Which to be? Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Goblins, Hobgoblins, Humans, or Orcs?

[Emanick]

Chiming in with the others here to say that being a gnome sounds best. They don't have any problems that we're aware of (besides Fox News, anyway), their civilization seems sophisticated, relatively comfortable and relatively high-magic, which must enhance quality of life considerably, and they live for a long time.

Of all the D&D races, I like dwarves the best, but they obviously get the short end of the stick in OOTSverse, so none of that, please. I also generally prefer elves to gnomes, but their civilization as depicted by Rich isn't really my cup of tea.

[BaronOfHell]

I'm growing old far too fast.

I pick being an Elf for the same reason.

Btw. iIRC V has been away from his family for 6 years, but if V had been human and had missed the same amount of family progress, how long would he actually have been away for? My guess is about half a year, but I have no idea if I am even close.

[Emanick]

I pick being an Elf for the same reason.

Btw. iIRC V has been away from his family for 6 years, but if V had been human and had missed the same amount of family progress, how long would he actually have been away for? My guess is about half a year, but I have no idea if I am even close.

Probably about a year and a half, I'd guess. In 3.5, elves spend 65 years in the period between coming of age and attaining middle age, and 240 years between coming of age and becoming Venerable (the final age category). Humans, on the other hand, spend 20 years as young adults and 55 years as non-Venerable adults. So elf adult categories last somewhere between three and five times as long as human ones.

Elves have weird lifespans. They spend nearly twice as many years in childhood as they do in the young adult phase of life, and can spend up to 400 years as senior citizens - sometimes the majority of their lives. Imagine turning 70 and then realizing you could live to 145 - yet not necessarily be any healthier (in fact, you'd have a Constitution penalty). That'd be strange, and not necessarily comforting. I imagine the elven lands being a lot like Japan (except with a lot more kids).

[Peelee]

I also generally prefer elves to gnomes, but their civilization as depicted by Rich isn't really my cup of tea.

We haven't really seen much of elven society, other than to know they are relatively insular and slow to act, as a nation. We've seen several people I didn't care for, but others I absolutely do.

[Lord Joeltion]

Dwarf? Thank you, but not. I'd rather preserve my sense of individuality.

Elf? Do elves regularly consume meat in the OOTS? Because that would be a definitive argument that would put me irreconcilably against elven cuisine, making me unfit to live in elven society. Ever. I'd like living in the forests tho.

Gnome? Gno-way! Hate those lil' punks. I would kick anything wearing those silly hats if I was an Evil Orc in OOTS

Goblin? Hobgoblin? Yes, I would very much like to become xp meatbag, please.

Human? Too vanilla, but if there's nothing else... At least I'd have an extra feat

Oh, wait, there's Orcs. Mmmmhhh... tempting, but I'm concerned about their current Puppetocracy movement that is overtaking their government. So, I'd rather pass.

Sincerely, I think there's a bunch of monstrous species I'd rather belong if I were in the Stickverse.

[goodpeople25]

Probably about a year and a half, I'd guess. In 3.5, elves spend 65 years in the period between coming of age and attaining middle age, and 240 years between coming of age and becoming Venerable (the final age category). Humans, on the other hand, spend 20 years as young adults and 55 years as non-Venerable adults. So elf adult categories last somewhere between three and five times as long as human ones.

Elves have weird lifespans. They spend nearly twice as many years in childhood as they do in the young adult phase of life, and can spend up to 400 years as senior citizens - sometimes the majority of their lives. Imagine turning 70 and then realizing you could live to 145 - yet not necessarily be any healthier (in fact, you'd have a Constitution penalty). That'd be strange, and not necessarily comforting. I imagine the elven lands being a lot like Japan (except with a lot more kids).

I believe gnomes are in a similar boat and possibly more so. There are less years potentially spent that way due to the shorter lifespan but relatively I think they spend a longer portion. (300 out of 500 compared to 400 out of 750)

But I don't trust myself with math that much. (It's easier to compare gnomes to dwarves since they start the same but gnomes reach the other age categories 25-50 year earlier them get an extra precentage dice to boost thier maximum age higher.)

[FreddyNoNose]

If Gnomes don't win this by a landslide I'll be very surprised.

Gnomes, because the other cultures have significant flaws that we know about.
Yes, being an Elf is by itself a significant flaw.

I agree.

I vote Gnome!

[zimmerwald1915]

We haven't really seen much of elven society, other than to know they are relatively insular and slow to act, as a nation. We've seen several people I didn't care for, but others I absolutely do.

What's strange is that this was, going by the commentary, supposed to be a subversion of reader expectations about elves being altruistic as a power. But for readers familiar with, say, Dragonlance or indeed most D&D-inspired fiction, this is exactly the kind of portrayal they'd expect.

I've argued elsewhere that the Elven lands act this way because they're a power in decline, but that's not a particularly original Elf trope either. It is a good reason not to want to live as an Elf in Elven Lands; the place is due for a fairly brutal conquest.

[goodpeople25]

What's strange is that this was, going by the commentary, supposed to be a subversion of reader expectations about elves being altruistic as a power. But for readers familiar with, say, Dragonlance or indeed most D&D-inspired fiction, this is exactly the kind of portrayal they'd expect.

I've argued elsewhere that the Elven lands act this way because they're a power in decline, but that's not a particularly original Elf trope either. It is a good reason not to want to live as an Elf in Elven Lands; the place is due for a fairly brutal conquest.

In decline equals automatic (or even likely) conquest? (Or is this an unconnected karma thing or a different elven lands?)

I mean yeah western continent, being weaker is hardly a good thing with postive consequences but I wouldn't jump straight to being conquered.

[zimmerwald1915]

In decline equals automatic (or even likely) conquest?

Sooner or later, yeah. Not, like, tomorrow or anything. But quite possibly within this elven generation, or the next. That's power politics.

[elros]

In this universe, it has to be the gnomes! Seems like a cool place to hang out, and you know, lightning guns!
Too bad DnD doesn't take their gnomes seriously...

[Kish]

But for readers familiar with, say, Dragonlance or indeed most D&D-inspired fiction, this is exactly the kind of portrayal they'd expect.

Yeah, it's actually pretty close to the joke Nale made about the drow.

Hey, wait a minute. Aren't elves more likely to be good than humans are?
Oh, my, no. Not since people started writing D&D tie-in fiction. Now, the whole species consists of nothing but pompous, self-absorbed, vicious racists.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, it's actually pretty close to the joke Nale made about the drow.

Hey, wait a minute. Aren't elves more likely to be good than humans are?
Oh, my, no. Not since people started writing D&D tie-in fiction. Now, the whole species consists of nothing but pompous, self-absorbed, vicious racists.

Please, they have been like that since the Silmarillion.

[Jay R]

I've been a human for 62 years. My wife is a human. I like being a human.

[Emanick]

Please, they have been like that since the Silmarillion.

Really? Pompous, I can see. Self-absorbed, arguably. Vicious racists? Unless you mean towards orcs - which in Tolkien's world are elves that have been corrupted by dark magic, not "just another race" as they typically are in D&D, and thus elves have a perfectly good reason to oppose them - I don't see how you could get that impression of elves from The Silmarillion.

[Fyraltari]

Really? Pompous, I can see. Self-absorbed, arguably. Vicious racists? Unless you mean towards orcs - which in Tolkien's world are elves that have been corrupted by dark magic, not "just another race" as they typically are in D&D, and thus elves have a perfectly good reason to oppose them - I don't see how you could get that impression of elves from The Silmarillion.

Thingol, Eöl, Oropher and Caranthir all made situations worse by their distate of Men, Dwarves or Elves from other tribe at some point.

Also: Mîm.

Also Orcs are a bit more complicated than just "evil former elves that it is totally okay to utterly slaughter", for once Elrond states that every race including animals and birds fought on both sides during the war of the Last Alliance except Elves who soleley opposed Sauron which can only mean that either Orcs are non-entities to Elrond or some of them fought alongside the Elves.

[hroþila]

Or maybe Elrond was using hyperbole to be poetic. I certainly don't think snails took part in the siege of Barad-dûr, or that there was a parallel moth civil war going on.

As for your examples, well, yeah, they exist. They prove that Tolkien's Elves aren't perfect Mary Sues, contrary to what pop culture would sometimes have you believe, but little else. Also, people forget there's a world of difference between the Noldor, the Sindar, the Nandor and the many Avari tribes.

[Fyraltari]

Or maybe Elrond was using hyperbole to be poetic. I certainly don't think snails took part in the siege of Barad-dûr, or that there was a parallel moth civil war going on.

Yeah, but I don't see why he couldn't say "except the Elves who stood with the Dûnedains and the Orcs, footsoldiers of the Ennemy". And it lines up pretty well with Tolkien's other comments on the role of the Orcs and his belief that no one was damned from birth.

As for your examples, well, yeah, they exist. They prove that Tolkien's Elves aren't perfect Mary Sues, contrary to what pop culture would sometimes have you believe, but little else. Also, people forget there's a world of difference between the Noldor, the Sindar, the Nandor and the many Avari tribes.

Exactly.

[zimmerwald1915]

Yeah, but I don't see why he couldn't say "except the Elves who stood with the Dûnedains and the Orcs, footsoldiers of the Ennemy". And it lines up pretty well with Tolkien's other comments on the role of the Orcs and his belief that no one was damned from birth.

Orcs in Middle-Earth have been known to engage in civil war and internecine backstabbing even at inopportune times for the Dark Lords. I don't find it difficult at all to believe that some Orcs turned on their commanders during the Battle of Dagorlad, or turned tail only to be hunted by Orc political officers. That would satisfy Elrond's statement by creating divisions in the Orc ranks without requiring any Orcs to affirmatively ally themselves with Gil-Galad and Elendil.

[Fyraltari]

Orcs in Middle-Earth have been known to engage in civil war and internecine backstabbing even at inopportune times for the Dark Lords. I don't find it difficult at all to believe that some Orcs turned on their commanders during the Battle of Dagorlad, or turned tail only to be hunted by Orc political officers. That would satisfy Elrond's statement by creating divisions in the Orc ranks without requiring any Orcs to affirmatively ally themselves with Gil-Galad and Elendil.

Sauron's pretty big on mind controlling troops during battles though. Not sure if it was already the case during Dagorlad but it is not unlikely.
I'll admit your explanation makes a whole lot of sense though, especially when you know that Oropher is counted as siding with the Last Alliance despite not coordinating with anyone and jumpstarting the whole thing.

[hroþila]

Bear in mind that the war lasted some 12 years, so there should be plenty of time for all kinds of shenanigans even if Sauron was fully in control during a specific major event like the Battle of Dagorlad.

[Fyraltari]

Bear in mind that the war lasted some 12 years, so there should be plenty of time for all kinds of shenanigans even if Sauron was fully in control during a specific major event like the Battle of Dagorlad.

True enough.

[KillingAScarab]

Dagorlad sounds like a super hero in Greysky City "saving" people from the Thieves Guild, or at least the sidekick to one. I wonder if they ever fought against Hinjoker...

[Emanick]

Thingol, Eöl, Oropher and Caranthir all made situations worse by their distate of Men, Dwarves or Elves from other tribe at some point.

Also: Mîm.

Also Orcs are a bit more complicated than just "evil former elves that it is totally okay to utterly slaughter", for once Elrond states that every race including animals and birds fought on both sides during the war of the Last Alliance except Elves who soleley opposed Sauron which can only mean that either Orcs are non-entities to Elrond or some of them fought alongside the Elves.

Yeah, I wasn't intending to imply that it's fine to brutally slaughter all orcs. That would be morally reprehensible. I more meant that their minds have been twisted to the point that they have a clear "natural" disposition towards evil and violence, something that doesn't have a real-world analogy and that probably (?) is closer to the way Rich treats fiends than the way he treats actual orcs and goblinoids. For instance, Tolkien wrote in one letter that the orcs probably killed one another off during the Fourth Age because they were incapable of restraining themselves from natural bloodlust, even though to do otherwise was their only hope of survival.

And yes, plenty of individual elves clearly behaved deplorably during (and between) the wars against Morgoth. I just think it's a significant overstatement to say they generally behaved like vicious racists. They generally treated humans well, for instance (unless my memory deludes me - I admit I can't remember the part of The Silmarillion where the two races first came into contact terribly well), and most if not all interactions they had with orcs seem to have taken place on the battlefield. They aren't Mary Sues, but they also seem to behave generally more humanely than real-world humans.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, I wasn't intending to imply that it's fine to brutally slaughter all orcs. That would be morally reprehensible. I more meant that their minds have been twisted to the point that they have a clear "natural" disposition towards evil and violence, something that doesn't have a real-world analogy and that probably (?) is closer to the way Rich treats fiends than the way he treats actual orcs and goblinoids. For instance, Tolkien wrote in one letter that the orcs probably killed one another off during the Fourth Age because they were incapable of restraining themselves from natural bloodlust, even though to do otherwise was their only hope of survival.

And yes, plenty of individual elves clearly behaved deplorably during (and between) the wars against Morgoth. I just think it's a significant overstatement to say they generally behaved like vicious racists. They generally treated humans well, for instance (unless my memory deludes me - I admit I can't remember the part of The Silmarillion where the two races first came into contact terribly well), and most if not all interactions they had with orcs seem to have taken place on the battlefield. They aren't Mary Sues, but they also seem to behave generally more humanely than real-world humans.

Yeah I was not exactly serious. It is just that "racist arrogant asses" is a characterization that was never utterly unfair for Elves (I have certainly seen Simarillions fans call them that) and generally seem to stick to them in every work they appear. Probably because that the idea of a naturally superior species rubs your public the wrong way.

[Peelee]

It is just that "racist arrogant asses" is a characterization that was never utterly unfair for Elves snip]and generally seem to stick to them in every work they appear.

Well, Dragon Age.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, Dragon Age.

... Every culture in Dragon Age is racist, though. The elves in the cities not as much, but the ones in the forest in Origins are insufferable (I don't know the lore enough to know if that is generalised, or due to the a-hole in charge of that particular group, though).

GW

[Peelee]

... Every culture in Dragon Age is racist, though. The elves in the cities not as much, but the ones in the forest in Origins are insufferable (I don't know the lore enough to know if that is generalised, or due to the a-hole in charge of that particular group, though).

GW

Aw, I'd forgotten the wood elves. Yeah, I was just thinking of the city ones. My bad.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Aw, I'd forgotten the wood elves. Yeah, I was just thinking of the city ones. My bad.

The city elves, like every other social group at the bottom of the social ladder, probably are also racist, in the "who can blame them, though" sense - i.e. when they say that "all humans are bastards for putting us in ghettos" that is both racist and nevertheless accurate. Careful statistical analysis could reveal that most humans don't want the city elves in ghettos, but clearly not enough of them are willing to do anything about it, so they all share in the guilt.

I can't remember, if you complete Origins as a city elf, do you get told that you get rid of the ghettos in Ferelden?

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

Spoiler: No.

Show

If you complete DA1 and die and Alistair is left as King, he takes steps to move toward elven social equality to the limit of what he's able to affect; if Anora is Queen she does nothing to change the status quo.

If you live, you can ask the king or queen to appoint an Arl of the alienage, if you choose; it will not go well, as making racist humans in Ferelden suddenly accept elves as equals is beyond the ruler's power.

Under no circumstances can you close down all the alienages.