The Last Jedi 2: The Next Last Jedi

[Scowling Dragon]

You're saying here that no one could have done anything with what Abrams did in The Force Awakens. That's a pretty bold claim. You're basically saying that the trilogy was destined to be a failure once The Force Awakens hit theaters. I don't know how that can be supported.

Not failure. It was destined to make a ton of money in the short term and then once the hype wore off to be kinda forgettable. Th

So no, Luke isn't automatically a coward or impotent or any of the things you've leveled at him in TFA. What we know is that "in his absence", the First Order has risen. Meaning Snoke was hesitating to make a move because of Luke's potential opposition. So Luke didn't abandon a galaxy in need. He went away, and because he was no longer around, the First Order got bold and made its move against the Republic.

The title crawl for Revenge of the Sith Said that there where heroes on both sides and that didn't really mean anything in the end.
My point is that his absense would have had to been exceptionally long for him to miss out on the rise of the First Orders rise to power.
Like 15 years long. And thats being ultra generous. Im counting that as the minimum time for the Empire to get its army of Kidnapped children to grow up.

So fair enough. I set up my stipulations, and now you have to make them make sense WITH the reasoning that Luke Left a Map in two pieces for no reason and gave no instructions to anybody else on how to find him(Nobody even knew that R2 had the second half ofthe map)
So for what reason could Luke leave behind the galaxy, for 15 years, without a note, without a way to communicate with his friends or family, whilst also leaving behind a map in the most crazy places possible with no mention of where to find the pieces.

[Aeson]

The ships size has nothing to do with the Unknown Regions issues. It's a region filled with incredibly hostile factions, all sorts or gravity wells and a mess of navigational issues. Frankly it's a bit of a miracle anyone from outside knows much of anything about it.

As for why the Republic didn't go there, they didn't know where Thrawn was from and there's no reason why the FO would have left any navigational info behind. Honestly the probably pretended to just be in a few systems on the edge of the Unknown Regions and didn't tip their hand until later. Remember, they weren't stupid until TLJ.

If a large part of the Star Wars Galaxy or its vicinity is unexplored and generally referred to as the "Unknown Regions" even by the Jedi, then the Jedi librarian in Attack of the Clones isn't merely arrogant - she's blatantly incompetent, because she claims that the Jedi library contains records for everything that exists despite the existence of an unexplored region being more or less common knowledge. If the Jedi librarian is not blatantly incompetent, then the Unknown Reaches do not exist, at least not as portrayed in the old EU material.

One could argue that it is only the Jedi for whom the Unknown regions are not unknown ... but the last 'canonical' figure I heard for Jedi numbers in the late Old Republic period was about ten thousand. If the Jedi have up-to-date information on most or all of the galaxy, as would be implied by the Jedi librarian's claim in Attack of the Clones, then that information has to be coming from somewhere, and it isn't coming from Jedi alone if there are only ten thousand or so Jedi in the entire galaxy. Even if the Jedi have exclusive access to the information provided by whatever sources are used to keep their library up to date, though, there's the minor issue that the Star Wars setting has an extremely fast form of superluminal travel which is also apparently relatively inexpensive (especially in EU material, where personal space ships might not be quite as common as personal cars but do seem to be about as common as personal yachts) and has been widely available for a very long time (especially in EU material), and intelligent robots capable of long-term independent operation are likewise widely available and inexpensive enough that even slaves can have them. Star Wars might not have a galaxy-level equivalent of Google Earth and your average ship might not have complete charts for the entire galaxy, but the idea that a large part of the Star Wars galaxy or its immediate vicinity is unexplored and almost totally unknown doesn't hold up very well to inspection.

(Also, before anyone brings up The Empire Strikes Back, note that it is settlements - not planets or systems - that Ozzel states are uncharted, and that neither the Rebellion nor the Empire nor the bounty hunters appear to have navigational issues due to a lack of maps of the local region of space.)

[hamishspence]

If a large part of the Star Wars Galaxy or its vicinity is unexplored and generally referred to as the "Unknown Regions" even by the Jedi, then the Jedi librarian in Attack of the Clones isn't merely arrogant - she's blatantly incompetent, because she claims that the Jedi library contains records for everything that exists despite the existence of an unexplored region being more or less common knowledge.

It could be a case of them having identified the locations of the systems (via astronomy etc) without actually having visited them.

Her statement is "If a system is not in our records, it does not exist".

[Scowling Dragon]

It could be a case of them having identified the locations of the systems (via astronomy etc) without actually having visited them.

Her statement is "If a system is not in our records, it does not exist".

Once again this is all fan supplemental material that already contradicts itself. Aperantly the evil space republicans (Because the Author is very subtle) where channeling the space resources to the FO. Well nobody tracked that, and nobody could find evidence for the largest construction projects in history, and somehow that could all be channeled for decades without a scrap of information getting out.

I need to take a break.

[hamishspence]

"There are places The New Republic does not have access to" makes sense in the context of the new movies.

They look even more incompetent if there are no Unknown Regions. Having them, makes the New Republic a bit less incompetent - though a long way from competent.

[Mightymosy]

Once again this is all fan supplemental material that already contradicts itself. Aperantly the evil space republicans (Because the Author is very subtle) where channeling the space resources to the FO. Well nobody tracked that, and nobody could find evidence for the largest construction projects in history, and somehow that could all be channeled for decades without a scrap of information getting out.

I need to take a break.

Yeah you really need to take a break, you don't see the obvious anymore

The FO could grow and expand because Luke Skywalker failed to keep watch.
It's all explained in TFA's opening crawl.
Luckily we have Rian Johnson to tell us that we shouldn't have trusted him in the first place, evil and cowardly as he is.
Who we should trust? Well, ask Johnson.

[Scowling Dragon]

"There are places The New Republic does not have access to" makes sense in the context of the new movies.

They look even more incompetent if there are no Unknown Regions. Having them, makes the New Republic a bit less incompetent - though a long way from competent.

My point is again we are applying band-aids to brain tumors here, but for what reason?

Outside of the IP what makes these new Star Wars Movies so deserving of all this leniency? Their derivative, characters are not fully realised, the storytelling riddled with holes, and clearly motivated and designed to apease shareholders first, not even the Disney Heads (As in short term massive gains over stable longterm gains).

I have a desire to see the Prequel films fixed because they did take plenty of risks and showed off a certain level of willingness and courage to break formulas, and try new things. It failed at almost everything, but the ambition I can respect, even if it led to its downfall in major places.

But just what do I get if even TFA made sense? The same stories, visuals, character types, repeated beat for beat. More of the same. Its a remake essentially. Why should people be putting in all this effort to have a sloppy remake make sense?

What is there to gain? Like there are decades worth of supplemental material if you want "More OT please" and that has the advantage of being made without an oppressive over-hiarchy (Or I mean less oppressive).

Yeah you really need to take a break, you don't see the obvious anymore

I didn't give a rats behind about Rian Jonson. I was pointing out that Luke was doing stupid things when TFA had just come out. Of course the self congratulator smarm I could do without.

TFA begins with the heroes of the OT having failed in the ways they had triumphed before. A explanation would just explain the wounds already, but the idea to have them all be failures was a delibarate decision.
Disney Decided to have the ST be about how the old heroes where all massive failures.

[Dr.Samurai]

Yeah you really need to take a break, you don't see the obvious anymore

The FO could grow and expand because Luke Skywalker failed to keep watch.
It's all explained in TFA's opening crawl.

It's not all explained in the crawl, but the premise is there. It's simply flat out wrong to say Luke is a coward or impotent because he's not around in TFA and is letting the First Order go unchecked. It's flat out wrong to say that Rian had to do things the way he did, or it was always going to suck because of the set up in TFA. Remember, we're talking specifically about Luke here.

Abrams didn't make Luke a (near)child-killer and defeated has-been uninterested in saving his sister or the Republic that he once helped to win back from the Empire. Rian Johnson did that. Nothing, absolutely nothing, that we see or are told in TFA, hint at what we got from Luke in TLJ. To say or imply otherwise is simply wrong.

I'm not saying what Abrams set up was good, or that I like it. I don't. I really didn't need everything to try and appeal to my nostalgia. It didn't matter one lick to me to see Han and Chewie enter the Falcon and say "Chewie, we're home". I don't need that set up. I don't need Rey to call it a hunk of trash and have the camera pan over to reveal the Falcon. Less reveals, no fanfare. Just tell a good story without trying to wow me. Anyways, not the point.

The point is, don't lose your mind over how bad the sequel trilogy is so far. You sound unreasonable by saying that TLJ had to be so bad because Abrams made it that way from the start.

[Mightymosy]

Ok, first of all. Don't kill a character from the OT off-screen (though I know that ship is sailing away already). Second of all, don't Black-Dude-Dies-First Lando so hard he's dead before the movie even starts. That's just a complete non-starter. Anyway, TLJ isn't allowed to rewrite TFA at this point, so this couldn't have worked. It'd also change how Kylo Ren is perceived. It'd be harder to sell him as conflicted after such a major betrayal.
[...]

Sorry.
But at least my version gave Lando a meaningful death. Right now he did die off-screen - or he will be found on Ach To 2 in Star Wars IX.....

Anyway, my version has him die in flashback scenes in Star Wars VIII, not off-screen.

[sarcasm]And he has to die. Or do you think Hollywood is ready for two black main characters at the same time?[/sarcasm]

Is Kylo stated to be the only child of Han and Leia? If not, we can just have Kylo murder that one instead, and Luke fail to protect it because he sooo much believes he can change Kylo, like he did with Vader.

Also, are we the only people missing Lando? Or are there just too many flaws for this one to even be worth mentionin?

[Lord Raziere]

The point is, don't lose your mind over how bad the sequel trilogy is so far...

Dude. *looks back at entire thread.*

Pot. Kettle. BLACK.

[Mightymosy]

[...]The point is, don't lose your mind over how bad the sequel trilogy is so far. You sound unreasonable by saying that TLJ had to be so bad because Abrams made it that way from the start.

Oh, I don't.

In fact, I made a couple suggestions about Luke in particular that would have worked with the premise TFA gave.

Like you, I think TFA had a couple issues that needed solving, but nothing Star Wars VIII couldn't have handled if someone with care and intelligence sat down to do it.

Maybe that's the problem with it, that Rian Johnson got too much power himself? I've heard the OT was done by some teamwork - George Lucas appearantly had a couple crappy ideas that other writers or editors fixed, so that Star Wars could become as good as it was.
Just speculation. I don't know what went on behind the scenes, other than the youtube videos of Rian Johnson, Mark Hamil and nby various critics.

[Dr.Samurai]

Yeah, I don't know much more than what's in that article I linked to earlier. Seems he gave these things some thought (why is Luke exiled on this planet, why is Kylo doing these things, etc.). But, I just think enough of us don't like the ideas he came up with.

[Scowling Dragon]

You sound unreasonable by saying that TLJ had to be so bad because Abrams made it that way from the start.

Yes thats exactly what Im saying. Like I asked in the previous scenario,

On person sets up an impossible expectation and then bails and then somebody else has to make it all make sense. The person who set up the impossible expectation is at least as much to blame as the guy who failed to deliver.

It didn't have to be as bad, but at best it would be a partly baked salvage job. Im trying to state that to ME the most egregious problems happened in TFA. And that after those problems where so egregious Rian Jonson just smashed the shattered vase into more pieces.

Not commendable for sure, but the damage was already done.

[Mightymosy]

Yes thats exactly what Im saying. Like I asked in the previous scenario,

On person sets up an impossible expectation and then bails and then somebody else has to make it all make sense. The person who set up the impossible expectation is at least as much to blame as the guy who failed to deliver.

It didn't have to be as bad, but at best it would be a partly baked salvage job. Im trying to state that to ME the most egregious problems happened in TFA. And that after those problems where so egregious Rian Jonson just smashed the shattered vase into more pieces.

Not commendable for sure, but the damage was already done.

Let's look at the individual pieces, and start with Luke:
TFA establishes:
- Luke was away and the FO could grow
- Luke left a map to Ach To (in two pieces)
- Luke was still on Ach To when Rey found him

I still propose the following suggestion:

When Luke left for Ach To, he knew there was a big Jedi secret, so he would want the coordinates to be kept secret. Thus, the secret map, which Luke handed to Lor San Tekka. The idea was that he would hand it to Leia/Han, so only those would know, and no one, especially not the empire/FO could find Ach To.

Luke intended to come back soon, but eventually was stranded. Say, critical X-Wing failure, and no spare parts on Ach To (a secret, ancient planet with no advanced tech whatsoever).

San Tekka was being tracked by the empire/FO shortly after. To hide the map, he split it and gave one part to R2-D2, and they both parted ways.



I think this could work if one took the time to flesh it out.

The best way to break TFA's setup for Luke is to make his stay involuntarily, I think.
He never intended to stay there for long, and the map was a backup plan to make sure Leia and Han would know where he went. Which happened to fail.

Thoughts? Unreasonable? More unreasonable than what we got?

[Dacia Brabant]

Its well established, doesn't make it logical. Would not make luke any less stupid, cowardly and impotent. The alternative your offering is "Callous" and "Uncaring" which is functionally the same that TLJ ended up doing.

You say good writing but I challenge you to come up with ANY Idea that wouldn't be luke being stupid, callous, cowardly, uncaring or impotent.

Because it requires a bit of each for Luke to Abandon the galaxy. And any of those would require at least a bit of character assasination.

I don't know, was Yoda any of those things? You could say he was callous when he told Luke that if he honored what his friends were fighting for then he should accept the fact they could die either with or without his involvement--but that by getting involved he was playing right into Vader's hands. And he wasn't wrong; Luke lost, and it was only because of the sister he didn't know he had that he even survived. Luke as presented in TLJ could have served a similar narrative purpose, being the voice of caution and try to get Rey to detach herself from her feelings knowing that they would be used against her, but instead they made him a grumpy old codger who just gave up because he freaked out at the fact that teenage boys can have dark thoughts. I know, shocking.

As far as what would I have done better? Well I won't claim to be a good writer, but if it had been up to me I probably would've gone with the secret Jedi training center for those pupils of his who didn't join Kylo Ren, then have him react negatively initially at their being discovered by Rey who may have inadvertently led Snoke and Ren to their hideout and/or represent an unwelcome influence on his students by encouraging them to go fight the bad guys before they're ready. You could argue that would be cowardly, but I could argue it would be cautious. The Force isn't something to mess around with, and even with the special circumstances involved in turning his father from the Dark Side he came darn close to killing him in anger instead, a lesson he quite reasonably would have learned from 30-plus years hence.

Is this idea better than what we got? Does it handle Luke's character better? I don't know, I haven't fleshed it out and I'm not going to, but the bottom line is I disagree with your position that having Luke out of the picture at the beginning was always destined for failure.

Again, not really. She gets upset at the beggining when Finn Grabs her hand but thats not much even If I found that a bit of an over-reaction.

She also flat-out attacked him at their very first meeting because BB8 told her he's wearing a jacket belonging to someone she's never met. Like I said, anger issues.

You really have to grasp at straws to really find a path for her to go down. Even lets say she DOES Join the Darkside, it would be a pretty sudden shift.
From not knowing that the Force is even fully real to "Darkside!" in the span of a 2 days would be really pushing it.

But even the abandonment isn't really addressed in TFA. Like she sticks onto Han Solo, but then doesn't really have much time to "Loose" him.

This is a bigger symptom of the Sequels in that the world building is paper thin. These worlds feel like they exist just this second but not in the past and can't possibly exist in the future.

Who said anything about two days? That was one of the dumbest decisions that was made with TLJ, having the entire action condensed into a couple of days. Besides, I'm not saying she'd have consciously gone "Darkside!" hours after learning what the Force is, more like her actions and motivations reasonably could have led her there.

I'll fully admit to reading things into TFA that probably weren't there--and now I know they weren't put there consciously--so there isn't much else to say on this point, other than this: A lot of folks out there have been waiting a long time for a major female character in a Star Wars movie to throw down with the Force, and at least some of them (myself included) wanted to see said character allowed to have flaws that contribute meaningfully to how her character develops. But I guess that's asking too much from Hollywood.

[Scowling Dragon]

Thoughts? Unreasonable? More unreasonable than what we got?

Applying ointment. BETTER. It was actually an idea I had similarly as well. But just not great still and still very contrived, and requiring everybody to be bumblers and incompitents still.
Im not gonna bother picking apart theoreticals but your not debating for GOOD. But for less terrible and again for what payoff?

What new exciting things where you hoping to see out of this new trilogy? If it was more of the same, then why not just enjoy supplemental materials.
All my hopes where shattered when I saw the poster for Deathstar III. Thats when I gave up and got super bored. Because if its not an advancement, then whats the point? If its just more of the same, then its already slightly worse because the novelty factor is gone, and the universe is less coherent.

I don't know, was Yoda any of those things?

Well. Yes.

Yoda Id say wasn't fully in the right expecting Luke to just kinda take on the empire all by himself with no regular people to trust. The fact that this ultimatly killed the Jedi in the prequels is a element I really liked.

Luke as presented in TLJ could have served a similar narrative purpose, being the voice of caution and try to get Rey to detach herself from her feelings

Then why do you even need Luke then? Why do you wish to see Luke become a loveless detached careless codger (Who doesn't care for family or friends that he had developed)? To me its just not any better. Why have luke be there if he isn't going to be luke?

I haven't fleshed it out and I'm not going to, but the bottom line is I disagree with your position that having Luke out of the picture at the beginning was always destined for failure.

Id say having the series star off with a SOFT REBOOT, Destined it for failure. Heck if it was just a real reboot it would be better. But the sales wouldn't be as good.

To ME it had failed the very second it decided that nostalgia money was the most important aspect. After that I can see this twisted goal warp and direct the entire rest of the movie and in turn the rest of the movies.

She also flat-out attacked him at their very first meeting because BB8 told her he's wearing a jacket belonging to someone she's never met. Like I said, anger issues.

Eh. Not a trait she really shows at any other time during the movie.

Who said anything about two days? That was one of the dumbest decisions that was made with TLJ, having the entire action condensed into a couple of days. Besides, I'm not saying she'd have consciously gone "Darkside!" hours after learning what the Force is, more like her actions and motivations reasonably could have led her there.

Again unless we have a jump of a long period of time IN the Second Movie Rey had discovered Luke at the cliffhanger point. Think of that awkward pacing.

Lia would follow her to him and then we get chastisement and personal drama.

A lot of folks out there have been waiting a long time for a major female character in a Star Wars movie to throw down with the Force, and at least some of them (myself included) wanted to see said character allowed to have flaws that contribute meaningfully to how her character develops. But I guess that's asking too much from Hollywood.

There are also plenty of people that see females as having flaws as sexist, so don't place the blame soley on Hollywood.

[Chen]

Let's look at the individual pieces, and start with Luke:
TFA establishes:
- Luke was away and the FO could grow
- Luke left a map to Ach To (in two pieces)
- Luke was still on Ach To when Rey found him

Just to clarify, Luke didnt leave the map. Its a map to Ahch-to and the first Jedi temple. Han (and others) make the correct assumption thats where Luke went. I mean Kylo says they recover most of the map from the old Imperial Archives, clearly Luke didnt put them there.

[hamishspence]

The fact that R2 has the last bit of the map, does raise questions though.

Did Luke get the complete map from the Imperial Archives, then remove a bit, and put the rest back?

Did he find the map, already missing a bit, make his own copy, then search the galaxy until he found the last bit, then give that last bit to R2?

[Hopeless]

Still haven't watched this movie any idea when they will finally release the novelisation to find out what else they messed up?

How about have Holdo be a New Republic Vice Admiral so we see not only what happened to the New Republic but also why it fell so easily?!

The map to Luke was a ruse intended to reveal how badly Snoke infiltrated the New Republic.

Reveal the Chiss are behind the First Order, by careful manipulation they made the New Republic aliens anti-human by using the human led First Order to first remove the greatest threat Princess Leia and even targeted her family.

Snoke is a former Jedi looking to restore the Order as the new rulers of a reborn Empire far from extraordinarily powerful he has been easily led for the purpose of letting the Chiss come in and save the Galaxy from the awful humans...

Luke went into hiding because he was attacked by New Republic Forces led to believe he was rebuilding the Sith after all why else would he not want New Republic oversight on his new Order?

Damn I can't even believe the number of possibilities ignored to make what I heard about... can someone explain to me how no one explained the difference between a standalone movie and a sequel to Mr Johnson?

[Dr.Samurai]

I remember when I was watching TFA having the distinct impression that Luke left the map behind to be found.

However, afterwards and talking about it with friends, it wasn't clear from our recollection that he left the map behind at all.

Any clarification on that point?

[Aeson]

It could be a case of them having identified the locations of the systems (via astronomy etc) without actually having visited them.

Her statement is "If a system is not in our records, it does not exist".

It sounds to me - and to whoever did the closed captioning for that clip - like her statement is "If an item does not appear in our records, then it does not exist." You could argue that context should restrict "an item" to "a star system," but the fact remains that the statement that she made is much more far-reaching than a mere denial that the Jedi Order's star charts could possibly be incomplete.

[Blackhawk748]

It sounds to me - and to whoever did the closed captioning for that clip - like her statement is "If an item does not appear in our records, then it does not exist." You could argue that context should restrict "an item" to "a star system," but the fact remains that the statement that she made is much more far-reaching than a mere denial that the Jedi Order's star charts could possibly be incomplete.

Oh ya, it was arrogant when she said it, and the Unknown Region makes it even sillier. Though, maybe she meant it more like "If the Republic has the info, we have it, and if we dont, it means the Republic doesnt". Still silly, but makes a bit more sense.

As for Rey, she totally has anger issues in TFA, she goes full cold rage mode on Jylo, and i think the novelization says that she thinks Fin is dead. So she's trying to murdilate the ever loving crap out of Kylo for that. However that pretty much just disappeared in TLJ, which is even weirder as its one of the few character traits she has.

[Mightymosy]

Just to clarify, Luke didnt leave the map. Its a map to Ahch-to and the first Jedi temple. Han (and others) make the correct assumption thats where Luke went. I mean Kylo says they recover most of the map from the old Imperial Archives, clearly Luke didnt put them there.

If that's true, it leaves even more room to solve the mystery box JJ Abrams left behind.

I think both Abrams and Johnson suffer what I will call the Holdo syndrome from now on.
Neither one talked to the other about how they saw the trilogy as a whole, so each one brewed their own respective soups, trying to be as clever as possible.
Difference Abrams revering the original franchise while Johnson just refering to it - to burn everything down.

For example, Death Star III? Could have been brilliant for episode VII to IX, as overarching threat. Utterly fails when introduced AND resolved within the last 15 minutes of Episode VII.

Someone said the best way Episode IX could salvage Episode VIII would be to say "it was all a vision, possibly force-induced". By Rey, or by Luke. Doesn't matter.

Considering Rian Johnson basically pe*d on all setups JJ Abrams left behind, wouldn't it be karmic justice if Abrams did the same and said: "Guess what? None of your stuff matters either."

[Dacia Brabant]

Well. Yes.

Yoda Id say wasn't fully in the right expecting Luke to just kinda take on the empire all by himself with no regular people to trust. The fact that this ultimatly killed the Jedi in the prequels is a element I really liked.

Ah, OK, you really do see things through Luke's perspective, that makes sense. I didn't take it that way at all, at least not since getting older and more cautious myself, but I can see how you would think that.

Then why do you even need Luke then? Why do you wish to see Luke become a loveless detached careless codger (Who doesn't care for family or friends that he had developed)? To me its just not any better. Why have luke be there if he isn't going to be luke?



Id say having the series star off with a SOFT REBOOT, Destined it for failure. Heck if it was just a real reboot it would be better. But the sales wouldn't be as good.

To ME it had failed the very second it decided that nostalgia money was the most important aspect. After that I can see this twisted goal warp and direct the entire rest of the movie and in turn the rest of the movies.

No need to shout.

And we need him there because we need an old master figure, and he's the only one who fits the bill.

Eh. Not a trait she really shows at any other time during the movie.

I would recommend watching it again then, at least the lightsaber battle at the end. In RPG terms she was totally taking Dark Side points in that fight.

Again unless we have a jump of a long period of time IN the Second Movie Rey had discovered Luke at the cliffhanger point. Think of that awkward pacing.

Lia would follow her to him and then we get chastisement and personal drama.

I don't know that the story would necessitate that. Carrie Fisher died a year before the film was released, I personally think her character should have been killed off in this one as well. They could have had her ship get blown up on the way to see Luke.

And time skips would be totally doable. After all there's no indication as to how long Luke was on Degobah, but it wasn't dictated by an external "18 hours" deadline. There was no need for that, it was a dumb plot device and yet another thing about TLJ I hated.

There are also plenty of people that see females as having flaws as sexist, so don't place the blame soley on Hollywood.

Oh I know, and they're idiots. Hollywood and the entertainment media just so happen to be full of them right now.

[Blackhawk748]

Oh I know, and they're idiots. Hollywood and the entertainment media just so happen to be full of them right now for the last several decades.

Fixed that for you.

[Scowling Dragon]

Ah, OK, you really do see things through Luke's perspective, that makes sense. I didn't take it that way at all, at least not since getting older and more cautious myself, but I can see how you would think that.

No need to shout.

I raise my voice like that in real life all the time. I think it comes from this fear of not communicating properly. I like people who disagree with me, but I fear when people treat me contemptously or dismissively.

I do believe in a very humanistic life philosophy. And I try not to reference things I like in the prequels because that gives people reason to dismiss me.

And that made sense to me. When you see humanism (Or human inspired-ism in the case of Star Wars) as a problem of course your going to end up isolating yourself to everybody else. That would end up breeding superiority, ridgid thinking, and such as that. Your free from material concerns but that also frees you from anybody else who has those concerns.

Im a very meticulous watcher of anything. I watch for the moment when the story beats click, when the elements mirror or beat perfectly.
Now let me state this again: The prequels failed at almost everything they did. The acting was horrible, the ideas conveyed imporerly, the action stale, the plot points contrived at time, the staging poor, the effect have not aged well.

But I do actually get Georges Jibber Jabber about rhyming poetry.

And to me the Prequels in it of themselves are saying "The OT was awesome". The prequels are everything the OT wasn't and they say "This is all a bunch of crap". Its one of those statues thats a picture that if you rotate it looks like something else. And the prequels serve to say "Star wars is great".
Its a reverse character arc, and it has plenty of reverse elements in it.
Instead of an Inexperienced Farm boy, we have essentially a chosen one who has fate literally on his side.
Instead of elements of humanism, the Jedi fully embrace their detachment from life.
The Jedi in a sense form the empire that ends up killing them
Its like Pottery-it rhims.

We see how the republic was a greater place to be, and its aesthetics are well explained. Its ships really do look like something made in a better age, even if they aren't as literally big and literally imposing. Something that only a truly afluent society can afford. But it also foreshadows its own decline.

We witness a ton of new locations, with artists working really hard to give them a sense of wonder and grounding. To separate this universe and contrast it with the past/future.

And again let me stress this is all in theory. In practice is this all botched. Except aesthetic design.
-----
Now what do I get from this new trilogy? Just...More of the same. As a serious continuation of the story, taken at face value, taken as chapters in a novel, as numbers coming one after another. It sucks. Its Karate Kid Part 3. Its narrative language is completly botched.
I don't like the Legend of Korra, but I would hate it more if it just had a new fire nation rise up for instance.

And even in theory lets say this was a story about Failure Venture Brothers style. Well it doesn't do that either. There is no sense of organic progression from the OT-> the ST.
Things just happened because they where offscreen and they don't have to do the heavy lifting.
Things failed because they just did. Not for any established or possible to embelished thought.

Like the Venture Brothers is sad, even melencholic even about how all the promises and hopes and dreams end up crashing into waves of simple impracticality. It does more then just say "Past people where bastards".

The self moving roads, or the wacky machinery is all shown how it fails and just doesn't clash well with reality in a satyrical bent, but also with a hint of sadness and regret and at the same time showing that things where never as innocent as things had hoped, but at the same time still being miserable with the dead optimism. Its sad, but Rusty venture ends up being probably the most optimistic guy in the show by the end of it all despite all the horrors. More then anybody else he wants his fathers legacy continuied behind a trashed psychy of fear, guilt, and self doubt. THIS, Rian Jonson, is how you do a subversion.

But right from the beggining of the TFA I sensed a lack of real identity or point to all. What is its commentary on Star Wars? Its that it sure does exist. Remember chewbacka? It speaks to a shallow kind of reverence.

[Dr.Samurai]

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Now what do I get from this new trilogy? Just...More of the same. As a serious continuation of the story, taken at face value, taken as chapters in a novel, as numbers coming one after another. It sucks. Its Karate Kid Part 3. Its narrative language is completly botched.
I don't like the Legend of Korra, but I would hate it more if it just had a new fire nation rise up for instance.

One thing that stuck out to me in that TED video you posted earlier is a part where Abrams says something along the lines of "When people make reboots they copy the wrong things".

Spoiler

Show

[Scowling Dragon]

One thing that stuck out to me in that TED video you posted earlier is a part where Abrams says something along the lines of "When people make reboots they copy the wrong things".

Spoiler

Show

Indeed. Imagine like, if this was made as one movie. Or each trilogy was a movie. The prequels are setup, the OT is Payoff....The ST is Reset.
When you switch from Ying and Yang to Rule of 3s, that means something. I know this is sounding like mystical hoodoo, but I do genuinly it benefis stories when they think about subtextual language.

As a Trilogy of trilogies, the ST in both the logic of the previous films and following the laws of action would have to be declining action.

And it still is. It just tries to hide that fact under bombast. Just serves to show you can't escape the laws of writing even if you "Subvert" them.

[Lethologica]

Dude. *looks back at entire thread.*

Pot. Kettle. BLACK.

Well, yeah, but now that most of the people who enjoyed watching the movie have given up posting in the thread, the slap-fight necessarily turns to how to properly hate the trilogy.

[Dr.Samurai]

I don't think I've been unreasonable, for what it's worth. And I think Lord Raziere's comment is just a snipe at someone that disagrees with an opinion she holds, and is rather vocal about it. I'm not too worried .