The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

[Peelee]

It's mentioned Chewie coaxed him into going back and let's be honest Vader would have been more pissed at whoever failed to mention a freaking freighter was targeting him!😉

If Vader was ever targeted by a freighter, yes. Also, if there was anyone in charge of letting people know they've been targeted.

[Hopeless]

In the middle of a firefight involving bombers and fighters you'd think someone would notice a freighter.

If we included Star Wars Rebels I can picture Vader noticing but because it's not the Ghost there's nothing to worry about!😮

How many people who watched Season 2 of Star Wars Rebels then ANH before thinking maybe Vader was wondering what hit him?!😎

[Devonix]

Thats called a character arc.

Its almost when we SEE the changes a character goes through its not out of place!

Its almost like writing important events offscreen to justify hackneyed plot is a bad idea!

It's hard to see a character change take place when it's based on things that happened 30 years before the movie took place.


You cannot have a character in a movie be the same as they were before a timeskip took place.

[Peelee]

In the middle of a firefight involving bombers and fighters you'd think someone would notice a freighter.

At the very end of a firefight, you mean.

It's hard to see a character change take place when it's based on things that happened 30 years before the movie took place.


You cannot have a character in a movie be the same as they were before a timeskip took place.

Yeah! Like, Obi-Wan Kenobi was all cocky and sure in the prequels, and then he's all humbled and more cautious in ANH. Imean, we didn't get a whole movie in which the way he handles things keeps blowing up in his face until his entire world collapses around him and it's a huge life-changing event and-oh, my bad, that.

[Chen]

So for all the people who think Luke's character change is proper and necessary because no character "growth" would be boring, are you all okay with Rey and Finn having absolutely no character growth so far in either movie that they are in? Rey shows up on the scene being a better pilot and mechanic than Han, a better combatant than Finn, and a better force user and lightsaber duelist than Kylo. She is involved in the plot because... it's the right thing to do, I guess? Fast forward to The Last Jedi and... Rey is still just sort of being involved for the sake of being involved, impresses Luke with her force powers, just like she impressed Han, Finn, and Kylo with her various abilities, beats Luke in combat, beats Snoke and Kylo after she marches onto their base of power, and... yeah, so much for character growth.

Finn? Former stormtrooper for the First Order, kidnapped when he was a kid and indoctrinated to be a merciless soldier. So what is this guy like when he escapes and hangs around normal people? Oh you know, pretty normal. Know need to learn social mores, no scenes of him being awkward or clumsy around people. He's just a guy with a backstory that is never really displayed, except for all of the important technical knowledge he has of various First Order vehicles and stations. You'd never tell he was indoctrinated as a kid and trained to be a cold-blooded killer in a strict hierarchical setting away from society because he's just a normal person. There is no character there.

So I don't buy it for one second that Luke would have been uninteresting if we saw him as a Jedi Grandmaster that still held the same or similar values and principles he had in RotJ. What they did was strip character away from him, so he can be on a par with the other bland protagonists in the movie.

This is a non-sequitor. I agree Rey and Finn's "growth" has been anemic. Much more could have been done with them. I've said this before though, I don't care if you didn't like what they did with Luke. That's fine. It's people saying "it's against his character" or "it doens't make sense" which I am arguing against. Would I have preferred to see Grandmaster Luke throw down and do some cool ****? Sure. But I can certainly understand the in universe motivations for the arc they put Luke through.

Re: Han, as others mentioned, Han is called out by Luke and Chewie for turning his back on the others, and of course he's disappointing Leia, a love interest. And as Lord_Khaine mentioned, this isn't actually *against* Han's character. There is reason enough for Han to have a change of heart, especially given that this is the same movie where he is introduced. I can see him telling Chewie something along the lines of "Fine, we'll go, just to see what shape they're in. But if things are going south we're out of there! I'm not risking my backside over some princess and a farmboy." This is well within his character.

So this tough as nails scoundrel, willing to murder someone instead of giving up his ship after HE ****ed up a run, gets some lip from a farmboy and a sentence from his companion (which we can't understand anyways) and suddenly changes his ways and does the thing to help save everyone. There's nothing else in the film that shows he's doing things for anyone but himself. There's nothing to indicate he has a good heart at all until he comes back to save the day by shooting Vader's wingman. Also, what a terrible shot coming from complete surprise. Could have dealt a huge blow to the empire there, not to mention how Vader's other wingman was a complete ****up who screwed the empire completely. He wasn't even shot at and bumped into Vader.

[Dr.Samurai]

It's hard to see a character change take place when it's based on things that happened 30 years before the movie took place.

Well, Rian Johnson has to tackle that problem if he decides that such a large change to the character is warranted. I mean, he can just shrug it off and say "it's hard" but that will hardly be satisfying to the people paying money to see your movie.

You cannot have a character in a movie be the same as they were before a timeskip took place.

Are you suggesting that Luke's portrayal in TLJ is the only portrayal that would have worked?

[Sinewmire]

I really enjoyed The Last Jedi. I loved Luke, I had a massive grin of childish glee at Yoda, and I liked the conflict between Poe's fighter-ace and overall-command heads.

The First Order really, really annoyed me.

The thing is, they're the Empire, and they shouldn't be. They make all the same mistakes and are made to look like buffoons, and it doesn't make sense.

The Empire was a bloated military that hasn't seen a real war in 20 years and is still fighting the tactics of the Clone Wars - powerful capital ships and swarms of troops. It's no surprise they lose battles against a small, elite force that focusses on leveraging the improvements in fighters and fighter-based weapons. Star Destroyers are amazing capital ships, but the war isn't being fought ship-to-ship anymore and with pretty much all the Academy pilots defecting to the rebels, the empires' pilot cadre was severely depleted. The choice of the TIE fighter which didn't even have hyperdrive was clearly a quantity-over-quality choice based on a military budget and assuming they'd be fighting a similar mass enemy, ie droids.

The first order was none of that. They'd seen 2 death stars and their own flagpole project, Starkiller Base, destroyed by fighters, the Executor destroyed by a dive-bombing fighter (and a fleet's worth of firepower, sure) and the Star Destroyers and point-defence guns not be able to target the small, fast moving hard-hitting fighter-bombers.

So why the hell did the first order not even launch their fighters until after Poe's attack?
Why are the first Order fighting like the empire?
Why aren't the First Order concentrating more on elite fighters and carriers?

It makes zero sense, and it would have given the writers a chance to make the First Order something more than Empire II: Electric Boogaloo.

Bleh.

I would have liked to have seen the Resistance trying to rouse a somnambulent republic, chased by a small fleet (as we saw) as the First Order launches it's long planned assault of the republic with it's secret armada.

The resistance jumps from Republic naval base to fleets, only to see them engaged and destroyed before/during/after they are warned and that's how they are chased, low on fuel, after the republic fleet's heroic last stand, rather than having capital ships A) useless against fighers B) useless against other capital ships even within visual range.

Bleh I say.

I had other problems, but that was the largest one for me. They could have done something interesting, and instead literally reset it to Empire vs Rebels.

[LaZodiac]

As with Luke, I get your explanations. I understand that it could be like that. But it stretches my suspension of disbelief too much to enjoy the movie as it is, and most importantly I would require the movie to actually come up with such explanations, not you or someone else retroactively looking for reasons why something theoretically could have made sense.

I can make the movie make sense as well:
It was all just a dream.
See? Everything explained, but not by the movie, and not satisfactory.

It is glad you liked the movie, and I hear your reasons. It's good for you if you can enjoy a sequel where main characterd are put upside down with little explanation (reasonable or not).
Then I am sure you will enjoy the upcoming movies as well.
I guess the franchise will now just be more for viewers like you than for viewers like me. :-)

Another question: what are typical other movies you enjoy? I could imagine Superhero movies like X Men Superman Batman etc are also your taste?
I ask because those change very often how a character is like, I have been told, with all the reboots and stuff - which you don't seem to mind as much as I do.

The things I'm using to come to a better conclusion on the movie are from within the movie itself. You're joke example is nonsense. Nothing in the film supports that it's "all just a dream".

You are being INCREDIBLY condescending with that last bit. You're belittling me and my opinion for liking a movie you don't. I don't care either way if you enjoy this film, but I'm not going to imply I'm more sophisticated then you are for it, or that you tend to favor "less artsy" films. I like all sorts of films. I do watch super movie films, but all the ones you've specifically mentioned have been really bad recently. I prefer the Marvel movies since they ARE incredibly consistent, while having good character arcs that develop over the course of the films. A reboot of a property is entirely different from characterization marching on.

But yeah no cut it out with the "I guess the franchise will now just be more for viewers like you than for viewers like me :-)" routine. That's super condescending.

So for all the people who think Luke's character change is proper and necessary because no character "growth" would be boring, are you all okay with Rey and Finn having absolutely no character growth so far in either movie that they are in? Rey shows up on the scene being a better pilot and mechanic than Han, a better combatant than Finn, and a better force user and lightsaber duelist than Kylo. She is involved in the plot because... it's the right thing to do, I guess? Fast forward to The Last Jedi and... Rey is still just sort of being involved for the sake of being involved, impresses Luke with her force powers, just like she impressed Han, Finn, and Kylo with her various abilities, beats Luke in combat, beats Snoke and Kylo after she marches onto their base of power, and... yeah, so much for character growth.

Finn? Former stormtrooper for the First Order, kidnapped when he was a kid and indoctrinated to be a merciless soldier. So what is this guy like when he escapes and hangs around normal people? Oh you know, pretty normal. Know need to learn social mores, no scenes of him being awkward or clumsy around people. He's just a guy with a backstory that is never really displayed, except for all of the important technical knowledge he has of various First Order vehicles and stations. You'd never tell he was indoctrinated as a kid and trained to be a cold-blooded killer in a strict hierarchical setting away from society because he's just a normal person. There is no character there.

While they didn't develop as much as I'd of liked in The Force Awakens, Finn and Rey do have a pretty clear character to them. Finn spends most of the movie pretty unsure about everything but shooting or running. He trips over himself verbally and otherwise does show himself to be as awkward as a recent run away from the First Order's baby soldier regiment. It's also established he's always had problems with the higher ups, thus his constant janitorial duties. So he's clearly not as indoctrinated as the others. There's a character there, it's just being set up for the next two films (wherein Finn learns that being a bystander and not taking a side is the same as supporting the bad guys, he toughens up while still being a little awkward, and he gets a good symbolic revenge against the system that made him into what he is).

I will never be able to convince you or anyone that Rey is a good character, but I may as well try. Rey is not a better pilot or mechanic than Han. She knows ships and inspected it before hand so she'd have a better idea of what was wrong with it then the guy who hasn't seen it in like 15 years. That's reasonable. Han is still the better pilot. She's not shown as a better combatant than Finn, she's shown she can hold her own with her staff against junkers. Impressive, sure, but completely reasonable given how long she's lived here. You'd develop some level of combat ability in a place like this. She is not a better duelist or force user than Kylo Ren, as has been talked about at length in numerous ways. She's got a lot of strength, but not much training, so they're kind of even in that regard (Ren has a lot of powerful but lacks discipline) and the lightsaber duel was an emotionally unstable and currently bleeding from a Bowcaster shot Ren vs a more in control Rey. She is being involved because she became friends with BB8, and because Finn wants her to come with, and because she WANTS to come with and help. That's really all the justification you need given this is her story.

Rey is still involved in what's going on in The Last Jedi because she is the main character of the film. This is ultimately her story. She "beats" Luke only in the sense that she gets a hold of the instant kill laser sword first and Luke is very clearly not interested in actually fighting, whereas Rey is trying to do anything she can to force Luke to help her. We also see Rey practicing with her staff, and then trying to translate those moves into using the lightsaber with mixed results (slicing the rock in half, as an example). Rey being very strong with the force is something we already knew, but in this one she gets more disciplined, better trained, a better understanding of how it works. Rey...does NOT beat Snoke, Snoke defeats her entirely and it's Ren that beats Snoke, I don't know what you're talking about with this. Then we have the force tug of war, which given the lightsaber split in two felt more like a draw to me, a sign that they're still equals.

As for "no development" please consider that Rey's "actual character" advanced a lot in The Last Jedi, if not her combat stats. This isn't an RPG, the plot matters more than how good she is at hitting things. She went from an idealistic girl spoonfed on legends and her own desire to be something greater into someone who now realizes the truth of those people she looks up to, and yet still has that spark of hope. She knows where they went wrong, and is ready to face the day and do better than they did. She's fought Ren for the second time and now understands him better. Wheter this leads to a redemption or not (I don't think it will) remains to be seen, but for me it is an interesting conflict, and good characterization.

[The Aboleth]

That's the core of the problem: He WAS the actual best at that kind of thing, because it worked on the second-most-evil and second-most-powerful person in the galaxy! It was an astonishing victory which got him famous in the known civilization.

Even if you are right and he wasn't actually the best at this sort of thing, what do you think Luke would have thought after he had "redeemed" his dad? I think that any man would be completely convinced of himself and his methods if he achieved what Luke had achieved, and would try this method again next time.

Luke DID feel convinced of himself and his methods--which is why when he screwed up, he took it REALLY HARD and attributed much of his failure to his (and, by extension, the Jedi's) hubris. He talked at great length to Rey about how he was a legend, and that because of this he felt he could restart the Jedi Order and train Kylo despite the huge risk involved. He failed, and that failure led to the rise of Kylo Ren and the death of many people.

After a failure like that, I can understand the big shift in personality from his RotJ days. Just because you didn't like the change doesn't make it less believable.

The whole story would be way more believable if Luke became overly confident and tried to talk another baddie over to the good side and spectactularly failed. Hell, show some of failures of this kind and maybe we could eventually arrive at the disillusioned man Luke is in VIII, but the way it is being depicted just doesn't fit.

It does fit, you just don't like it--which is ok, too each their own. To me, having Luke try the "talky-man thing" would be boring because we've seen it before AND because Rey already decides to try it with Kylo. In D&D terms, Luke knows (now) that he rolled a natural 20 with Vader 30 years ago AND had a circumstance bonus on top of that (he was Vader's son), so it was more a fluke that he turned Vader than anything. He knows a similar strategy is virtually impossible for him (because of Kylo's anger at Luke, specifically) and for Rey (because she's a relative nobody to Kylo save for her natural affinity to the Force--she's more likely to be turned by HIM than vice-versa).

[Jayngfet]

Today I heard the nice interpretation that it was all Qui-Gon's fault when he cheated Wato at the dice. How much more can you put things in the hands of destiny than putting them up to a die roll? If Anakin was chosen by destiny, then the die would have given him to the Jedi. But Qui-Gon didn't trust destiny and interfered, messing up everything.

Almost certainly not what was intended, but over the years I've become quite convinced that the intended story of the prequels is to show how the Jedi had lost their way and screwed up because of it.

What's worth noting is that there was another Master-Padawan pair(Quinlan Vos and Aayla Secura) already on Tatooine at the time and also in the city. This is also largely due to retcon since Vos was originally just a random background character who was made into a jedi after the fact, but it means that even if Anakin was meant to be a jedi, that doesn't necessarily mean that Obi-Wan or Qui-Gonn were meant to train him.

Keeping in mind that he'd have met Padme either way if it's ONLY down to dice rolls and would likely have still been security detail years later, Vos and Secura both had their own illicit affairs at varying points and would probably have been way more approachable about the entire ordeal.

[Dr.Samurai]

This is a non-sequitor.

Well, in a few sentences you're about to say you're "arguing" and my point is this isn't really an argument. You're just trying to hold people accountable, but not really proving a point.

...I don't care if you didn't like what they did with Luke. That's fine. It's people saying "it's against his character" or "it doens't make sense" which I am arguing against.

Well... that's what people don't like about what they did with Luke lol, so I'm not sure how you're fine on one hand, but not on the other.

Would I have preferred to see Grandmaster Luke throw down and do some cool ****? Sure. But I can certainly understand the in universe motivations for the arc they put Luke through.

I think most people can understand that Luke *could* end up this way. But how it happened is the problem. The justification is hard to swallow. I don't think anyone is arguing that Luke could never become a husk of his former self. But we need some solid reasoning behind it.

So this tough as nails scoundrel, willing to murder someone instead of giving up his ship after HE ****ed up a run, gets some lip from a farmboy and a sentence from his companion (which we can't understand anyways) and suddenly changes his ways and does the thing to help save everyone.

Tough as nails? Hmm... not how I'd characterize Han, but sure. Scoundrels with a heart of gold is a common trope. Luke and Leia had an impact on Han. He has a crush on her, and likes Luke. He may even think that they have a shot at beating the Empire. So he returns. Again, it doesn't seem out of place for him to show up and see what's going on, and see an opening and help out.

There's nothing else in the film that shows he's doing things for anyone but himself. There's nothing to indicate he has a good heart at all until he comes back to save the day by shooting Vader's wingman.

He's a scoundrel. He does *whatever he wants*. And in this case, he felt like returning to see how his new friends were faring. And he became a hero for it.

In any event, it is far more believable to me that a scoundrel might realize there is a higher cause that he can use his skills for, now that he's met a couple of people with grander ideals to fight for, than to think that Luke is so scared of his sleeping nephew that hasn't done anything, that he blames himself for the fall of Kylo Ren and abandons everything, including life, as he resigns himself to death on a lonely island.

Characters have a spectrum of actions they can take, and Han's isn't outside of that spectrum, while Luke's requires some serious explanation.

[Mightymosy]

I am sorry but where did you get that "condescending" from? I literally meant what I said. We obviously like different kinds of movies, and I was curious whether this reflected in other favourite movies of yours?

So, sorry if I made you feel bad. I'm certainly angry at the Star Wars director, but I don't have any problem with you liking the film! I sincerly think it's a matter of taste and most importantly where people see their focus in a movie
Again, thus the last paragraph. A good friend of mine loves the various Super Hero movies while I never warmed up with most of them, because FOR ME it didn't make sense for example to care for Spider 3 when Reboot number x was already on the line - while for him he was probably used to this kind of movie making and was quite eager how the next director would picture his favourite hero.
I figured that might be similar with you, but instead of assuming something i wouldnt know about a complete stranger, i'd thought i just asked.



So really, no bad blood intended. Not against you, anyway.

It annoys me that Last Jedi could really have been good for the both of us but ultimately wasnt, but that isnt your fault. I said, and stand by it, that quite a couple of YOUR suggestions were much better ideas/explanantions than the (in my eyes) lazy stuff the actual director/movie crew showed us.

[LaZodiac]

I am sorry but where did you get that "condescending" from? I literally meant what I said. We obviously like different kinds of movies, and I was curious whether this reflected in other favourite movies of yours?

So, sorry if I made you feel bad. I'm certainly angry at the Star Wars director, but I don't have any problem with you liking the film! I sincerly think it's a matter of taste and most importantly where people see their focus in a movie
Again, thus the last paragraph. A good friend of mine loves the various Super Hero movies while I never warmed up with most of them, because FOR ME it didn't make sense for example to care for Spider 3 when Reboot number x was already on the line - while for him he was probably used to this kind of movie making and was quite eager how the next director would picture his favourite hero.
I figured that might be similar with you, but instead of assuming something i wouldnt know about a complete stranger, i'd thought i just asked.

So really, no bad blood intended. Not against you, anyway.

It annoys me that Last Jedi could really have been good for the both of us but ultimately wasnt, but that isnt your fault. I said, and stand by it, that quite a couple of YOUR suggestions were much better ideas/explanantions than the (in my eyes) lazy stuff the actual director/movie crew showed us.

Tone is hard to convey over internet and it definitely felt condescending. No harm done, thanks for the apology.

One of the big "things" with super heroes is that seeing how differently they're adapted is part of the fun. Though now that Spiderman's in the MCU he won't be rebooted film wise for awhile, which is good because this current interpretation rules. It's one of the positive of comics and comic based media (and also one of it's flaws).

I feel like the suggestions I came up with, I only came up with because that's what the movie said to me. Which is one of those things that is always difficult with films. Recently an article was released where a bunch of dumb nerds badgered the creator of Die Hard to "explain the plot hole" of the main character figuring out Hans is a bad guy. He reveals there was an intended to be filmed scene where it established all the bad guys wear the same watch and the movie as it's filmed makes it clear that Bruce Willis's character checks out their watches and notices it. But the film as it stands never explicitly mentions the watches, and never has anyone say "I know you're bad because of the watch" so a bunch of dumb nerds thought this was a plothole, when it's just the main character being smarter than them and the movie better than they deserve.

The point of that being, should movies be more overt about subtle plot points or not? Do we trust the audience to "get it" or do we make a bigger deal out of what should be subtle so that everyone can understand what's trying to be conveyed. It's tricky, and I feel like Last Jedi might edge too far into the "we'll leave the viewer to get it" territory for some people. Which is fine and good, sometimes things need to be explained. Though judging from Rian Johnson's film Looper, which has an explicit scene where characters make it clear that obsessing over details and overexplaining things really really sucks, that Rian Johnson does not like to do that. This is what I'd call an actual flaw in the movie, because even I would of liked more explanation. It's fun to think about a movie and figure out what they're intending you to take from the film, but sometimes it's nice just to be told so we don't spend 40 pages yelling at each other.

[comicshorse]

The Empire was a bloated military that hasn't seen a real war in 20 years and is still fighting the tactics of the Clone Wars - powerful capital ships and swarms of troops. It's no surprise they lose battles against a small, elite force that focusses on leveraging the improvements in fighters and fighter-based weapons. Star Destroyers are amazing capital ships, but the war isn't being fought ship-to-ship anymore and with pretty much all the Academy pilots defecting to the rebels, the empires' pilot cadre was severely depleted. The choice of the TIE fighter which didn't even have hyperdrive was clearly a quantity-over-quality choice based on a military budget and assuming they'd be fighting a similar mass enemy, ie droids.

I'm not sure if this is canon but I really like this idea

The first order was none of that. They'd seen 2 death stars and their own flagpole project, Starkiller Base, destroyed by fighters, the Executor destroyed by a dive-bombing fighter (and a fleet's worth of firepower, sure) and the Star Destroyers and point-defence guns not be able to target the small, fast moving hard-hitting fighter-bombers.

So why the hell did the first order not even launch their fighters until after Poe's attack?
Why are the first Order fighting like the empire?
Why aren't the First Order concentrating more on elite fighters and carriers?

This was discussed some pages back ( god know's where, this thread moves quickly) and the theory I favour is basically Snoke is an idiot. Snoke is a cult leader not a military genius. He brainwashes angry young men and convinces them to serve him. He has a core of Old Empire officers ( See the commander of the Dreadnought) but doesn't trust them because they haven't drunk the kool aid, so to speak. Instead he'd rather take advice from idiots like Hux because he knows they are blindly loyal to him

[LaZodiac]

I'm not sure if this is canon but I really like this idea



This was discussed some pages back ( god know's where, this thread moves quickly) and the theory I favour is basically Snoke is an idiot. Snoke is a cult leader not a military genius. He brainwashes angry young men and convinces them to serve him. He has a core of Old Empire officers ( See the commander of the Dreadnought) but doesn't trust them because they haven't drunk the kool aid, so to speak. Instead he'd rather take advice from idiots like Hux because he knows they are blindly loyal to him

He lounges around in gold lame and can't see a literal backstabbing coming as he described it because he's that confident he's the smartest person in the room. Snoke is a ****ing moron, and I love it.

[The Aboleth]

This was discussed some pages back ( god know's where, this thread moves quickly) and the theory I favour is basically Snoke is an idiot. Snoke is a cult leader not a military genius. He brainwashes angry young men and convinces them to serve him. He has a core of Old Empire officers ( See the commander of the Dreadnought) but doesn't trust them because they haven't drunk the kool aid, so to speak. Instead he'd rather take advice from idiots like Hux because he knows they are blindly loyal to him

Yeah, the "Old Empire" dreadnought commander even says "We should have scrambled our fighters five minutes ago!" (I'm paraphrasing but it's close to the actual line). My interpretation was that Hux's incompetence was the reason why the First Order hadn't scrambled the fighters sooner. Had the dreadnought commander possessed the ability to override Hux, Poe wouldn't have had any chance as soon as he showed up.

EDIT: That's the whole point of Poe's plan, though--he's betting that Hux will be such an idiot that it'll buy time for BB-8 to do its thing.

[Dr.Samurai]

I will never be able to convince you or anyone that Rey is a good character, but I may as well try. Rey is not a better pilot or mechanic than Han. She knows ships and inspected it before hand so she'd have a better idea of what was wrong with it then the guy who hasn't seen it in like 15 years. That's reasonable. Han is still the better pilot. She's not shown as a better combatant than Finn, she's shown she can hold her own with her staff against junkers. Impressive, sure, but completely reasonable given how long she's lived here. You'd develop some level of combat ability in a place like this. She is not a better duelist or force user than Kylo Ren, as has been talked about at length in numerous ways. She's got a lot of strength, but not much training, so they're kind of even in that regard (Ren has a lot of powerful but lacks discipline) and the lightsaber duel was an emotionally unstable and currently bleeding from a Bowcaster shot Ren vs a more in control Rey. She is being involved because she became friends with BB8, and because Finn wants her to come with, and because she WANTS to come with and help. That's really all the justification you need given this is her story.

There's just not a lot of motivation given to her and she doesn't appear to be fighting for the Resistance in any event. Here's what I get from Rey:

- She finds BB8, and inexplicably won't sell him and wants to keep him around. For this she gets targeted by the First Order and has to escape. So because Finn knows the value of BB8, he helps her escape Jakku. She finds out he's a Resistance hero and is excited about this. But so far, Rey is only involved because she has BB8. There's not really any ideal here that she's fighting for, it's not really her motivation that has her involved. It's just... she has the droid.
- Han finds them, and offers to take her on as his second in command, but she says no. Why? I don't really remember. I think it's because she thinks her parents will return to grab her on Jakku. Then she has the encounter with the lightsaber and runs away in fear or anger or whatever and gets captured by Ren. So again, she is still involved through no real reason of her own, in the sense that she's not a Resistance fighter, or trying to do the right thing. She's just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Again.
- Now we're on Starkiller Base and she is escaping. Great. She gets to see Han die because this is really just a fanfic. Ok. Now Kylo stalks after them and she fights him. But again, this isn't her going after Kylo, it's just that she's there because he already captured her. So she fights him and beats him because... well, we've all given our opinions on this already.
- We're off Starkiller Base. Rey is sent after Luke because she is force sensitive.

So by the end of the movie, Rey has only been involved in the plot incidentally, and only now is involved because she has the Force. But really she's just there to give Luke a message (they need you) and possibly get training. She's not a hero in the sense of someone with a reason to get involved and fight the bad guy.

In The Last Jedi, she's still not really vested in the fight against the First Order. She's trying to convince Luke to train her and help the Resistance. And he refuses. She thinks she can redeem Kylo through their conversations, but the movies haven't really established why she would do that. Why she would risk hopping aboard the Supremacy and confronting Snoke to redeem Kylo Ren. She just... does it. That's pretty huge I think. And then she shows up at the salt planet and ferries the remaining six people of the Resistance away.

I don't know. As the hero and main character, she doesn't seem well established to me. I'm just looking at a generic "good person" and someone that is incredibly powerful. Which is cool and all but doesn't interest me much. As I said before, the throne room fight with her and Kylo and the faceless guards was totally uninteresting to me because the characters are all bland.

Rey...does NOT beat Snoke, Snoke defeats her entirely and it's Ren that beats Snoke, I don't know what you're talking about with this.

Ren is Snoke's mewling pup. Snoke can bash Ren in front of anyone and Kylo just takes it. Rey is the one that inspires Ren to do the deed, and he does it. I don't think Kylo Ren would have killed Snoke if Rey hadn't simply delivered herself into his arms and set him up for Kylo to kill.

This is the problem with Rey. She can do anything. In RotJ, this is the culmination of the trilogy and of Luke's arc. He is now a Jedi knight, or master even, and walks into the throne room for the final showdown between good and evil. Here, Rey still has no training, no real understanding of the Force, no real connection to Kylo except this new telepathy, and she waltzes onto the ship and convinces him to kill his master, and then she leaves.

Ren, who was seduced by Snoke and does what he does because he wants the power of the dark side, was now influenced by Rey to kill his master.

Then we have the force tug of war, which given the lightsaber split in two felt more like a draw to me, a sign that they're still equals.

True. For me, it's more that she can simply walk in, **** everything up for the bad guys, and then walk out without a hitch that makes her superior. Kylo is arguably at his strongest when he's on the Supremacy, but Rey can walk in and walk out, leaving devastation in her wake. That's a narrative problem, especially given that she already beat him in TFA.

[LaZodiac]

There's just not a lot of motivation given to her and she doesn't appear to be fighting for the Resistance in any event. Here's what I get from Rey:

- She finds BB8, and inexplicably won't sell him and wants to keep him around. For this she gets targeted by the First Order and has to escape. So because Finn knows the value of BB8, he helps her escape Jakku. She finds out he's a Resistance hero and is excited about this. But so far, Rey is only involved because she has BB8. There's not really any ideal here that she's fighting for, it's not really her motivation that has her involved. It's just... she has the droid.
- Han finds them, and offers to take her on as his second in command, but she says no. Why? I don't really remember. I think it's because she thinks her parents will return to grab her on Jakku. Then she has the encounter with the lightsaber and runs away in fear or anger or whatever and gets captured by Ren. So again, she is still involved through no real reason of her own, in the sense that she's not a Resistance fighter, or trying to do the right thing. She's just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Again.
- Now we're on Starkiller Base and she is escaping. Great. She gets to see Han die because this is really just a fanfic. Ok. Now Kylo stalks after them and she fights him. But again, this isn't her going after Kylo, it's just that she's there because he already captured her. So she fights him and beats him because... well, we've all given our opinions on this already.
- We're off Starkiller Base. Rey is sent after Luke because she is force sensitive.

So by the end of the movie, Rey has only been involved in the plot incidentally, and only now is involved because she has the Force. But really she's just there to give Luke a message (they need you) and possibly get training. She's not a hero in the sense of someone with a reason to get involved and fight the bad guy.

In The Last Jedi, she's still not really vested in the fight against the First Order. She's trying to convince Luke to train her and help the Resistance. And he refuses. She thinks she can redeem Kylo through their conversations, but the movies haven't really established why she would do that. Why she would risk hopping aboard the Supremacy and confronting Snoke to redeem Kylo Ren. She just... does it. That's pretty huge I think. And then she shows up at the salt planet and ferries the remaining six people of the Resistance away.

I don't know. As the hero and main character, she doesn't seem well established to me. I'm just looking at a generic "good person" and someone that is incredibly powerful. Which is cool and all but doesn't interest me much. As I said before, the throne room fight with her and Kylo and the faceless guards was totally uninteresting to me because the characters are all bland.

Ren is Snoke's mewling pup. Snoke can bash Ren in front of anyone and Kylo just takes it. Rey is the one that inspires Ren to do the deed, and he does it. I don't think Kylo Ren would have killed Snoke if Rey hadn't simply delivered herself into his arms and set him up for Kylo to kill.

This is the problem with Rey. She can do anything. In RotJ, this is the culmination of the trilogy and of Luke's arc. He is now a Jedi knight, or master even, and walks into the throne room for the final showdown between good and evil. Here, Rey still has no training, no real understanding of the Force, no real connection to Kylo except this new telepathy, and she waltzes onto the ship and convinces him to kill his master, and then she leaves.

Ren, who was seduced by Snoke and does what he does because he wants the power of the dark side, was now influenced by Rey to kill his master.

True. For me, it's more that she can simply walk in, **** everything up for the bad guys, and then walk out without a hitch that makes her superior. Kylo is arguably at his strongest when he's on the Supremacy, but Rey can walk in and walk out, leaving devastation in her wake. That's a narrative problem, especially given that she already beat him in TFA.

BB8 is a cute and good orb friend. Rey decides not to sell him because he convinces her otherwise and talks about the important thing he has, and seems like a good friend. We know her motive because she sleeps in a destroyed AT-AT and pretends to be a pilot with the rebel fighter helmet she has. She wants to go to space and do action hero stuff like Luke Skywalker. The Last Jedi gives us a more concrete motive of defeating the First Order for the horrible crimes they've done. You are right that she loses some agency to the plot due to the bad guys kidnapping her, but part of that is because Ren's story here is that he wants to establish himself. First as the new Darth Vader, and then as his own person. Her lack of agency in that part of the film doesn't detract from the part that she did choose to be here.

I feel like the problem you have is that...you think people need a good reason to do heroic good deeds? Some people are just nice. Rey is nice, she'll help out because she wants to. It's kind of an overarching thing in the story that even she does feel a little bad about that, she wants to justify herself being here by tying herself to Luke, or Han, or Leia. Ren gives her the option of tying herself, and her self worth, to him. And she refuses because she realizes she's here to do this "because she wants to do good" and that's all the reason she needs. It's fine that you think this is bland, I just don't. I think it's refreshing that Rey isn't some super destined super child, she's just naturally pretty strong and has good morals.

Rey never influenced Ren to kill his master. He clearly chafes under Snoke's beratement, smashing his precious helmet and deciding to focus more on becoming himself instead of the new Vader. He very clearly hates Snoke, and is very unhinged. He kills Snoke not because anything Rey said to him got through to him (as evidenced by his immediate "turn back" after the fight) but because "he wants Rey". He saves her life because he wants her. You compare this scene to how Luke waltzed into the Death Star to convince his Dad to be good, and given the end result of this and that scene, it's clear that Rey THOUGHT she was doing that, but she fails entirely. Yes, Ren kills Snoke, but he doesn't do it because he wants to be good now. He does it because he wants to remove the old guard entirely. He wants to burn the past, start anew. With her by his side. This was a decision he had already decided to do. We know this from what he said to Rey during their force skype calls. "Let the past die. Kill it if you must". Rey being there just made it easier. And as said, Rey "winning" against Ren in Force Awakens was really stacked on her side. The bowcaster is a missile launcher, effectively, that blows up everyone we've seen it hit. The fact that Ren is still standing despite being blasted through the kidnies with it is a testament to how strong he is, but it clearly takes a LOT out of him.

[The Aboleth]

Ren is Snoke's mewling pup. Snoke can bash Ren in front of anyone and Kylo just takes it. Rey is the one that inspires Ren to do the deed, and he does it. I don't think Kylo Ren would have killed Snoke if Rey hadn't simply delivered herself into his arms and set him up for Kylo to kill.

....

Ren, who was seduced by Snoke and does what he does because he wants the power of the dark side, was now influenced by Rey to kill his master.

Having seen the movie twice now, I actually felt that Kylo Ren had decided to kill Snoke when he destroyed his mask in the elevator. Snoke had called him, essentially, a wanna-be Vader and told him he'd never be as strong as he wanted. When Kylo walks out and gets to the elevator, my intrepration of his actions was him accepting that Snoke was just using him and deciding to no longer be a "mewling pup" anymore. This was then reinforced later when Snoke admits to Rey--in front of Kylo--that he had manipulated Kylo into bringing Rey there. When Snoke orders Kylo to kill Rey, it provided a way for Kylo to manipulate Snoke's arrogance in a way which results in his death.


TLDR: Rey didn't convince Kylo to kill Snoke, she just provided him an opening to act on that decision he had already made much earlier.

[Aquillion]

Rey's motivation in the early parts of TLJ was to get off Jakku (hardly an unsurprising motivation.) In the process of doing so she makes several friends and wants to protect them (and, in the case of Han, avenge them) - yes, she bonds with them quickly, but she hasn't had any real friends in her life before. She's also sympathetic to the Rebellion's goals, just as a matter of politics.

She also wants to find her parents after finding the lightsaber and having that vision, and, since she knows it's connected to Luke, she thinks he has answers for her (and, probably, secretly suspects it's him, since she would have grown up hearing stories of his legends and picturing herself following his arc in terms of having a secretly important lineage.)

Snoke blatantly uses supernatural methods to force a connection between her and Kylo Ren, and, again, influenced by Luke's legend and by her desire to help her friends, she decides to try and redeem him. Then she refuses to side with him because he's murdering her friends right in front of her and because she still finds the First Order's ideology detestable. (Seriously, nobody but someone with Kylo Ren's lack of empathy could think that that offer would be accepted.)

TLDR: Rey didn't convince Kylo to kill Snoke, she just provided him an opening to act on that decision he had already made much earlier.

Yes, this. The real question isn't why Kylo Ren killed Snoke, it's why he didn't do it much much sooner. Dark side users killing their master seems to be practically a requirement to practice the Dark Side anyway (the Sith even formalized it! It was a given that a Sith Apprentice would eventually try to kill their master.) Rey being there to serve as a distraction gave Kylo Ren the opportunity, not the motivation - Snoke had been giving him motivations constantly throughout the movie.

The whole point of the scene afterwards was that Rey thought she'd redeemed him, when he'd actually killed Snoke for his own crazypants reasons and expected her to just go along with them.

[Mordar]

Rey's motivation in the early parts of TLJ was to get off Jakku (hardly an unsurprising motivation.) In the process of doing so she makes several friends and wants to protect them (and, in the case of Han, avenge them) - yes, she bonds with them quickly, but she hasn't had any real friends in her life before. She's also sympathetic to the Rebellion's goals, just as a matter of politics.

She also wants to find her parents after finding the lightsaber and having that vision, and, since she knows it's connected to Luke, she thinks he has answers for her (and, probably, secretly suspects it's him, since she would have grown up hearing stories of his legends and picturing herself following his arc in terms of having a secretly important lineage.)

Snoke blatantly uses supernatural methods to force a connection between her and Kylo Ren, and, again, influenced by Luke's legend and by her desire to help her friends, she decides to try and redeem him. Then she refuses to side with him because he's murdering her friends right in front of her and because she still finds the First Order's ideology detestable. (Seriously, nobody but someone with Kylo Ren's lack of empathy could think that that offer would be accepted.)

She didn't want to leave Jakku...at all. And as soon as she was off-world she wanted to get back as quickly as possible. She only left the planet to help BB8. Her "several" friends would seem to consist of Finn, Han and Chewie (and BB8). Finn doesn't want any part of the Resistance, Han dies and Chewie is treated like wallpaper throughout the movies. The saber has nothing to do with her parents...except maybe reminding her they left her on Jakku and that's where she should be.

Now I agree that at the end of TFA she'd be willing to go see Luke because maybe he knows where she should look for her parents...but that's about it. And then she strangely decides that the person who killed her one good father-figure should be redeemed...so now we spiral off into who knows what counts for motivation in this trilogy.

- M

[The Glyphstone]

Snoke blatantly uses supernatural methods to force a connection between her and Kylo Ren, and, again, influenced by Luke's legend and by her desire to help her friends, she decides to try and redeem him. Then she refuses to side with him because he's murdering her friends right in front of her and because she still finds the First Order's ideology detestable. (Seriously, nobody but someone with Kylo Ren's lack of empathy could think that that offer would be accepted.)

Especially right after he does a monologue about how she's nothing, her parents were nothing, she is irrelevant and unimportant. His sales pitch sucks.

[LaZodiac]

Especially right after he does a monologue about how she's nothing, her parents were nothing, she is irrelevant and unimportant. His sales pitch sucks.

To be fair that's what SHE was thinking too. He adds "but if you come with me you can matter". He explicitly, outright says, that she will have relevance to the story, if she becomes his.

[Dr.Samurai]

I feel like the problem you have is that...you think people need a good reason to do heroic good deeds?

More that, they need good reasons to risk their lives.

In TFA it doesn't matter much, because again, Rey is mostly just swept up in the action. So her motivation doesn't need to be strong, but it also detracts from her role as a hero.

But in TLJ, Luke doesn't play along, so now Rey has to take action on her own (for really the first time in the trilogy we get to see what she's about beyond "wait for my parents on Jakku"). And she chooses to fly to the Supremacy and get captured. This is a HUGE risk. We saw that she had *no* ability to deal with Snoke at all. She could have been killed in an instant. So I have to question why she would put herself in that position? And the answer is weak. She hates Kylo. She's made sympathetic to him because she finds out Luke almost murdered him (sorry, but that's what happened, it's why she thinks there's a chance for Kylo and why Luke hates himself), but this reasoning is already hard to swallow. That she hasn't had much agency up until now and suddenly cares *so much* about Kylo's fate that she would walk onto the Supremacy is too much. She could have died. I need to understand why she would be willing to die for Kylo.

Re: Snoke's death

This is in response to the multiple responses. I didn't get the impression that Kylo was resolved to kill Snoke before then. Kylo has ever been conflicted about everything he does. Even after he killed Han he was still conflicted about it. His tantrum in the elevator was just that to me, another tantrum. I got the impression that perhaps the thought had crossed his mind but seemed unthinkable, and Rey gave him the resolve. If it was meant to be Kylo finally resolving to do something and acting on that resolve, I don't think that came across well. In other words, I think the communication between Kylo and Rey was necessary for him to do it, as well as her being there (and not simply as a distraction). I never got the impression that Kylo, absent Rey in any form, was going to kill Snoke.

[comicshorse]

I may be misremembering but didn't Snoke also say he manipulated Kylo Ren's mind to increase his attraction to Rey, to help convince her he could be 'turned' and so walk into Snoke's lair ?

Also, for the record, I was also sure Kylo was always planning to kill Snoke

[Giggling Ghast]

The First Order really, really annoyed me.

The thing is, they're the Empire, and they shouldn't be. They make all the same mistakes and are made to look like buffoons, and it doesn't make sense.

Two things:

1) The Last Jedi does demonstrate that there are some severe shortcomings in the leadership of the First Order, ie. that Dreadnought commander saying they should have mobilized TIE fighters five minutes ago. Hux is a buffoon. Kylo Ren is a psychotic manchild. Snoke is undone by his arrogance.

2) The Empire is what the First Order wants to be. They haven't changed tactics because they think it was perfect the first time around. And they can bring enough overwhelming force to bear that their shortcomings are largely irrelevant.

Xykon makes that point in Start of Darkness; if the enemy is strong enough, no amount of strategical cunning will ensure victory; Godzilla will always prevail over the Japanese army.

[Dr.Samurai]

I may be misremembering but didn't Snoke also say he manipulated Kylo Ren's mind to increase his attraction to Rey, to help convince her he could be 'turned' and so walk into Snoke's lair ?

I don't remember a part about making him attracted to her, but he says that he is the one that connected their minds together and it was his idea to bring Rey to the ship. I remember wondering at the time if he and Ren spoke about that plan to bring her to the ship or if it was somehow incepted by Snoke into their minds. I don't think it's clear but I could be forgetting some bit of dialogue.

Then he starts going on and on with his eyes closed about how amazing he is at controlling his subordinates.

[LaZodiac]

I don't remember a part about making him attracted to her, but he says that he is the one that connected their minds together and it was his idea to bring Rey to the ship. I remember wondering at the time if he and Ren spoke about that plan to bring her to the ship or if it was somehow incepted by Snoke into their minds. I don't think it's clear but I could be forgetting some bit of dialogue.

Then he starts going on and on with his eyes closed about how amazing he is at controlling his subordinates.

It was incepted into their minds. It's part of why he starts playing up how good he is at mind reading, he's cocky about it because it worked.

[Dr.Samurai]

I don't like that because then Rey's only real moment of agency is her decision to fly the Falcon to Crait and pick up the remaining three members of the Resistance.

[Giggling Ghast]

I don't like that because then Rey's only real moment of agency is her decision to fly the Falcon to Crait and pick up the remaining three members of the Resistance.

She refuses to join Kylo after Snoke is dead.