[Pathfinder] Shadow Mastery + Simulacrum = ????

[Jack_Simth]

Curious about whether or not this actually works...

Suppose an Oracle takes the Shadow Mystery, then goes for both Dark Secrets and Shadow Mastery, eventually picking up Simulacrum as a spell known. Would this mean that at - say - 15th level, a Simulacrum created by such a character would have 65% of the original's hit dice, abilities, and so on?

[Florian]

Nope, sorry. Simulacrum runs on its own rules and Shadow-type spells can only copy them, up to a relative "power" of 100%, meaning then it´s a normal Simulcarum.

[unseenmage]

Nope, sorry. Simulacrum runs on its own rules and Shadow-type spells can only copy them, up to a relative "power" of 100%, meaning then it´s a normal Simulcarum.

Could you explain further please? Am not sure I understand what you mean to say.

[Florian]

Could you explain further please? Am not sure I understand what you mean to say.

Simulacrum might be Illusion and Shadow, but runs by its own rules. the added +% reality of shadow spells down´t interact with that in any way, so they cannot override it, as its not counted as one of the Shadow-type spells (Shadow Invocation, etc.)

OTOH, if you're serious with Shadow-type spells, you should already know how to push CL past the feasible limit (CL +5 to +10), so what you can copy and what you get as a simulacrum match out in expected power.

[unseenmage]

Simulacrum might be Illusion and Shadow, but runs by its own rules. the added +% reality of shadow spells down´t interact with that in any way, so they cannot override it, as its not counted as one of the Shadow-type spells (Shadow Invocation, etc.)
...

Could you please explain the difference? I'm not well versed in Shadow spell optimization so I'm confused as to what exactly makes Simulacrum 'run by its own rules'.

Why doesn't Sim being the right kind of spell with a percent based numerical effect let it work as described in the OP?

[Psyren]

It depends on how you define "the strength of such spells" from Shadow Mastery. The abilities of a Simulacrum are not governed by the spell, but rather by the specific thing you are copying, so I would say it cannot enhance Simulacrum the way it can Shadow Conjuration etc.

[Florian]

Could you please explain the difference? I'm not well versed in Shadow spell optimization so I'm confused as to what exactly makes Simulacrum 'run by its own rules'.

Why doesn't Sim being the right kind of spell with a percent based numerical effect let it work as described in the OP?

Well, ok. Shadow-type spells let you copy another spell as an Illusion, but only at a certain percentage of real "power". Optimization here is more or less about reaching the 100% "Power" mark, meaning that a Disbelieve check (Yes, it still is an Illusion) doesn't matter because the copied spell comes thru at full force.

Simulacrum works by "half" of the base creature, meaning it doesn't affect the spell, but works based on the creature.

Edit: Contrast something - A Fetchling Arcanist can reach the 100% "Power" mark with any "Greater" spell without resorting to meta-magic or other means. Still, the way Simulacrum is worded, you cannot pass the initial 50% barrier.

Edit 2: You need to copy the spells to get anything out of it.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, ok. Shadow-type spells let you copy another spell as an Illusion, but only at a certain percentage of real "power". Optimization here is more or less about reaching the 100% "Power" mark, meaning that a Disbelieve check (Yes, it still is an Illusion) doesn't matter because the copied spell comes thru at full force.

Simulacrum works by "half" of the base creature, meaning it doesn't affect the spell, but works based on the creature.

Edit: Contrast something - A Fetchling Arcanist can reach the 100% "Power" mark with any "Greater" spell without resorting to meta-magic or other means. Still, the way Simulacrum is worded, you cannot pass the initial 50% barrier.

Edit 2: You need to copy the spells to get anything out of it.

... so... you're saying that it doesn't work with the spell Simulacrum, because simulacrum is "half" the hit dice of the original rather than "50%" of the hit dice of the original? I'm not planning on duplicating the simulacrum spell. There's another ability that permits the oracle to pick up any Illusion(Shadow) spells directly.

[Psyren]

... so... you're saying that it doesn't work with the spell Simulacrum, because simulacrum is "half" the hit dice of the original rather than "50%" of the hit dice of the original? I'm not planning on duplicating the simulacrum spell. There's another ability that permits the oracle to pick up any Illusion(Shadow) spells directly.

It's that, and also the spell is not setting the strength of the clone; the original does that. If you shadow evoke a Fireball, the variable parameters of that fireball (range, damage, penetration) depend on how strong the spell is. But if you Simulacrum a mouse, you will always get a mouse, even if your spell was strong enough to give you a dragon. Thus I think the "strength of such spells" doesn't apply to Simulacrum, because the effect you get depends not on the spell, but on the thing you're copying.

[Jack_Simth]

It's that, and also the spell is not setting the strength of the clone; the original does that. If you shadow evoke a Fireball, the variable parameters of that fireball (range, damage, penetration) depend on how strong the spell is. But if you Simulacrum a mouse, you will always get a mouse, even if your spell was strong enough to give you a dragon. Thus I think the "strength of such spells" doesn't apply to Simulacrum, because the effect you get depends not on the spell, but on the thing you're copying.

I'm having trouble understanding the second half of that argument (the first half just seems... silly... because a % is just another way of expressing a fraction... would a feat that adds 20 feet to the range of a spell not function if the range of the original spell was expressed in miles?).

The fireball's range, number of damage dice, and SR penetration is based on the caster level (plus relevant feats of the caster), regardless of whether it's cast directly, via Limited Wish, Wish, Shadow Evocation, or Greater Shadow evocation. Limited Wish, Wish, Shadow Evocation, and Greater Shadow Evocation change the save DC and components (also potentially add an extra save for partial, in the case of [Greater] Shadow Evocation), but it's still Long range regardless of how you're duplicating it. It still deals Fire damage regardless of how you're duplicating it. It's still the same spread regardless of how you're duplicating it. It's still the same 10d6 cap regardless of how you're duplicating it. If you want to change those, you have to duplicate a different spell, rather than change the spell you're using to duplicate the Fireball.

How is this substantially different from duplicating a mouse via Simulacrum vs. a different creature via Simulacrum?

[unseenmage]

Hmmm, Pretend there's a True Creation-like shadow variant that makes mundane material at half Hardness.
Would it also not work with the described process because the variable being changed is part of a statblock seperate from the spell itself?
Because that seems to be what the issue is.

The Sim spell meets all the criteria, but the variables are inherited from the original subject rather than generated by the spell itself so they don't count?


If the above is the case, are inherited variables not being increased by shadow optimization a rule being referenced or a houserule being recommended?

[Florian]

... so... you're saying that it doesn't work with the spell Simulacrum, because simulacrum is "half" the hit dice of the original rather than "50%" of the hit dice of the original? I'm not planning on duplicating the simulacrum spell. There's another ability that permits the oracle to pick up any Illusion(Shadow) spells directly.

It means that shadow-type spells use the technical term "strength", followed by a percentile value, while class features and feats directly add their percentile value to that "strength".

Simulacrum, both lesser and normal, lack both, "strength" and the necessary percentile value - in this context, "half" isn't the same as "50% strength". You'll run into the same issue with other Illusion (Shadow) spells, or by using Shadow Gambit to turn regular illusions into (Shadow), they just don't gain anything by these class features or feats.

[Psyren]

How is this substantially different from duplicating a mouse via Simulacrum vs. a different creature via Simulacrum?

I view it as being different because shadow fireball is based on the strength of your fireball (a spell) while shadow mouse is based on the strength of the mouse you're copying (not a spell.) I'm not saying my interpretation is absolute by any means, but I also don't think simulacrum needs to be any stronger than it is either.

[Quarian Rex]

Another way to look at this is that the bonus only applied to the strength of the shadow illusion when it is disbelieved. Look at the wording for Shadow Conjuration...

Shadow conjurations are only one-fifth (20%) as strong as the real things, though creatures who believe the shadow conjurations to be real are affected by them at full strength. Any creature that interacts with the spell can make a Will save to recognize its true nature.

The language is similar with the other shadow type mimicry spells. The 'strength' component doesn't come into play until the spell is disbelieved. Prior to that it is just accepted as being fully real. I don't think that you, or anyone, is trying to argue that the strength bonus from Shadow Mastery (and similar effects) is supposed to apply to a spell that has not been disbelieved. That is the crux of this. Simulacrum has no save, no disbelieve component. There is no 'extra' layer of shadow for Shadow Mastery to strengthen.

Trying to apply that bonus to Simulacrum is like trying to apply it to a Shadow version of Animate Dead (that was identical to the original in all ways but just had the school changed). Both spells tend to make a lower powered creature based on an original. Neither would get extra HD from Shadow Mastery because neither is at any time less real than they were at creation, regardless of the beliefs or disbeliefs of onlookers.

Both the simulacra and the skeleton may be lesser versions of the creature used as a template, but that is exactly what they were supposed to be, nothing more and nothing less.

[unseenmage]

Conversely this is all also an arguement against Simulacrum having its 'shadow' fluff descriptor emphasized.

Which, as some are surely already aware, is my stance on the things anyway.

Its kinda nice for me personally to have these discussions reinforce a Simulacrum's real-ness somewhat.

[icefractal]

I think it would work - I don't find the distinction people are making convincing.

First off, the ability works on Illusion (Shadow) spells, which Simulacrum is. If they wanted to specify only Shadow Conjuration / Evocation, they could have, and IIRC there are other abilities that do so.

Secondly, "it only modifies /strength/, which Simulacrum doesn't have" - I don't think "strength" is used as a particular keyword in Shadow Conjuration either. There are two mentions: "as strong as" and "full strength". The rest of the (rather long) spell never uses that term again - "one fifth damage", "20% likely to occur", "one fifth the hit points". If "strength" is just normal language, then it applies to Simulacrum in an obvious way.

Third - "one half does not equal 50%". As we see above, SC uses 20% and "one fifth" interchangeably.

[Psyren]

If "strength" is just normal language, then it applies to Simulacrum in an obvious way.

The key is that it specifically modifies "spell strength." Which spell is Simulacrum duplicating?

[Quarian Rex]

Conversely this is all also an arguement against Simulacrum having its 'shadow' fluff descriptor emphasized.

Which, as some are surely already aware, is my stance on the things anyway.

Its kinda nice for me personally to have these discussions reinforce a Simulacrum's real-ness somewhat.

See, this seems to be an example of you reading way to much into the spell. It does what it says it does, nothing more and nothing less.

To use a Star Trek analogy, this is like saying that upgraded holo-emiters that let Voyager's Doctor be more 'real' do not have any effect on Lt.Commander Data, therefore Data is capable of biological procreation. No, he isn't. Getting into semantic arguments about what is real does not provide additional effects to an existing spell effect.

[unseenmage]

See, this seems to be an example of you reading way to much into the spell. It does what it says it does, nothing more and nothing less.

To use a Star Trek analogy, this is like saying that upgraded holo-emiters that let Voyager's Doctor be more 'real' do not have any effect on Lt.Commander Data, therefore Data is capable of biological procreation. No, he isn't. Getting into semantic arguments about what is real does not provide additional effects to an existing spell effect.

Your analogy has nothing to do with the RAW interpretations of Simulacrum. Especially as none of those characters very reality is ever in question. Their personhood, sure; quite often in fact. What petcentage of magical "realness" they have, no.

My apologies for not being more clear in my own statement.
What I was appreciating was the mechanical de-emphasis of the 'shadow' side of Simulacrum's 'shadow duplicate' descriptor.
I run afoul of so many non-arguements which try to emphasize that singular word in the spell description that any, even admittedly tangential, de-emphasis of it is a sort of relief.

[Jack_Simth]

The key is that it specifically modifies "spell strength." Which spell is Simulacrum duplicating?

... not quite what it says...

Shadow Mastery (Su): Whenever you cast an illusion spell from the shadow subschool, increase the strength of such spells by 1% per oracle level you have. You must be at least 7th level to choose this revelation.

No mention of spell duplication in there at all. It's just increasing the strength of such spells. Contextually, how is that not the illusion spell itself - which would be Simulacrum in this specific case?

[icefractal]

The key is that it specifically modifies "spell strength." Which spell is Simulacrum duplicating?

What? It doesn't do that.

Whenever you cast an illusion spell from the shadow subschool, increase the strength of such spells by 1% per oracle level you have.

"such spells" are illusion spells from the shadow subschool. It doesn't even mention emulated spells.

Edit: Swordsaged

[Psyren]

No mention of spell duplication in there at all. It's just increasing the strength of such spells. Contextually, how is that not the illusion spell itself - which would be Simulacrum in this specific case?

That's my point though - Simulacrum (the spell) has no strength of its own. Unlike with Shadow Conjuration or Evocation, the power of a Simulacrum's result derives entirely from the thing you're copying. You're basically trying to (in my eyes) increase a null value.

[Jack_Simth]

That's my point though - Simulacrum (the spell) has no strength of its own. Unlike with Shadow Conjuration or Evocation, the power of a Simulacrum's result derives entirely from the thing you're copying. You're basically trying to (in my eyes) increase a null value.

How is half not a strength in this context? The other spells you would expect it to affect shuffle terms around, so contextually strength is an English term rather than a keyword.

[Psyren]

How is half not a strength in this context? The other spells you would expect it to affect shuffle terms around, so contextually strength is an English term rather than a keyword.

"Half" there refers to the copy you made, not to the Simulacrum spell itself. In other words, your Simulacrum spell is at full strength (it has no other settings, no capability of being disbelieved etc) but the result of that full-strength spell is a copy with half-HD of the original and abilities to match.

If you still disagree with my reading, that's fine - we can run it differently (and amicably) at our separate tables.

[Jack_Simth]

"Half" there refers to the copy you made, not to the Simulacrum spell itself. In other words, your Simulacrum spell is at full strength (it has no other settings, no capability of being disbelieved etc) but the result of that full-strength spell is a copy with half-HD of the original and abilities to match.

Neither more nor less than does the 20% in Shadow Conjouration. The copy of Fireball you made is at 20% or 1/5th (used interchangeably in the spell description). The copy of that mouse you made is at half. It's the same usage.

If you still disagree with my reading, that's fine - we can run it differently (and amicably) at our separate tables.

This may pose a problem if we end up at the same mid+ Pathfinder table. I'm fond of Oracles.

[Psyren]

This may pose a problem if we end up at the same mid+ Pathfinder table. I'm fond of Oracles.

Unless I already know you IRL somehow, I'm guessing we won't

[Dragovon]

After looking at the spell and the ability, I would say that whether or not it works is going to be an exercise for the GM. That may or may not be RAI...because it certainly isn't crystal clear as RAW either. I think if a player wanted to go that route, I'd probably allow it...but then I don't nix very much that the players want to do unless it is actually game breaking...and given at the time you could do this...you could also be doing Greater planar binding...so...yeah...not all that game breaking in comparison.

[Florian]

After looking at the spell and the ability, I would say that whether or not it works is going to be an exercise for the GM. That may or may not be RAI...because it certainly isn't crystal clear as RAW either. I think if a player wanted to go that route, I'd probably allow it...but then I don't nix very much that the players want to do unless it is actually game breaking...and given at the time you could do this...you could also be doing Greater planar binding...so...yeah...not all that game breaking in comparison.

The "game breaking factor" in this is something entirely different. It´s pretty hard to push planar binding/ally beyond certain boundaries. When you're good at it, you can raise the HD cap by 3, I think.
Simulacrum works with a "2x CL in HD" formulae and beyond the discussion on "shadow reality", Illusion (Shadow) type spells can be really pushed hard when it comes to CL boosters, most of which you will get when you're into a Shadow Mystery Oracle. So it´s like, "Yay, you've brought a Pit Fiend, I brought a copy of Hastur, which is still a bit more impressive, even at half power"

Edit: Praise Zon-Kuthon. I'm actually looking forward to the Nidal sourcebook.

[CockroachTeaParty]

The "game breaking factor" in this is something entirely different. It´s pretty hard to push planar binding/ally beyond certain boundaries. When you're good at it, you can raise the HD cap by 3, I think.
Simulacrum works with a "2x CL in HD" formulae and beyond the discussion on "shadow reality", Illusion (Shadow) type spells can be really pushed hard when it comes to CL boosters, most of which you will get when you're into a Shadow Mystery Oracle. So it´s like, "Yay, you've brought a Pit Fiend, I brought a copy of Hastur, which is still a bit more impressive, even at half power"

Edit: Praise Zon-Kuthon. I'm actually looking forward to the Nidal sourcebook.

Not to mention a simulacrum remains under the caster's 'absolute command.' A planar binding allows for more agency and wiggle room, especially if the outsider is especially cagey.

[Psyren]

Not to mention a simulacrum remains under the caster's 'absolute command.' A planar binding allows for more agency and wiggle room, especially if the outsider is especially cagey.

This, and also - binding deals with actual outsiders, with goals/motivations/allegiances/organizations all specific to the outsider in question. Simulacra have none of those concerns, not even basic self-preservation, they just follow orders. This makes them much riper for abuse if GMs are too lenient with their abilities.