Star Wars Saga Thread IV: A New Hope

[LibraryOgre]

Personally, I treat ion as it is in the books, save that when you shoot shields, it acts as a shieldbuster torpedo*. Basically, if you bet the SR, you drop the shields by 10 instead of 5. Happens at character and vehicle scale. It's not huge, but it's a bit better.

Overall, Ion could be much better. Maybe doing full damage against vehicles/droids/cyborgs?

That would be an improvement.

And, since the OP didn't limit us to SAGA, let's talk about how D6 did it.

1) Ion cannons ignored shields. (2e R&E*, page 127, "Shields cannot protect a ship from ion cannon damage.")
2) Ion cannons did not do "real" damage... you couldn't blow up a ship with ion cannons. Instead, you did "controls ionized"... 1D to 4D in penalties to maneuverability, fire control, and shields. (2e R&E, page 128, "The ship loses -ID from its maneuverability, shields and weapon fire control and damage for the rest of that round and the next round.
If a ship is suffering from as many controls ionized results as the ship has maneuverability dice, the ship's controls are frozen for the next two rounds. The ship must maintain the same speed and direction for the next two rounds; it may not turn, fire weapons, make shield attempts or take any other actions, making the ship an easy target for enemy gunners.")

So, for example, let's look at the Y-Wing (2e R&E, page 249). Hull of 4D, 1D+2 Shields, 2D of Maneuverability, and 2 light ion cannons that fire linked on the turret. They have 3D of Fire control and do 4D damage (the Y-Wing also has blaster cannons and proton torpedos, but we'll ignore them for right now). If one Y-wing shoots another Y-Wing, the 4D damage is rolled against 4D hull. If the hull total is higher, no effect. If the cannon's damage is higher than the hull? At 0-3, the target is down to 1D of Maneuverability, +2 of shields (which are irrelevant to this fight), and 2D of Fire control. If they cannon damage is 4-8 points higher (or any higher than 4 points), then the Y-Wing has lost ALL maneuverability and shields, and so is stuck going in the same direction at the same speed for 2 rounds. Two hits from the cannons on successive rounds and the Y-Wing is a ballistic missile for 2 rounds.

Ion cannons could ruin your day in D6, because Ion cannons ignored your fancy shields and could render you adrift, at least for a little. Star Destroyers had 1D of maneuverability dice... any hit from an ion cannon that equaled or beat their 7D hull dice** would leave them adrift for 2 rounds.

*2e R&E refers to WEG's Star Wars Role-playing Game, 2nd Edition, Revised and Expanded.
**7D Hull dice, adjusted for scale. A Y-Wing was a Starfighter scale ship, while a Star Destroyer was Capital scale. That meant the Y-Wing got +6D to try to HIT the Star Destroyer, but the Star Destroyer got +6D to resist damage from the shot. Your Y-Wing, running its 4D Starfighter Ion Cannon, is probably not going to cripple a Star Destroyer, which rolls 13D to resist your damage... even without its shields.

[Blackhawk748]

Ion ignoring shields would be a big help, sombine that with tossing on an extra damage dice and i think it'd be ok.

[Sparx MacGyver]

I think I'll make these changes in my game:

• Ion ignores shields. Whether grenades (or other character scale weapons) or vehicle scale. Also, benefit of dropping shields by 10 (rather than 5) if you overcome the SR*.
• Make Ion do full damage against vehicles/droids/equipment. This includes cybernetics. Penalties apply for broken cybernetics.
• Otherwise, treat ion as the rules state for organics and what not. Ion really shouldn't do anything to them, and

While I doubt a Y-Wing could do anything against a Star Destroyer (SR 150 vs 44 damage average), this would help. Perhaps another option is to bump up ion cannons by +1 die of damage and bump the multiplier by 1, so a light cannon does 4d10x3, so 66 on average. Still not a huge swing against that Star Destroyer, but even if we only boosted one of those, it might help against like vehicles. Of course, that fix only really helps against other vehicles. Player scale should probably remain as is, but with the above listed changes.

*I said ignore shields, but the reason for dropping them would be that anybody with them, whether at vehicle or character scale, the shields take a hit from ion, which means they can still be brought down overall and makeing them more useless against regular weaponry.

All needs to be play-tested, but any criticisms?

[Pleh]

Well, I'll point out that recreating most iconic Star Wars space battles will mean having at least a dozen Y Fighters against twice as many Tie Fighters while the Ys are trying to disable the Star Destroyer by targeting critical systems.

You'll want to take that into account when running your numbers.

[Sparx MacGyver]

That's fair enough. True the TIE's already have a hard time as it is. So what would be a good upgrade for ion? Just ignoring shields and full damage?

[Blackhawk748]

That's fair enough. True the TIE's already have a hard time as it is. So what would be a good upgrade for ion? Just ignoring shields and full damage?

If im going after a TIE in a Y-Wing, its having a bad day to begin with. I dont think increasing the damage of Ion weapons is gonna make them at any less of a disadvantage.

[Pleh]

If im going after a TIE in a Y-Wing, its having a bad day to begin with. I dont think increasing the damage of Ion weapons is gonna make them at any less of a disadvantage.

In general, TIEs don't really worry about Ion weapons, because they already don't have shields.

The point of Ion weapons is for disabling shields and paralyzing ships. When I think Ion cannon I think of what the Rebels used at Hoth. A giant ion cannon should be able to quickly paralyze a Star Destroyer that blunders into range without expecting a fight.

Based on the movies, I would want Ion weapons to target shields first, then wreak havok on ship systems that aren't shielded.

Maybe Ion weapons should be more limited in range and power than their lethal counterparts, but shields can be managed if you have someone maintaining shield integrity and you steer clear of any direct Ion attacks.

Edit: to clarify on TIEs not caring about Ion damage, it's mostly due to the fact that it should be easier to smash them with regular laser/blast weapons, since those weapons deal so much more damage. With Ion, you can disable the TIE, but you might have to hit them twice as many times as just blowing them out of the sky.

[Blackhawk748]

In general, TIEs don't really worry about Ion weapons, because they already don't have shields.

The point of Ion weapons is for disabling shields and paralyzing ships. When I think Ion cannon I think of what the Rebels used at Hoth. A giant ion cannon should be able to quickly paralyze a Star Destroyer that blunders into range without expecting a fight.

Based on the movies, I would want Ion weapons to target shields first, then wreak havok on ship systems that aren't shielded.

Maybe Ion weapons should be more limited in range and power than their lethal counterparts, but shields can be managed if you have someone maintaining shield integrity and you steer clear of any direct Ion attacks.

Edit: to clarify on TIEs not caring about Ion damage, it's mostly due to the fact that it should be easier to smash them with regular laser/blast weapons, since those weapons deal so much more damage. With Ion, you can disable the TIE, but you might have to hit them twice as many times as just blowing them out of the sky.

Well yes, but that part wasn't my point (and sorry for the confusion). I was just saying that regardless of the condition of the Y Wing's Ion Cannon, the TIE is screwed. Hell, the Y Wing could double up its front shields and then ram the friggin thing and come out all right.

Edit: So i just bought a couple of Star Wars West End 2nd Ed books, specifically i got the last and second last books of the Darkstryder campaign, has anyone ran this? And how good is it? Cuz im debating about updating it to SAGA and running it eventually.

And as a second point i got the book Wanted by Cracken and im wondering how to convert the rewards to SAGA credits, as they seem kinda low for what they are doing.

[Blackhawk748]

Ok, so i think over a month is clear to not worry about double posting.

Im still doing precampaign stuff for my prequels (life intervened so we havent started yet) and i've realized there is no statblock for Qui Gon Jin, so im gonna need a build for him and im taking suggestions. Also Nute Gunray doesnt have one either, but hes pretty easy as im sure straight Noble will do the job fine.

In a similar note is there a better way to build Greivous? Cuz while i think hes got a fine base im not super impressed with him.

[Mando Knight]

Im still doing precampaign stuff for my prequels (life intervened so we havent started yet) and i've realized there is no statblock for Qui Gon Jin, so im gonna need a build for him and im taking suggestions.

If the players aren't going to see the statblock, you should be fine if you start with either the Ep III Obi-Wan block from the core book or one of the generic Jedi Master blocks from Threats of the Galaxy and nudge things a little based on what you want him to be focused on.

In a similar note is there a better way to build Greivous? Cuz while i think hes got a fine base im not super impressed with him.

That depends on what you want your Grievous to do, as 14 discrete levels aren't enough to nail every bit of his character as-presented. Grievous, Cyborg General of the Droid Army would have a different build than Grievous, Whirling Death Machine "Trained in your Jedi Arts by Count Dooku". Optimizing for the former would lead you to the Leader of Droids feat and more Officer levels, while the latter would look at qualifying for Melee Duelist, as it's the best way to make non-Force-Using melee full attacks viable in Saga.

[Blackhawk748]

That depends on what you want your Grievous to do, as 14 discrete levels aren't enough to nail every bit of his character as-presented. Grievous, Cyborg General of the Droid Army would have a different build than Grievous, Whirling Death Machine "Trained in your Jedi Arts by Count Dooku". Optimizing for the former would lead you to the Leader of Droids feat and more Officer levels, while the latter would look at qualifying for Melee Duelist, as it's the best way to make non-Force-Using melee full attacks viable in Saga.

That is a good point. Hmmmm... Now im thinking of just making two stat blocks for him...

[Mando Knight]

That is a good point. Hmmmm... Now im thinking of just making two stat blocks for him...

The Star Wars GM's cheat option, "Schrodinger's Vader"--Darth Vader (etc.) is simultaneously his ace pilot build, his combat build, and his troop leader build until the encounter determines which statblock is most useful.

[Lord Haart]

In case you ever wish to have Grievous, Gennady Tartakovsky's Fear-Mongering Jedi-Killer, here's a neat little stat-block i just randomly happen to have around (and, purely coincidentally, it's set exactly at level 14).

Spoiler

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General Grievous

Medium Kaleesh (cyborg hybrid) scoundrel 1/soldier 11/elite trooper 1/assassin 1

Destiny 14; Force 13; Dark Side 8
Init +19; Senses darkvision, Perception +13 (+15 with improved sesor package)
Languages Basic, Kaleesh
Defenses Ref 31 (29 flat-footed), Fort 28, Will 24; 0
hp 91; Threshold 30
Speed 6 squares

Melee unarmed +17 (1d6+12)
Melee lightsaber +17 (2d8+12)
Melee lightsaber +17 (2d8+12)
Ranged blaster pistol, heavy +15 (3d8+7)
Ranged ascension gun +15 (3d8+7)
Base Atk +13; Grp +17
Atk Options Cunning Attack, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Sniper
Special Actions Desperate Gambit

Abilities: Str 18, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 12

Special Qualities: Darkvision, Driven, Persistant, Skill Focus Survival if trained, Delay Damage, cybernetical enchantments, cyborg hybrid.

Cybernetics: Implant (Dual-gear), Implant (Dual-gear), Implant (Enviromental sealing), Implant (Enviromental sealing), Implant (Enviromental sealing), Implant (Enviromental sealing), Skeletal reinforcement, Sensory enhancement, Tremor sensor
Droid sýstems: walking locomotion, climbing claws, jump servos, 6 hand appendages, improved sensor package, darkvision.

Talents: Dastardly Strike, Ambush Specialist, Keep Them Reeling, Spring the Trap, Melee Smash, Stunning Strike, Manipulating Strike, Improved Stunning Strike, Devastating Attack (lightsabers) (swapped for Improved Manipulating Strike with Adaptable Talent)

Feats: Armor Proficiency (light), Armor Proficiency (medium), Cunning Attack, Desperate Gambit, Martial Arts I, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Skill Focus (Initiative, Persuasion), Sniper, Weapon Proficiency (lightsabers), Weapon Proficiency (pistols), Weapon Proficiency (simple), Adaptable Talent

Skills: Acrobatics +14, Initiative +19, Knowledge (Tactics) +14, Perception +13, Persuasion +18, Stealth +14

Possessions: lightsaber, lightsaber, lightsaber, lightsaber, heavy blaster pistol, ascension gun (dual-geared with implant), tool kit (dual-geared with implant), utility belt


Tactical abilities:

Desperate gambit (Scum and Villainy) — once per turn, on missed attack roll, reroll it (accepting second result even if worse) and take -2 penalty to reflex until the end of your next turn (-5 if roll was natural 1).

Dastardly strike (core) — Successful attacks against opponents that is flat-footed or denied their Dexterity bonus to Reflex Defense move them -1 step down the condition track

Ambush Specialist (Rebellion Era) — If you are not surprised on the first round of combat in an encounter, you can treat the first round of combat as if it were the surprise round for the purposes of talents and feats that trigger only during the surprise round. Additionally, during the surprise round as a free action you can designate that target as your prime target. You gain a +2 morale bonus to attack rolls against your prime target until the end of the encounter.

Keep them reeling (Rebellion Era) — Once per tum as a swift action, you can make an Initiative check, opposed by the Initiative check of your prime target. If your check result equals or exceeds your prime target's check result, your target is flat-footed against all attacks you make before the end of your turn.
Prerequisite: Ambush Specialist.

Spring the trap (Rebellion Era) — If you and all your allies roll higher Initiative checks to start combat than do all your opponents, you automatically gain a surprise round, even if the opponents are aware of you when combat begins.

Stunning strike (core) — Upon damaging an opponent with a melee attack with an attack roll exceeding their damage threshold, they move an additional -1 step down the condition track

Manipulating strike (Scum and Villainy) — Once per turn when you successfully damage a target with a non-area attack, make an immediate Persuasion check against the target's Will Defense. If successful, you determine what the target does with its swift action on its next turn.

Improved Manipulating strike (Scum and Villainy) — Whenever you successfully use the Manipulating Strike talent, you determine what the target does with its move action on its next turn.

Improved Stunning Strike (Clone Wars) — When you damage an opponent with a melee attack that moves the target down the condition track, the target cannot take any action requiring a standard or full-round action on its next turn.

Cunning Attack (The Force Unleashed) — +2 to attack rolls against flat-footed enemies


Cybernetics +9 000 cr

Cybernetic Implant Rejection Installed Cost Surgery Avail Properties/Upgrade Slot
Borg construct +14 R Link to computers 10 m, +2 bonus to skills, -5 to Persuasion
Comlink, subcutaneous +3 R Send communications soundlessly
Cybernetic prosthesis - 6
1 - Yes 2500 500 C Dual gear
2 - Yes 1500 500 C Dual gear
3 - Yes 1500 500 C Environmental sealing
4 - Yes 1500 500 C Environmental sealing
5 - Yes 1500 500 C Environmental sealing
6 - Yes 1500 500 C Environmental sealing
Eye, infrared sensor +14 R Darkvision
Eye, targeting +16 M Helmet Package
Eye, telescopic +9 R Range penalties to Perception every 20 squares instead of 10
Skeletal reinforcement +12 Yes 10000 50000 R +2 bonus to Damage Threshold
Sensory enhancement +14 Yes 800 3000 R Reduces penalties to Perception vs. concealment by 2
Tremor sensor +7 Yes 400 3750 R No penalty to Perception vs. concealment if target has moved

Basically, he's a melee condition-track-killer (that just happens to also be fully functional at range, with Precise Shot and even Sniper) that does not care about your damage threshold, nearly always gets to hit you flat-footed and, neatest of all, needs a single hit to deny you your standart, full-round, move AND swift actions. All at once. Better yet, he gets to CHOOSE your move and swift action for you. So if, say, purely hypothetically, he needs to duel a fully optimised Jedi 'cause you made a bet that a high-level optimised Jedi is still beatable with a non-Force using character… The Jedi will surely pack at least some powers (or Forms) usable as swift actions, so enjoy emptying these into thin air. Better yet, enjoy scaring them into striking themselves (or their allies, if any are present)!
(Fluff idea with determining enemy's actions without using the Force is that you make 'em panic to the point of utterly losing their cool, blindly trying to avoid your blows and falling right into your traps. Crunch effect is that, well, you choose what they do with their actions, no real limitations placed, nothing preventing you from tapping their Force abilities or Lightsaber forms or screwing with their equipment or whatever.)

It's also really tight built, up to and including using Adaptable Talent feat just to get an extra talent in place. Doesn't go into equipmentmancy, though, save for some cybernetics-picking — which incidentally makes it even better as an NPC, since you don't have to worry about players getting too much upgraded equipment.

[Sparx MacGyver]

Outside of the core book, is there an skills for pc's on a starship?

I wanna put together a nice list with formula's for my players so we don't have to reference books all the time.

[Mando Knight]

Outside of the core book, is there an skills for pc's on a starship?

I wanna put together a nice list with formula's for my players so we don't have to reference books all the time.

Starships of the Galaxy (naturally) has additional rules for skills on starships on pages 18-19: pilots can feint or create a diversion to hide with Deception (taking a -5 if they aren't trained in Pilot, but adding both the ship's size and Dexterity modifiers to the check); Perception checks at Starship Scale impose a -5 for every square (instead of every 10 squares as in character scale); pilots can also use Stealth to sneak their starship around (besides the cloaking devices in SotG, Scum & Villainy has additional tech to install on a ship to help it sneak about); and finally SotG also expands and codifies Use Computer for astrogation, communications, and sensors.

[Blackhawk748]

The Star Wars GM's cheat option, "Schrodinger's Vader"--Darth Vader (etc.) is simultaneously his ace pilot build, his combat build, and his troop leader build until the encounter determines which statblock is most useful.

Ya, im just gonna make two builds for him. Probably a Soldier/Noble/Officer build for when hes being an Admiral and the Fear Murder Machine for everything else.

*absolute horror*

This is just horrific on a conceptual level. Good job sir, im gonna use this, and my PCs will probably hate me.

Anyway, we've finally ended our Deadlands game (after chasing the villain across the literal entirety of the US) and now we will be starting our Star Wars game next week. I've got Nute Gunray stated if i need him (hes a Noble/Scoundrel), and im currently working on Pre Vizsla:

Spoiler: Pre Vizsla, Deathwatch Commander

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Human Soldier 7/Gunslinger 2/Elite Warrior 4

Str:14
Dex:18
Con:14
Int:14
Wis:14
Cha:16

Feats:Point Blank Shot, Martial Arts 1, Coordinated Attack, Quick Draw, Dual Weapon Mastery 2, ???
Bonus Feats: Dual Weapon Mastery I, Precise Shot, Double Attack

Talents:Commanding Presence, Armored Defense, Imp Armored Defense, Feared Warrior, Multiattack Proficiency (Pistols), Devastating Attack (Pistols, Indomitable.

Skills: Initiative, Knowledge (Tactics), Perception, Persuasion, Pilot

Basically he Dual Wields Pistols and works ok with his other soldiers. So, how can i improve him?

Edit: Swapped out some Gunslinger Levels for some Elite Warrior levels and gave him Commanding Presence and Feared Warrior instead of Fool's Luck and Lucky shot, as these feel like a better match.

Spoiler: Nute Gunray

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Noble 4/Scoundrel 3/Crime Lord 2
Str 8
Dex 13
Con 10
Int 15
Wis 16
Cha 18

Talents: Connections, Wealth, Art of Concealment, Illicit Dealings, Impel Ally 1, Impel Ally 2

Feats: Quick Draw, Linguist, Skill Focus (Deception), Point Black Shot, Precise Shot, Skill Focus (Persuasion), Rapid Shot, Running Attack

Skills: Deception, Gather Information, Init, Knowledge (Bureaucracy, Law, Galactic Lore) Persuasion, Use Computer