The Last Jedi 2: The Next Last Jedi

[Metahuman1]

You're throwing around a lot of opinions that you seem to think are facts.

And your not engaging in good faith so this will be my last reply.

I'm discrediting your credentials because they make no sense in this argument. You may not realize this, but you're not actually space wizards!

See Above.

It's Palps, but the folks he's fighting were 4 jedi masters, so it evens out.

Palpatine has decades and decades of training far and beyond what Rey has, and still looses a 4 on 1 fight and comes dangerously close to dying and oh, yeah, is permanently disfigured and has to be rescued by Anikin.

If Anikin had just sat at the temple like Mace told him too, had not been duped by Palpatine's tales of Darth Plagus the Wise, then he would have been killed. Goes a long way toward supporting my point that Rey really should have lost that particular fight.

You mean like... a talent for space magic? An advantage like that?

If she'd grabbed them all and wrecked them with telekinesis, I'd give her that. Hell, it would fit with the theory being thrown about that she's a prodigy because she doesn't try, she just DOES. That's not what happened.

And it's not like he was fighting 4 jedi masters instead of 4 nameless guards... oh wait...

See above.

[Jayngfet]

Yeah thats kind of the disconnect I see between enraged nerds and other people who watch stuff like this in general: the people enraged don't bother to turn off their analyzer mode while the people who do enjoy the movie, never bothered to analyze it in the first place. I don't see either one as bad or less valid than the other, but really we should make more effort to understand that unanalyzed joy is just as valid as analytical approach to seeing this sort of thing. you can't live your life only analyzing everything.

and I'm just as surprised as you are that Scowling Dragon is capable of enjoying something. he does a really good job of hiding it.

On the contrary, people who DON'T analyze it are less likley to enjoy this movie, even if they're crude at articulating why as a result. Most of the criticisms on the aggregate sites usually boil down to "they RUINED Luke Skywalker and I didn't like this story". Anything deeper is very much in the minority of the majority in that scenario. The people who get paid to overthink movies almost unanimously loved this thing because it's the kind of movie one makes when they overthink this kind of thing. Which I say as a filmmaker who's constantly overthinking things and can see my own problems writ large.

[Mechalich]

Yeah thats kind of the disconnect I see between enraged nerds and other people who watch stuff like this in general: the people enraged don't bother to turn off their analyzer mode while the people who do enjoy the movie, never bothered to analyze it in the first place. I don't see either one as bad or less valid than the other, but really we should make more effort to understand that unanalyzed joy is just as valid as analytical approach to seeing this sort of thing. you can't live your life only analyzing everything.

In the case of TLJ, this seems to have something to do with the critics consensus versus the fan consensus issue. Many critics have been firmly in support of the film even though they are aware of its many flaws. For instance The Nostalgia Critic has a complex review/spoof up now that spends upwards of twenty minutes hitting hard on the absurdity of all the standard points - the pointless Canto Bight sequence, the lack of any backstory for Snoke, Hux being an idiot, the sacrifice/not sacrifice sandskimmer mess, and so forth. And then they say at the end, without mentioning anything positive besides the visuals, that they still liked the movie anyway. And this seems to be the general critical consensus: the flaws are apparent, but the movie is supported anyway.

I think, somehow, this speaks to a critical consensus that has exceedingly low expectations for Star Wars for some reason and/or has decided that generally good, sound storytelling doesn't matter with big blockbuster films anymore. And I can sort of see how, after 17 Marvel movies, 6 DC movies, entirely too many Pirates, Transformers, and X-men films, and so on that the average critic simply doesn't care anymore and celebrates this film being different for the sake of being different - even when the subversive moves don't necessary execute at all or provide a reasonable payoff.

And there's something to this. I suspect I'd have been much more inclined to be generous to TLJ is the hadn't dropped bombs in zero-g in the opening set piece. That choice didn't break my suspension of disbelief, it shattered it, and from then on I was utterly unwilling to be charitable to the film thereafter. Considering we had a whole spin-off thread about how dumb the bombers were I know I'm not the only one.

However, even given that, I still feel this is a bad film. Honestly I feel the Canto Bight sequence: a fourth of the movie devoted to a pointless subplot completely out of sync with the rest of the film thematically and tonally; is enough to sink this film without touching anything else. And there's plenty of else.

[The New Bruceski]

And there's something to this. I suspect I'd have been much more inclined to be generous to TLJ is the hadn't dropped bombs in zero-g in the opening set piece. That choice didn't break my suspension of disbelief, it shattered it, and from then on I was utterly unwilling to be charitable to the film thereafter. Considering we had a whole spin-off thread about how dumb the bombers were I know I'm not the only one.

So your suspension of disbelief allows for artificial gravity on ships as long as it stops exactly at the hull?

[Mightymosy]

What makes me sleep peacefully at night is the believe that movies work more like dramatic retellings of events than factual documentation of events. Storytelling is not just about writing a good plot, but even more about making it an entertaining presentation. Of course it's always best if you can have both, and the solid plots are something Star Wars has always been weak at. But I always get the most out of analyzing movies (which I really do consider a very worthwhile activity) when focusing on the emotional narrative. If the things that are shown on the screen defy physics or the lines of the dialog are inconsistent, those are secondary concerns to me. It's always sad when it happens and filmmakers should hold themselves to a higher standard and avoid such sloppiness, but when the emotional journey of the characters comes across as believable, that's the most important thing to me.
And in that regard, Last Jedi delivered more for me than any Star Wars movie since Return of the Jedi.

Interesting.

I am of a similar kind. I care for emotional sense first and technical details second.

And for me, The Last Jedi was the least satisfying of all the Star Wars movies, by a pretty wide margin.

When I left the movie, I texted my family "Oh, well, seems I'm getting to old for this silly puppet theater"

First this was because of the huge emotional/thematic disconnects.
Later when I thought about why I didn't like it, then I discovered that behind most of the emotional/thematic disconnects were logical plotholes, huge discrepancies to stuff the previous movies established, and for me, most importantly, the nonsense-way they handled Luke.

Then I thought I might be overthinking things and looked for reviews on the internet. The happiest moment regarding this movie was when I discovered Mark Hamill also completely disagreed with his role. At least I am not alone.

My emotional journey through Star Wars VIII
Do you know that feeling when you watch a movie and really like it, and then there's one scene which is just cringeworthy, and you try to skip over it, and then shortly afterwards another, and yet another, and ever so slowly your enjoyment fades and is eventually replaced with disillusionment and in the end disappointment? And later at home you enter anger and rage?
This is what The Last Jedi was for me.
The first big thing was the Casino Sidequest, which broke the (already not so believable) chase scene immersion for me, and then Luke's character broke my emotional enjoyment alltogether. Before Luke's attempted murder was flashbacked, I held up hope that the movie would rectify itself, that it would take a turn for the better.
Know that feeling when you just hope the movie will go just a little longer, will take another turn, will give a couple more good scenes?
And then, about when they landed on Hoth 2, I just wished for the movie to end. Wished to end. I would never have thought I would ever wish for less Star Wars screen time, but I did.
Then the astral projection thing. Know what I thought at that time?
Wow, that's a clever trick. Doesn't save the rest of the movie, but at least Luke is now back in action and the third movie (which I knew would be directed by someone else, although I didn't know it would be Abrams again) might do things better with Luke.
And then he died regardless.
What?
What was the f*cking point of that?

And then for the last scene we get this broomstick child, who holds up "the new spark of hope for the galaxy" with his rebell ring or whatever.
I wondered why I should bother?
Why should I be interested in any new rebellion story?
We have had a 3-movie struggle for the fate of the galaxy in which the empire was defeated and peace was to be restored to the galaxy.
All that was swept away without any explanation on screen and the former heroes robbed of their achievments AND their stories.

Why should I now start to care about the new heroes, let alone about some random child?

I thought the movie wanted to convey a message like
"What matters is that hope is kept alive"

But for me, in the context with the previous movies, that's useless. Star Wars IV was called "A New Hope", and everything that title promised is now burned to ashes.
Is Star Wars IX to be titled "A newer hope"?

Na, don't bother. Tell that story to someone else, Disney. I need stories that build upon previous installments and go somewhere.

Anyway, that was the emotional journey through The Last Jedi for me.


But I am curious: What about the movies satisfied you so much, emotionally?
I think the movie had good parts. I actually kinda enjoyed the first half or maybe a third or whatever, before it gradually declined for me.

On the contrary, people who DON'T analyze it are less likley to enjoy this movie, even if they're crude at articulating why as a result. Most of the criticisms on the aggregate sites usually boil down to "they RUINED Luke Skywalker and I didn't like this story". Anything deeper is very much in the minority of the majority in that scenario. The people who get paid to overthink movies almost unanimously loved this thing because it's the kind of movie one makes when they overthink this kind of thing. Which I say as a filmmaker who's constantly overthinking things and can see my own problems writ large.

My limited data says otherwise. The three people I went into The Last Jedi with seemed to like it or at least be content, and they didn't think about stuff all that much. For them it was just a good or an ok movie, and that's that. Same with my family, basically. I'd think that I think a lot more about movies (to my disadvantage, it seems) and I did not like this one.
I don't know about "professional" movie critics, but maybe these are just valueing other things than average movie goers.

Maybe the put a lot more value into technical details like how well the actors and actresses expressed emotions, how good the special effects were done, how well filmed and cut the scenes were, how good the sound effects were, that kind of stuff.

I don't read a lot of movie critics usually, so I don't know. But when I do, I rarely notice them caring about continuity.
They most often seem to evaluate each movie in itself.
Ok, they may introduce their article with stuff like "So this movie tells us the past of Star Wars and how Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader", but mostly that's that.

I suspect this may be because they watch just too many movies as if they could pay attention to continuity in ongoing series.

Unfortunately, continuity is one of the biggest parts for me.
If I watch something with a number in its title, I expect it to be a logical sequel or prequel to the number before or after that.
Discrepancies between movies in an ongoing series bug the crap out of me. Not small ones like how fast a certain ship could fly or anything like, but if a hero changes from most optimistic guy in the world to cycnic bastardo, I want to hear and watch how that happened, not just vomited in my face as a surprise.
For a movie critic, it's maybe "wonderfully refreshing!"

I[...]

And there's something to this. I suspect I'd have been much more inclined to be generous to TLJ is the hadn't dropped bombs in zero-g in the opening set piece. That choice didn't break my suspension of disbelief, it shattered it, and from then on I was utterly unwilling to be charitable to the film thereafter. Considering we had a whole spin-off thread about how dumb the bombers were I know I'm not the only one.

However, even given that, I still feel this is a bad film. Honestly I feel the Canto Bight sequence: a fourth of the movie devoted to a pointless subplot completely out of sync with the rest of the film thematically and tonally; is enough to sink this film without touching anything else. And there's plenty of else.

I got a little farther than the bombers

I usually don't notice tech details like that so fast, and unless they are really blatantly stupid, they don't usually hinder my enjoyment of a movie.

I remember that the slow speed of the bombers made me uncomfortable in my seat. You know, like an obnoxious little feeling that something with this movie is off balance?
But it was overshadowed and I quickly forgot it (for a time) when Rose's sister died, because that was such an emotionally powerful scene.

For me, the first big break was the Casino scene, as I said above.
Not because it was technically stupid.

It was tonally, thematically dissonant.
A chase scene is not a chase scene if some people can run away from it and do something else on a casino planet, then return later.

You'd need a pretty good explanation if you want to deviate that grossly from how a chase scene is done.

And then, buggered by the tonal inconsistency, my brain just couldn't help it and started analysing things logically.
And, as we all know, lots of things started falling apart.

[Reddish Mage]

Yeah thats kind of the disconnect I see between enraged nerds and other people who watch stuff like this in general: the people enraged don't bother to turn off their analyzer mode while the people who do enjoy the movie, never bothered to analyze it in the first place. I don't see either one as bad or less valid than the other, but really we should make more effort to understand that unanalyzed joy is just as valid as analytical approach to seeing this sort of thing. you can't live your life only analyzing everything.

and I'm just as surprised as you are that Scowling Dragon is capable of enjoying something. he does a really good job of hiding it.

I have said too much! But its true! I DO enjoy things!

I enjoy stuff and post stuff I like every once in a while but nobody cares.

People only care if you adore the same things they like. And without constructive criticism. And it has to be modern and trendy.

Otherwise nobody cares or notices.

I talked a whole deal about how I like the story, and design in the Prequel Trilogy on this tgread quite allot for instance.

So basically you're a contrarian.

Also is this forum really the one for people that are into just what's popular?

The people who get paid to overthink movies almost unanimously loved this thing because it's the kind of movie one makes when they overthink this kind of thing. Which I say as a filmmaker who's constantly overthinking things and can see my own problems writ large.

I'm not sure why critics would love something that provides no coherency, but I have the germ of a theory based on below.

In the case of TLJ, this seems to have something to do with the critics consensus versus the fan consensus issue. Many critics have been firmly in support of the film even though they are aware of its many flaws. For instance The Nostalgia Critic has a complex review/spoof up now that spends upwards of twenty minutes hitting hard on the absurdity of all the standard points - the pointless Canto Bight sequence, the lack of any backstory for Snoke, Hux being an idiot, the sacrifice/not sacrifice sandskimmer mess, and so forth. And then they say at the end, without mentioning anything positive besides the visuals, that they still liked the movie anyway. And this seems to be the general critical consensus: the flaws are apparent, but the movie is supported anyway.

I think, somehow, this speaks to a critical consensus that has exceedingly low expectations for Star Wars for some reason and/or has decided that generally good, sound storytelling doesn't matter with big blockbuster films anymore. And I can sort of see how, after 17 Marvel movies, 6 DC movies, entirely too many Pirates, Transformers, and X-men films, and so on that the average critic simply doesn't care anymore and celebrates this film being different for the sake of being different - even when the subversive moves don't necessary execute at all or provide a reasonable payoff.

So critics who watch movies day-in day-out professionally really don't care about coherence, logic, or other high-minded concepts in a blockbuster film? Yes, I can see how they've been trained to ignore that sort of thing and not dock points for their review.

Of course this is the angle that they just aren't that impressed with Star Wars or any blockbuster artistically and so couldn't care less about the universe-building aspects.

On the other hand, given that critics necessarily see countless movies recycle the same tropes in the same way year after year, I can see the genuine delight to see subversions like they haven't seen before.

When you put the two together, Rian Johnson subtly throwing out every expectation of a Star Wars movie would get great applause from the professional crowd, while the way it rewrites the rules of the narrative and what the heroes and villains would be systematically ignored. Its like its made to please the critics and piss off the hard-core fans. It destroys Star Wars, but it destroys it in ways that doesn't register a blip to a critic.

[Scowling Dragon]

So basically you're a contrarian.

Also is this forum really the one for people that are into just what's popular?

Considering how dismissive people here are of different opinions: yeah it pretty much is.

Only contrarians and communist witches have different opnions and likes apperantly.

[Lethologica]

I appreciate this criticism of the new trilogy from someone who is generally positive about it (basically, that the new trilogy is consumed with commenting on the previous trilogies at the expense of telling its own story). I would apply the criticism a little more broadly than he does, but the basic point makes sense.

[Psyren]

And your not engaging in good faith so this will be my last reply.

Because I don't state my opinions as facts like you do? Okay, sure.

Palpatine has decades and decades of training far and beyond what Rey has, and still looses a 4 on 1 fight and comes dangerously close to dying and oh, yeah, is permanently disfigured and has to be rescued by Anikin.

He was up against 4 jedi masters, and she against 4 nameless mook guards. So yeah, the dearth in training between the scenarios applies to both sides of the equation. x = x; x-10 = x-10.

The movie does not portray Rey as a prodigy.

That's exactly what it's doing. This person is young and talented even with little training. What else do you want them to do, give her a t-shirt?

Particularly now, when they've scuppered the "secret Skywalker" explanation for her prowess.

Sure, and I see the opposite all the time as well. When people don't like something, they nit-pick every little thing, won't accept any explanation, and make mountains out of molehills. Even to the point of actually forgetting/ignoring parts of the thing that actually exist in order to 'justify' their dislike.

Indeed, I see this too - and far more often honestly. People make and post in threads in order to whinge, far more frequently than they do in order to praise or support.

[Forum Explorer]

In the case of TLJ, this seems to have something to do with the critics consensus versus the fan consensus issue. Many critics have been firmly in support of the film even though they are aware of its many flaws. For instance The Nostalgia Critic has a complex review/spoof up now that spends upwards of twenty minutes hitting hard on the absurdity of all the standard points - the pointless Canto Bight sequence, the lack of any backstory for Snoke, Hux being an idiot, the sacrifice/not sacrifice sandskimmer mess, and so forth. And then they say at the end, without mentioning anything positive besides the visuals, that they still liked the movie anyway. And this seems to be the general critical consensus: the flaws are apparent, but the movie is supported anyway.

I think, somehow, this speaks to a critical consensus that has exceedingly low expectations for Star Wars for some reason and/or has decided that generally good, sound storytelling doesn't matter with big blockbuster films anymore. And I can sort of see how, after 17 Marvel movies, 6 DC movies, entirely too many Pirates, Transformers, and X-men films, and so on that the average critic simply doesn't care anymore and celebrates this film being different for the sake of being different - even when the subversive moves don't necessary execute at all or provide a reasonable payoff.

And there's something to this. I suspect I'd have been much more inclined to be generous to TLJ is the hadn't dropped bombs in zero-g in the opening set piece. That choice didn't break my suspension of disbelief, it shattered it, and from then on I was utterly unwilling to be charitable to the film thereafter. Considering we had a whole spin-off thread about how dumb the bombers were I know I'm not the only one.

However, even given that, I still feel this is a bad film. Honestly I feel the Canto Bight sequence: a fourth of the movie devoted to a pointless subplot completely out of sync with the rest of the film thematically and tonally; is enough to sink this film without touching anything else. And there's plenty of else.

Maybe they rewatched the other Star Wars movies recently.

No seriously, they aren't much better. The Prequels especially but even in the originals as well. Unnecessarily flashy sequences, lack of backstory for important characters, incompetence on staggering levels, and so on and so forth. It's always been there, you're just noticing it now.

Is the Last Jedi the worst contender for it? I don't think so, but that point could be argued.

[Dr.Samurai]

Yeah thats kind of the disconnect I see between enraged nerds and other people who watch stuff like this in general: the people enraged don't bother to turn off their analyzer mode while the people who do enjoy the movie, never bothered to analyze it in the first place. I don't see either one as bad or less valid than the other, but really we should make more effort to understand that unanalyzed joy is just as valid as analytical approach to seeing this sort of thing. you can't live your life only analyzing everything.

Yeah, validity never enters the equation for me I don't think. I think the types of people you refer to do exist with those differences, though I wouldn't characterize them as "enraged nerds" and "other people".

But I mentioned this in the other thread; for some people events happen in the movie and they go along with it and don't really notice anything amiss. For others, certain elements jump out at them and pull them from their immersion more easily.

It's just a state of being. I can't really prevent myself from noticing things that I notice. Likewise, if I bring it up to someone that doesn't typically notice these things, chances are it won't bother them too much once they've been made aware, or they already had noticed them and weren't bothered.

Anyways, I think TLJ has plenty of general problems as a movie that condemn it. This is before you get into criticisms reserved for the "rabid fanboy" or "enraged nerd" label like characterizations and consistency to previous trilogies and lore.

On the contrary, people who DON'T analyze it are less likley to enjoy this movie, even if they're crude at articulating why as a result.

I would be cautious to make a claim like this one way or the other. I wouldn't say that less analysis often leads to less enjoyment, or the opposite, or the converse, etc.

Often times many people articulate their enjoyment of a movie with phrases like "popcorn flick" and "turn your brain off", indicating that you shouldn't think too much about it and simply have fun watching it. I often find myself musing that I could do something like that more often. It's not like I want to not like most of the X-men movies, or 75% of the Marvel movies, or any of the DC movies. I'd rather go to the movie and think everything was amazing.

That said, despite my tendency to "notice" stuff in movies, there are movies that I really enjoy. There's got to be a decent mix. No movie is perfect, but if the logic or consistency is poor, and the characters are not interesting or routinely stupid, and the plot is not exciting or compelling, well... it's tough to like.

Re: Critics

Well, they're not reliable lol. Between this and Bright, it's clear that they're not judging movies by the same metric the general audience is. Find a reviewer that appreciates the same stuff in movies you do and check them out and see if they jive with your preferences. Then you can have a reasonable expectation to trust their reviews.

But these critics that like TLJ, well, I suspect you can feed them a burning diaper for breakfast and they'll love starting their day with something "different and unexpected".

My emotional journey through Star Wars VIII
Do you know that feeling when you watch a movie and really like it, and then there's one scene which is just cringeworthy, and you try to skip over it, and then shortly afterwards another, and yet another, and ever so slowly your enjoyment fades and is eventually replaced with disillusionment and in the end disappointment? And later at home you enter anger and rage?
This is what The Last Jedi was for me.
The first big thing was the Casino Sidequest, which broke the (already not so believable) chase scene immersion for me, and then Luke's character broke my emotional enjoyment alltogether. Before Luke's attempted murder was flashbacked, I held up hope that the movie would rectify itself, that it would take a turn for the better.
Know that feeling when you just hope the movie will go just a little longer, will take another turn, will give a couple more good scenes?
And then, about when they landed on Hoth 2, I just wished for the movie to end. Wished to end. I would never have thought I would ever wish for less Star Wars screen time, but I did.
Then the astral projection thing. Know what I thought at that time?
Wow, that's a clever trick. Doesn't save the rest of the movie, but at least Luke is now back in action and the third movie (which I knew would be directed by someone else, although I didn't know it would be Abrams again) might do things better with Luke.
And then he died regardless.
What?
What was the f*cking point of that?

Spoiler: Super long...

Show

I went through some similar thoughts as well. But mostly, I was pulled out of the movie every time it felt like the characters were sending a message to fans (oh god, the dreaded fans!!) of the franchise. And that started immediately. When Luke throws the lightsaber I was like... ok. That was a strange reaction to the lightsaber, was it supposed to be funny? no one laughed, I hope it won't be like this going forward.

Then he makes the comment about "you expect to go out there and save the day with a laser sword" and I felt unmoored. I was like whoa, what am I watching? Why is Luke Skywalker calling a lightsaber a laser sword?? Why is he implying that it's unreasonable to expect a Jedi to defend the Republic? Well, because we're being told that nothing is sacred and forget about what you know Star Wars to be. **** your expectations.

Ok. That made me wary but I trudged on. Then we see Poe get dressed down, but immediately released to go blow **** up, so I honestly thought the demotion was a minor blip that wasn't really going to go anywhere, because it immediately didn't go anywhere.

Then we get the scene with Leia. Again, Kylo's going to kill her, but he doesn't, she's alive. TIE fighters blow up the bridge, everyone, including Akbar, dies. Except Leia's not dead, she uses the Force to get to the ship, so she's alive. Except she collapses into a coma, so she's out of commission. This kind of stuff is exhausting to me (that seems hyperbolic but not sure how else to explain it). It's a lot of back and forth and simply to get Leia out of the movie temporarily.

Now we get the plot. The Raddus is running out of gas and the Supremacy can track it through Hyperspace. So it can't escape. However, it somehow moves faster than the Supremacy, and the Supremacy can only follow it ineffectually. This immediately takes me out of the movie. There are simply too many pieces for this plot to work. One, the Raddus has to be running out of fuel. Two, the Supremacy must be able to track it through Hyperspace. Three, the Raddus must also be faster than the Supremacy in general. Four, the Supremacy's cannons must be ineffectual at the distance they're at to the Raddus, and Hux must order his TIE fighters back. This immediately feels contrived and has me skeptical that there is nothing between these two fleets that can be done to change this situation before the 18 hours are up.

Kylo and Rey are communicating. I thought that was interesting and was wondering where it would go. Kylo asks "Did he tell you what happened that night?" and I was legit curious what that revelation might be. Luke is still being a **** about training Rey, but then sees the holo from R2. That might be my favorite scene in the movie because it's one of the few scenes that fits and makes sense. Of course that holo would move Luke. I was excited to think he was finally lifted out of his bull**** drama. But then right after he decides to train her, he gets scared of her power and stops training her. This wiffle-waffle theme in the movie is beginning to annoy me.

Holdo is keeping Poe in the dark, so I find out that the demotion actually is a thing. It seems the movie wants me to take Holdo's side, but she should be ensuring everyone that they aren't going to die and there is a plan, so it seems like a mistake that she's keeping everyone in the dark, so maybe we're supposed to sympathize with Poe? Not enough information yet.

Finn and Rey go on a mission. This immediately takes me out of the plot for a second. People can come and go from the ship?? The whole point is that there is no escape from the First Order and they are dead in 18 hours. Now I'm wondering if anyone else can get off or if there are better ways to utilize this escape rather than find this codebreaker. Also, the jargon about how the ships are tracking is jibberish and convenient. As contrived as the basic plot to begin with.

Luke reveals that he ignited his lightsaber over Ben in response to visions in the Force, and Ben saw and defended himself. This comes out of nowhere for me and immediately pulls me out of the movie. It's annoying as I sit there that Disney can't make interesting characters or compelling plots, and they have the audacity to butcher Han and Luke and Leia as they fumble through their own new trilogy. But it's beginning to clear up; this is what we're supposed to like - punishing heroism, washed up and failed heroes, inconsistent plots. Basically, nothing matters. Just throw your hands in the air.

Finn and Rose's plan goes south because they parked on a beach. I groan. This is just stupid to me. The movie is once again laughing at the audience "haha, your daring heroism in your epic space opera has been foiled by a mundane parking infraction". Also, there's a scene where some irons are supposed to look like some machine and then are revealed to be irons, but they looked like irons the entire time and it's stupid and makes me groan some more. We get introduced to del Toro's character. This is all not making sense and I'm losing interest very quickly. They can't get the guy they went there for, because they've been arrested for parking, so they settle on some random thief in their cell. Again, nothing matters in this movie. Just grab some other guy for this high priority, life and death mission that you're on. So they do. There's some messaging about war profiteering and animal cruelty that no one watching cares about, and then Rose releases some animals while leaving the slave children in their chains. I can't believe what I just watched and am convinced at this point that I can go to the bathroom real quick and won't regret that I've missed anything.

Rey hands herself over to the First Order. If she can head over with the Falcon, maybe she could ferry people off the Raddus?? So much for her commitment to the Resistance amiright guys?? This is supposed to be like Luke in RotJ, but I don't know why Rey is suddenly so vested in Kylo's fate that she would risk her own life for him. The movie doesn't really explain it either. I guess it's the typical good girl trying to save/change the bad guy. Girl power lol. We're introduced to Snoke. He's obnoxious. He's hurting Rey with the Force, I don't care because I know she's not going to die here. Kylo is poised to kill her, but I know he won't kill her. In fact, I know he'll kill Snoke because Snoke is telegraphing it like crazy. So much so that I expect him to foil the attempt. But no, he dies. Seems pretty easy, like something Kylo could have done any time he was walking alongside Snoke through the Supremacy, or behind him, or whatever; just bzzt, turn your lightsaber on into the old man. Then we get a fight with no stakes between two uninteresting characters and a bunch of faceless guards. A lightsaber detonates, because why not, and fade to black.

Meanwhile, Poe pulls of a mutiny. So now I'm thinking the point of his demotion was simply to set him into conflict with Holdo, to create this interesting situation back on the Raddus so something interesting could actually happen in the movie. So I'm thinking Poe is going to save the day. But surprise surprise, Finn and Rose are betrayed and Poe's mission fails and Leia once again visits violence against him. Thing is, this really surprised me when it happened. I thought "wait... so Poe is wrong? But, Holdo didn't tell them all they were saved, what was he supposed to do? what was anyone supposed to do? Accept their fate peacefully and just die?" It brought me back to the dreadnought and had me confused. Poe is a heroic man of action, but this movie is saying that's bad and doesn't work. I mean, at this point in the movie I'm just giving up because so far nothing it's doing or saying resonates with me.

Everyone on the transports are dying so Holdo sacrifices herself. The scene looks and "sounds" incredible. But if it could be done now, it could have been done 18 hours ago. The plot already felt contrived, but knowing that the Resistance could have done something sooner to fight back/escape is pretty glaring. There could have been a much more interesting plot with the same mutiny, in a fight between Holdo and Poe to either escape on stealth transports and lead the First Order away, or evacuate the Raddus and ram the Supremacy, taking out the First Order leadership. But instead we get this convoluted mess. Sometimes heroism and sacrifice is good, but only when the movie tells you it's good. Sometimes the First Order scans for cloaked ships, but only when a random stranger suggests for them to.

We get to Crait. The base only has one door because, why would it have two?? Leia puts Poe in command because why would that be inconsistent with his arc so far?? Finn sacrifices himself to save the Resistance, but Rose stops him. I roll my eyes. Again, the movie will tell you when sacrifice and heroism is good. It's not when Finn does it. It's not when Poe does it. Finn and Rose exchange some words while the First Order watches on with patience and understanding. Then they are allowed to return to the base unmolested, because this movie just doesn't give a flying **** lol.

Luke shows up and goes outside. He survives a **** ton of laser shots. I'm excited now because Luke has finally left his hideout and is acting like an adult and taking responsibility for his "mistake". Kylo goes to kill him but ha! It's a force projection, Luke isn't even there. I'm excited because Luke seems OP and is now in the fight against the First Order. I guess it will take three movies but we'll see Luke fighting again with the powers of a grandmaster. Oh wait, he's dead. I shake my head again. Completely pointless. Nothing matters in this movie. I'm impressed with their dedication to that principle.

Rey lifts a bunch of rocks to help everyone escape. They all look surprised, including herself. I'm pulled out of the movie again because their reactions confuse me, and then I realize that, even though the audience knows that Rey can do anything, the people in the movie don't. Duh, lol.

The end. I leave the theater completely uninterested in the next movie, and wondering why Disney felt the best way to lay the old Star Wars to rest was to brutally mangle it and send a message to the fans that nothing matters and they don't give a ****.

I appreciate this criticism of the new trilogy from someone who is generally positive about it (basically, that the new trilogy is consumed with commenting on the previous trilogies at the expense of telling its own story). I would apply the criticism a little more broadly than he does, but the basic point makes sense.

Good read. He likes it more than I do, but his points are solid and I agree with them.

That's exactly what it's doing. This person is young and talented even with little training. What else do you want them to do, give her a t-shirt?

A prodigy doesn't look confused and bewildered every time they master a new piece on the piano. Rey has no idea what she's doing. She's just learning at the speed of plot. Rey as a prodigy would behave very differently.

[137beth]

My impression reading these threads is that at least half the complaints about the movie are summed up by this comic from more than three years ago.

[Psyren]

A prodigy doesn't look confused and bewildered every time they master a new piece on the piano. Rey has no idea what she's doing. She's just learning at the speed of plot. Rey as a prodigy would behave very differently.

Even if I agreed with this, "bewildered" when? When she turned the tables on Kylo? When she then used it on the stormtrooper? During the lightsaber battle when she communed with the Force before defeating him? What precisely are you referring to when you say that?

[Malifice]

I don't need a course curriculum. Rey never gets trained. You and Psyren are grasping. You're arguing that, because we aren't Jedi, then a couple of moments with Luke qualify as training and we can't argue otherwise. Talk about ****ty apologetics.

I'm not going to concede that we're on equal footing here. The movies suggest that Jedi have to be trained. If Luke went to fight Darth Vader in A New Hope, he would have lost. In fact, he goes to fight him in Empire Strikes Back after some training and he still loses because his training isn't complete.

You want to pretend anything we see on screen can qualify as training, go for it. But your position isn't supported except by Psyren.

Has it ever occurred to any of you blokes that the rules to the game have changed? That the force has... awakened?

Luke skywalker who has personally encountered Force users as powerful as the Emperor, Yoda and Darth Vader (The chosen one) expressly said he had never seen the level of power Kylo and Rey possessed. A 15-year-old boy and an untrained orphan girl are far more powerful than Yoda, Vader or the Emperor (and Luke himself).

In addition in this movie we also see a kid who has had zero training in the force use it to pick up a broom. It took Luke skywalker several years before he could accomplish such a feat (picking up his light sabre in the cave on Hoth) and even then only with a lot of effort. Even Anakin skywalker at that age didn't demonstrate the ability to move things with the force.

The movies have gone to quite some length to show that the rules have changed. There has been an 'awakening' of the force. Snoke tells as much to Kylo in the first movie.

You are all citing the rules as they existed in the earlier movies. And that's despite Luke skywalker expressly telling the audience that those rules no longer apply (At least insofar as they might apply to Kylo and Rey). It also appears that those rules no longer apply to everyone else from the looks of what that child was able to do with the broom.

[Malifice]

It's not that the directors have stuffed up by giving Rey all of these powers without training.

The directors are trying to show that the rules of the game have changed.

The force has 'awakened'. What ever level it was at before, it is now much more powerful. People are being born able to use it much easier, and with vastly more power then they would have been able to before (the chosen one restored balance to the force).

And based off the final scene of the last Jedi, these 'Super force sensitive' people are increasing in frequency.

It's quite clear this is the direction theyre headed. By bringing balance to the force, Anakin skywalker did something to it. Now average Joe's are being born with the ability to use the Force beyond the level of even Yoda or the Emperor at the height of their powers.

[LaZodiac]

I appreciate this criticism of the new trilogy from someone who is generally positive about it (basically, that the new trilogy is consumed with commenting on the previous trilogies at the expense of telling its own story). I would apply the criticism a little more broadly than he does, but the basic point makes sense.

Pointing this out specifically because while his points are good and well delivered, um...that hypothetical at the start? That sounds really exciting actually, that sounds fun. Is it better than the base Fury Road? No, but nothing will ever be. That's not a fair comparision. They're both good, and I don't see why we should diminish one because it's not like the other.

[Lethologica]

It's not that the directors have stuffed up by giving Rey all of these powers without training.

The directors are trying to show that the rules of the game have changed.

The force has 'awakened'. What ever level it was at before, it is now much more powerful. People are being born able to use it much easier, and with vastly more power then they would have been able to before (the chosen one restored balance to the force).

And based off the final scene of the last Jedi, these 'Super force sensitive' people are increasing in frequency.

It's quite clear this is the direction theyre headed. By bringing balance to the force, Anakin skywalker did something to it. Now average Joe's are being born with the ability to use the Force beyond the level of even Yoda or the Emperor at the height of their powers.

This would be a useful and interesting plot element if it were developed further. However, with all the other stuff the movies have had to cram in, there hasn't been time for that. For example, we do get Luke sorta indicating that something new is happening with the Force, but instead of building off that into, say, some investigation/explanation of why this new thing is happening or what it means, we go straight back to the "Rey tries to persuade fallen Luke to help the Resistance" plot. In this way the Force awakening doesn't actually drive the story besides explaining why Rey and Kylo are sooooo awesome until the very end of the second movie. In that role, it kinda comes off as just an excuse for power creep.

E:

Pointing this out specifically because while his points are good and well delivered, um...that hypothetical at the start? That sounds really exciting actually, that sounds fun. Is it better than the base Fury Road? No, but nothing will ever be. That's not a fair comparision. They're both good, and I don't see why we should diminish one because it's not like the other.

The rest of his answer illustrates why he finds that idea less exciting than you would and doesn't think it would be a good idea: he thinks it would fall into the same pitfalls TLJ did and be a worse movie as a result. It's not that different is bad - the issue is much more specific.

(That said, if such a Mad Max movie existed and avoided those pitfalls, I would probably like it.)

[Metahuman1]

He was up against 4 jedi masters, and she against 4 nameless mook guards. So yeah, the dearth in training between the scenarios applies to both sides of the equation. x = x; x-10 = x-10.

He was up against 4 Jedi Masters. She was up against 4, minimum (I didn't take an exact count so it could have been up to 6) elite body guards whom were part of an elite combat unit who's entire reason to exist was to be very good at killing anything that posed a threat to The Supreme Leader. And were likely made with an eye toward making sure if Ren ever thought about just stalking up there and killing Snoke in a fit or rage, he'd be overwhelmed. How do I know this? I have eyes and it was bleeding obvious.

More importantly, however,

your equation countermands your entire point up till this post. Your insistence that she was not untrained, there for her competency was fine and made sense.

You've just asserted the opposite, that she was not in fact trained, and that the guards were minimally trained nameless mooks of no consequence.

Thank you for proving yourself wrong.



I was going to let the last one be the last one to you, but I do feel I needed to point that out as completely contradicting your entire premise and point is note worthy.

[Malifice]

He was up against 4 Jedi Masters. She was up against 4, minimum (I didn't take an exact count so it could have been up to 6) elite body guards whom were part of an elite combat unit who's entire reason to exist was to be very good at killing anything that posed a threat to The Supreme Leader.

She is also more powerful in the Force then the Emperor was. And more powerful than Yoda. And more powerful then Luke and Anakin Skywalker.

Not sure if you recall but we also see her defeat a Jedi Master (Luke) in combat within a few seconds in this movie, sitting him on his arse. A feat that Kylo had previously managed himself as well as a 15-year-old boy, while still in bed (before subsequently destroying Luke skywalker's entire Jedi Academy).

Kylo and Rey are 'super mega powerful Force sensitives', on a totally different scale to anything we've seen before in any of the other movies. In addition to these movies showing us this repeatedly, Luke Skywalker expressly tells us as much.

Her 'space magic' is so powerful she can move boulders, do mind tricks, outfight a Jedi Master, resist a mind probe from someone as powerful as she is and other Jedi feats with in a matter of a few days after being told she was force sensitive.

If she was some pleb waving a sword around then yeah fine (like Finn was in the last movie when he had his backside handed to him when he used the light sabre). But she's not just some nobody with a light sabre. She's a force user more powerful then Yoda or the Emperor or Vader or Luke Skywalker with a light sabre.

[Mechalich]

She is also more powerful in the Force then the Emperor was. And more powerful than Yoda. And more powerful then Luke and Anakin Skywalker.

Not sure if you recall but we also see her defeat a Jedi Master (Luke) in combat within a few seconds in this movie, sitting him on his arse. A feat that Kylo had previously managed himself as well as a 15-year-old boy, while still in bed (before subsequently destroying Luke skywalker's entire Jedi Academy).

Kylo and Rey are 'super mega powerful Force sensitives', on a totally different scale to anything we've seen before in any of the other movies. In addition to these movies showing us this repeatedly, Luke Skywalker expressly tells us as much.

Her 'space magic' is so powerful she can move boulders, do mind tricks, outfight a Jedi Master, resist a mind probe from someone as powerful as she is and other Jedi feats with in a matter of a few days after being told she was force sensitive.

If she was some pleb waving a sword around then yeah fine (like Finn was in the last movie when he had his backside handed to him when he used the light sabre). But she's not just some nobody with a light sabre. She's a force user more powerful then Yoda or the Emperor or Vader or Luke Skywalker with a light sabre.

If you're correct, then your statement is a blistering indictment of TLJ and of the ST as a whole.

'And the new generation is much stronger than the old because reasons!' is the worst kind of terrible make-it-bigger garbage storytelling as a whole. You're responding with 'this is awful because X' with ;no, it's actually awful because Y.'

[Metahuman1]

Luke had disconnected himself from the Force for an extended period at that time. It would follow that any novice force sensitive at that point would be on an even footing regarding the space magic, meaning the battle would boil down to man in his 80's living an only semi active life style, or exceedingly active woman in her early 20's, who's in better physical shape. (Also her being the one who got the Lightsaber out first when she started loosing would tend to lend her a rather unfair advantage at that point. It's sort of like being in a fist fight and then you get your hands on the only gun in the building. Your very likely to win and easily after that little escalation.).

Luke was trying to deescalate the situation with the 15 year old Ren. (An aside, the fact that Luke got as far as turning the lightsaber on in that circumstance was idiotic and basically threw all his growth over the first 3 movies out the window and asked us to like it. I take issue with that.)






As for the rest, if your right, 1: It means skill no longer matters at all in any capacity in this universe, raw power is the only factor, and 2: It means not only is she a blatant Mary Sue, but that Star Wars as a franchise as ceased to be a space opera and become a very, very, VERY badly written Shonen Fighting Anime. So you'll forgive me if I'm inclined to hope against hope that your wrong.





Edit: Swordsaged.

[Lethologica]

She is also more powerful in the Force then the Emperor was. And more powerful than Yoda. And more powerful then Luke and Anakin Skywalker.

Not sure if you recall but we also see her defeat a Jedi Master (Luke) in combat within a few seconds in this movie, sitting him on his arse. A feat that Kylo had previously managed himself as well as a 15-year-old boy, while still in bed (before subsequently destroying Luke skywalker's entire Jedi Academy).

Kylo and Rey are 'super mega powerful Force sensitives', on a totally different scale to anything we've seen before in any of the other movies. In addition to these movies showing us this repeatedly, Luke Skywalker expressly tells us as much.

Her 'space magic' is so powerful she can move boulders, do mind tricks, outfight a Jedi Master, resist a mind probe from someone as powerful as she is and other Jedi feats with in a matter of a few days after being told she was force sensitive.

If she was some pleb waving a sword around then yeah fine (like Finn was in the last movie when he had his backside handed to him when he used the light sabre). But she's not just some nobody with a light sabre. She's a force user more powerful then Yoda or the Emperor or Vader or Luke Skywalker with a light sabre.

It's a little more complicated than that.

While Luke clearly hasn't stopped talking about how powerful people are, as evidenced by his "only seen this kind of power once before" line, we should remember that he had just been talking about how the Force is not a power that people have. Bit of a mixed message there.

Also, arguably the single greatest Force act of the trilogy so far was performed by Luke. Possibly he experienced some degree of awakening as well. (See also Snoke, who did something Kylo believed Rey incapable of doing.)

[Malifice]

, meaning the battle would boil down to man in his 80's living an only semi active life style




.

Luke Skywalker was 19 as of A New Hope making him around the age of 25 when return of the Jedi happens. He is in his late 50's in this film.

Mark Hamill the actor is in his mid 60s.

If you're going to just make sh*t up to suit your argument, I'm done here.

[Mightymosy]

]...]

Spoiler: Super long...

Show

I went through some similar thoughts as well. But mostly, I was pulled out of the movie every time it felt like the characters were sending a message to fans (oh god, the dreaded fans!!) of the franchise. And that started immediately. When Luke throws the lightsaber I was like... ok. That was a strange reaction to the lightsaber, was it supposed to be funny? no one laughed, I hope it won't be like this going forward.

Then he makes the comment about "you expect to go out there and save the day with a laser sword" and I felt unmoored. I was like whoa, what am I watching? Why is Luke Skywalker calling a lightsaber a laser sword?? Why is he implying that it's unreasonable to expect a Jedi to defend the Republic? Well, because we're being told that nothing is sacred and forget about what you know Star Wars to be. **** your expectations.

Ok. That made me wary but I trudged on. Then we see Poe get dressed down, but immediately released to go blow **** up, so I honestly thought the demotion was a minor blip that wasn't really going to go anywhere, because it immediately didn't go anywhere.

Then we get the scene with Leia. Again, Kylo's going to kill her, but he doesn't, she's alive. TIE fighters blow up the bridge, everyone, including Akbar, dies. Except Leia's not dead, she uses the Force to get to the ship, so she's alive. Except she collapses into a coma, so she's out of commission. This kind of stuff is exhausting to me (that seems hyperbolic but not sure how else to explain it). It's a lot of back and forth and simply to get Leia out of the movie temporarily.

Now we get the plot. The Raddus is running out of gas and the Supremacy can track it through Hyperspace. So it can't escape. However, it somehow moves faster than the Supremacy, and the Supremacy can only follow it ineffectually. This immediately takes me out of the movie. There are simply too many pieces for this plot to work. One, the Raddus has to be running out of fuel. Two, the Supremacy must be able to track it through Hyperspace. Three, the Raddus must also be faster than the Supremacy in general. Four, the Supremacy's cannons must be ineffectual at the distance they're at to the Raddus, and Hux must order his TIE fighters back. This immediately feels contrived and has me skeptical that there is nothing between these two fleets that can be done to change this situation before the 18 hours are up.

Kylo and Rey are communicating. I thought that was interesting and was wondering where it would go. Kylo asks "Did he tell you what happened that night?" and I was legit curious what that revelation might be. Luke is still being a **** about training Rey, but then sees the holo from R2. That might be my favorite scene in the movie because it's one of the few scenes that fits and makes sense. Of course that holo would move Luke. I was excited to think he was finally lifted out of his bull**** drama. But then right after he decides to train her, he gets scared of her power and stops training her. This wiffle-waffle theme in the movie is beginning to annoy me.

Holdo is keeping Poe in the dark, so I find out that the demotion actually is a thing. It seems the movie wants me to take Holdo's side, but she should be ensuring everyone that they aren't going to die and there is a plan, so it seems like a mistake that she's keeping everyone in the dark, so maybe we're supposed to sympathize with Poe? Not enough information yet.

Finn and Rey go on a mission. This immediately takes me out of the plot for a second. People can come and go from the ship?? The whole point is that there is no escape from the First Order and they are dead in 18 hours. Now I'm wondering if anyone else can get off or if there are better ways to utilize this escape rather than find this codebreaker. Also, the jargon about how the ships are tracking is jibberish and convenient. As contrived as the basic plot to begin with.

Luke reveals that he ignited his lightsaber over Ben in response to visions in the Force, and Ben saw and defended himself. This comes out of nowhere for me and immediately pulls me out of the movie. It's annoying as I sit there that Disney can't make interesting characters or compelling plots, and they have the audacity to butcher Han and Luke and Leia as they fumble through their own new trilogy. But it's beginning to clear up; this is what we're supposed to like - punishing heroism, washed up and failed heroes, inconsistent plots. Basically, nothing matters. Just throw your hands in the air.

Finn and Rose's plan goes south because they parked on a beach. I groan. This is just stupid to me. The movie is once again laughing at the audience "haha, your daring heroism in your epic space opera has been foiled by a mundane parking infraction". Also, there's a scene where some irons are supposed to look like some machine and then are revealed to be irons, but they looked like irons the entire time and it's stupid and makes me groan some more. We get introduced to del Toro's character. This is all not making sense and I'm losing interest very quickly. They can't get the guy they went there for, because they've been arrested for parking, so they settle on some random thief in their cell. Again, nothing matters in this movie. Just grab some other guy for this high priority, life and death mission that you're on. So they do. There's some messaging about war profiteering and animal cruelty that no one watching cares about, and then Rose releases some animals while leaving the slave children in their chains. I can't believe what I just watched and am convinced at this point that I can go to the bathroom real quick and won't regret that I've missed anything.

Rey hands herself over to the First Order. If she can head over with the Falcon, maybe she could ferry people off the Raddus?? So much for her commitment to the Resistance amiright guys?? This is supposed to be like Luke in RotJ, but I don't know why Rey is suddenly so vested in Kylo's fate that she would risk her own life for him. The movie doesn't really explain it either. I guess it's the typical good girl trying to save/change the bad guy. Girl power lol. We're introduced to Snoke. He's obnoxious. He's hurting Rey with the Force, I don't care because I know she's not going to die here. Kylo is poised to kill her, but I know he won't kill her. In fact, I know he'll kill Snoke because Snoke is telegraphing it like crazy. So much so that I expect him to foil the attempt. But no, he dies. Seems pretty easy, like something Kylo could have done any time he was walking alongside Snoke through the Supremacy, or behind him, or whatever; just bzzt, turn your lightsaber on into the old man. Then we get a fight with no stakes between two uninteresting characters and a bunch of faceless guards. A lightsaber detonates, because why not, and fade to black.

Meanwhile, Poe pulls of a mutiny. So now I'm thinking the point of his demotion was simply to set him into conflict with Holdo, to create this interesting situation back on the Raddus so something interesting could actually happen in the movie. So I'm thinking Poe is going to save the day. But surprise surprise, Finn and Rose are betrayed and Poe's mission fails and Leia once again visits violence against him. Thing is, this really surprised me when it happened. I thought "wait... so Poe is wrong? But, Holdo didn't tell them all they were saved, what was he supposed to do? what was anyone supposed to do? Accept their fate peacefully and just die?" It brought me back to the dreadnought and had me confused. Poe is a heroic man of action, but this movie is saying that's bad and doesn't work. I mean, at this point in the movie I'm just giving up because so far nothing it's doing or saying resonates with me.

Everyone on the transports are dying so Holdo sacrifices herself. The scene looks and "sounds" incredible. But if it could be done now, it could have been done 18 hours ago. The plot already felt contrived, but knowing that the Resistance could have done something sooner to fight back/escape is pretty glaring. There could have been a much more interesting plot with the same mutiny, in a fight between Holdo and Poe to either escape on stealth transports and lead the First Order away, or evacuate the Raddus and ram the Supremacy, taking out the First Order leadership. But instead we get this convoluted mess. Sometimes heroism and sacrifice is good, but only when the movie tells you it's good. Sometimes the First Order scans for cloaked ships, but only when a random stranger suggests for them to.

We get to Crait. The base only has one door because, why would it have two?? Leia puts Poe in command because why would that be inconsistent with his arc so far?? Finn sacrifices himself to save the Resistance, but Rose stops him. I roll my eyes. Again, the movie will tell you when sacrifice and heroism is good. It's not when Finn does it. It's not when Poe does it. Finn and Rose exchange some words while the First Order watches on with patience and understanding. Then they are allowed to return to the base unmolested, because this movie just doesn't give a flying **** lol.

Luke shows up and goes outside. He survives a **** ton of laser shots. I'm excited now because Luke has finally left his hideout and is acting like an adult and taking responsibility for his "mistake". Kylo goes to kill him but ha! It's a force projection, Luke isn't even there. I'm excited because Luke seems OP and is now in the fight against the First Order. I guess it will take three movies but we'll see Luke fighting again with the powers of a grandmaster. Oh wait, he's dead. I shake my head again. Completely pointless. Nothing matters in this movie. I'm impressed with their dedication to that principle.

Rey lifts a bunch of rocks to help everyone escape. They all look surprised, including herself. I'm pulled out of the movie again because their reactions confuse me, and then I realize that, even though the audience knows that Rey can do anything, the people in the movie don't. Duh, lol.

The end. I leave the theater completely uninterested in the next movie, and wondering why Disney felt the best way to lay the old Star Wars to rest was to brutally mangle it and send a message to the fans that nothing matters and they don't give a ****.

That was amazingly well written and is almost the same way I have experienced. How about signing this and sending it to people who care?

Oh right, because nobody seems to care.....

Well, at the very least, what you wrote should be placed as an article somewhere. It's way more in-depth and wll thought through than a lot of written reviews I have read.

Have you considered submitting it so some site?

The one part that could come about as a little ill-spirited is about the "girls power" thing, and I don't know if this was intended by you.
Matter of fact, I am a little suspicious that something like this:
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood...ll-in-love-sex
might be the plans for Star Wars IX...

[Metahuman1]

Luke Skywalker was 19 as of A New Hope making him around the age of 25 when return of the Jedi happens. He is in his late 50's in this film.

Mark Hamill the actor is in his mid 60s.

If you're going to just make sh*t up to suit your argument, I'm done here.

And canonically how many decades happened between the end of Return Of The Jedi and the start of The Force Awakens? They go on about it like it was 50 years or more. (Also the line "I came here to die." tends to suggest Luke is REALLY up there in years which, hate to break it too you, late 50's really kind of isn't. )



Also, even if I assume She's 23 and He's 58, I gotta tell ya, the much more active and physically comparably sized 23 year old is going to tend to have my vote for having an advantage in a brawl over the physically much more sedate over the long term of here life 58 year old. And that's BEFORE she substantially escalated the weaponry.

[Mightymosy]

On another topic: anyone up for discussing the Admiral Holdo character?
I can't grasp what they invented her for. If they wanted a rebel character for a heroic sacrifice, Leia would have been a good choice, considering her actress sadly died.
Barring that, why not use Admiral Ackbar?
I don't understand why they introduced her character, just to have her die anyway.

[zimmerwald1915]

If they wanted a rebel character for a heroic sacrifice, Leia would have been a good choice, considering her actress sadly died.

Withholding Leia's onscreen death despite three (?) opportunities and despite Fisher's death is completely of a piece with this movie's primary aim of "**** with the audience."

[GloatingSwine]

On another topic: anyone up for discussing the Admiral Holdo character?
I can't grasp what they invented her for. If they wanted a rebel character for a heroic sacrifice, Leia would have been a good choice, considering her actress sadly died.
Barring that, why not use Admiral Ackbar?
I don't understand why they introduced her character, just to have her die anyway.

To manipulate you into thinking that Poe's plan is the actual plot. That requires a leader that the audience doesn't know and has no sympathy with so they don't stop and examine what's actually going on.

[Metahuman1]

To manipulate you into thinking that Poe's plan is the actual plot. That requires a leader that the audience doesn't know and has no sympathy with so they don't stop and examine what's actually going on.

Pity she was too grossly incompetent to pull it off. Poe was in the freaking right objectively, particularly buy the time he takes control.

And they could have avoided it with less than 60 seconds of dialog. But it was more important to F with the audience.

[GloatingSwine]

Pity she was too grossly incompetent to pull it off. Poe was in the freaking right objectively, particularly buy the time he takes control.

We have exhaustively covered why that is wrong.