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2018-01-18, 01:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
It is a defence situation - but not defence of self - defence of others - the larger group of people the train is heading toward.
The intent is not specifically "kill the innocent" the intent is to "deflect the train away from innocents" - it just so happens, that there's no trajectory the train can head on that won't kill anyone.
I think even a Kantian, at the wheel of a crashing plane heading for a city, would direct it away from the city, knowing that it would still kill people in the suburb of that city - because killing people is an unavoidable side effect - it's not the goal.Last edited by hamishspence; 2018-01-18 at 01:57 PM.
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2018-01-18, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
No, someone shouldn't need a gaming manual to tell them. But for some reason the gaming manual version of "good vs evil" seems to cause a lot of arguments and confusion on that front, with a lot of "this is what good and evil are in this world even if it's not the same as our world" juxtaposed with "good and evil are objective, universal, and cosmic".
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-01-18, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
Thousands of years of philosophers have yet to agree on what is good and evil.
I don't expect gamers to do much better at finding a universally acceptable answer.
The only reasonable paths are:
1) Don't use "good" and "evil".
2) Define how the game is using the terms, regardless of whether people agree with the objective value of that usage."Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"
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2018-01-18, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
3) Don't include cosmic and/or objective "good" and "evil" as part of the setting, and leave it a matter for philosophers and priests to discuss, for fathers to argue about with their sons, etc.
If your setting has deities or other fantastic entities of that ilk, don't try to line them up as "good" or "evil" either, line them up along their purported areas of focus and interest, and concentrate on how those areas align and/or conflict with the interests of a character, a society, or a people. A deity's priest might promote and assert those things that their deity "says" are good, and denounce those things that their deity "says" are bad, but they'll disagree with other priests of other sects or deities, and that's no more guaranteed to be "good" or "evil" than what a wise mortal might declare to his/her followers.
(Maybe that's a subset of 1 or 2, not sure...)Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2018-01-18 at 02:18 PM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-01-18, 02:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
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2018-01-18, 02:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
I wasn't sure exactly how you meant "don't use 'good' and 'evil'".
It's not like we need objective cosmic-powered good and evil, and associated color-coding, for people or characters to explore questions of morality -- to wonder and worry and even agonize over, what is good or evil, what is right or wrong, what is ethical or unethical, what is proper or improper. That happens in real life all the time.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2018-01-18 at 03:04 PM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-01-18, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2016
Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
I both agree and disagree with this. I went with #2 myself as I felt it opened up the most interesting possibilities however I don't necessarily think the default of some ambiguity is quite as bad as you say. When not playing a game it certainly starts endless debates however for in game actions I would put it as less problematic than grappling rules based on my experience. Then again that could be because I know entirely too many people who specialize IRL grappling and they keep trying to apply that to D&D.
Firm opponent of the one true path
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2018-01-18, 03:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
Regarding #2: I once compiled a big list of 3.0-3.5 alignment related sourcebook statements:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ements-summary
Phrased as "might be" rather than "must" - they're useful as a starting point, even if not the be-all and end-all.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2018-01-18, 03:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
Firm opponent of the one true path
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2018-01-18, 03:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
If I had to do it again I'd probably include Corrupt and Obesiant acts from Fiendish Codex 2.
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2018-01-18, 06:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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2018-01-18, 07:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
Regarding infanticide, pretty much no humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or giant race has the "always evil" alignment, and none of them have the [EVIL] subtype; killing them is wrong, even under D&D's morality, because they haven;t done anything wrong (yet). They're neutral until they do something. And even a 5e orc isn't going to be able to do much harm as a baby even if they are taking instructions from Grummish. Always Evil is generally reserved for fiends, aberrations, and the undead. Contrast the harmless orc or gnoll baby with baby mind flayers or ekolids, which start out with eating people and only get worse from there
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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2018-01-18, 07:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
D&D might benefit from the addition of "ungood" acts; things that will drop you from good to neutral, but will never move you from neutral to evil or from evil to neutral. Plus corresponding deed types for the other alignments.
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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2018-01-18, 07:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
Why do Discordian avatars have four squares, while triple posts come in groups of 3?
"Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"
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2018-01-18, 08:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
5e Lore post-Volo's there are no Gnoll babies. They are spawned directly from Hyenas by Yeenoghu.
Orc whelps get a combination of nature and nurture, the whisper of Gruumsh and the training of the followers of Luthic. Or, if you prefer, that might be considered divine nurture and mortal nurture. It's worth noting that half-orcs hear the whispers of Gruumsh too. They don't always grow up evil, although it's noted they usually are if they grow up with the Orc tribes.
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2018-01-18, 08:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2016
Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
Omegaupdate Forum
WoTC Forums Archive + Indexing Projext
PostImage, a free and sensible alternative to Photobucket
Temple+ Modding Project for Atari's Temple of Elemental Evil
Morrus' RPG Forum (EN World v2)
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2018-01-18, 08:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
I'm QUITE aware of what it's from.
I was riffing on "why do hot dogs come in packages of 8, but hot dog buns in packages of 6."
I now suspect you are an agent of Greyface, and will perform the Turkey Curse on you.
GOBBLEGOBBLEGOBBLEGOBBLEGOBBLEGOBBLEGOBBLEGOBBLEGO BBLEGOBBLEGOBBLE
"Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"
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2018-01-19, 02:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
And I'm saying you shouldn't give undue weight to perceptions of people who don't know better. Concluding "this thing ought to not be in games!" from "this shocked people!" is nonsense.
I don't deny the perception, I deny its implications.
Originally Posted by Aliquid
Both characters are widely seen as heroes in the context of their adventures. This doesn't mean people are unaware of how inapplicable their actions are to real world: see 1001 jokes about Samus Aran, THE DESTROYER OF WORLDS, etc.. Notice the accompanying lack of people seriously wishing for Samus to stop murderizing innocent wildlife.
Originally Posted by Aliquid
This is NOT HYPOTHETICAL, because banning Evil alignment and hence evil acts is common as dirt.
Again, remember that a lot of the debaters found their argument on in-game or in-setting rules, which is entirely different ball game. I don't take issue with arguments that start with "act X is Evil because rule boom Y calls it out as such".
Originally Posted by Aliquid
Originally Posted by Aliquid
Originally Posted by Aliquid"It's the fate of all things under the sky,
to grow old and wither and die."
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2018-01-19, 03:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
Good morning, fine folks. Just got up, had my cup of tea, got me a seal cub and used that to club some random babies to death. No loot, sadly.
Going by some arguments that have been made in this thread alone, like equating the wish to keep the game simple and free of morality, because that comes in the way of an adventure game (kick in door, kill pie, kiss orc...) and doing so by introducing a very simple us vs. them that should work as buffer when questions come up, with a certain very dark time in recent history, then no, it seem that once you're in the in-group, you tend to not perceive yourself as being in the in-group...
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2018-01-19, 03:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
@Florian: I'm not sure I parsed your sentence right.
Are you saying that there are morally alarmist roleplayers who, because they are roleplayers, somehow don't realize their arguments are equivalent to non-roleplaying moral alarmists?Last edited by Frozen_Feet; 2018-01-19 at 03:39 AM.
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2018-01-19, 07:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
Ok, more elaborate this time.
Question is whether a RPG system is about violence or just makes use of violence.
(3E) D&D is about "Enter the dungeon, slay the dragon, loot the hoard, rinse and repeat", the content being combat. The objective morality tied to the alignments system plays into that, by declaring some things to be "Evil" and the core rules being clear on not playing "Evil" (ie. No Murder, no raping, no torture). This should inform you about things that are not wanted, like having a "24"-style discussion whether torture for the good cause is acceptable.
We can contrast that to game systems / non-core variants of D&D that have "violence" (as keyed to moral decisions) as their content instead of simple "Combat".
The moral alarmist makes the error of equating "combat" with "violence" and goes from there, ignoring the fundamental difference between those modes to approach the game, as, incidentally, does the moral relativist in understanding how the first example works.
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2018-01-19, 07:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
Ok. Straightforward enough. I'm still confused by the "once you're in the ingroup, you tend to not perceive yourself as being in the ingroup" part, as I can't quite relate that part to your clarification. Which ingroup did you mean? The moral ingroup of player characters?
"It's the fate of all things under the sky,
to grow old and wither and die."
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2018-01-19, 07:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
Actually the "no torture" thing is not specifically called out in 3.0-3.5 core - only in splatbooks.
Early D&D (Moldvay Basic Edition) did give as examples of "behaviour inappropriate to their alignment" "A Good character who murders or tortures a prisoner" - but I'm not sure if 1st ed AD&D or 2nd ed AD&D had the same.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2018-01-19, 09:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
IIRC 1st Edition AD&D does call it out, but it also does not prohibit Evil characters. The idea that the player characters must be Good was introduced by 2nd Edition, partially as a response to one of the aforementioned moral panics. (TSR had in-company guidelines for content during the same era, now findable on the net. Your opinions may vary on how well they ever followed them.)
"It's the fate of all things under the sky,
to grow old and wither and die."
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2018-01-19, 10:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
Not sure it's really fair to equate qualms about an "Us vs Them" setup that uses "good vs evil" labels... with engaging in alarmism or "satanic panic".
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-01-19, 10:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
Itīs fair. Using objective morality (aka alignments) basically means that moral questions are not part of the game, as in they already have been answered, don't engage in discussions, don't suspect any ill intend. Good/Law = Defenders of society, Evil/Chaos = Attack society. Nothing more, no deeper meaning, no "All Paladins represent the white race, all orcs are negros"... or something like that.
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2018-01-19, 11:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
The actual ideas I am equating to such are "in-game morality necessarily reflects the players' real life morality!" and "in-game morality must be so-and-so because I don't want other people to mistake in-game morality for my real morality!"
The specific forms these take vary, but are at the root of all moral alarmism.
Examples:
"The characters in a D&D game worship pagan gods and devils, so the players must be Anti-Christian!"
"I don't want to be seen as Anti-Christian, so lets remove all real gods and demons from the game!"
"Video games are violent, so the players must think violence against other humans is acceptable!"
"I don't want to be seen as a violent person, let's remove all violence from video games!"
"D&D distinquishes characters based on class, race and sex, so the players must be classist, sexist and racist!"
"I don't want to be seen as classist, racist or sexist, so lets remove classes and make all races and sexes equal!"
"This movie has women, homosexuals and black people in lead roles, so the creators must be deplorable cucks!"
"I don't want to be seen as a deplorable cuck, so lets have more movies with straight white men in the lead!"
"This game has swastikas, NAZIS! NAZIS EVERYWHERE!"
"I want nothing to do with nazis, lets remove all swastikas and symbols that even roughly look like it from everything ever, including the Jainist flag."
So on and so forth.
None of the examples are hypothetical.
So, remind me... what sort of qualms did you have again?
Was it "alignment uses good versus evil for us versus them, so people who use alignment are endorsing tribalism"?
Or "I don't want to be seen as a tribalist, so lets remove alignment from games"?
I don't think it was."It's the fate of all things under the sky,
to grow old and wither and die."
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2018-01-19, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2010
Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
Imagine if all real-world conversations were like internet D&D conversations...
Protip: DnD is an incredibly social game played by some of the most socially inept people on the planet - Lev
I read this somewhere and I stick to it: "I would rather play a bad system with my friends than a great system with nobody". - Trevlac
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2018-01-19, 12:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
The only way to remove moral questions from the game is to remove morality. As soon as you add morality -- "objective" or not -- you add moral questions. Using "good" and "evil" as your Team Us and Team Them names immediately makes the division one of (at least supposed) morality.
Which is in and of itself a moral claim about the nature of the society.
Has anyone on this thread even gone into such ridiculous territory? If so, I missed it.It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-01-19, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2006
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- Marlinspike
Re: alignment is bad and you should feel bad
I haven't and am not arguing that "this ought not to be in games". I'm not against it at all. I'm just avoiding arguing in support of it. I'm backing off and knowing that sometimes it is best not to strongly argue my opinions when those opinions appear to go against the values of the audience I am communicating with.
Unless of course my personal values state that my opinion is correct, and theirs are damaging to society or whatever... then I will enter the debate. But with this debate, I believe I am right, but don't care if others disagree. If someone things killing monster babies is evil... that doesn't pose a threat to my values at all.
And if you don't know anybody like that, you didn't look very hard.
I could just switch to even more on-point examples of Metroid and Aliens again: show me who loses their sleep over Samus Aran genociding metroids or Ellen Ripley scorching xenomorph eggs.
Wrong. When talking about the specific sort of argument you are trying to make, these are one and the same, because the follow-up to "this can't be in-game good because people might mistake it for real-world good" is "player characters aren't allowed to do in-game evil because someone might mistake it for real-world evil".
The banning of evil characters in gaming groups is mostly because a good portion of people who want to play "evil" characters are idiots and horrible team players. Only a minority of people can play an evil character intelligently.
And I flat out told you that I don't consider people in these threads to be representative of anything. I literally don't design or hold games to people in these threads, so I won't use them as a standard for how games ought to be. Why should you?
Of course, because demon babies are fictional constructs judged by fictional rules, and human babies are real objects which aren't treated the same even by those fictional rules. That's the point and that is why I disagree with you. I have no reason to use real standards for fictional beings because of someone's mistaken perceptions.
So you somehow missed the entire Satanic panic as applied to roleplaying games, heavy metal and fantasy literature during 80s and 90s
the entire moral panic surrounding violence in videogames during 90s and early 2000sand the entire leftwing moral panic over misogyny/racism/etc. across all of media right now?