Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

[b_jonas]

I still think that this is the day after the battle, and Hilgya refreshed her spells. Hilgya met the Order on the day of the battle, and didn't know that he turned to a vampire before that. I think it was unlikely that he had a Resurrection spell prepared. Resurrection can't be cast spontaneously, because only spells that have "Cure" or "Inflict" in their name can. (I wonder if a chaotic good cleric could abuse the rules to cast "Obscure Object" spontaneously.)

---

Entirely different question: I'm confused about the rules for creating undead, as used in OOTS.

The Animate Dead spell creates zombies and skeletons. If I understand correctly, the zombies and skeletons will have twice the hit dice that the base creature had while it was alive, except that hit dice from class levels don't count. Does this mean that most of the goblin zombies created by Xykon, Redcloak, and Tsukiko had only two hit dice, because goblins start with one hit dice? Or did they specifically animate goblins that have gained a level in the battle? What happens if you make zombies or skeletons from humans, who I think only have hit dice from class levels? Is it even possible, or what kind of undead you get? I thought there was an example for this, but it seems like Malack actually made mummies, not zombies, and Tsukiko also wanted to make a bad-ass high level undead warrior from a human corpse, not a zombie.

Also, should I assume that the gemstone cost (25 GP per hit dice for zombies and skeletons, 50 GP per hit dice for more powerful undead) was always payed whenever Xykon, Redcloak, Tsukiko or Malack created any kind of undead, even though this was never shown on screen?

Also, #858 says that Malack created the mummies using his staff. How does paying the gemstones work in that case? the rules for creating staffs seem to say that you pay the material components in advance when you create the staff, but if I understand correctly, a staff holds 50 charges that you can each spend on any of the several kinds of spells that are taught to the staff, so how is the material component cost decided? Also, the rules for the Create Undead spell says that you place the gemstones in the mouth or eye socket of the corpse, though it's possible that that rule is simply ignored. I also don't understand how the number of charges consumed is computed. Does malack spend just one charge per mummy? Malack and then Greg uses the staff so much that I'm surprised it hasn't ran out of charges already. And it didn't seem to be completely empty yet in #1022 when Roy broke the staff in half, though there was also a surprising lack of a big magical explosion that I'd expect from breaking a staff.

[hamishspence]

The Animate Dead spell creates zombies and skeletons. If I understand correctly, the zombies and skeletons will have twice the hit dice that the base creature had while it was alive, except that hit dice from class levels don't count.

Zombies yes, skeletons no. Skeletons have the same number of hit dice as the base creature.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm

and, if they had class levels, they have them reduced to 1.

Animate a 12th level fighter, and they will become a 2 HD zombie or 1 HD skeleton.

there was also a surprising lack of a big magical explosion that I'd expect from breaking a staff.

Few staffs have that trait. The staff of power, the minor artifact Staff of the Magi, and the epic Staff of Fiery Power, are the only SRD ones that specifically do.

[Jasdoif]

Also, #858 says that Malack created the mummies using his staff. How does paying the gemstones work in that case? the rules for creating staffs seem to say that you pay the material components in advance when you create the staff, but if I understand correctly, a staff holds 50 charges that you can each spend on any of the several kinds of spells that are taught to the staff, so how is the material component cost decided?

The rules don't really address how variable costs would work...as in, the staff of necromancy doesn't even have animate dead in it.

The normal case is that for each spell with a costly material component or XP component, you pay for the maximum number of times you could use it from the staff (50 times, divided by the number of charges the spell costs from the staff).

Also, the rules for the Create Undead spell says that you place the gemstones in the mouth or eye socket of the corpse, though it's possible that that rule is simply ignored.

Casting the spell from a staff (or other spell trigger item...or a spell completion item like a scroll) doesn't require you to provide the material component since its cost is part of the item itself; so I don't believe requirements like that one would apply.

I also don't understand how the number of charges consumed is computed.

One per spell, unless the staff is designed to cost multiple charges for a particular spell as a cost-saving measure. See the staff of life, which has resurrection cost five charges thus saving on 400,000gp worth of diamonds.

[b_jonas]

The rules don't really address how variable costs would work...as in, the staff of necromancy doesn't even have animate dead in it.

The spell we're looking for is Create Undead, because that's the one that creates mummies, Animate Dead is a cheaper aend lower level spell that doesn't. The "staff of necromancy" doesn't have either, perhaps because it doesn't have evil spells so this way the staff can be used by a non-evil person too. That's not a factor for Malack's personal staff though.

One per spell, unless the staff is designed to cost multiple charges for a particular spell as a cost-saving measure. See the staff of life, which has resurrection cost five charges thus saving on 400,000gp worth of diamonds.

That seems possible, but it doesn't seem to be the full explanation. I thought the cost-saving measure goes from one charge from two charge, but there are staffs listed with three charges for some spells, and you mention five charges for a spell. Also … wait, the cost-saving measures let you cheat on the material costs too? That's really strange.

Update: Ah, I see. It doesn't let you cheat on the material costs. If the resurrection costs 5 charges, then it can be cast 10 times, so you have to pay the material cost of Resurrection only 10 times to create the staff. That makes sense. Although it still seems strange for spells with variable material costs, like Create Undead.

[RatElemental]

That seems possible, but it doesn't seem to be the full explanation. I thought the cost-saving measure goes from one charge from two charge, but there are staffs listed with three charges for some spells, and you mention five charges for a spell. Also … wait, the cost-saving measures let you cheat on the material costs too? That's really strange.

If you can only cast resurrection with the staff 10 times (50/5) then why would it cost 50 times the material cost of a single casting to make said staff? Makes sense to me it'd be less.

[Jasdoif]

Animate Dead is a cheaper aend lower level spell that doesn't.

Animate dead is also the prototypical "make undead creatures" necromancy spell, and has a variable material cost (25 per HD of the undead being created). Its absence from the staff of necromancy seems very odd to me...unless it was an attempt to dodge "how do we include variable material cost spells in staffs" by not including such spells, which is why I mentioned it alongside "the rules don't really address how variable costs would work".

[hamishspence]

Its absence from the staff of necromancy seems very odd to me...unless it was an attempt to dodge "how do we include variable material cost spells in staffs" by not including such spells, which is why I mentioned it alongside "the rules don't really address how variable costs would work".

The epic Staff of Necromancy does have Create Greater Undead in it, at least:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magic...htm#necromancy

[b_jonas]

The epic Staff of Necromancy does have Create Greater Undead in it, at least:

Yeah. That's because at epic level, like for Malack who controls half of a country, the material cost of Create Greater Undead, which is at most 600 GP worth of black onyx gemostones, no longer matters to you even if you have to pay it 50 times for a staff. At least not when you have some time to go shopping for gemstones, as opposed to being in the middle of a battle, and creating a staff isn't something you do in the middle of a battle anyway.

[Paschendale]

I still think that this is the day after the battle, and Hilgya refreshed her spells. Hilgya met the Order on the day of the battle, and didn't know that he turned to a vampire before that. I think it was unlikely that he had a Resurrection spell prepared. Resurrection can't be cast spontaneously, because only spells that have "Cure" or "Inflict" in their name can. (I wonder if a chaotic good cleric could abuse the rules to cast "Obscure Object" spontaneously.)

The fact that they're still in the same room, and that no one else besides the order is around, suggests that there was no such delay. This is a commonly used part of the temple, and probably there would be a lot of dwarves about the place if it had been the location of a major evil incursion the night before. Since resurrection doesn't care about the state of the body, and a pinch of dust would do, the Order would likely have taken such a pinch with them when moving on to apprise the Council of Clans of the situation, and probably clerics of Thor would have wanted to at least be on hand to revive one of their own, if not casting the spell themselves. Hilgya being the caster, the lack of other dwarves present, and the location, all suggest that it's still the middle of the night and that the Order has not moved on to their next task.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This is a commonly used part of the temple

This room is not part of the temple at all.

Grey Wolf

[Paschendale]

This room is not part of the temple at all.

Grey Wolf

Fair enough, it's not explicitly the temple's banquet hall, but it is still a banquet hall, and likely gets a lot of use.

That Durkon was able to make use of it to celebrate his joining the priesthood, despite explicitly being quite poor at the time, suggests to me that it is owned by the temple or part of a great temple complex, but it's not explicit either way. Also that this is the main temple of Thor, where the high priest operates from, suggests that it is a large temple, more like a cathedral than a local church in size, so it would probably have gathering places like a banquet hall.

Either way, it's only one floor below the main temple area and would still be extremely accessible to a large number of clerics of Thor who would probably want to be there for Durkon's resurrection or perform it themselves. or would at least be consecrating it because of the previous vampiric presence. Someone else would definitely be there if it were the next day. That the Order is alone, and Hilgya is casting the spell, pretty much demonstrates that it's right away.

[danielxcutter]

Fair enough, it's not explicitly the temple's banquet hall, but it is still a banquet hall, and likely gets a lot of use.

That Durkon was able to make use of it to celebrate his joining the priesthood, despite explicitly being quite poor at the time, suggests to me that it is owned by the temple or part of a great temple complex, but it's not explicit either way. Also that this is the main temple of Thor, where the high priest operates from, suggests that it is a large temple, more like a cathedral than a local church in size, so it would probably have gathering places like a banquet hall.

Either way, it's only one floor below the main temple area and would still be extremely accessible to a large number of clerics of Thor who would probably want to be there for Durkon's resurrection or perform it themselves. or would at least be consecrating it because of the previous vampiric presence. Someone else would definitely be there if it were the next day. That the Order is alone, and Hilgya is casting the spell, pretty much demonstrates that it's right away.

Since Wednesday is the holy day of Odin-worshipers, perhaps there wouldn't be anyone here one way or another, since the reason Durkon suggested it to Greg in the first place was because it'd be closed now, so no innocent bystanders would get caught in the battle.

[Paschendale]

Since Wednesday is the holy day of Odin-worshipers, perhaps there wouldn't be anyone here one way or another, since the reason Durkon suggested it to Greg in the first place was because it'd be closed now, so no innocent bystanders would get caught in the battle.

Maybe not random bystanders, but again, probably some of the remaining clerics of Thor Odin.

Also, thanks for reminding me that this was a temple of Odin, not Thor. My mistake on that front, but all the more reason why, had an entire day passed and the Council of Clans been apprised of the situation, clerics of Thor would be raising Durkon, one of their own, and not Hilgya.

Otherwise, wouldn't her level be tied to Durkon's (or possibly to Greg's)? While later members of the Linear Guild didn't obtain the benefits of becoming personal a nemesis, the original ones did.

[Zenzis]

Otherwise, wouldn't her level be tied to Durkon's (or possibly to Greg's)? While later members of the Linear Guild didn't obtain the benefits of becoming personal a nemesis, the original ones did.

While it seems unlikely as she probably would have brought some higher level magic, I really like the idea that the reason she is rich now is when Durkon got vamped she instantly jumped up 8 levels and got appropriate WBL.

[danielxcutter]

While it seems unlikely as she probably would have brought some higher level magic, I really like the idea that the reason she is rich now is when Durkon got vamped she instantly jumped up 8 levels and got appropriate WBL.

Actually, I think those tend to be based on CR, not ECL - otherwise, Sabine wouldn't have any class levels at all in the first Linear Guild fight.

[hamishspence]

Since Wednesday is the holy day of Odin-worshipers, perhaps there wouldn't be anyone here one way or another, since the reason Durkon suggested it to Greg in the first place was because it'd be closed now, so no innocent bystanders would get caught in the battle.

The Temple above the banqueting hall is pretty overtly a temple of Thor:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1024.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1085.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1086.html

though there's probably temples of Odin in the town of Firmament as well.

[Aeson]

The Temple above the banqueting hall is pretty overtly a temple of Thor:

If by "below" you mean that the Temple of Thor is directly above the banqueting hall, then I don't agree that this is necessarily correct. The banqueting hall is said to be "nearby" and is one level down, but the Order also walked some distance along the tunnels at the level of the Temple of Thor in order to get to it, and it isn't clearly the case that they walked far enough on the level below to arrive back underneath the Temple of Thor - especially since the Order arrived at the entry passage to the banqueting hall soon after going down the stairs to get to the level that it's on.

[hamishspence]

It is true that the people who own the hall are Odin-worshippers, who loan/hire it out, for things like Durkon's celebratory dinner:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1089.html

so it's likely not part of the Temple Of Thor complex itself.

[Reboot]

I think Revivify is pretty unlikely - not because it's non-Core, but because Durkon just died outside of battle. I'm sure the Giant is going to make use of that before Durkon's back For Real.

Maybe not random bystanders, but again, probably some of the remaining clerics of Thor Odin.

Also, thanks for reminding me that this was a temple of Odin, not Thor.

It's not a temple at all. The owners are Odin worshippers, not Odin clerics. They're probably commoners or some other minor NPC class, who just hire out their hall as a business proposition.

[Peelee]

I think Revivify is pretty unlikely - not because it's non-Core, but because Durkon just died outside of battle. I'm sure the Giant is going to make use of that before Durkon's back For Real.

A.) Dying in battle is only one way to die without honor. It is not the only way. I, for one, don't believe he died without honor.
2.) I bet five gold we're not going to see him go to Hel, even in the event that he does. There doesn't seem to be anything for he and Hel to say to each other, and it seems like it would slow the pacing down. We just cut back to the Order and Hilgya, we're not going to cut away from them immediately.

[hamishspence]

A.) Dying in battle is only one way to die without honor. It is not the only way. I, for one, don't believe he died without honor.

Indeed. "Died in the middle of doing (or trying to do) an honourable thing, of any kind" seems to be the default.

And making a marriage offer, out of a sense of responsibility, in the hope of maximising Hilgya and Kudzu's happiness, sounds rather honourable.

[RickDaily12]

What blows my mind about this last comic just now that is that we're apparently supposed to believe that a wizard up against a much stronger spell and quite below full hitpoints, had an easier time surviving that, than a cleric of relatively the same level and at full hitpoints, to a much weaker spell. Barring creative liberties (as you know, this is the Geekery thread), it's just a lot to swallow in terms of how unlikely this would be in an actual DnD setting.

Saves be damned, too, considering in both these cases, the wizard survived the unfavorable save versus a higher DC, whereas the cleric blew a lower one, and either then went on to fail a favorable save or has fewer than 81 hitpoints. Neither PC had any useful magical defenses, either, and the cleric is also a Dwarf, and the wizard an Elf.

Utterly bizarre.

[Peelee]

What blows my mind about this last comic just now that is that we're apparently supposed to believe that a wizard up against a much stronger spell and quite below full hitpoints, had an easier time surviving that, than a cleric of relatively the same level and at full hitpoints, to a much weaker spell. Barring creative liberties (as you know, this is the Geekery thread), it's just a lot to swallow in terms of how unlikely this would be in an actual DnD setting.

Saves be damned, too, considering in both these cases, the wizard survived the unfavorable save versus a higher DC, whereas the cleric blew a lower one, and either then went on to fail a favorable save or has fewer than 81 hitpoints. Neither PC had any useful magical defenses, either, and the cleric is also a Dwarf, and the wizard an Elf.

Utterly bizarre.

I must have missed your rant when the imp summoned the twenty story demon. I bet it was quite a thing to behold, given how unlikely that would be in an actual DnD setting.

[RickDaily12]

Ha, fair enough, I do suppose you got me there.

Still, seeing 9th level spells being thrown at a shrugging damaged wizard and being like "oh yeah, that's nothing", while seeing a fully healthy dwarf cleric with probably double the same number of hitpoints die to a single 5th is like, um, yeah, wow.

If I were Durkon's player, I wouldn't know whether or not I'd be laughing or table flipping.

[Emanick]

I must have missed your rant when the imp summoned the twenty story demon. I bet it was quite a thing to behold, given how unlikely that would be in an actual DnD setting.

I dunno, I'm not sure that's a great example of an implausible event, V's wisecrack notwithstanding. Qarr explains that he had a summoning chip (or whatever, I don't remember the exact term) that would let him summon the giant devil, so I consider that a case of an unpredictable plot development, not a violation of RAW.

[Peelee]

Ha, fair enough, I do suppose you got me there.

Still, seeing 9th level spells being thrown at a shrugging damaged wizard and being like "oh yeah, that's nothing", while seeing a fully healthy dwarf cleric with probably double the same number of hitpoints die to a single 5th is like, um, yeah, wow.

If I were Durkon's player, I wouldn't know whether or not I'd be laughing or table flipping.

The bolded is where I think the problem lies. It's not a game, and it's not written as a game; it's written as a story within the confines of the rules of a game. If you read it more as a game, then I can absolutely understand those feelings, but it won't get any better. If the plot is furthered and a joke can be made by Hilgya rolling max damage, she's going to, regardless of how likely it'd be for the dice to turn out that way.

[Quartz]

What blows my mind about this last comic just now that is that we're apparently supposed to believe that a wizard up against a much stronger spell and quite below full hitpoints, had an easier time surviving that, than a cleric of relatively the same level and at full hitpoints, to a much weaker spell. Barring creative liberties (as you know, this is the Geekery thread), it's just a lot to swallow in terms of how unlikely this would be in an actual DnD setting.

I ran the numbers upthread putting the Rule of Funny aside. Remember that Durkon had no magic items, no spells running, no nothing. There are two main possibilities: firstly Durkon does not have a good constitution score and the Flame Strike was maximised, and secondly the Flame Strike did 50+ HP damage causing Durkon to make a save against massive damage which he failed. As a 13th level cleric he only has a +8 to his save against DC 15. That's a 30% chance of failure if Durkon doesn't have a CON bonus.

[hamishspence]

As a 13th level cleric he only has a +8 to his save against DC 15.

14th. Durkula/Greg was able to cast 8th level spells (minimum 15th level) and Durkon is one level lower at this point.

[b_jonas]

Is it possible that the Flame Strike did more than 50 damage because the "Loki's fire burns hotter" rule adds extra points of damage too? Haley says it is bright (same strip), and she must be accustomed to Vaarsuvius's fire and explosion spells by now.

[hamishspence]

Possible. But because the probability of the Massive Damage rule killing Durkon if invoked, is as high as it is (20% or so) it seems simpler that Massive Damage Save Failed, rather than "Did Durkon's HP+10 damage or more" is the explanation.