Death Battle III Not Even Internally Consistent

[Mikemical]

Also Vergil's wiki entry says since becoming the King of Hell it is implied he surpassed Dante's power level.

Wrong Vergil, the one you're looking for is this one.

They didn't go for DmC Dante for Dante vs Bayonetta, what makes you think they'll choose Vergil from the game everyone hated?

In the two 1MMs, Vergil won the first, and got a draw on the second round. It's not directly influential on the outcome of this Death Battle, but considering they're friends with Hyun's Dojo, maybe we'll see Vergil pull a win by the skin of his teeth. Yamato is still capable of cutting through dimensions, space and time.

[Lemmy]

Re: WW v. Thor

Here you're just hurling an accusation with no rhyme or reason. Hoping on Wonder Woman bandwagon is the opposite of trolling popular characters for views. Which is their strategy?

What makes you think it can't be both? Different tactics in different videos.

The lack of one-shotting doesn't mean much. Superman is deliberately holding back most of the time according to comic book cannon. He is also more powerful than the other Kryptonians.

Even if he's twice as powerful as every other kryptonian (which I highly doubt), with the numbers they calculated for him, Zod still should be one-shotting pretty much everything. Not to mention the gods-know-how-many evil versions of Superman.

Now there are times Superman struggles against opponents, but then there are other times the comics suggests his limits are self-imposed. A Deathbattle fight is said to occur at the two at their "maximum potential."

They purposely state the assumption is that they are taking the two fighting at their greatest potential. The comic pages that suggest Superman has infinite strength are there. If Superman truly has no limit to his power at times, he will win.

Actually, it's more like "at their strongest point". Not their "maximum potential". And Goku also has infinity potential. Only he gains access to it by training, rather than absorbing sunlight.

Superman was said to have help doing the heavy lifting. However, he was lifting infinity in those cases, and the math is, and I quote, "1/2 of infinity is infinity." They also suggested (only half jokingly) that Shazam and Wonder Woman took a finite amount and Superman did all the rest.

Yeah... That doesn't even make sense. Infinity mass = infinity gravity. Are WW and Shazaam infinitely strong/resilient too, so as to be capable of resisting that gravitational pull? What about their clothes? And if Superman is infinitely strong, why are they even there? Why did he need help to move that planet? That "infinity weight" doesn't even make sense in the comics itself. Superman "died" once, remember? And he struggles/gets beat by other super-powerful beings fairly often. Even some he'd have no problem "killing", like robots. Do all of them, have infinity power as well?

Separately from measuring the stats of the two, there is a story element to Superman that suggests he will win. His stories tend to be about his own self-imposed limits and morality. Superman doesn't (usually) train and strive and work to push through to the next level to take on a stronger opponent. Superman is the stronger opponent. He just needs to figure out a way to use that strength in a moral way.

You can argue whether the comic stories and pages that suggest that Superman has "no limit" really mean what they imply, but at a story level Superman stories tend to suggest Superman is the greatest being.

Goku's stories are clearly different. Goku is usually looking out for, training for, or facing off against the next greater opponent.

The story element isn't one Death Battle pulls out often. Its a lot more meta than measuring Superman's strength vs Goku's at any one point. However, it is a significant and legitimate way of analyzing these versus matches. If Superman's narrative is that he is the strongest being, and Goku's is that he always needs to strive to become stronger, then Goku can never surpass Superman without losing an essential part of what it means to be Goku.

The "story element" is not an argument. It's also an story element that Superman doesn't kill. The whole point of the character is that despite being super-powerful, he doesn't let that corrupt him. Goku is similarly merciful and compassionate to most opponents (until the Buu saga, he doesn't kill anyone in DBZ). And even if you go with that "story element" logic, then Goku should've won the second battle.

Again... I''m sure there's a good argument to be made about Superman being stronger than Goku... But DB didn't make it.

[Reddish Mage]

Offensively, Nanoha has been seen shooting through a several kilometer long ship that has severe anti-magic properties. She didn't shoot the full distance of the ship, but she was basically on the bridge, and her opponent was hiding somewhere else, and rather then go find said opponent, she just shot her from where she was. Here's the scene. And that's not her strongest attack.

Gigaslave is more damaging, but Nanoha does have the range, and Lina certainly lacks the defenses to take a hit. Nanoha also has some really good defenses, and would be able to block anything short of a Dragonslave, and might even be able to survive that as well. So I think it would be interesting. Also, Lina has Ragna Blade right? Or did that require the Blade of Light as well? It's been so long since I watched that series.

Ragna Blade would also give Nanoha's defences trouble. However, Nanoha has much greater speed and mobility than Lina, and has a bunch of tricks like attack drones, homing attacks, quasi-teleportation, bind spells, barrier-breaking spells, and delaying the activation of spells to use them as traps.

Lina does have the Ragna Blade, unlike the gigaslave it isn’t used with the sword of light. The novels do have Lina using the gigaslave for a test run and describe it basically disintegrating everything in a localize area, however the novels are so different from the anime in many important respects I’m not sure you can rely on them (and half of them aren’t even translated into English last I checked *sigh*).

So a Nanoha victory scenario looks like this: Lina casting spells left and right that would kill Nanoha, but she dodges them all, then her counter-attack breaks through Lina’s defenses.

Lina may surprise in the defensive arena however. Although often times it seems her opponents are just not that determined to kill her quickly, there may be enough times she has proven she is quick on her feat and can put up a force field of her own.

Sure, and Discord has shown it's possible to steal or block his magic as well. So it could be pretty interesting.

Ultimately I’d give it to Discord. Discord’s magic is only ever blocked by other extremely powerful magic. Bill gets outsmarted by a couple of ordinary preteen children and their friends. Discord, when he’s being serious, is the essence of unpredictable, and can switch up what he’s doing on a dime. Bill can be bound by agreement and time and again has proven that he is slow to adapt to a loss, and overcommits to particular strategies.

Regarding Tifa, I say they messed it up really badly by simply not looking at the things that Tifa beats. The giant robot that punched Yang through a pillar is basically a starting boss in Final Fantasy 7. You can also mention stuff like their ability to repeatedly get shot and hit by grenades and simply ignore the damage.

This is where an academic doing the analysis tend to diverge from ordinary people. While Tifa fought bosses that look like the Atlasian Prototype Paladin, they are not, nor do they even operate in the same universe. You want to tease out tests that will get you hard numbers then compare.

The argument isn’t Yang beat Paladin therefore beat Tifa. The argument is that Yang tanked a particular hit that can be estimated what the impact, and that Tifa’s Maximum force limit-break doesn’t reach that impact.

I don’t think this sort of analysis is all that determinative to comparing fictional character, both of which operate in universes that regularly defy the laws of physics. However, making real world physics calculations is the most objective way of judging these contests.

Making determinations by weaving together narratives without reference to real world physics...things get really dicy really quick.

What makes you think it can't be both? Different tactics in different videos.

So you are saying that ScrewAttack alternates between being fanboys picking the popular characters as winner for views and trolls picking the characters with the strongest fanbases to lose, again for views.

The problem with these strategies is they are complete opposites. Screw Attack would do just as well to flip a coin.

Again... I''m sure there's a good argument to be made about Superman being stronger than Goku... But DB didn't make it.

So tell me this argument, or at least the contours of what such an argument would look like.

[Forum Explorer]

Lina does have the Ragna Blade, unlike the gigaslave it isn’t used with the sword of light. The novels do have Lina using the gigaslave for a test run and describe it basically disintegrating everything in a localize area, however the novels are so different from the anime in many important respects I’m not sure you can rely on them (and half of them aren’t even translated into English last I checked *sigh*).

So a Nanoha victory scenario looks like this: Lina casting spells left and right that would kill Nanoha, but she dodges them all, then her counter-attack breaks through Lina’s defenses.

Lina may surprise in the defensive arena however. Although often times it seems her opponents are just not that determined to kill her quickly, there may be enough times she has proven she is quick on her feat and can put up a force field of her own.




Ultimately I’d give it to Discord. Discord’s magic is only ever blocked by other extremely powerful magic. Bill gets outsmarted by a couple of ordinary preteen children and their friends. Discord, when he’s being serious, is the essence of unpredictable, and can switch up what he’s doing on a dime. Bill can be bound by agreement and time and again has proven that he is slow to adapt to a loss, and overcommits to particular strategies.





This is where an academic doing the analysis tend to diverge from ordinary people. While Tifa fought bosses that look like the Atlasian Prototype Paladin, they are not, nor do they even operate in the same universe. You want to tease out tests that will get you hard numbers then compare.

The argument isn’t Yang beat Paladin therefore beat Tifa. The argument is that Yang tanked a particular hit that can be estimated what the impact, and that Tifa’s Maximum force limit-break doesn’t reach that impact.

I don’t think this sort of analysis is all that determinative to comparing fictional character, both of which operate in universes that regularly defy the laws of physics. However, making real world physics calculations is the most objective way of judging these contests.

Making determinations by weaving together narratives without reference to real world physics...things get really dicy really quick.




So you are saying that ScrewAttack alternates between being fanboys picking the popular characters as winner for views and trolls picking the characters with the strongest fanbases to lose, again for views.

The problem with these strategies is they are complete opposites. Screw Attack would do just as well to flip a coin.



So tell me this argument, or at least the contours of what such an argument would look like.

Maybe. Ultimately, I think my money is on Nanoha. She at her best at a range, and she knows it. And while Lina's raw power outmatches hers, she's no slouch, and her attacks are faster, more accurate, and in a wider variety. But I could see it being called either way.


Discord never really gets serious though. And I think Bill Cypher has actually fought more opponents. Discord just plays around with them.

Overall though, I think both would be really good matches because they are so close. I've got my opinons on who would win, but I'd like to see what they'd come up with.


You missed the point though. When I say something that resembles a Paladin was a starting boss I meant, that it was a weak opponent. The Tifa they used would one shot an opponent like that. And that's a useful test in a way. The power needed to break a machine in a single hit is well within Tifa's power. And that's just a basic punch. Her Limit Break is a lot more powerful, and could kill much tougher opponents in a single hit. I think (though I don't know for sure), that the Tifa they used could one-shot one of the Weapons, which are giant monsters who can crack the earth and shoot lasers that can level towns.

I mean, at the very least, her limit breaks involve picking up her opponent. So they could estimate the size of one of those monsters then calculate how much force it would take to actually do something like that.

Besides that, they really overestimated Yang. I mean, sure she can survive getting punched through a pillar. But as her fight with Neo showed, it's just as effective to just smack her around a bunch. If anything, Yang is more vulnerable to a combination of blows then to one big attack.

[Future Sword]

Is it fun, retreading the same handful of arguments over and over again?

[Celestia]

Is it fun, retreading the same handful of arguments over and over again?

Nothing gets nerds more aroused than repetition. Why do you think WoW is so popular?

[Lord Raziere]

Is it fun, retreading the same handful of arguments over and over again?

No. Its just that some questions that will never be answered keep clawing at peoples minds demanding to be answered, and Death Battle makes it worse by providing bad answers that only make the search for a good one more intense by making them reject the bad answer. its a curse of a gnawing question.

either that or its just something to talk about, you don't have any other topics you can think of to start and your bored so you do it to fill the time.

[Anteros]

I mean, it's a thread about Death Battle. We're talking about the topic. What else do you want to talk about? Sports?

[Knaight]

I mean, it's a thread about Death Battle. We're talking about the topic. What else do you want to talk about? Sports?

Sure. They're a great example of how a love of repetition isn't just a nerd thing, given that people will watch game after game of the same sport. Given the international popularity of soccer alone I'm willing to call it evidence of a wide scale human phenomenon.

[Lemmy]

So you are saying that ScrewAttack alternates between being fanboys picking the popular characters as winner for views and trolls picking the characters with the strongest fanbases to lose, again for views.

The problem with these strategies is they are complete opposites. Screw Attack would do just as well to flip a coin.

Not really... They could simply decide what is more fitting for each video. But if you want my opinion, I'd say "trolling for views" wasn't a thing, at least most of the time... It's usually just favoritism and/or incompetence. But someone here pointed out that they basically admitted to doing it. Specially with DBZ characters.

So tell me this argument, or at least the contours of what such an argument would look like.

I don't know. Considering what Z-warriors could do as early as the Vegeta saga (Piccolo could easily destroy the moon. Nappa annihilated cities. Vegeta blasted planets without effort) and how much more powerful they've grown since, I don't think Superman could beat Goku... But I admit it's unclear enough that a well-made argument could possibly be made. DB simply didn't make it. Starting with them using an amalgamation of different versions of Superman and acting like it's the same character. And both characters have wildly inconsistent power descriptions and depictions (although Goku can at least claim to be the same version of the character... Most of the time, anyway. GT and Super should be mutually exclusive. Most of the movies too, since all of them (except for Trunks and Bardock specials) have at least one little detail that excludes them from the main time-line).

In any case, this have been debated to death. As others pointed out, all we're doing is walk in circles... Let's move on to something else.

[Prime32]

Maybe. Ultimately, I think my money is on Nanoha. She at her best at a range, and she knows it. And while Lina's raw power outmatches hers, she's no slouch, and her attacks are faster, more accurate, and in a wider variety. But I could see it being called either way.

Nanoha + Lina, versus Negi Springfield. Bear in mind that post-series Negi passively absorbs mana from the environment, meaning Nanoha can't use Starlight Breaker.

[Forum Explorer]

Nanoha + Lina, versus Negi Springfield. Bear in mind that post-series Negi passively absorbs mana from the environment, meaning Nanoha can't use Starlight Breaker.

What, Nanoha and Lina on a team? I think I'd give it to Nanoha + Lina, because they've got a really easy winning combo. Nanoha lands a bind then Lina uses Ragna Blade.

If it's a free for all, then I don't know.

[Rynjin]

I don't know. Considering what Z-warriors could do as early as the Vegeta saga (Piccolo could easily destroy the moon. Nappa annihilated cities. Vegeta blasted planets without effort) and how much more powerful they've grown since, I don't think Superman could beat Goku... But I admit it's unclear enough that a well-made argument could possibly be made. DB simply didn't make it. Starting with them using an amalgamation of different versions of Superman and acting like it's the same character. And both characters have wildly inconsistent power descriptions and depictions (although Goku can at least claim to be the same version of the character... Most of the time, anyway. GT and Super should be mutually exclusive. Most of the movies too, since all of them (except for Trunks and Bardock specials) have at least one little detail that excludes them from the main time-line).

I mean, not just the Saiyan Saga. Moon destroying was a thing Roshi casually did very early on in Dragonball. That's kind of the issue with Dragonball power scaling (as Plague of Gripes puts it so neatly in this video): Feats haven't really increased over the years, people have just been INFORMED to be stronger over time.

(Also the Bardock special is unfortunately non-canon now that Episode of Bardock was written. Though on the bright side that movie where Bardock goes back in time and becomes the progenitor of the Saiyan race is now gone too.)

[Rater202]

The Bardock special was never canon--only Bardock himself was. Toriyama had no input on it.

We didn't have "canon" Bardock until Toriyama wrote Dragon Ball Minus... which I think you're confusing for Episode of Bardock(which was the thing where Bardock goes back in time and becomes the first Super Saiyan)

[Rynjin]

The Bardock special was never canon--only Bardock himself was. Toriyama had no input on it.

We didn't have "canon" Bardock until Toriyama wrote Dragon Ball Minus... which I think you're confusing for Episode of Bardock(which was the thing where Bardock goes back in time and becomes the first Super Saiyan)

Ehhh, I'd call the Bardock special "canon enough" before Dragonball Minus (thanks for the correction). Toriyama said he really liked it, and it kinda permeated the fandom to a degree many canon things haven't.

I think that's why Minus bothered so many people.

[Reddish Mage]

[QUOTE=Forum Explorer;22663828]Discord never really gets serious though. And I think Bill Cypher has actually fought more opponents. Discord just plays around with them.


You missed the point though. When I say something that resembles a Paladin was a starting boss I meant, that it was a weak opponent. The Tifa they used would one shot an opponent like that. And that's a useful test in a way. The power needed to break a machine in a single hit is well within Tifa's power. And that's just a basic punch. Her Limit Break is a lot more powerful, and could kill much tougher opponents in a single hit. I think (though I don't know for sure), that the Tifa they used could one-shot one of the Weapons, which are giant monsters who can crack the earth and shoot lasers that can level towns.

I mean, at the very least, her limit breaks involve picking up her opponent. So they could estimate the size of one of those monsters then calculate how much force it would take to actually do something like that.

Besides that, they really overestimated Yang. I mean, sure she can survive getting punched through a pillar. But as her fight with Neo showed, it's just as effective to just smack her around a bunch. If anything, Yang is more vulnerable to a combination of blows then to one big attack.

Neo struck Yang exactly once during that fight, and was otherwise on the defensive. They explained in the commentary that "Yang lost all her hit points in that one attack." Also Yang exhuasted herself beforehand with heavy attacks that just couldn't land.

All the Neo fight proves is that Neo can strike harder than the Paladin, and can dodge Yang.

I think the flashy graphics for Tifa and the rest mean something. If you watched FF battles it looks like one of these fighters can tank and deal absurd amounts of punishment, and yes Tifa can lift whatever opponent (I still don't know if that makes her attacks more powerful than a bodyslam that takes out a support girder). However, Advent Children Tifa did not go near that level in terms of destruction.

Basically, most of the time Yang doesn't look like she's fighting on the scale that FF characters look like they are doing in the Battle screens, but Screw Attack has never treated what can happen on those screens with the degree of seriousness I would have done.

So I agree with you Tifa should probably win this one. But I'm not convinced that they don't have a good faith argument that Yang could win and I agree their approach of taking Yang's max endurance, and comparing to Tifa's max "unaided" striking power.

Although I wouldn't have gimped Tifa, I think they are upfront they are not giving her the best equipment and materia should could have used for the fight, and this is consistent with how they treated Cloud.

Not really... They could simply decide what is more fitting for each video. But if you want my opinion, I'd say "trolling for views" wasn't a thing, at least most of the time... It's usually just favoritism and/or incompetence. But someone here pointed out that they basically admitted to doing it. Specially with DBZ characters.

I don't think anyone here said that Screw Attack admitted doing that. They said the rematch was admittedly for the view. If Screw Attack ever clearly admitted to trolling or picking winners for bad-faith reasons, reasons not having to do with the attributes of the fighters, I'd like to know that.

I don't know. Considering what Z-warriors could do as early as the Vegeta saga (Piccolo could easily destroy the moon. Nappa annihilated cities. Vegeta blasted planets without effort) and how much more powerful they've grown since, I don't think Superman could beat Goku... But I admit it's unclear enough that a well-made argument could possibly be made. DB simply didn't make it. Starting with them using an amalgamation of different versions of Superman and acting like it's the same character. And both characters have wildly inconsistent power descriptions and depictions (although Goku can at least claim to be the same version of the character... Most of the time, anyway. GT and Super should be mutually exclusive. Most of the movies too, since all of them (except for Trunks and Bardock specials) have at least one little detail that excludes them from the main time-line).

In any case, this have been debated to death. As others pointed out, all we're doing is walk in circles... Let's move on to something else.

Not especially interested in Superman v Goku at this point either.

I am interested in your line of attack saying that one character has consistent characterattributes and one does not.

There are certain things I think that can be said as fundamental to analyzing superpowered individuals and I would put this forth as fundamental number one.

1. None of these characters have consistent characterization. What their powers do, by nature, is break the laws of physics, usually in truly absurd ways that cannot really be appreciated without getting into the physics of what they do. Even those characters that have a relatively firm "can jump to this many feet" "can give out so many kjoules of power" "fly at x speed" or so forth, are violating the laws of physics by doing so with bodies that are obviously not designed to do that sort of thing.
   
   However, these stories are not serious about physics. As a result, these stories are going to contradict themselves all the time about what the characters can and cannot accomplish with their powers.

[Mato]

No. Its just that some questions that will never be answered

Here, I can answer one of those for you.

Spoiler

Show

In the official crossovers, Thor's hammer is more powerful than Wonder Women ever was.

So I guess we can stop hearing about that one?

[Lemmy]

I mean, not just the Saiyan Saga. Moon destroying was a thing Roshi casually did very early on in Dragonball. That's kind of the issue with Dragonball power scaling (as Plague of Gripes puts it so neatly in this video): Feats haven't really increased over the years, people have just been INFORMED to be stronger over time.

Probably because it's difficult to do more than break a whole planet without running out of a scenery for the story to take place... And characters are supposed to be controlling their energy so that they don't explode everything around them (and even then, Goku and Buu had to be transported away to particularly tough planet so that their fight didn't accidentally destroy Earth).

Luckily, much like lava and space travel, most writers don't understand (or remember/care about) the physical consequences of having objects moving at mach-207, so shock waves and burning atmosphere aren't a thing in most super-powered series... Except in very dramatic moments, of course.

[Reddish Mage]

Here, I can answer one of those for you.

Spoiler

Show

In the official crossovers, Thor's hammer is more powerful than Wonder Women ever was.

So I guess we can stop hearing about that one?

Speaking of inconsistent characterization. That Wonder Woman you lovingly link to was a mere clay statue brought to life by Zues.

The current WW is half deity daughter of Zeus herself, and she kills full gods.

lLuckily, much like lava and space travel, most writers don't understand (or remember/care about) the physical consequences of having objects moving at mach-207, so shock waves and burning atmosphere aren't a thing in most super-powered series... Except in very dramatic moments, of course.

I understand space travel (or anything set in space) is all messed up but what is the lava thing?

[Lord Raziere]

Probably because it's difficult to do more than break a whole planet without running out of a scenery for the story to take place... And characters are supposed to be controlling their energy so that they don't explode everything around them (and even then, Goku and Buu had to be transported away to particularly tough planet so that their fight didn't accidentally destroy Earth).

Zen-Oh did actually destroy all of Trunk's timeline in DB Super. So if we want more of those high level destruction feats shown, we'll need more Future Trunks Saga type of stuff.

Really, this is why we should have more fights taking in place in alternate timelines: so that more destruction can be shown without it impacting Earth. the Time Patrol doesn't make use of the fact that most of the timelines in its continuity are completely expendable because they are all things that aren't supposed to happen.

[Lemmy]

I understand space travel (or anything set in space) is all messed up but what is the lava thing?

Ever notice how lava in TV shows/games is usually...

A- Completely liquid. About as dense as water?
B- Only harmful if you touch it?

Turns out that lava is generally much more dense than what is usually portrayed... And it's hot enough that just being close to it will burn stuff. But air is apparently immune to heat (unless there's a balloon or something) and heat transfer by radiation is nearly always completely ignored... Unless it's the Sun or someone trying to warm up around a fireplace.

[Lemmy]

Zen-Oh did actually destroy all of Trunk's timeline in DB Super. So if we want more of those high level destruction feats shown, we'll need more Future Trunks Saga type of stuff.

Really, this is why we should have more fights taking in place in alternate timelines: so that more destruction can be shown without it impacting Earth. the Time Patrol doesn't make use of the fact that most of the timelines in its continuity are completely expendable because they are all things that aren't supposed to happen.

Yeah... But Zen-Oh is weird. His erasing power isn't a feat of raw strength/power, but an overpowered unique ability he has. I think he's physically weaker than pretty much every fighter in the tournament, but is immortal (or very resilient) and has the "Erase Anything" cheat code.

[Prime32]

What, Nanoha and Lina on a team? I think I'd give it to Nanoha + Lina, because they've got a really easy winning combo. Nanoha lands a bind then Lina uses Ragna Blade.

Three main points in Negi's favour:

• In Raiten Taisou form, Negi can discorporate parts of his body into lightning, which seems effective against at least some of Nanoha's bindings. It also lets him create clones of himself, which make single-target magic less reliable.
• Magia Erebea is likely capable of absorbing Ragna Blade/Giga Slave, and even equipping them. This might result in Negi getting possessed by the Lord of Nightmares, but that still counts as a win.
• ACHOO!

Yeah... But Zen-Oh is weird. His erasing power isn't a feat of raw strength/power, but an overpowered unique ability he has. I think he's physically weaker than pretty much every fighter in the tournament, but is immortal (or very resilient) and has the "Erase Anything" cheat code.

We don't even know if he's resilient, since no one's tried to attack him, just that he's been alive for a long time. IIRC he has trouble following what some of the stronger fighters are doing (which in DB is linked to power level), so for all we know Hit could take him out.

[Lord Raziere]

Yeah... But Zen-Oh is weird. His erasing power isn't a feat of raw strength/power, but an overpowered unique ability he has. I think he's physically weaker than pretty much every fighter in the tournament, but is immortal (or very resilient) and has the "Erase Anything" cheat code.

At the same time......Goku and Beerus did send shockwaves throughout their entire universe when they clashed. thats pretty powerful. and thats when they're not trying to destroy the universe.

[Lemmy]

We don't even know if he's resilient, since no one's tried to attack him, just that he's been alive for a long time. IIRC he has trouble following what some of the stronger fighters are doing (which in DB is linked to power level), so for all we know Hit could take him out.

Well... He did survive in an erased timeline without any problem, so there's that...

[Keltest]

At the same time......Goku and Beerus did send shockwaves throughout their entire universe when they clashed. thats pretty powerful. and thats when they're not trying to destroy the universe.

Given that everything in the Dragonball universe seems to be made of Styrofoam, that is perhaps a less impressive feat than it sounds at first. Honestly that's the biggest problem with comparing Dragonball to anything: the levels of power allegedly thrown around just don't translate into the effects they should.

[Lord Raziere]

Given that everything in the Dragonball universe seems to be made of Styrofoam, that is perhaps a less impressive feat than it sounds at first. Honestly that's the biggest problem with comparing Dragonball to anything: the levels of power allegedly thrown around just don't translate into the effects they should.

Its not made of styrofoam! DC is just as high powered if not more, so there is just as much justification for it being made of styrofoam to! meaning any high-powered unvierse could just be as weak as another universe because of absurd fragility!

they do translate, its just that they aren't incompetent people who actually allow such destruction to happen- unlike other heroes. because y'know, KI CONTROL. the thing that keeps the fighting SAFER. which is y'know, THE EXACT THE SAME THING SUPERMAN DOES, BUT WITH EVERYONE.

So. yeah, keep casting doubt DBZ for having ENTIRE CASTS OF PEOPLE being responsible as FREAKING SUPERMAN in how they fight. keep doing that, see where it gets you.

[Lemmy]

Given that everything in the Dragonball universe seems to be made of Styrofoam, that is perhaps a less impressive feat than it sounds at first. Honestly that's the biggest problem with comparing Dragonball to anything: the levels of power allegedly thrown around just don't translate into the effects they should.

The same goes for... Well... Every media with super-powered characters, really.

Superman doesn't destroy the city with shock waves or burns the atmosphere every time he flies/punches at the speed of light... Nor does any other super-strong/fast character. Rocks and concrete break like they are made of styrofoam in approximately Every Super-Power Action Series Ever. Steel beams have been bent like low quality plastic by nearly every character with even slightly super-human strength.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Raziere.

[Keltest]

Its not made of styrofoam! DC is just as high powered if not more, so there is just as much justification for it being made of styrofoam to! meaning any high-powered unvierse could just be as weak as another universe because of absurd fragility!

they do translate, its just that they aren't incompetent people who actually allow such destruction to happen- unlike other heroes. because y'know, KI CONTROL. the thing that keeps the fighting SAFER. which is y'know, THE EXACT THE SAME THING SUPERMAN DOES, BUT WITH EVERYONE.

So. yeah, keep casting doubt DBZ for having ENTIRE CASTS OF PEOPLE being responsible as FREAKING SUPERMAN in how they fight. keep doing that, see where it gets you.

I'm sorry, but if you say "this ability destroys planets" and then go on and hit somebody with it, and the planet doesn't get destroyed, you don't get to pretend youre playing by the same rules. When people are regularly throwing around planet destroying force, you have to question if the universe even has any right to exist in the first place.

Furthermore, you cant simultaneously be pulling your punches AND increasing your power over time to meet the latest threat.

[Lord Raziere]

The same goes for... Well... Every media with super-powered characters, really.

Superman doesn't destroy the city with shock waves every time he flies/punches at the speed of light... Nor does any other super-strong/fast character. Rocks and concrete break like they are made of styrofoam in approximately Every Super-Power Action Series Ever. Steel beams have been bent like low quality plastic by nearly every character with even slightly super-human strength.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Raziere.

Yeah if we're just going to doubt the power of these super-powered people entirely and say that its all just completely fragile and the universe just incredibly weak, then there is nothing saying that in a lower-powered setting is actually a much more durable, thick universe, so that all characters are the same level of power, thus nothing saying that some foe like Sans or Shikamaru can't just take out Superman or Goku easily because they're just as good powerful fighters but not in a universe of styrofoam, and that these low-powered characters can in fact just go to the more fragile universe and be just as powerful as superman or Goku without any training.

which is ridiculous.

I'm sorry, but if you say "this ability destroys planets" and then go on and hit somebody with it, and the planet doesn't get destroyed, you don't get to pretend youre playing by the same rules. When people are regularly throwing around planet destroying force, you have to question if the universe even has any right to exist in the first place.

Furthermore, you cant simultaneously be pulling your punches AND increasing your power over time to meet the latest threat.

So Sans can take out Superman then?

only if your incompetent. you can't be in control while having more power? thats on YOU. get good scrub. marital arts is all about controlling your power, big burly guys who just destroy? are bad martial artists. people who show off their power instead of hiding it until needed? bad martial artists. the more hidden you can be with your power, the better, thats just good logical sense.