Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

[rferries]

Aaaaargh the tension! Anyways, three things:

1) Roy's sword allowed him to heal even by striking a living target (Haley). Not much to go on since it's already a homebrew item.

2) Roy felt that the vampiric gaze could be dispelled - either he blew a Knowledge or Spellcraft check or GITP has a houserule in this event, since the gaze is a supernatural ability and therefore not subject to dispelling by RAW.

Bonus: Greg's gaze DC is DC 18 maximum, as follows:

Durkon's Charisma was <10, +4 for being a vampire: <14, so max of a +1 Cha bonus for Greg.

Greg's level is 15.

DC 10 + 1/2 level + Cha bonus = = 10 +7 +1 = DC 18

3) Hilgya has cast another empowered flame strike, meaning she is either 14th+ level, has Wis 24 or higher, or there's a GITP houserule allows her to prepare a metamagic domain spell in her domain slots (she has currently cast greater scrying and 2 empowered flame strikes, for a total of 3 7th-level spells).

[EmperorSarda]

Isn't the Vampiric gaze save a Will DC roll? So it'd be wisdom, not charisma, right?

[rferries]

That said, the whole argument seems invalid to me. The order "come over here" is not against anyone's nature. Taking a baby from a dominated person is not an order, it is an action. The domination only allows a new save is given an order against one's nature. Otherwise, they only perform the action commanded "to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival". Holding onto a baby is not "necessary for day-to-day survival", and thus would not resist.

I'd say that's debatable by RAW, but as it happens we already have in-comic proof that it's not the case. Note that even while dominated, Hilgya still shields the baby's eyes whenever she casts flame strike - by your logic she should just cast the spell without taking the effort to protect him.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Aaaaargh the tension! Anyways, three things:

1) Roy's sword allowed him to heal even by striking a living target (Haley). Not much to go on since it's already a homebrew item.

2) Roy felt that the vampiric gaze could be dispelled - either he blew a Knowledge or Spellcraft check or GITP has a houserule in this event, since the gaze is a supernatural ability and therefore not subject to dispelling by RAW.

Bonus: Greg's gaze DC is DC 18 maximum, as follows:

Durkon's Charisma was <10, +4 for being a vampire: <14, so max of a +1 Cha bonus for Greg.

Greg's level is 15.

DC 10 + 1/2 level + Cha bonus = = 10 +7 +1 = DC 18

3) Hilgya has cast another empowered flame strike, meaning she is either 14th+ level, has Wis 24 or higher, or there's a GITP houserule allows her to prepare a metamagic domain spell in her domain slots (she has currently cast greater scrying and 2 empowered flame strikes, for a total of 3 7th-level spells).

Minor correction in his Domination DC; it's based off of Dominate Person and thus uses 15+ Cha mod for DC. This is a general rule for DC's when an ability references a specific spell. So his DC is 16 at best.

Isn't the Vampiric gaze save a Will DC roll? So it'd be wisdom, not charisma, right?

For Hilgya (or anyone else making the save), it means a Will save using Wisdom as a bonus. For Durkon*, it is a special ability that doesn't specify what Ability Score it uses to calculate it's DC so it defaults to Charisma.

[Jasdoif]

Minor correction in his Domination DC; it's based off of Dominate Person and thus uses 15+ Cha mod for DC. This is a general rule for DC's when an ability references a specific spell. So his DC is 16 at best.

For Hilgya (or anyone else making the save), it means a Will save using Wisdom as a bonus. For Durkon*, it is a special ability that doesn't specify what Ability Score it uses to calculate it's DC so it defaults to Charisma.

The DC is specified, actually:

Special Attacks

A vampire retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains those described below. Saves have a DC of 10 + ½ vampire’s HD + vampire’s Cha modifier unless noted otherwise.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'd say that's debatable by RAW, but as it happens we already have in-comic proof that it's not the case. Note that even while dominated, Hilgya still shields the baby's eyes whenever she casts flame strike - by your logic she should just cast the spell without taking the effort to protect him.

You may want to re-read the latest comic. She did not shield Kudzu's eyes. Whatever point you think you were making, it is invalid. Not that I think it would make a lick of difference, since an attack involves being given an order, while taking the baby from her continues to not involve an order.

GW

[EmperorSarda]

The DC is specified, actually:

Unless noted otherwise.

Dominate (Su)
A vampire can crush an opponent’s will just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the vampire must use a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected. Anyone the vampire targets must succeed on a Will save or fall instantly under the vampire’s influence as though by a dominate person spell (caster level 12th). The ability has a range of 30 feet.

[hroþila]

You may want to re-read the latest comic. She did not shield Kudzu's eyes. Whatever point you think you were making, it is invalid. Not that I think it would make a lick of difference, since an attack involves being given an order, while taking the baby from her continues to not involve an order.

GW

He means here.

[Quartz]

This also tells us something about Durkon.

Hilgya's base Will Save Modifier is now up to +16. So completely tanking this check on a natural 1 still means Durkon* has to make up the difference in a bare minimum Intelligence Modifier of +2 or more.

Isn't a 1 an automatic failure for non-Epic characters?

[Yanisa]

Unless noted otherwise.

There is nothing in the Spell Dominate Person that sets the DC (except for sense motive). And caster level also doesn't influence the DC. I don't see an exception here.
Also the SRD Vampire Spawn has a DC of 14, which makes perfect sense with 4 HD and 14 Charisma. (And both wisdom and int are 13.)

Isn't a 1 an automatic failure for non-Epic characters?

Yup:

Automatic Failures and Successes
A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure, and the spell may cause damage to exposed items (see Items Surviving after a Saving Throw, below). A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a success.

It's the only thing that makes sense based on the numbers we can figure out; Hilgya must have rolled a natural 1.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He means here.

Don't care what example they means. The current one shows her NOT doing it, so whatever their point was supposed to be, it's already proven false by counterexample. Mine, not depending on what actions Hilgya performs when ordered to attack, remains "she wasn't ordered to give up her baby, it was simply taken, which doesn't grant a dominated individual an extra save roll".

GW

[Emanick]

Don't care what example they means. The current one shows her NOT doing it, so whatever their point was supposed to be, it's already proven false by counterexample. Mine, not depending on what actions Hilgya performs when ordered to attack, remains "she wasn't ordered to give up her baby, it was simply taken, which doesn't grant a dominated individual an extra save roll".

GW

In her current state, Hilgya trusts Greg, so it would make sense if she also trusted him to take care of her baby properly while holding him (which would implicitly involve covering his eyes when the Flame Strike goes off). In other strips, she was the one holding Kudzu, so she was the one who had to cover his eyes.

[EmperorSarda]

There is nothing in the Spell Dominate Person that sets the DC (except for sense motive). And caster level also doesn't influence the DC. I don't see an exception here.
Also the SRD Vampire Spawn has a DC of 14, which makes perfect sense with 4 HD and 14 Charisma. (And both wisdom and int are 13.)

You are missing the pertinent text.

Anyone the vampire targets must succeed on a Will save or fall instantly under the vampire's influence as though by a dominate person spell

And the spell Dominate Person says the saving throw is "Will negates".

So for a vampiric gaze, it set as caster level 12.

So the DC for the Vampiric gaze is 10+5 (Dominate Person is 5th level spell)+Durkula's wisom modifier. Which is +4 if we go by spells cast, or +6 if we go by Durkon's estimated wisdom.

So that is a DC of 19-21 for the initial save. And for any conflicting commands the save is 17-19, because of the +2 bonus.

[Yanisa]

You are missing the pertinent text.

Vampire Domination is a supernatural ability that acts like a spell, but it isn't a spell. Nothing in the spell describes what the DC to negate is. All that the spell gives in regard to saving throws is the fact a will save negates.
The way you calculate the DC is by looking at the spellcasting chapter and how spellcasters calculate their DC. Which isn't a part of the spell, but a part of spellcasters in general.
In fact supernatural abilities have their own rules about how to calculate the DC. Also vampires have their own rules on top of that (which is the same rule t.b.h.).

And again, look at the Vampire Spawn, who shares the same ability as the Vampire (with the same type of language), but has a stated DC of 14. If it was calculated like a spell, how could the DC end up lower then 15 without a negative ability score modifier?

If Vampire Domination was a Spell-like ability you would have been right, but even then it's weird to apply wisdom to the an arcane only spell in the context of DnD. (Is there a rule for that?)
(Or if the spell has a line like "The DC to negate mind control is 15 + caster stat".)

[zimmerwald1915]

So the DC for the Vampiric gaze is 10+5 (Dominate Person is 5th level spell)+Durkula's wisom modifier.

Vampires' dominate ability has a special DC that is keyed off the vampire's hit dice rather than the level of the spell on which the ability is based. So the DC for Durkon's dominate would be 10 + (Durkon's level / 2) + Durkon's CHA.

[EmperorSarda]

If Vampire Domination was a Spell-like ability you would have been right, but even then it's weird to apply wisdom to the an arcane only spell in the context of DnD. (Is there a rule for that?)
(Or if the spell has a line like "The DC to negate mind control is 15 + caster stat".)

Ah. I missed the part of it being a Supernatural ability and being keyed off that.

Vampires' dominate ability has a special DC that is keyed off the vampire's hit dice rather than the level of the spell on which the ability is based. So the DC for Durkon's dominate would be 10 + (Durkon's level / 2) + Durkon's CHA.

So save is 10 + 7 (15 levels/2) + 0 (charisma). So 17?

So Hilgya's will save is 1d20 + 9 (cleric level will save) + 7 (bonus from 24 wisdom). So if rolling a 1 that gets her a 16.

Correct?

[dps]

In her current state, Hilgya trusts Greg, so it would make sense if she also trusted him to take care of her baby properly while holding him (which would implicitly involve covering his eyes when the Flame Strike goes off). In other strips, she was the one holding Kudzu, so she was the one who had to cover his eyes.

Which doesn't really prove anything. All we can say for certain is that she was holding the baby and covered his eyes when she cast Empowered Flame Strike before she was dominated, and that when she cast it after being dominated, she wasn't holding him and didn't cover his eyes. The only thing that tells us is that casting Empowered Flame Strike against beings she's fighting isn't against her nature.

[rferries]

Don't care what example they means. The current one shows her NOT doing it, so whatever their point was supposed to be, it's already proven false by counterexample. Mine, not depending on what actions Hilgya performs when ordered to attack, remains "she wasn't ordered to give up her baby, it was simply taken, which doesn't grant a dominated individual an extra save roll".

GW

The argument was that Hilgya was entitled to another save against the domination, on the grounds that giving up her child would be strongly "against her nature", to which you responded:

That said, the whole argument seems invalid to me. The order "come over here" is not against anyone's nature. Taking a baby from a dominated person is not an order, it is an action. The domination only allows a new save is given an order against one's nature. Otherwise, they only perform the action commanded "to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival". Holding onto a baby is not "necessary for day-to-day survival", and thus would not resist.

I pointed out that even while dominated she shielded the baby's eyes. By your logic she wouldn't have been able to do so, as protecting Kudzu's vision wouldn't be necessary for her day-to-day survival.

Now, it's entirely possible that she wasn't entitled to another save (or simply failed the bonus save as well), my point is that it must be for some other rationale than the one you gave.

[LeSwordfish]

It's the only thing that makes sense based on the numbers we can figure out; Hilgya must have rolled a natural 1.

Is it possible Hilgya's not dominated? Presumably faking the swirly effect and going along with what she's told until the opportune moment is perfectly in-character for a Loki worshipper?

Kinda related, how does being knocked unconcious work in 3.5? I don't think it's happened much before and I'm not sure what, mechanically speaking, is up with everyone being downed but not dead.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The argument was that Hilgya was entitled to another save against the domination, on the grounds that giving up her child would be strongly "against her nature", to which you responded:

I pointed out that even while dominated she shielded the baby's eyes. By your logic she wouldn't have been able to do so, as protecting Kudzu's vision wouldn't be necessary for her day-to-day survival.

Again, read the actual rules. The "does nothing other than necessary for her day-to-day survival" clause is when not following orders. When she attacks, she is following orders and under those circumstances, she employs her full intelligence, as seen with Elan's ability to pun. None of which means she gets a saving throw: she remains dominated.

GW

[Peelee]

Is it possible Hilgya's not dominated? Presumably faking the swirly effect and going along with what she's told until the opportune moment is perfectly in-character for a Loki worshipper?

Kinda related, how does being knocked unconcious work in 3.5? I don't think it's happened much before and I'm not sure what, mechanically speaking, is up with everyone being downed but not dead.

Dominate Person
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One humanoid
Duration: One day/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subject’s mind.

Also, I believe one way of being knocked unconscious, mechanically, is for lethal damage and subdual damage to add up to your HP total

[LeSwordfish]

You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subject’s mind.

Ah okay - so if she was faking it, !Durkon would know?

[Peelee]

Ah okay - so if she was faking it, !Durkon would know?

Presumably. Story follows D&D rules until it doesn't, after all, so it's certainly possible, albeit unlikely. I would be surprised if she was, though. Yes, because I forgot stuff that Zimmerwald pointed out.

[zimmerwald1915]

Presumably. Story follows D&D rules until it doesn't, after all

But it does follow its own rules. Vaarsuvius could hear Yukyuk's thoughts, and the one Creed of Stone vampire involved in this fight could hear Belkar's.

[Peelee]

But it does follow its own rules. Vaarsuvius could hear Yukyuk's thoughts, and the one Creed of Stone vampire involved in this fight could hear Belkar's.

Fixed. Thanks!

[rferries]

Again, read the actual rules. The "does nothing other than necessary for her day-to-day survival" clause is when not following orders. When she attacks, she is following orders and under those circumstances, she employs her full intelligence, as seen with Elan's ability to pun. None of which means she gets a saving throw: she remains dominated.

GW

From the text:

"Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth)."

By your logic, she WOULDN'T shield his eyes - she had been ordered to attack (via the flamestrike), and would follow that command to the exclusion of all nonessential activities (including shielding Kudzu). Therefore, something else is at play here - she wasn't permitted a save on the grounds that she didn't care enough about Kudzu, or failed two saves, or GITP domination works differently from the SRD, etc. It's simply not the case that she wasn't permitted a save because of inaction.

[Reboot]

Also, I believe one way of being knocked unconscious, mechanically, is for lethal damage and subdual damage to add up to your HP total

Thing is, while it's entirely possible some of the hits Roy landed on Elan, Belkar and Haley were non-lethal damage, surely V, Blackwing & Roy himself have taken only lethal damage, and thus need to be stabilised not to die?

[Father Miles]

From the text:

"Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth)."

By your logic, she WOULDN'T shield his eyes - she had been ordered to attack (via the flamestrike), and would follow that command to the exclusion of all nonessential activities (including shielding Kudzu). Therefore, something else is at play here - she wasn't permitted a save on the grounds that she didn't care enough about Kudzu, or failed two saves, or GITP domination works differently from the SRD, etc. It's simply not the case that she wasn't permitted a save because of inaction.

I would look at this and say, she was given a command to "take Roy down" and she conducts her action in the most effective way she thinks of; to cast an Empowered Flame Strike, and while so doing she also does what she normally does while casting that spell (i.e. shield the baby's eyes). It's not a separate action anymore than if she chose to move 5 feet along with casting the spell. The command that was given was vague and relied upon her using her normal instincts to decide the most effective attack mechanism, which grants her some freedom to do so however she chooses as long as it is in line with the dominator's wishes. The dominated character is not paralyzed and therefore some minor motions and "actions" are to be expected. Certainly covering the baby's eyes is not as involved as, say, pulling rations or water out of her pack and consuming it.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

From the text:

"Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth)."

By your logic, she WOULDN'T shield his eyes - she had been ordered to attack (via the flamestrike), and would follow that command to the exclusion of all nonessential activities (including shielding Kudzu). Therefore, something else is at play here - she wasn't permitted a save on the grounds that she didn't care enough about Kudzu, or failed two saves, or GITP domination works differently from the SRD, etc. It's simply not the case that she wasn't permitted a save because of inaction.

I read that more as “the dominated creature will do what you command it to do above all other things” as opposed to “the dominated creature literally only will do what you command, in addition to breathing, etc.”

[Grey_Wolf_c]

From the text:

"Once you have given a dominated creature a command, it continues to attempt to carry out that command to the exclusion of all other activities except those necessary for day-to-day survival (such as sleeping, eating, and so forth)."

By your logic, she WOULDN'T shield his eyes - she had been ordered to attack (via the flamestrike), and would follow that command to the exclusion of all nonessential activities (including shielding Kudzu). Therefore, something else is at play here - she wasn't permitted a save on the grounds that she didn't care enough about Kudzu, or failed two saves, or GITP domination works differently from the SRD, etc. It's simply not the case that she wasn't permitted a save because of inaction.

No, by my logic she would shield his eyes because the spell only renders her catatonic when she doesn’t have an order. Again: see Elan’s puns while attacking Roy. Also, what Father Miles & Jaxzan said.

And again: yes, she was not given a save because there was no order to hand the baby over. That is what RAW says has to happen.

GW