Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

[zimmerwald1915]

The level boost is from the ioun stone Blackwing is wearing as a bracelet. Well, anklet.

Yes, that boosts the CL up to 17, from V's natural 16. Danielxcutter is suggesting that V's natural CL, and thus total level, because V's a single-phase Wizard, is really 15, and that specialization gives a CL boost to evocations. It doesn't. Not in 3.5. Dunno about 5.

[unbeliever536]

Yes, that boosts the CL up to 17, from V's natural 16. Danielxcutter is suggesting that V's natural CL, and thus total level, because V's a single-phase Wizard, is really 15, and that specialization gives a CL boost to evocations. It doesn't. Not in 3.5. Dunno about 5.

Not in 5 either. 5 doesn't even have CL.

[rferries]

Hilgya used dream in the current strip, but it's only a sor/wiz and bard spell. She probably just paid someone to cast it, but it may instead be a very esoteric hint at one of her domains (though I don't know any core domains that grant dream).

Or she's an epic level cleric/bard. That's really the simplest solution :)

[EmperorSarda]

Hilgya used dream in the current strip, but it's only a sor/wiz and bard spell. She probably just paid someone to cast it, but it may instead be a very esoteric hint at one of her domains (though I don't know any core domains that grant dream).

Or she's an epic level cleric/bard. That's really the simplest solution :)

It does not look to be a domain spell.

[zimmerwald1915]

It does not look to be a domain spell.

Scroll + UMD? Herald domain? It's in the Book of Exalted Deeds, which doesn't easily jive with Hilgya's stated alignment and observed actions, but it does grant the spell.

Mystic theurge seems unlikely, considering we've already had one of those. Then again, given the earlier discussion about Hilgya's seemingly-low turning level, might it be worth considering what other prestige classes could give her access to dream?

[EmperorSarda]

Herald domain? It's in the Book of Exalted Deeds, which doesn't easily jive with Hilgya's stated alignment and observed actions, but it does grant the spell.

Is there an alignment required for the Herald domain? Because if she is a Herald for Loki, it could fit. She is spreading a way of life to get out of a restrictive honor system.

Because yeah, Barachiel is the only deity who grants it officially. But there is no alignment requirement for the domain itself.

[Doug Lampert]

Is there an alignment required for the Herald domain? Because if she is a Herald for Loki, it could fit. She is spreading a way of life to get out of a restrictive honor system.

Because yeah, Barachiel is the only deity who grants it officially. But there is no alignment requirement for the domain itself.

Does it matter? The way for Hilgya to "cast" dream is to PAY SOMEONE the princely sum of 450 GP. That's all it takes, are we really gonna start looking at obscure domains, prestige classes, and the like to avoid having a high level character have access to something purchasable with the PHB rules and 450 GP?

[rferries]

Does it matter? The way for Hilgya to "cast" dream is to PAY SOMEONE the princely sum of 450 GP. That's all it takes, are we really gonna start looking at obscure domains, prestige classes, and the like to avoid having a high level character have access to something purchasable with the PHB rules and 450 GP?

Won't you feel silly when she casts aspect of the deity in the next strip!

[Doug Lampert]

Won't you feel silly when she casts aspect of the deity in the next strip!

Yes. If that happens I will be quite surprised.

It will not be the first time this comic has surprised me, and it probably won't be the last, but it will be quite a surprise, and you people have my prior permission to say "I told you so" if any explanation other than "someone else cast the spell for her" is ever offered in comic.

[Douglas]

Won't you feel silly when she casts aspect of the deity in the next strip!

It was renamed Visage of the Deity and put on the standard cleric spell list in Spell Compendium.

[rferries]

It was renamed Visage of the Deity and put on the standard cleric spell list in Spell Compendium.

Crown of glory, then!

[Quartz]

Does it matter? The way for Hilgya to "cast" dream is to PAY SOMEONE the princely sum of 450 GP. That's all it takes, are we really gonna start looking at obscure domains, prestige classes, and the like to avoid having a high level character have access to something purchasable with the PHB rules and 450 GP?

Since it requires a 9th level caster which are not exactly common, it's worth investigating.

[Ephemera]

Since it requires a 9th level caster which are not exactly common, it's worth investigating.

It’s pretty clearly not going to meet the standards of this thread without further evidence. But it’s fun.

Just randomly, is it me, or is Dream pretty underpowered for a level 5 spell?

[rferries]

It’s pretty clearly not going to meet the standards of this thread without further evidence. But it’s fun.

Just randomly, is it me, or is Dream pretty underpowered for a level 5 spell?

Not just you, sending is almost always more efficient. However they probably set it at 5th level for symmetry with nightmare, which arguably IS that powerful (can deny an enemy caster the chance to refresh spell slots, or even potentially kill someone over time if they don't have access to magical healing).

[Reboot]

Just randomly, is it me, or is Dream pretty underpowered for a level 5 spell?

It certainly doesn't seem to do very much - if it's an attempted stunt like Hilgya pulled here, well, there doesn't seem to be any compulsion on the dreamer to actually follow through on it. They remember it, but they can just shrug it off as a weird dream. And as a communication tool (since unlike Sending, there's no word limit), it's not particularly useful since it's purely one-way and, of course, requires the dreamer to be asleep to receive it.

Not just you, sending is almost always more efficient.

Isn't Sending underpowered too? I mean, it's a magical SMS (& reply) for the same spell cost as, say, Teleport, Dominate Monster, Overland Flight, Telepathic Bond...

[Doug Lampert]

Since it requires a 9th level caster which are not exactly common, it's worth investigating.

They're not? We don't see many 17th level casters, but 9ths are pretty common. The LOW LEVEL clerics in the temple of Thor are level 5 or so. The incompetent minions of the thieves guild are known to be level 3 or so (Jenny is a three way multiclass).

Nale was consistently able to recruit mid-level help, except when getting Pompey was made into a joke.

The population demographics in the DMG mean that fairly small towns can have ninth level wizards, and that a real city is GUARANTEED to have multiple such.

[zimmerwald1915]

Since it requires a 9th level caster which are not exactly common, it's worth investigating.

9th-level casters are reasonably common. 9th- or higher-level casters who took dream upon level-up, or researched the spell themselves, might be considerably rarer, given the spell's limited utility.

Wu-jens and sha'irs might, I don't remember if they know their whole lists.

[rferries]

Isn't Sending underpowered too? I mean, it's a magical SMS (& reply) for the same spell cost as, say, Teleport, Dominate Monster, Overland Flight, Telepathic Bond...

Yeah, sending is probably overlevelled, but in comparison to teleport, telepathic bond, etc it has the advantage of not needing to know where your contact it to message them. In that sense it can double as a scrying spell, sort of.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Gang, if we're going to start arguing about rewriting the magic system to get stuff re-classed, we'll be here all week.

(And probably in a new thread, while we're at it.)

[Quartz]

They're not? We don't see many 17th level casters, but 9ths are pretty common.

Really? Don't confuse the party commonly encountering them with them being pretty common.

The LOW LEVEL clerics in the temple of Thor are level 5 or so.

Minrah seems to be the highest level of them.

[Reboot]

Minrah seems to be the highest level of them.

And she's multiclass. (Her other class wasn't/classes weren't specified, but they were probably something like Fighter. Certainly non-caster)

So whatever cleric level she has, she has a higher total level

[D.One]

And she's multiclass. (Her other class wasn't/classes weren't specified, but they were probably something like Fighter. Certainly non-caster)

So whatever cleric level she has, she has a higher total level

Yeah, Minrah is at least 6th level, having at least 5 cleric levels and at least 1 level of non-specified "guard" class (I'd bet on Fighter or the convenient NPC class Warrior).

I believe it wouldn't be that surprising for Hilgya to have paid someone to cast the Dream. That would be Option 1.

Option 2: I also think it's not that far-fetched for a cleric of Loki to have invested some (or many) points cross-class in the roguish skill Use Magic Device, and them to have bought and used herself a scroll. Let's do the math.

A dream scroll costs 1.125 gp. I think it's a fairly reachable value for someone of her level, even more if she expects to gain it back after the wages.

She doesn't need to decipher the spell, since Read Magic is Clr 0, so she only needs to cast it.

Using a 5th level spell in a scroll requires a DC 29 (20 + caster level) UMD check. We've put her in at least 13th level, since she can cast Greater Scrying, so she can put a maximum of 16 points (8.0 for a cross class) in a skill, maybe even more. We don't know her Charisma, but Eagle's Splendor is a Cleric spell and can be used to boost it for the check. She could easily have 5 ranks in Spellcraft, which would give her +2 in checks related to scrolls. Guidance can be used to give a +1 competence for the skill check, and Prayer can give another +1 (luck).

So, if we consider her to have a normal CHA of 12, it's fairly possible for her to achieve a skill check for UMD with a bonus of +15, and thus she would need a 14+ to succeed in the check, quite possible result.

[EDIT] And that's all within SRD, no other books needed. If we put the Unearthed Arcana Skill Knowledge feat in the mix, she coud have as much as 16 ranks in UMD, reaching something as a +23 modifier to the check and making that 29 DC check an easy one. [/EDIT]

Option 3: The Giant may have forgotten (or simply didn't care, or both) Dream wasn't a Cleric spell. If needed be, he may now come with an explanation for the situation (Spoiler alert: I think he won't), and any of the previous could be a fairly acceptable one.

[Aquillion]

Yeah, sending is probably overlevelled, but in comparison to teleport, telepathic bond, etc it has the advantage of not needing to know where your contact it to message them. In that sense it can double as a scrying spell, sort of.

Belatedly, I think the reason Sending is so high level is because it encourages PCs to interact with stuff that is completely "offstage", with absolutely no warning to the DM. You don't want that power to be cheap or easy to use, because using it casually makes the DM's job a lot harder. (It's probably not a coincidence that it's at the same level as Teleport, which similarly dramatically expands the scope of what players can interact with on short notice.)

[Jasdoif]

Belatedly, I think the reason Sending is so high level is because it encourages PCs to interact with stuff that is completely "offstage", with absolutely no warning to the DM. You don't want that power to be cheap or easy to use, because using it casually makes the DM's job a lot harder. (It's probably not a coincidence that it's at the same level as Teleport, which similarly dramatically expands the scope of what players can interact with on short notice.)

I also note that 5th-level is the bare minimum that can't be loaded into 50-charges-each wands, which could be easily used by any character with the spell on their list.

[D.One]

I also note that 5th-level is the bare minimum that can't be loaded into 50-charges-each wands, which could be easily used by any character with the spell on their list.

Except that, for Clerics, Sending is a 4th level spell...

... which brings me to mind the situation: since there is no such thing as arcane x divine wands as there is for scrolls, an arcane caster would greatly benefit from a "clerically made" Sending Wand.

From the SRD:

"Wands

[...]

Activation
Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole."

and

"Spell Trigger
Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity."

[Rogar Demonblud]

Also, we've seen wands of sending in the comic. Julio and Haley's Uncle Geoff both have one.

[D.One]

Also, we've seen wands of sending in the comic. Julio and Haley's Uncle Geoff both have one.

Yeah... that too...

Had forgotten those (probably in Faerun).

[Jasdoif]

Except that, for Clerics, Sending is a 4th level spell...

Oh right, we moved onto sending. I was still thinking of dream, and how wands of it could have allowed a network of 1st-level bards to function as covert operatives to send detailed reports back to their handler nightly as long as they were on the same plane; bringing a new definition to the term "sleeper agent".

[Rogar Demonblud]

...

Dammit, now I have another adventure idea stuck in my head.

[Zenzis]

Dream is super OP.

"The message can be of any length, and the recipient remembers it perfectly upon waking."

Think of the implications for communicating languages, battle statistics, magical knowledge, calculus, people's names, etc.

Not to mention it has no save, unlimited range, the duration can be extended indefinitely, only requires identifying the name or title of the recipient, and it doesn't say anything about people being able to wake up from it once they are in. Lower it to first level and every 1 wizard can make an army of commoners capable of locking down all the important people in a kingdom for easy assassination or just general chaos and disarray via mental filibuster.