.

2. Yes there is a new force power. its some sort of astral projection thing and people do clever things with it. its not a giant though.

3. There is a junky ship that skates on salt. does that count?

[Durkoala]

Yes, they did have the Mortal Engines trailer before my showing.

It was a very trailery trailer, so I can't speak to how good the movie will be. It's a smaller city running from London, with a lot of camera focus on a girl with red scarf in the smaller city. So presumably it's the scene at the beginning of the book where London catches Salthook.

The visuals were fine, the voiceover summarizing London as a traction city (Hester's I think) was okay. It was listed as a Peter Jackson film so it might well be a bloated 3 hour endeavor, but the source material could actually play to his strengths. Alas, that's all I can say.

-H

YES.

I was wondering if it had been taken away or been a hoax. I'm so glad to hear it's not.
Predator Cities is definitely a setting and story that could deal with a bit of bloat, although I hope that Stalkers don't get the elf treatment.

[Erys]

I will say one thing that really bothered me.

Spoiler: Forgetting the past

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I will NEVER see that as a positive. Outside the fact that the Movie wants it both ways (Forget the past but buy our action figures, forget the past but preserve the scrolls)

Forgetting the past is a fantastic way to repeat it. The movie extolling IGNORANCE as a virtue was dowrnight DISGUSTING.

Yoda was just a petty **** the way he acted to luke. The guy is ****ing miserable and too old for being ****ed with, and Yoda blowing up the Jedi scrolls instead of saying "Rey has them, help them out!" made him needlessly cruel in my mind.

The OT was literally all about how these people are obsessed with the now and only caring about whats directly in front of them.. Forget the past, focus on the now and just getting buy. The empire sees the Force as a Joke, and that nothing can challenge their supramacy with the Deathstar, so don't even bother.

People live their lives not realising that the government really IS ruled by an evil cult of mages that manipulate the very fates themselves, because they FORGET THE PAST.

But Disney is all about buy our toys, and forget the past because if you don't you will realise what kind of disservice we did to the franchise and how lazy, recycled, and stale our ideas are. Don't tell me to forget the past Disney when your movies are all about Nostalgia pandering and hollow without it.

Disney is evil.

Subtle, but evil.

[EndlessWrath]

All that spoilered stuff is all well and good, but I'm wondering about the important things:

Who does lightsabers at whom, how frequently, and what sort of lightsabers do they use? I loved Kylo's dumbass crossguard in the last movie, and I expect great things in this one.

Are there fun new Force powers? Maybe some snazzy new trick that turns the user into a giant for zero tactical advantage?

How many new goofy-looking spaceships are there? Is there a new X-Wing painted all red so you know it's faster?

These are the hard-hitting questions.

There are snazzy new weapons that are kinda light sabers but not? Look up Praetorian Guard on an image search if you want to see it.
There is a lot of exploration of the force including some pretty big things.

Spoiler

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this includes:
-tossing subordinates around like rag dolls from afar (as in on another ship that isn’t around far).
-Angst filled talking with each other cause the force brings us together.
-Astral Projection and shadow conjuration involving an illusory set of tangible dice.
-force weather.
-chopping stones in half and hassling caretakers.
- “I’ll try spinning” in a cooler looking ship.

Thirdly: there’s a lot of old things being rehashed and a few new ships. There’s a few LEGO sets involving the new ships in addition to some models from fantasyflight games’ X-Wing miniatures game. Mainly the new ships are the TIE silencer and the resistance bomber. There’s also a new ATST gorilla looking model and a sand speeder thing.

[hamishspence]

2. Yes there is a new force power. its some sort of astral projection thing and people do clever things with it. its not a giant though.

Legends did it first, in Dark Empire. A good rule of thumb - almost anything the newcanon has done, Legends has done, at least in some small way, first.

[Anonymouswizard]

Spoiler

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I don't think the idea was jumping to the Rebels' Resistance's next hyperspace jump. The idea was jumping part of the FO fleet in front of the Resistance fleet in real space; basically, cut them off and force them to fight one force or the other.

Given how outnumbered the good guys were, you'd think that would be possible. But then I'd also expect the ship they use to lead an assault on the base would be physically capable of shooting down a snub fighter. What do I know.

Oh sure, that makes sense.

Spoiler

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I notice the ship didn't really have point defence weapons, but even if it did they essentially let Poe get into 'too close to reasonably target' range before they tried to fire on him. It's also firmly established that they should have had fighter support deployed to deal with this, and once they have fighters at the ready they are able to take out most of the attacking force without any capital ship weapons firing. But yes, it's a mjor oversight especially as fighters punch far above their weight in the SW universe, they should have deployed a bunch of TIEs to at least harrass and maybe destroy the transports on the way up, considering their goal.

Legends did it first, in Dark Empire. A good rule of thumb - almost anything the newcanon has done, Legends has done, at least in some small way, first.

Another good rule of thumb, Legends probably did it better at least once. The First Order is a worse version of Thrawn's Imperial Remnant, the IR used the fact that you can't set up a new state overnight to retain enough industrial and military might to realistically be able to challenge (and, after they agree to peace with them, outlast) The Republic, the FO just seems to be the Empire 2.0 complete with having the largest military in the galaxy and a bunch of new superweapons.

[Reddish Mage]

I will say one thing that really bothered me.

Spoiler: Forgetting the past

Show

I will NEVER see that as a positive. Outside the fact that the Movie wants it both ways (Forget the past but buy our action figures, forget the past but preserve the scrolls)

Forgetting the past is a fantastic way to repeat it. The movie extolling IGNORANCE as a virtue was dowrnight DISGUSTING.

The OT was literally all about how these people are obsessed with the now and only caring about whats directly in front of them.. Forget the past, focus on the now and just getting buy. The empire sees the Force as a Joke, and that nothing can challenge their supramacy with the Deathstar, so don't even bother.

People live their lives not realising that the government really IS ruled by an evil cult of mages that manipulate the very fates themselves, because they FORGET THE PAST.

This cannot be overstated. The point being made here is reprehensible. The idea is that knowledge should be destroyed because its unnecessary.

Spoiler: Ignorance is Knowledge

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Yoda says there is nothing in the books that are not already in Rey’s heart. We see Rey wield a lightsaber like a pro at the rock, using several traditional Jedi forms (notice she uses overhand, under hand, reverse-hand) so she might literally have all the technical knowledge.

Apparently, she also has all the spiritual knowledge to the point she doesn’t need written reinforcement (nor will anyone else in the future).

Luke was going to destroy the tree because he thought there was something dangerous about the original Jedi texts. Yoda destroys it to show Luke the texts are redundant.

All of this turns out to be a fake out. Rey took the texts aboard the Millennium Falcon.

The original Jedi texts are the equivalent of Jedi Bible or Dao De Jing. Since these are the Jedi, they probably also include technical advice like how to levitate and astral project oneself lightyears away. Destroying these things as a symbolic break with the past is at best a misguided message. Destroying them, as Yoda did, after denigrating the texts as “page turners they are not” is profane.

Spoiler

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I agree with everything in bold wholeheartedly. As for Kylo, I appreciate that perspective and it’s something I didn’t consider beforehand. I was very frustrated about the potential Snoke/Kylo tension and the build up for Snoke to be a character just to be offed and be otherwise unimportant now.

The Yoda Force ghost destroying the Jedi relics felt very in place, and I enjoyed that scene when the cgi was basing off puppet yoda and not oddly green yoda CG yoda. As a whole it’s a better and more fitting scene for their interaction. That scene gets props from me.

Perhaps you can help me.

Spoiler: Snoke Kylo Hux

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To me Snoke was built up to be this enormously significant and mysterious Dark Side figure. Killing him so abruptly releases all that tension. Scattered applause happened in my theater at the scene and at first I thought they were going somewhere interesting with this scene. Ultimately, though, Kylo simply replacing Snoke as Supreme Leader is simply a disappointment.

Kylo still seems like the same man conflicted man-child as before. His control over Hux, as it was artfully put above, just diminishes Hux as a character, I just don’t see the appeal of Kylo as a villain, not before, and certainly not now.

This appears to be good for a momentary surprise, but after the too long fight scene and Kylo’s ascension it seems the scene itself is wasted potential

Spoiler: Burning as a meaningful scene

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I get that it feels meaningful to you. Can you elaborate beyond the aesthetics of the scene?

Burning things as a symbolic break with the past has long been a trope and a moment of spiritual significance. I agree it was aesthetically and dramatically a good burning with the right back and forth and music playing. What disturbed me is what the burning meant both in general and to the story itself.

Similarly, Snoke-death scene was very well done, but ultimately the scene diminishes Snoke, diminishes Hux, and does nothing to put Kylo Ren in a place where he is prepared to be a Supreme Leader.

Both acts ultimately remove two of the biggest plot elements left from Episode VII by essentially rendering the two most mysterious and mystical elements of these movies, Snoke and the Original Jedi Temple, meaningless.

[Scowling Dragon]

And again this is just more personal distaste:

Spoiler: On the burning

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I find this to be a very modern attitude (Also paradoxically universal), and I hate to see it pervade the Star Wars:
The Past Was Wrong so there is NOTHING to learn from it forget about it we are so enlightened.
Well even if it was, only by learning how the people in the past made wrong conclusions can we avoid a similar mindset. Heck why not KEEP the baby and throw out the bathwater? Why can't we benefit from different styles of opposing viewpoints?

As insulting as it is that Jedi are apparently all crap and wrong (Buy Rey Toys, forget the Past toys), how the heck will Rey avoid making all the same mistakes without any form of Guidance? Because shes just that goddam great?

And I get it that she saved the scrolls, but Yoda was such a **** to poor Luke. He ran into the fire to save them.

On Rey now:

Spoiler: Any more Defenses For her?

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So yeah, can they make her ANY better now? So I get that her parents don't matter, but it feels like the past movies owed us a debt of explaining why Rey is so amazing, and instead of paying it off, they sunk the ship containing the debtors.

The end result is that she is this amazing at everything person because she is and so shut up. Even if you say that past Jedi where as amazing as her (Highly questionable), that doesn't make her character arc any better.

[Frozen_Feet]

Oh man are you getting it backwards.

Spoiler: Let the Past Die

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Firstly, who is most keen on repeating this? Kylo Ren. Who is ultimately rejected by both Rey and Luke. Luke flatly says to him that neither the Resistance nor the Jedi are over with.

Second, "letting the past die" =/= "let's forget about the past". Kylo Ren is not using it in that sense, he literally means to destroy the old guard so that new people like him can become movers and shakers in the universe. Yoda certainly didn't mean that either, because he told Luke that failure's often the greatest teacher. Yoda said to Luke to go out and rise above his failures. Yoda was essentially telling Luke to go out and teach Rey, not despite his previous failures, but because his previous failures can guide him to a better outcome.

Destroying the dead tree was not symbolic of destroying the past and its lessons. Luke thought it was and Luke went there to destroy the past, and it was Luke who was conflicted about it and shocked when Yoda scorned the Scripture. Yoda didn't stop Luke and in fact gave him a helping hand because Yoda knew there was nothing of importance there. Later it's hinted Rey took the scriptures, but that doesn't detract from the message! It just means Yoda's message was both figurative and literal: "stop crying over dead trees, your apprentice already has all the info, now go and help her!"

Which brings us to the next issue:

Spoiler: Who is Rey and why she can do what she does?

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Snoke and Kylo Ren spill the beans on this one. Turns out her parents were a red herring, they were nobody important. What is important is them identifying Rey as Kylo Ren's opposite-yet-equal in the Force. Kylo Ren is on point when he says Rey is unimportant to everyone but to him.

But that is also sufficient to explain why Rey knows so much. She is a direct conduit for the Force. If you think that's not good enough, may I direct your attention to the long dead Jedi Master who came back as a ghost to speak with his pupil?

All the knowledge of all the Jedi Masters who ever lived lives on in the Force. All the knowledge of all the Jedi Masters who ever lived lives on in the Force. All the knowledge of all the Jedi Masters who ever lived lives on in the Force. Rey is beneficiary of that knowledge because someone needs to oppose Kylo Ren. Who she was, is irrelevant. Who she is and who she will be are the important things.

The movie had its share of problems, like being about half an hour too long, introducing too many new characters, and having too much comedy in the beginning. I think the movie would've been better if it'd ended with the Resistance escaping to the barren mining planet, with the next movie starting with Luke's return to teach Rey and maybe fighting Kylo Ren to allow her to escape. But having a bad message, at least as far as pertains to Taoist Kung-Fu Wizards IN SPACE, is not among those flaws.