Death Battle III Not Even Internally Consistent

[Reddish Mage]

He was told about this flaw one time in one story, immediately went on not one, but two journeys of personal reflection. And the concept has never been brought up again. There is no reason to believe that this concept was anything more than a one time thing since no other writer has ever commented on it.

Are you referring to Goku’s tendency to strengthen his enemies, and refrain from finishing them off so they can get stronger (something he did repeatedly and on full display during ToP), or Thanos’ tendency to self-destruct.

The latter sounds like something brought up once that could provoke a journey of self-reflection.

[Devonix]

Are you referring to Goku’s tendency to strengthen his enemies, and refrain from finishing them off so they can get stronger (something he did repeatedly and on full display during ToP), or Thanos’ tendency to self-destruct.

The latter sounds like something brought up once that could provoke a journey of self-reflection.

I'm talking about Thanos' losses coming from his own desire to lose. It was brought up one time, in one story, by one writer. The character then went on a journey of self reflection, and the concept was never once brought up again.

[Keltest]

Yeah, I don't think we can say Thanos would lose because he subconsciously self-sabotages. That's sort of like saying that Batman loses because he doesn't kill; even if its true, its something DB needs to ignore for the fundamental premise to work at all. Thanos is trying to legitimately win and kill his opponent. He will continue to escalate as needed until the fight is over.

[Devonix]

Yeah, I don't think we can say Thanos would lose because he subconsciously self-sabotages. That's sort of like saying that Batman loses because he doesn't kill; even if its true, its something DB needs to ignore for the fundamental premise to work at all. Thanos is trying to legitimately win and kill his opponent. He will continue to escalate as needed until the fight is over.

Hell, Cosmic marvel in general is almost unrecognizable to those stories now.

[Anteros]

Yeah, I don't think we can say Thanos would lose because he subconsciously self-sabotages. That's sort of like saying that Batman loses because he doesn't kill; even if its true, its something DB needs to ignore for the fundamental premise to work at all. Thanos is trying to legitimately win and kill his opponent. He will continue to escalate as needed until the fight is over.

Ok. Well if we're ignoring character aspects in favor of saying they're bloodlusted and will go for the kill then we can ignore Goku's tendency to let his opponent power up too. Of course, this whole fight was just a joke premise anyway, so I don't know why we're still on about it.

Someone needs to make a new thread btw. I'd do it, but I'd hate for someone to mistake my contributions to these discussions as productive in any way.

[Keltest]

Ok. Well if we're ignoring character aspects in favor of saying they're bloodlusted and will go for the kill then we can ignore Goku's tendency to let his opponent power up too. Of course, this whole fight was just a joke premise anyway, so I don't know why we're still on about it.

Someone needs to make a new thread btw. I'd do it, but I'd hate for someone to mistake my contributions to these discussions as productive in any way.

Theres a difference between "this character has a hangup that would prevent him from winning under any circumstances no matter who he fought" and "this character has a hangup that makes it harder for him to win."

[Devonix]

Theres a difference between "this character has a hangup that would prevent him from winning under any circumstances no matter who he fought" and "this character has a hangup that makes it harder for him to win."

There's also a difference between. " This one writer said this one thing, in this one story. written almost 30 years ago. That no other writer ever really used again.

And something that has existed as a core part of a character almost since creation and has remained consistent throughout the character's history.

[Reddish Mage]

Someone needs to make a new thread btw. I'd do it, but I'd hate for someone to mistake my contributions to these discussions as productive in any way.

We need to agree on a thread title. The only thing that has any votes is "Goku vs Superman lies dead but dreaming"

I made some other suggestions of which I prefer "Bloodshed, Mayhem, Confusion and occasionally polite discussion."

[Kitten Champion]

In the Infinity Gauntlet, it's not that Thanos has an innate desire to lose. It's that he subconsciously believes he's unworthy of being this GOD because he has this immense self-hatred underlying his whole character and motivation.

The thing about the Infinity Gauntlet, it begins with Thanos having won. He could've snapped his fingers and gotten literally whatever result he wanted from the first page. The problem at the core of that comic wasn't "can these heroes, gods, and personifications of the very nature of the Universe defeat him?" Because no, they couldn't regardless of whatever impression the comic attempts to give otherwise. The real central question was, "what does he want?"

Which ultimately, he didn't really have an answer for. He thought he'd be content with winning Death's heart, but that was a delusion - he's not Deadpool after all,-Once that became clear to him - that all his grand gestures and all this power he acquired were meaningless - what was left? To control the universe? To what end? He'd still be Thanos and Thanos doesn't like Thanos no matter his Power.

So, why not be a farmer?

[Mato]

We need to agree on a thread title. The only thing that has any votes is "Goku vs Superman lies dead but dreaming"

Maybe less Goku vs Sups and more directed at DB in particular. Like
Death Battle IV - Where Source Materials Always Lose

We're always going to revisit certain fights, and you guys are getting better at spinning off your own fights within this thread, but the constant theme is DB does a terrible job. Their arguments are often inconsistent, which led to this thread title, but as we seen in Ichigo vs Naruto they really do pick the winner fighter before they even start researching the characters and through incipient/excipient bias they always confirm their thoughts on the matter. It's as if the source material doesn't really matter to them and most of the corrections in this thread about DB, the series and not a single episode, are about the things they missed.

[Devonix]

Maybe less Goku vs Sups and more directed at DB in particular. Like
Death Battle IV - Where Source Materials Always Lose

We're always going to revisit certain fights, and you guys are getting better at spinning off your own fights within this thread, but the constant theme is DB does a terrible job. Their arguments are often inconsistent, which led to this thread title, but as we seen in Ichigo vs Naruto they really do pick the winner fighter before they even start researching the characters and through incipient/excipient bias they always confirm their thoughts on the matter. It's as if the source material doesn't really matter to them and most of the corrections in this thread about DB, the series and not a single episode, are about the things they missed.

I still refuse to believe that they decide the victor before doing the analysis. If you want to go ahead.

[Lemmy]

Maybe less Goku vs Sups and more directed at DB in particular. Like
Death Battle IV - Where Source Materials Always Lose

I like this one. It's simple and funny... I never liked overly long thread titles.

[Lemmy]

On the Thanos vs Goku issue... I think you're taking Goku pendant for fighting stronger opponents waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too far.

I'd like to point out that while Goku enjoys fighting stronger enemies, he only really lets opponents become stronger when he's sure pose no threat to others. Other than Vegeta (who was completely defeated) and Freeza (who Goku thought no longer posed a threat to anyone, since Goku himself had become much stronger than him), Goku never lets his enemies just become stronger... He doesn't just let Android 19 absorb his energy, for example, he tells Gohan to finish the fight already when Gohan is toying with Cell... He doesn't just let Majin Buu absorb a bunch of people to fight a stronger opponent (and even releases the already absorbed Z-warriors, thus making Majin Buu weaker).

Goku also displays an aversion to cheating. When Frost is caught using a weapon, Goku calls it "fighting dirty" and is visibly bothered by supposedly-good-guy Frost having done it. When Zamasu fuses, Goku and Vegeta aren't happy... In fact, they are pretty concerned.

Long story short: Goku generally sees using weapons as cheating and wouldn't let an opponent become stronger if he thinks the opponent is still a threat to others... And if a poisonous needle is seeing as cheating, the infinity gauntlet definitely is.

[Mato]

I still refuse to believe that they decide the victor before doing the analysis. If you want to go ahead.

Why thank you for your lordly permission to accept discussion video on Naruto and Ichigo where they admitted to it.

[Devonix]

Why thank you for your lordly permission to accept discussion video on Naruto and Ichigo where they admitted to it.

I try to help.

[Forum Explorer]

Ins't that explicitly becuase Shirou doesn't have enough mana to support her full power? Like, once Rin becomes her Master in UBW or gets the porojected Caliborn in Fate(which is alsmist as effective as Escalibur but much less mana intensive and more focused) she becomes much more effective.

It's the same case with Rider--Medusa is depicted as being pathetically weak by Servant standards, needing to eat dozens of souls just to compete... Becuase Shinji has literally no mana and can't sustain her at all. In HF when we see her with Sakura as her Master, she's suddenly one of the strongest servants.

She still needed her noble Phantasm to beat !Assassin in that state. The projected Caliborn is a noble Phantasm as well.

Why thank you for your lordly permission to accept discussion video on Naruto and Ichigo where they admitted to it.

Link?

[Rater202]

She still needed her noble Phantasm to beat !Assassin in that state. The projected Caliborn is a noble Phantasm as well.



Link?

...Wait. Noble Phantasms are part of a Servants power set. Why does using her own powers count against her?

[Forum Explorer]

...Wait. Noble Phantasms are part of a Servants power set. Why does using her own powers count against her?

It doesn't sorta. They just hype up how Saber is the absolute best in close combat because she is so skilled, but she never actually wins in close combat by pure skill. She even loses to Caster's master. Frig, she even loses to Shirou in HF if you make that choice.

[Rater202]

It doesn't sorta. They just hype up how Saber is the absolute best in close combat because she is so skilled, but she never actually wins in close combat by pure skill. She even loses to Caster's master. Frig, she even loses to Shirou in HF if you make that choice.

Saber is the best in close Combat becuase 1: A Saber must be a mster of swordsmanship, and 2: Saber's tend to wield powerful magical swords.

Against False Assassin, a swordsman who is literally impossible good at Swordsmanship, and magical martial artist, she would of course need both her skill and her ridiculously powerful magic sword.

And Shirou in HF is at a point where he's literally made of thousands of holy and demonic swords after becoming part Servant and part of his power set is being almost if not equally skilled to every swordwielder who'se sword he's ever scene and he'd previously coppied the sword skills of Hercules to the point of being able to replicate a purly skill based Noble Phantasm, and In-Universe Hercules is the most skilled at literally every form of bombat ever.

[Forum Explorer]

Saber is the best in close Combat becuase 1: A Saber must be a mster of swordsmanship, and 2: Saber's tend to wield powerful magical swords.

Against False Assassin, a swordsman who is literally impossible good at Swordsmanship, and magical martial artist, she would of course need both her skill and her ridiculously powerful magic sword.

And Shirou in HF is at a point where he's literally made of thousands of holy and demonic swords after becoming part Servant and part of his power set is being almost if not equally skilled to every swordwielder who'se sword he's ever scene and he'd previously coppied the sword skills of Hercules to the point of being able to replicate a purly skill based Noble Phantasm, and In-Universe Hercules is the most skilled at literally every form of bombat ever.

Sure sure, all of that's true. It's just hilarious how much she's hyped up to be the end all of close combat, and pretty much can't win a fight without using Excalibur.

[Rater202]

Sure sure, all of that's true. It's just hilarious how much she's hyped up to be the end all of close combat, and pretty much can't win a fight without using Excalibur.

You are a master swordsman.

How well can you do without your sword?

[Forum Explorer]

You are a master swordsman.

How well can you do without your sword?

You know what I mean, or at least I hope you do.

But to clarify, to win without using it's full power.

[Lemmy]

Saber (Artoria) isn't particularly skilled compared to other servants (in fact, quite a few are shown to be better fighters than her)... But she has two absurdly powerful noble phantasms: Excalibur and Avalon (although she lost the latter). Not only that, but the Saber class is often considered to be the most powerful (I'm not sure why, though. I think it gets good class bonuses, like high magic resistance and luck, ability to ride and vehicle or beast, etc).

[Mato]

Link?

Link.

Not only that, but the Saber class is often considered to be the most powerful (I'm not sure why, though. I think it gets good class bonuses, like high magic resistance and luck, ability to ride and vehicle or beast, etc).

I think it's more of Miss variant Pendragon, as a series mascot, is the reason why the class seems so good. The class it's self only grants magic resistance (just about all of them do) & riding, but "Saber" also normally has high luck & instinct as an excuse for plot powers allowing her to pick the best actions and live through the unsurvivable. Plus she comes with an A++ ranked nuke and an uber healing item follows her around. Her mana burst is almost always A ranked allowing her to burn mana for huge bursts of speed/defense too. If you were a Wizard looking at her, she offers everything you lack and you can dump your mana/seals into her to gain even more.

Also we have had two votes for Death Battle IV - Where Source Materials Always Lose & Death Battle IV: Superman vs Goku lies dead but dreaming. The first one is a little more enduring and applies to more than just two videos but w/e.

[Devonix]

Link.

I think it's more of Miss variant Pendragon, as a series mascot, is the reason why the class seems so good. The class it's self only grants magic resistance (just about all of them do) & riding, but "Saber" also normally has high luck & instinct as an excuse for plot powers allowing her to pick the best actions and live through the unsurvivable. Plus she comes with an A++ ranked nuke and an uber healing item follows her around. Her mana burst is almost always A ranked allowing her to burn mana for huge bursts of speed/defense too. If you were a Wizard looking at her, she offers everything you lack and you can dump your mana/seals into her to gain even more.

Also we have had two votes for Death Battle IV - Where Source Materials Always Lose & Death Battle IV: Superman vs Goku lies dead but dreaming. The first one is a little more enduring and applies to more than just two videos but w/e.

The video said that they had expectations that one character would win. You always go into a debate with expectations.

[Mato]

The video said that they had expectations that one character would win. You always go into a debate with expectations.

Yeah, like my expectation that my comment would be dismissed for some frivolous reason and you would continue your day thinking you were right all along. And your expectation was you were right all along and nothing I would post could change that.

Strangely the outcomes that that all three of us expected came true. It's eerie. It's just like how a starting point of Naruto wins but how badly does Ichigo fail? is totally the same thing as asking who would win? but expectations to win & picked to win are separated by a fifty mile river. I think there is a term for this and I said it before but idk, it's hard to see.

[Devonix]

Yeah, like my expectation that my comment would be dismissed for some frivolous reason and you would continue your day thinking you were right all along. And your expectation was you were right all along and nothing I would post could change that.

Strangely the outcomes that that all three of us expected came true. It's eerie. It's just like how a starting point of Naruto wins but how badly does Ichigo fail? is totally the same thing as asking who would win? but expectations to win & picked to win are separated by a fifty mile river. I think there is a term for this and I said it before but idk, it's hard to see.

So what you are saying is that they go into every debate picking the winner before doing research and never have their minds changed while researching a character. Is that what you believe?

[Mato]

So what you are saying is that they go into every debate picking the winner before doing research and never have their minds changed while researching a character. Is that what you believe?

Not every battle outcome is expressly chosen before hand for marketing purposes, not every single winner is intentionally picked before hand, and not every single winner wins as the result of incipient bias. Totalitarian opinions without exceptions are for simpletons. But I did say in all of those cases the source material can be considered the loser.

I also feel like you moved from trying to claim you were right to exclusively attacking my opinion in an effort to make it seems like I am losing. Did you realize the impossibility of you trying to prove every single Death Battle was done in a fair neutral regard or did something the four threads that can be found in just this forum give you the idea otherwise?

[Devonix]

Not every battle outcome is expressly chosen before hand for marketing purposes, not every single winner is intentionally picked before hand, and not every single winner wins as the result of incipient bias. Totalitarian opinions without exceptions are for simpletons. But I did say in all of those cases the source material can be considered the loser.

I also feel like you moved from trying to claim you were right to exclusively attacking my opinion in an effort to make it seems like I am losing. Did you realize the impossibility of you trying to prove every single Death Battle was done in a fair neutral regard or did something the four threads that can be found in just this forum give you the idea otherwise?

No I still believe that the matchups are fair. That doesn't mean that they are always right, I just don't believe that they are rigged. And I haven't changed my stance on that. I'm still arguing the exact same point I always have.

[Rater202]

At least one person on the Kingdom Hearts thread on Spacebattles has said that they'll finally believe that Death Battles isn't making fair judgements if they 1: Limit Sora exclusivly to his game 1 move set and 2: Sora loses but would have won if they'd let him have an abillity from one of the other games.

I am inclined to agree that this would be solid proof that DB rigs the fights, and since the Sora intro video only has content frm KHI.

BTW, throw my vote in for The Source Material loses.