Ranged Builds 5th edition

[PhoenixPhyre]

And the thing is, "beating" 3.5 is something people like Emperor Tippy did. Guess what? Unless you're one of the ORIGINAL optimizers, one of the few who figured out the tricks with minimal outside help, you did not beat the system. Someone else did, and you just copied them. More than that, 3.5 is so variable in power (with a LOT of the stuff above the curve of what WotC expected) that it's pretty trivial to "beat", say, the regular modules.

In fact, "beating" 3.5 usually takes work to avoid. Picking a druid and choosing what looks right is an easy way. It's one of the few games where you can "lose" or "win" at character creation without any intent. To me, that's a horrible bug. Couple that with trap options galore, and you have a game where you spend most of your effort fighting the system to get anything done.

[JNAProductions]

In fact, "beating" 3.5 usually takes work to avoid. Picking a druid and choosing what looks right is an easy way. It's one of the few games where you can "lose" or "win" at character creation without any intent. To me, that's a horrible bug. Couple that with trap options galore, and you have a game where you spend most of your effort fighting the system to get anything done.

Yeah. My go-to example of a party that just doesn't work well is Sir Bearington, the Druid who took Natural Spell, likes to turn into a bear, has a bear animal companion, and summons bears, in a party with Mr. Kickass, the Monk who wanted to be real tough and so took Diehard and Toughness.

Both sound like cool concepts-one is a madman of bears, the other is a tough as nails martial artist. But only one is good.

[Unoriginal]

Ahaha whoa.

Thats a very strong different in opinion. Having a vary narrow set of rules means that there is little room to expand without "house ruling it" which is basically just cheating but the GM allows.

No it's not.

"Game-breaking" within the rules is fun as that means you are clever enough to get what you want and keep it. You beat "the system".

You're not playing the game, you're breaking it. If you fight the system, you might "win", but you're not enjoying the system for the system, you just like beating it up.

3.5 is the golden age as so many possible rules were published to cover every aspect. Other games like Pathfinder, Rifts, Gurps, Champions, SHadowrun, etc. encourage creativity by trying to expand with as many rules as possible. Of course many are optional.

Rules restraint creativity, they don't expand it. It's not more creative to use something that already exist rather than, you know, create it.

you dont have to worry about enemies killing you/you killing them in one hit

That's wrong.

or think about managing an empire

That's wrong.

Also, there is no rules in 3.X about managing an empire.

or becoming a deity.

There is no rule in 3.X about becoming a deity.

Are there even rules in 5th edition for becoming a Lich?

Sure.

Highlights of other games are fighting/having tea with Demon Lords, Elder Gods, Celestial Entities.

All things that can happen in 5e.

What the heck happened to make DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS lose its fantasy?

A bunch of people decided that looking at numbers and loopholes to break the game and have the most broken character was better than playing. Thankfully they corrected that in this edition.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Thats a very strong different in opinion. Having a vary narrow set of rules means that there is little room to expand without "house ruling it" which is basically just cheating but the GM allows. "Game-breaking" within the rules is fun as that means you are clever enough to get what you want and keep it. You beat "the system".

3.5 is the golden age as so many possible rules were published to cover every aspect. Other games like Pathfinder, Rifts, Gurps, Champions, SHadowrun, etc. encourage creativity by trying to expand with as many rules as possible. Of course many are optional.

Critically 5th edition is boring for the reasons why some people like it. Its small, safe, secure. You dont have to worry about enemies killing you/you killing them in one hit, or think about managing an empire, or becoming a deity. Are there even rules in 5th edition for becoming a Lich?

Highlights of other games are fighting/having tea with Demon Lords, Elder Gods, Celestial Entities. And that was just 3.5. I havent played Rifts but from what I read its fantastic. What the heck happened to make DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS lose its fantasy?

Nothing lost it’s fantasy. Seems like you got spoiled with a broken game. 5e is relatively new and unbroken and the current design philosophy wants to keep it unbroker. TPKs still happen and so do random crits. Numbers don’t make the story or fantasy it’s the players working together (including GM).

You shouldn’t walk into a game and ask how to break it. What’s the point in that. You sound like you want to go around and knock over everyone’s sandcastles.

Also on another note. In 3.5 there wasn’t even a proper way to becom a Lich besides Dread Necromancer 20 which was a highly debated topic on weather or not you get it due to level adjustments and some other nonsense and the Dry Lich which was at the end of Walker in the Waste prc from Sandstorm book. That one wasn’t even a proper Lich and some of the abilities were never full detailed in how they work. So 3.5 barely had that as an option at all.

[Chaosticket]

Is there a legal way to get 30 in at least one statistic, in 5th edition Dungeons and Dragons specifically?

Is there a way to get 3 Extra Attacks and tier 0 through 9 spells, again legally in 5th edition D&D?

Is there a way to legally have more than 1tier 9 spell per day, in 5th edition?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Is there a legal way to get 30 in at least one statistic, in 5th edition Dungeons and Dragons specifically?

Is there a way to get 3 Extra Attacks and tier 0 through 9 spells, again legally in 5th edition D&D?

Is there a way to legally have more than 1tier 9 spell per day, in 5th edition?

You're still super focused on comparing mechanics. None of those transfer. Nor should they. They don't transfer to any other game whatsoever, so they're a useless benchmark for assessing a game system.

At this point, you're just edition warring, which is against forum rules. Stop it.

[JNAProductions]

Is there a legal way to get 30 in at least one statistic, in 5th edition Dungeons and Dragons specifically?

Is there a way to get 3 Extra Attacks and tier 0 through 9 spells, again legally in 5th edition D&D?

Is there a way to legally have more than 1tier 9 spell per day, in 5th edition?

Lots and lots of Tomes/Manuals. You'd need five Tomes/Manuals, or three if you're a 20th level Barbarian and it's Strength or Constitution.

Nope-and that's a good thing. Why should you be able to get the Fighter's capstone AND the benefits of being a 17th or higher level full caster?

Epic Boons.

Counterquestion (Two, actually):

1) Why should any of that be desirable? Not from an in-game perspective. Obviously the Fighter would like it if he was as strong as Tiamat, or the Wizard as intelligent as Mystra, or whatever, but why should that be desirable from an OUT OF GAME perspective? Should it not be better to have challenges that have to be overcome with wits and skill, rather than just saying "My numbers are too high to be challenged"?

2) Have you ever played 5th Edition? At all?

[Contrast]

Snip

So its becoming increasing clear your initial question of 'are ranged characters viable in 5E?' (to which the answer was yes) wasn't what you wanted to know.

What you wanted to know was 'can I make a 3.5 character in 5e?'. The answer is no. You know where you can make that character? In 3.5. Glad we've cleared that up

[tkuremento]

Trying to read up on several pages so sorry if these things have already been said.

Firstly, it seems like you want there to be a rule for every possible scenario, as though the spin of a particle in your fingertip determines whether or not your fireball does an extra +1. 5e isn't that. Human with a feat is a variant that is technically optional, feats are also technically optional. Sure those two things are often used for sure, they are designed as optional.

I also get a bit of a feeling that regardless what is or isn't said, you are effectively a "Genwunner" in essence for this discussion. I almost feel as though regardless what is said, you will hold on to your older edition. I am sorry that the days of razor leaf critting and fire moves being special attack only are behind us. I am more genuinely sorry, though, if you don't understand this Pokemon reference.

[Chaosticket]

Honestly youre right about a lot. I have idealized view of older edition with its various settings that break the mold of tolkien. I like Planescape, Dark Sun, and Starjammer.

I like breaking class based gameplay and roles, so yes a DruidZilla is far more appealing than a generic character.

From what you say anything that doesnt fit what you think is right is overpowered and should be banned.

Me? That awes me so use it and teach me in the Ways of the Force.

[JNAProductions]

Honestly youre right about a lot. I have idealized view of older edition with its various settings that break the mold of tolkien. I like Planescape, Dark Sun, and Starjammer.

I like breaking class based gameplay and roles, so yes a DruidZilla is far more appealing than a generic character.

From what you say anything that doesnt fit what you think is right is overpowered and should be banned.

Me? That awes me so use it and teach me in the Ways of the Force.

Chaos, honest question here-have you come to this part of GitP with an open mind, to learn about 5th Edition and whether or not it'd be a good game for you, or are you just here to crap all over people that like it?

Because, to address that post point by point...

Planescape, Dark Sun, and Starjammer are all fully possible in 5th. Those are settings, mot mechanics. I'll agree that 5E is a little more Tolkien-esque, in that you can't become god-killing monstrosities, but that just means the game has a tighter focus. It focuses on heroes (or villains, or murderhobos) who are a cut above the ordinary, but not so far as to be one-man armies.

The second bit, that can easily be addressed via fluff. A character is only as generic as you make it. For instance, let me present this character to you-a nobleman, proud and maybe a bit arrogant, who has a massive temper. He's a wizard with a blade, favoring two-handed ones, but easily capable of going sword and board if he feels more defense is needed. He favors medium armor-little enough to let him move around freely, but not so little that he's unprotected. What class is he?

Spoiler: Answer

Show

My first thought is Barbarian. Medium armor, check. Great with a sword, check. Massive temper, check.

But he could easily be a Fighter, a Ranger, a Paladin... There's DEFAULT fluff, but there's nothing binding you there other than your own chains.

The third point, 5E has an actual balance point. The classes in the PHB and the supplements so far are all pretty close to balanced with each other. So yes, there are things that can be overpowered or underpowered, as opposed to 3.5 or PF, where there's everything from Commoners to Pun-Pun. Having a tighter focus does not make a game bad.

Finally, can you please not act so damn rude and condescending? You're really making an ass of yourself.

[Chaosticket]

Youre not gamers are you?

When I say anything about any game related activities its like we're speaking using different languages.

I can ask questions like "how do you win this game" and you dont think about strategies against Sephiroth or Diablo.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Youre not gamers are you?

When I say anything about any game related activities its like we're speaking using different languages.

I can ask questions like "how do you win this game" and you dont think about strategies against Sephiroth or Diablo.

there is no winning in D&D.

That is the fundamental issue here. You want to win. we keep telling you thats not how the game works.

[visitor]

In my opinion, the class based system is D&D's strength and appeal. Playing an iconic archetype and having other party members bring their individual strengths to the mix is the essence of D&D.

If you prefer a class-less system, there are many. My friends and I gravitated to Runequest in the early 80's partly because of this.

[Unoriginal]

there is no winning in D&D.

That is the fundamental issue here. You want to win. we keep telling you thats not how the game works.

This. There is no winning in D&D, except having fun.

[Morty]

Well, this thread has succeeded in improving my otherwise decidedly lukewarm opinion about 5E. So, it's accomplished something, I suppose.

That said, it does also make me realize that while 5E does a good job cutting away all the extraneous baggage 3E had, there's just... not much underneath. And the fact that it's hard to play an archer without shooting arrows/bolts like you're firing a machine-gun is entirely valid.

[2D8HP]

..thanks for weighing in with your grognardly wisdom.

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You're very welcome, and thank you!

---

Youre not gamers are you?

.
I think some in this thread have been rolling dice for more years than you've been alive @Chaosticket, but go on.

When I say anything about any game related activities its like we're speaking using different languages.

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Seems increasingly that way

I can ask questions like "how do you win this game" and you dont think about strategies against Sephiroth or Diablo.

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I had to do a web search to guess what you meant by "Sephiroth" and "Diablo", and as far as I can tell you're talking video games.

Your right, I know almost nothing about them.

Okay read these two setups:

Spoiler: set up from 76 years ago!

Show

“In the Year of the Behemoth, the Month of the Hedgehog, The Day of the Toad."

"Satisfied that they your near the goal of your quest, you think of how you had slit the interesting-looking vellum page from the ancient book on architecture that reposed in the library of the rapacious and overbearing Lord Rannarsh."

“It was a page of thick vellum, ancient and curiously greenish. Three edges were frayed and worn; the fourth showed a clean and recent cut. It was inscribed with the intricate hieroglyphs of Lankhmarian writing, done in the black ink of the squid. Reading":
"Let kings stack their treasure houses ceiling-high, and merchants burst their vaults with hoarded coin, and fools envy them. I have a treasure that outvalues theirs. A diamond as big as a man's skull. Twelve rubies each as big as the skull of a cat. Seventeen emeralds each as big as the skull of a mole. And certain rods of crystal and bars of orichalcum. Let Overlords swagger jewel-bedecked and queens load themselves with gems, and fools adore them. I have a treasure that will outlast theirs. A treasure house have I builded for it in the far southern forest, where the two hills hump double, like sleeping camels, a day's ride beyond the village of Soreev.

"A great treasure house with a high tower, fit for a king's dwelling—yet no king may dwell there. Immediately below the keystone of the chief dome my treasure lies hid, eternal as the glittering stars. It will outlast me and my name,"

And what first got me hooked on RPG's was this set-up:

Spoiler: Set up from 40 years ago

Show

100 years ago the sorcerer Zenopus built a tower on the low hills overlooking Portown. The tower was close to the sea cliffs west of the town and, appropriately, next door to the graveyard.
Rumor has it that the magician made extensive cellars and tunnels underneath the tower. The town is located on the ruins of a much older city of doubtful history and Zenopus was said to excavate in his cellars in search of ancient treasures.

Fifty years ago, on a cold wintry night, the wizard's tower was suddenly engulfed in green flame. Several of his human servants escaped the holocaust, saying their rnaster had been destroyed by some powerful force he had unleashed in the depths of the tower.
Needless to say the tower stood vacant fora while afterthis, but then the neighbors and the night watchmen comploined that ghostly blue lights appeared in the windows at night, that ghastly screams could be heard emanating from the tower ot all hours, and goblin figures could be seen dancina on the tower roof in the moonlight. Finally the authorities had a catapult rolled through the streets of the town and the tower was battered to rubble. This stopped the hauntings but the townsfolk continue to shun the ruins. The entrance to the old dungeons can be easily located as a flight of broad stone steps leading down into darkness, but the few adventurous souls who hove descended into crypts below the ruin have either reported only empty stone corridors or have failed to return at all.
Other magic-users have moved into the town but the site of the old tower remains abandoned.
Whispered tales are told of fabulous treasure and unspeakable monsters in the underground passages below the hilltop, and the story tellers are always careful to point out that the reputed dungeons lie in close proximity to the foundations of the older, pre-human city, to the graveyard, and to the sea.
Portown is a small but busy city 'linking the caravan routes from the south to the merchscant ships that dare the pirate-infested waters of the Northern Sea. Humans and non-humans from all over the globe meet here.
At he Green Dragon Inn, the players of the game gather their characters for an assault on the fabulous passages beneath the ruined Wizard's tower.

If those don't make you crave the DM asking you "What do you do?", then I guess we really don't have much we can agree on.

---

...My friends and I gravitated to Runequest in the early 80's partly because of this.

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That sound very familiar @visitor, did you play near Berkeley, California in the 1980's?

[PhoenixPhyre]

And the fact that it's hard to play an archer without shooting arrows/bolts like you're firing a machine-gun is entirely valid.

Be a rogue. Get big sneak attack damage on a single attack.

[MxKit]

Youre not gamers are you?

When I say anything about any game related activities its like we're speaking using different languages.

I can ask questions like "how do you win this game" and you dont think about strategies against Sephiroth or Diablo.

I play both video games and tabletop games. Yes, I'm a gamer.

Tabletop games are not video games. Team-based tabletop games should not play like one-player video games. Tabletop games where combat is supposed to challenge you should not be broken to the point that you can make combat entirely irrelevant. Games where one party member can one-shot other party members with absolutely nothing they can do about it are horrifically unbalanced and need to be fixed.

D&D is not, and should not be, Final Fantasy or Diablo. At this point you're being deliberately obtuse. We're not just telling you that it's impossible to make your character the way you seem to want to make them, we're telling you that it's good that you can't do that. In this tabletop game, D&D, that game you play with a group of people, specifically. The fact that you can't one-shot everything in the game including your party and render teamwork and dice rolling completely unnecessary is a feature, not a bug. It is in fact an anti-bug.

[Unoriginal]

Well, this thread has succeeded in improving my otherwise decidedly lukewarm opinion about 5E. So, it's accomplished something, I suppose.

That said, it does also make me realize that while 5E does a good job cutting away all the extraneous baggage 3E had, there's just... not much underneath. And the fact that it's hard to play an archer without shooting arrows/bolts like you're firing a machine-gun is entirely valid.

There's plenty undernearth. 5e isn't a simplified 3.X.

Also I don't understand what you mean about the archer. It's easy to not do that.

[visitor]

.

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That sound very familiar @visitor, did you play near Berkeley, California in the 1980's?

:) No, but I think it was a pretty common feeling at the time. Remember all the "But Gandalf used a sword!" arguements?

After all the tribute/copycat games came out (even riffing on the D&D name, like tunnels and trolls, bunnies and burrows, villains and vigilantes, chivary and sorcery, etc.), I think many felt constrained with the artificial and arbitrary restrictions that D&D had...and even moreso the heavy handed justifications and contortions TSR used to defend them.

So then there was a wave of games that touted their class-less system and better mechanics. But in the end, it was the setting > mechanics that made the game, I think.

[Chaosticket]

:)

So then there was a wave of games that touted their class-less system and better mechanics. But in the end, it was the setting > mechanics that made the game, I think.

Considering Dungeons and Dragons plagiarizes Lord of the Rings you should praise Tolkien.

Dungeons and Dragons is popular because game shops don't want to carry a variety.

[visitor]

Considering Dungeons and Dragons plagiarizes Lord of the Rings you should praise Tolkien.

Dungeons and Dragons is popular because game shops don't want to carry a variety.

D&D's setting is a generic fantasy setting, that players will/can adjust to their taste. And as Tolkien left a huge impression on the genre, yes, he also has a huge influence on people's expectations of a "fantasy setting". Is recognizing the contributions of some to the hobby bad?

You are in no way forced to play in a Tolkien-esque gameworld, and you yourself mentioned you prefer other settings, like Spelljammer, Dark Sun and such. Though I would say other game systems might be a better fit for other settings.


And I'm sure game shops want to run a financially viable business. Like Macy's, they will stock the most popular items. People don't buy and play D&D because it's the only game in the shop. I'm sure your local game store will special order an out of stock game for you if you ask.

[Unoriginal]

Considering Dungeons and Dragons plagiarizes Lord of the Rings you should praise Tolkien.

Dungeons and Dragons is popular because game shops don't want to carry a variety.

And now you've moved into outright trolling for the sake of trolling.

Seriously, dude, what do you want?

It's obvious you don't like 5e, and have no interest in talking about it. Why are you still on this forum?

[Willie the Duck]

And now you've moved into outright trolling for the sake of trolling.

Seriously, dude, what do you want?

It's obvious you don't like 5e, and have no interest in talking about it. Why are you still on this forum?

I think you answered your own question. I've never really understood the appeal of the activity, but there's no arguing that it's a level of attention from and vaguely control over others that might otherwise be hard to come by.

[Chaosticket]

I want freedom. I dont want to have to explain to people on a forum that I need protective rules guaranteeing me rights within a game for fun.

You think Im trolling? Youre say its a GOOD THING for people to have less rights. Youre expressing pro-oppressive views and Im Pro-freedom, so conflict.

Not everyone here is that way. Well this may go on further, but thanks for the few tips. 5th edition doesnt have enough guaranteed material to work with and all Im doing with it is thinking is when that new law passes giving me more rights.

[JNAProductions]

I want freedom. I dont want to have to explain to people on a forum that I need protective rules guaranteeing me rights within a game for fun.

You think Im trolling? Youre say its a GOOD THING for people to have less rights. Youre expressing pro-oppressive views and Im Pro-freedom, so conflict.

Not everyone here is that way. Well this may go on further, but thanks for the few tips. 5th edition doesnt have enough guaranteed material to work with and all Im doing with it is thinking is when that new law passes giving me more rights.

Quoted for posterity. I don't even know how to begin addressing what's wrong with this.

Edit: Okay, I'll try to address it.

WotC did not burn all your 3.5 books. They didn't storm your house and arrest you for playing older editions. They simply stopped supporting them.

There is no reasonable way you can compare pretty much ANYTHING in your tabletop gaming experience to actual, literal rights. People have fought and died for rights, and continue to do that today. (I won't go any deeper, due to forum rules, other than to say thank you, to everyone who does fight and risk their lives for other people.)

You are, at best, engaging in such ridiculous hyperbole that your actual stance is being distorted and you're coming out as sounding rude.

[2D8HP]

....rights.

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"Rights"?



We are talking about a game aren't we?

Since my first RPG (and I played it before I played almost all video games, and before I'd ever played a wargame) was 1977 rules Dungeons & Dragons (note '74 is when the game was first published, so I'm not talking completely original), that is what is imprinted on me as "proper" D&D, indeed most any gaming, and frankly if someone negatively said of D&D "that it's too restrictive, simple, lacking enough rules, etc" than I'd understand, if they were talking about that D&D, but those criticisms of 5e?

I don't see it.

[AvatarVecna]

I want freedom. I dont want to have to explain to people on a forum that I need protective rules guaranteeing me rights within a game for fun.

You think Im trolling? Youre say its a GOOD THING for people to have less rights. Youre expressing pro-oppressive views and Im Pro-freedom, so conflict.

Not everyone here is that way. Well this may go on further, but thanks for the few tips. 5th edition doesnt have enough guaranteed material to work with and all Im doing with it is thinking is when that new law passes giving me more rights.

I don't know how to say this in a way that will get through to you, but...you're not entitled to any particular ability in amy game you play. Maybe I'm phrasing that wrong, so I'll put it this way: just because 1st level Jedi in Star Wars Saga get a lightsaber and force sensitivity doesn't necessarily mean the otger classes are unplayable garbage or are being denied a basic right of playing star wars games. Similarly, that the Jedi 1 in Saga gets a lightsaber and force powers does not mean any system you play in needs a way for you to get those same abilities at level 1. I don't care that a high level 3.5 wizard is basically a god-level reality warper, if you're playing Firefly, the closest you're allowed to have to superpowers is being a Reader or a Reaver. Not being able to build an unbeatable demigod reality warper isn't trampling on your rights as a llayer if that doesn't fit the kind of game it is.

I like 3.5 a lot more than 5e for character-building, because the system heavily rewards system mastery. But I can' claim it's balanced; past a certain level, a group of players even all playing the exact same class will inevitably be unbalanced unless they are all very careful while building. 3.5 can be broken by new players on accident just by choosing cool spells.

5e is lower-powerb but high-level casters are still quite powerful compared to the layman...but they're not unbeatable.

[2D8HP]

Okay, I'm getting you a little better after viewing your other threads, you have your particular tastes, and you want to know if 5e will meet them.

I've done something similar with my

Exactly what levels is there "Caster Supremacy"?

and

Why don't I just play "Redgar"?

threads, to try and find out if and how I may enjoyable play 3.5 D&D/Pathfinder.

What I've learned is that I'll probably enjoy low level 3.x, but as the levels increase I'll probably enjoy it less, to an even greater extent than 5e, which I'm guessing would be the opposite of you.

If you do decide to play 5e, you'd probably enjoy higher levels more.

In my area finding a 5e table isn't that hard, but finding a Pathfinder table is easier.

Are you having trouble finding tables?

I now find that I enjoy 1st level playing 5e more than old D&D first level, but once I get to higher levels I prefer TSR D&D. But guess what: being able to play with actual other people is more fun than perfect games that don't actually get played.

If you want more people to play your prefered style/rules/whatever, then be the GM and host a game.

I'm still a little ticked off at the "bait and switch" you did with this thread though, as it's now apparent that you didn't actually want 5e build suggestions, you just wanted to do a stealth re-opening of a thread you asked to be closed.

Good luck.