Questionable Content 12: Artificial Unintelligence

[Thufir]

Are there established gay/bi characters other than Dora, Tai, Elliot, Clinton, and Faye's sister and her girlfriend?

Edit: Forgot Marten's dads.

Clinton isn't even confirmed unless I'm forgetting something. Renee appears to be bi though. And possibly Pintsize.

[Wraith]

Straight characters, off the top of my head: Marten, Claire, Marigold, Dale, Ms Reed, Jim, Momo, Raven, Penelope, Wil, Sven, Steve, Cosette. Maybe you'd debate some of those still being considered 'main' characters when they haven't been seen for a while, but they're still pretty numerous.

I believe that rather than being literally true, this is a reference to a series of tweets that Jeph made a couple of weeks ago - the gist of the thread being that some rando DM'd him complaining about there being "too many token characters" in the comic, to which Jeph responded by declaring ALL of his characters to be either gay or bisexual, and that every time someone complained about a minority character in QC then he would add another just to spite them.

It's part of a fairly well reasoned monologue in which Jeph points out that "token" characters are only that if you have a pre-set limit of how many gay, lesbian, black or whatever people that you're prepared to tolerate being in your immediate vicinity, and if there being more makes you uncomfortable then you're not inclusive; just a slightly more patient bigot.

I thought he was at first just being sarcastic in order to annoy people on Twitter, but since then he's brought in two new minority characters - asexual Tilly and black lesbian Evie - so he may well be making good on his threat.

And possibly Pintsize.

For some reason I remember Pintsize more or less stating himself to be omnisexual - so long as it has a hole, a protrusion or both then he probably wants to do unspeakable things to it. I don't know, though, if that's because I read it in the comic or because I saw the word elsewhere and decided that it applied here, too.

[Max_Killjoy]

I believe that rather than being literally true, this is a reference to a series of tweets that Jeph made a couple of weeks ago - the gist of the thread being that some rando DM'd him complaining about there being "too many token characters" in the comic, to which Jeph responded by declaring ALL of his characters to be either gay or bisexual, and that every time someone complained about a minority character in QC then he would add another just to spite them.

It's part of a fairly well reasoned monologue in which Jeph points out that "token" characters are only that if you have a pre-set limit of how many gay, lesbian, black or whatever people that you're prepared to tolerate being in your immediate vicinity, and if there being more makes you uncomfortable then you're not inclusive; just a slightly more patient bigot.

I thought he was at first just being sarcastic in order to annoy people on Twitter, but since then he's brought in two new minority characters - asexual Tilly and black lesbian Evie - so he may well be making good on his threat.

I hope he's just being snarky... I'd hate to think that he's letting trolls and bigots control the creative direction of his work, even if it's out of spite and contrariness towards them.

[Yana]

It wouldn't be so bad if some of them weren't so... grating. This is directed more towards Taffy and Renee. Evie isn't anywhere near as frustrating a presence in the story by comparison to those two.

[Shadow of the Sun]

And an epiphany in... 3, 2, 1...

[Max_Killjoy]

Because of course no one ever felt even a twinge of jealousy when their close (but utterly platonic and totally not the gender they're attracted to) friend started dating someone.

[eee]

DAAANNNGGG, Evie's good!

I can't tell if Amanda is trying so hard not to say something she's almost herniating herself, or she's got a hentai nosebleed, or she's repressing giggles, or perhaps all three at once.

It can't be good for her, though.

[RowenMorland]

It wouldn't be so bad if some of them weren't so... grating. This is directed more towards Taffy and Renee. Evie isn't anywhere near as frustrating a presence in the story by comparison to those two.

I think Renee should get a story pass for being grating. She is alternative Faye, so we're seeing how Faye comes off if she wasn't a sympathetic main character where we get to see behind the scenes and who gets comedy props.

[Beelzebub1111]

Jesus christ is this a lunch or a cult indoctrination?

[Lethologica]

I think Renee should get a story pass for being grating. She is alternative Faye, so we're seeing how Faye comes off if she wasn't a sympathetic main character where we get to see behind the scenes and who gets comedy props.

Renee is a foil to Faye in that her irritating behavior comes without the depth that affords Faye her redeeming features in the eyes of the audience? I mean, I suppose it counts as intentional, but a reason is not always a good reason.

I'm also not convinced that this is the intent. Apart from being Faye's counterpart at the Secret Bakery, Renee has developed along rather different lines--a regular person (if something of a busybody) who plays exasperated and sometimes overbearing straight woman to the oddities of Brun and Elliott.

[Keltest]

Renee is a foil to Faye in that her irritating behavior comes without the depth that affords Faye her redeeming features in the eyes of the audience? I mean, I suppose it counts as intentional, but a reason is not always a good reason.

I'm also not convinced that this is the intent. Apart from being Faye's counterpart at the Secret Bakery, Renee has developed along rather different lines--a regular person (if something of a busybody) who plays exasperated and sometimes overbearing straight woman to the oddities of Brun and Elliott.

I would also argue that Faye doesn't get treated special just for being a main character. Her biggest flaws are acknowledged as flaws that actually bother the people in proximity to her, whereas Renee just... keeps going without anyone commenting on the fact that she's a horrible person.

[RowenMorland]

Renee is a foil to Faye in that her irritating behavior comes without the depth that affords Faye her redeeming features in the eyes of the audience? I mean, I suppose it counts as intentional, but a reason is not always a good reason.

I'm also not convinced that this is the intent. Apart from being Faye's counterpart at the Secret Bakery, Renee has developed along rather different lines--a regular person (if something of a busybody) who plays exasperated and sometimes overbearing straight woman to the oddities of Brun and Elliott.

We still don't know a lot about her so assuming she gets unpacked somewhat in the 500 comics I think it could work/be worth it.

Also I'll just add that I'm in no way saying that if that is the intent of her character then your feelings about her aren't legit, only that it would be a pretty cool narrative device.

[Kato]

And possibly Pintsize.

I think concerning Pintsize the relevant assumption is " there's no-one alive who can comprehend my sexual preference."

As much as I enjoy Eevie pushing this part of the plot forward I a) don't see too much genius about her actions, but opposed to other people around the two she actually acts on her... should I call it shipping? And b) she has known the two for an hour! If it was Claire doing this I would not complain but she hardly knows them and she's meddling with this and I feel we accept it because we know them way better and want this to be a thing.

[Wraith]

And b) she has known the two for an hour! If it was Claire doing this I would not complain but she hardly knows them and she's meddling with this and I feel we accept it because we know them way better and want this to be a thing.

This mirrors my own feelings on the subject. It feels like Squidbot again - Jeph has written a plot and apparently has decided he's tired of it, so he has invented a new character to bring in and try to 'solve' everything. Admittedly Faye is being pretty dense about it so it may yet go in another direction, but....

Who is Evie to force the issue? Why has she taken it upon herself to interfere with Faye and Bubbles' relationship? It could be written off as shipping - which in real life is just meddling by another name - except that Evie has already stated that she has a vested interest in emergent robot psychology, so her prompting of a lesbian AI/human romance could possibly be interpreted as self-serving and even unethical.

[Dukkai]

I believe that rather than being literally true, this is a reference to a series of tweets that Jeph made a couple of weeks ago - the gist of the thread being that some rando DM'd him complaining about there being "too many token characters" in the comic, to which Jeph responded by declaring ALL of his characters to be either gay or bisexual, and that every time someone complained about a minority character in QC then he would add another just to spite them.

It's part of a fairly well reasoned monologue in which Jeph points out that "token" characters are only that if you have a pre-set limit of how many gay, lesbian, black or whatever people that you're prepared to tolerate being in your immediate vicinity, and if there being more makes you uncomfortable then you're not inclusive; just a slightly more patient bigot.

I thought he was at first just being sarcastic in order to annoy people on Twitter, but since then he's brought in two new minority characters - asexual Tilly and black lesbian Evie - so he may well be making good on his threat.

that sounds like.. well, sawing off the branch you are sitting on...

I understand pushing the envelope a bit to accommodate for different "token"/minority character in order to raise awareness a bit, but trying to force someone to accept something they, at the moment, are not ready to accept is a bit.. counterproductive..

[John Cribati]

that sounds like.. well, sawing off the branch you are sitting on...

I understand pushing the envelope a bit to accommodate for different "token"/minority character in order to raise awareness a bit, but trying to force someone to accept something they, at the moment, are not ready to accept is a bit.. counterproductive..

I, for one, am pro-dragging-bigots-kicking-and-screaming-into-the-21st-century. And if it comes to it, I'd prefer to be doing the kicking and they the screaming.

[Max_Killjoy]

I, for one, amd pro-dragging-bigots-kicking-and-screaming-into-the-21st-century. And if it comes to it, I'd prefer to be doing the kicking and they the screaming.

You've set yourself an impossible task... you can't change people's beliefs by literally or figuratively beating the unapproved thoughts out of their heads. And related to that, calling people names (idiot, ignorant, stupid, redneck, bigot, privileged, whatever, etc) won't make them say "Oh hey you're right I was being stupid for not agreeing with you", especially when it amounts to throwing buzzwords at people who don't actually suffer from the failing in question.

Meanwhile, if a comic book artist lets the Righteous Crusade take over their work, it probably ruins it. (See, Willis.)

[Max_Killjoy]

As much as I enjoy Eevie pushing this part of the plot forward I a) don't see too much genius about her actions, but opposed to other people around the two she actually acts on her... should I call it shipping? And b) she has known the two for an hour! If it was Claire doing this I would not complain but she hardly knows them and she's meddling with this and I feel we accept it because we know them way better and want this to be a thing.

This mirrors my own feelings on the subject. It feels like Squidbot again - Jeph has written a plot and apparently has decided he's tired of it, so he has invented a new character to bring in and try to 'solve' everything. Admittedly Faye is being pretty dense about it so it may yet go in another direction, but....

Who is Evie to force the issue? Why has she taken it upon herself to interfere with Faye and Bubbles' relationship? It could be written off as shipping - which in real life is just meddling by another name - except that Evie has already stated that she has a vested interest in emergent robot psychology, so her prompting of a lesbian AI/human romance could possibly be interpreted as self-serving and even unethical.

Indeed, Amanda and Evie just met Bubbles and no idea she existed before today (in strip time), right? Who are they to think they know what's going on, let alone try to force the issue?

This is a case of characters acting on things that the readers know but they don't... and once you remove the "but we've seen this other stuff happen" from consideration, then you have to look for other reasons for these characters to do what they're doing, other motivations.

To me, it comes across as in general the way I've observed that people who are in fairly new relationships often try really hard to get all their single friends into relationships too, and the way that newly married people often prod their friends in relationships to get married too. For Evie, there's also the aforementioned academic interest in the subject.

Of course, real-life shippers tend to base their OTPs on even more spurious and superficial grounds. ("Ermagerd, they had an argument, they're going to fall in love and have all the babies! Squeeeee!")

Or it could just be sloppy writing and Jeph doesn't have a strong handle on what these characters do and don't know relative to the "omniscient" viewpoint that he and the audience hold. This would be a good example for my "things happening for story reasons instead of in-character reasons" gripe.

[John Cribati]

You've set yourself an impossible task... you can't change people's beliefs by literally or figuratively beating the unapproved thoughts out of their heads.

Well good thing that's not what I'm saying. The world is changing (or, to be more accurate, has never actually been what it has been portrayed as, demographically speaking), stories are changing to reflect this perspective, and these stories are becoming more and more popular. People who don't like the trend have the choice if accepting it or abstaining from media altogether because there's no longer any point in bellyaching about it.

And related to that, calling people names (idiot, ignorant, stupid, redneck, bigot, privileged, whatever, etc)

"Bigot" and "privileged" aren't names. They're objective terms used to describe someone's views and someone's societal standing, respectively. "Ignorant," as well, has an objective meaning and thenonly point of contention is whether the ignorance is willful or not.

[Dukkai]

I, for one, amd pro-dragging-bigots-kicking-and-screaming-into-the-21st-century. And if it comes to it, I'd prefer to be doing the kicking and they the screaming.

So.. anyone not agreeing with your point of view is a bigot? interesting point of view. Remind me, why do you think that your point of view is more correct then theirs?

Also, I was referring to the fact that by ever expanding the number of said characters in order to irritate people will eventually lead to more and more people being irritated.

I.e., for the sake of discussion, let's say that the number of "token" characters" a person A can tolerate is 2. And he complains to Jeff and Jeff introduces another character out of spite. Now, there is person B who was OK with 2, but 3 is too much for him. So now he complains to Jeff and Jeff makes another character so now there is 4. But, you have a person C who was OK with 3, but 4 is too much...

you see the pattern? by expanding the number of characters you will eventually be pushing against the limits of more and more people who will again complain/bitch about it and cause the creation of more and more characters. In the end, nothing productive is being done other then creating new characters and stories around them whose sole purpose is to irritate certain people.

[John Cribati]

Generally speaking, anyone who'd be irritated by a character by sole merit of their gender, race, or sexual orientation is probably bigoted, yes.

[Dukkai]

Generally speaking, anyone who'd be irritated by a character by sole merit of their gender, race, or sexual orientation is probably bigoted, yes.

yeah, but so are those who try to force characters on other people with the sole purpose of promoting their worldview. The is no high horse here, bigotry goes both ways, only ignorance is relative.

[Wraith]

To me, it comes across as in general the way I've observed that people who are in fairly new relationships often try really hard to get all their single friends into relationships too, and the way that newly married people often prod their friends in relationships to get married too. For Evie, there's also the aforementioned academic interest in the subject.

An interesting perspective - Evie's interest in Faye/Bubbles is a form of self-validation?

She and Amanda are in a lesbian relationship - that's obviously the "right" thing to do, because if it were "wrong" then they wouldn't have done it, right? And if it's obviously "right", then it makes sense for other people to do it to, and be "right" like them.
Them being human or AI is irrelevant, unless we also interpret Evie and Amanda's interracial relationship as a comparable social obstacle to an interspecies one - they're from the South, which I'm led to believe is particularly somewhere that might hold objections to such a thing. Evie's investment in these two strangers suddenly becomes clear and strangely neurotic: If Faye can make it with a robot, then she can make it with Amanda, too!

I honestly don't think that Jeph has written the characters to be this deep, but it's certainly an interesting angle that I hadn't considered.

So.. anyone not agreeing with your point of view is a bigot? interesting point of view. Remind me, why do you think that your point of view is more correct then theirs?

I'm kinda with you on this one. Bigots, racists, sexists and so on are obviously wrong.... but they're allowed to be wrong until their views start hurting other people. Forcibly indoctrinating them - "kicking them until they scream" - is just as totalitarian and oppressive as letting them have their own unrestricted way.

Why can't people just be nice to each other?

[Beelzebub1111]

Generally speaking, anyone who'd be irritated by a character by sole merit of their gender, race, or sexual orientation is probably bigoted, yes.

What if I'm irritated that the soul merit of these characters is their gender, race, or sexual orientation?

[Max_Killjoy]

"Bigot" and "privileged" aren't names. They're objective terms used to describe someone's views and someone's societal standing, respectively. "Ignorant," as well, has an objective meaning and thenonly point of contention is whether the ignorance is willful or not.

No, despite their objective meanings, they're quite often used in the form of outright "name calling" based solely on whether the person they're being directed at agrees with the person using them, on some tangential issue. People get called X because they hold position B, not because they're actually X.

Going beyond that probably pushes the rule against politics.

[John Cribati]

What if I'm irritated that the soul merit of these characters is their gender, race, or sexual orientation?

That's fair. But that's the kind of critique you pull out after they've gone through a few arcs. If your response to a new character 2 strips in is to ask the author "why did they have to be X" the problem is likely that you don't like to see that category of person on principle. And that's... bigoted.

[John Cribati]

Forcibly indoctrinating them - "kicking them until they scream" - is just as totalitarian and oppressive as letting them have their own unrestricted way.

Please Direct your attention to the following:

Well good thing that's not what I'm saying. The world is changing (or, to be more accurate, has never actually been what it has been portrayed as, demographically speaking), stories are changing to reflect this perspective, and these stories are becoming more and more popular. People who don't like the trend have the choice of accepting it or abstaining from media altogether because there's no longer any point in bellyaching about it.

[Cikomyr]

Who is Evie to force the issue? Why has she taken it upon herself to interfere with Faye and Bubbles' relationship? It could be written off as shipping - which in real life is just meddling by another name - except that Evie has already stated that she has a vested interest in emergent robot psychology, so her prompting of a lesbian AI/human romance could possibly be interpreted as self-serving and even unethical.

But she isnt forcing anything on anyone. She is trying to get Faye to understand something about herself or about Bubble.

If she doesnt get there, she doesnt get there because there's nothing there ot she's not ready yet. But trying to get someone to be more aware of their emotions or other people's is not what i would call meddling.

[Max_Killjoy]

But she isnt forcing anything on anyone. She is trying to get Faye to understand something about herself or about Bubble.

If she doesnt get there, she doesnt get there because there's nothing there ot she's not ready yet. But trying to get someone to be more aware of their emotions or other people's is not what i would call meddling.

I'd call it meddling -- not to mention presumptuous when directed at someone they just met today.

Then again, I've had two instances of "friends" who got it into their heads that I should be dating a female friend and thus doing their damnedest to "get us together" and almost ruining the friendship (with the female friend) because they gave her the impression that they were "working on my behalf".

[georgie_leech]

But she isnt forcing anything on anyone. She is trying to get Faye to understand something about herself or about Bubble.

If she doesnt get there, she doesnt get there because there's nothing there ot she's not ready yet. But trying to get someone to be more aware of their emotions or other people's is not what i would call meddling.

I would, when you've literally just met a person. Nothing against her as a character, but this is the sort of direct forcing an issue that I'm uncomfortable with. I prefer the Marten/Claire method of growing more intimate over time. Even if I am gonna cheer from the rooftops when/if the S.S. Baye sets sail.