Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes

[War_lord]

Sure, but it's still a step away from FR, however minimal it is.

It's not a step away from anything, it's a multiverse book, same as Volo's, same as Xanathar's. The gnashing of teeth and wailing over something as minor as a book title, something which is decided by the marketing department, is just sad. VGTM was not an FR book, it was a D&D book.

[Arkhios]

It's not a step away from anything, it's a multiverse book, same as Volo's, same as Xanathar's. The gnashing of teeth and wailing over something as minor as a book title, something which is decided by the marketing department, is just sad. VGTM was not an FR book, it was a D&D book.

Mordenkainen is an iconic character from the World of Greyhawk, not from the Forgotten Realms, therefore it is a (definitely small) step away from Forgotten Realms "hype". Why is that so difficult to accept? Whether or not the book and its content is related to any specific setting is irrelevant on this matter.

[War_lord]

Mordenkainen is an iconic character from the World of Greyhawk, not from the Forgotten Realms, therefore it is a (definitely small) step away from Forgotten Realms "hype". Why is that so difficult to accept? Whether or not the book and its content is related to any specific setting is irrelevant on this matter.

It is relevant, because it was only ever FR hype in the mind of the Eberron mafia. Everybody else knew and accepted that it was a matter of FR being the only setting with a large number of characters that were recognizable to the general public. Throwing the most recognizable Greyhawk character in there isn't a step away from anything.

Forgotten Realms is still the moneymaker, it still sells novels and other tie in tat and so long as that remains the case, they're naturally going to focus their marketing on that, even if it doesn't reflect the actual contents of the book much.

[Regitnui]

It is relevant, because it was only ever FR hype in the mind of the Eberron mafia.

You're the only person who thinks there's "Eberron mafia". Calm down.

I actually like this idea, but I'm still iffy on how usable most of this material will be outside of FR and Planescape. Greyhawk, as has been said, is almost interchangeable with FR. But putting Mordenkainen's name on this book gives me hope that we'll see other settings later this year, in those other two books. One will probably be a classic Greyhawk adventure updated and tuned, of course, but the rumours of Keith Baker working with WotC may bear fruit after all.

[Scots Dragon]

I actually like this idea, but I'm still iffy on how usable most of this material will be outside of FR and Planescape.

I'm going to let you in on a little secret that many people outside of Forgotten Realms fans probably haven't realised but...

Very little of the current material is actually especially strongly tied to the Forgotten Realms itself. In some cases it's actively using elements of other settings that are newly added and introduced to the Realms but don't really have any major business being there, such as the highly Greyhawk-specific elements in Princes of the Apocalypse, Tales from the Yawning Portal, and Tomb of Annihilation. Not to mention that Curse of Strahd pretty explicitly doesn't even take place in the Realms to begin with.

Volo's Guide to Monsters and Xanathar's Guide to Everything at most use the Forgotten Realms as a framing device, and in some cases contradict earlier Forgotten Realms material when it comes to certain races and monsters. Or are entirely whole-cloth additions that were not originally in the Forgotten Realms. In fact, let's go through some of them.

Aasimar? A Planescape race that can appear in basically any campaign setting that features celestial creatures and planar travel. They do not explicitly appear in the Forgotten Realms prior to the campaign setting book for D&D 3.0E, and even there are explicitly called out as extremely rare. Prior to that the Realms had been a major campaign setting for around fourteen years.

Firbolgs? An old monster race that does appear in the Forgotten Realms, because it precedes most of the published Realms by way of turning up in one of the early monster books, as far back as 1983's Monster Manual II for AD&D 1E. The Forgotten Realms wouldn't be in wide publication until 1987, so... yeah. Also it should be noted that the firbolg in D&D 5E in no way resembles the earlier giants, and at most shares a name and a slight nature focus in common.

Goliaths? Those are a D&D 3E generic race that was introduced in Races of Stone and was not even mentioned as having a Forgotten Realms presence whatsoever until an entire edition later.

Kenku? Are barely described in any Forgotten Realms specific sources, and at most were given a brief paragraph describing their potential appearances in the Forgotten Realms in the Monster Manual III for D&D 3.5E, and once again barely resemble their previous incarnations.

Lizardfolk? Those have been in Dungeons & Dragons since Supplement I: Greyhawk under the name 'lizard men', and thus can be called a core monster race.

Tabaxi? Those are similarly something that's been in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons since the early days, first appearing in the Fiend Folio released in 1981.

Tritons? Those were introduced in the same supplement as the lizardfolk above and can similarly be called a core monster race.

Outside of that, the book is literally just generic monster information that's been circling around since the early ecologies in Dragon Magazine, and a bestiary of common old-edition monsters that are pretty popular but weren't included in the Monster Manual. Are you going to try and tell me that none of this material can be used in Dragonlance or Eberron? How utterly divorced from the ideas of Dungeons & Dragons do you think those settings are?

If anything, I'd have trouble fitting some of this in with the Forgotten Realms. It's obviously the case that firbolgs and goliaths as presented are entirely new and don't really fit into established Realmslore without a bit of shoehorning. The same is of course true of core races such as the Dragonborn, since those don't turn up prior to D&D 4E.


Xanathar's Guide to Everything basically has a Forgotten Realms character as a framing device at most, and he's portrayed very differently to how he is in his earlier appearances where he was a menacing and calculating mastermind, instead being more of a comedic figure.

Everything else? It's a bunch of subclasses, some random background generation, some variant rules, and a list of new spells, with the appendices including stuff like character names.

None of the subclasses or spells link to any Forgotten Realms specific concepts, and if a Forgotten Realms character being used as some minor flavour almost entirely divorced from their original context is too much of a hurdle for you, I seriously don't know what to say to that.

[Arkhios]

it was only ever FR hype in the mind of the Eberron mafia.

Whoa... That was a bit uncalled for. Are you really accusing someone (me) who you don't know for being part of an "Eberron Mafia" only because they have voiced their concern for the lack of non-FR-specific material?

It's honestly a bit troubling that so far WotC haven't acknowledged the fans of different settings apart from few sidenotes here and there. Those other settings are as much their property as FR is. Neglecting them is only doing harm to them, not benefiting them. Currently they're basically keeping all of their eggs in one basket labeled with FR.

I'm going to let you in on a little secret

-snip-

Condescending much...?

[Requilac]

I am just hoping that they actually try to detail their great old ones in this book, mainly for the use of GOOlock patrons but also so I can create some weirder BBEGs too (is anyone sick of fiends yet?). It was especially odd as a new player to discover that D&D old ones bared minimal resemblance to their Lovecraft counterparts. I know that SCAG had a page that gave a paragraph for six different old ones, but this ultimately raised more questions than they did answers. Honestly though, I want to at least have some ideas as to what my GOOlock’s patron can be. Fey are so iconic that it is quite obvious to tell what they are like and fiends are highly fleshed out in many different modules and lore, but we are kind of left in the dark scrabbling for what precisely a D&D old one is. Perhaps it makes more sense to older players but to newbs like me who started in 2014 it is very confusing.

[JackPhoenix]

Outside of that, the book is literally just generic monster information that's been circling around since the early ecologies in Dragon Magazine, and a bestiary of common old-edition monsters that are pretty popular but weren't included in the Monster Manual. Are you going to try and tell me that none of this material can be used in Dragonlance or Eberron? How utterly divorced from the ideas of Dungeons & Dragons do you think those settings are?

None of that material is usable in Dragonlance, because Dragonlance isn't using the kitchen sink approach where everything must be shoved in just because it exists. While it does have its problematic elements (kenders...), I find the restraint welcome, even though I'm not really a fan of DL.

As for Eberron, while one the things to know from 3.5 ECS is "if it exists in D&D, it has a place in Eberron" you can pretty much throw away all the fluff in Volo's and keep only the stat blocks. Goblinoids, orcs and gnolls being just the most glaring examples.

[Unoriginal]

Speaking of Eberron, Mearls talked about it in the video where they made the Tome of Foes spoiler.

Apparently, it's so far away compared to other Material Plane worlds and so difficult to reach even seasoned multi-world travelers often think it's just a myth.

[War_lord]

Whoa... That was a bit uncalled for. Are you really accusing someone (me) who you don't know for being part of an "Eberron Mafia" only because they have voiced their concern for the lack of non-FR-specific material?

It's not FR specific, Scots Dragon literally just tore down that claim.

It's honestly a bit troubling that so far WotC haven't acknowledged the fans of different settings apart from few sidenotes here and there. Those other settings are as much their property as FR is. Neglecting them is only doing harm to them, not benefiting them. Currently they're basically keeping all of their eggs in one basket labeled with FR.

Spoiler: Haven't acknowledged

Show

Mordenkainen showed up in CoS, ToA literally revolves around a scheme of Acererak's.

They've openly referenced Greyhawk several times. Is that the same as a setting book? No, but a setting book isn't likely to happen, because there's no real market for it. Eberron has been all but confirmed to be getting a book in the future. And I think that's because A. there's a sizeable number of Eberron fans who'll buy anything related to the setting and (perhaps more importantly) B. They can market it to newer fans with no prior knowledge of Eberron as something that's genuinely different to the assumed Greyhawk/FR inspired "regular" D&D.

At the end of the day there's no money to be made in releasing Dragonlance stuff, because you can't market a setting that requires knowledge of tie-in novels that are older then most of your customer base.

[Millstone85]

A Manual of the Planes would have to go into much more detail then can be fit into the fluff section of a Volo's layout book.

4e's MotP has about 110 pages of lore and 50 pages of more crunchy elements. 5e's VGtM has about 100 pages of lore and 120 pages of more crunchy elements.

Not a big difference in the lore department.

It is possible you do not regard 4e's as a proper MotP, but I was happy with it.

Now, best case scenario, the conflicts described by Mordenkainen will have something for every part of the 5e Great Wheel:
* The Blood War between devils, yugoloths and demons.
* A reintroduction of archons, guardinals, (greater?) eladrin, and their politics toward each other and the Blood War.
* The Great Modron March and how it is received in each of the Outer Planes, notably in Limbo.
* Some new general canon regarding the Dawn War and other elemental conflicts.
* Seelie and unseelie fey.
* The Raven Queen versus Orcus.

In which case it will effectively be a MotP.

[Regitnui]

I'm going to let you in on a little secret that many people outside of Forgotten Realms fans probably haven't realised but...

Very little of the current material is actually especially strongly tied to the Forgotten Realms itself.

[Sarcasm]Hey, look, FR Mafia! [/sarcasm]

The problem is not these all being setting books for FR. The problem is that FR is painted over everything. In 3.5, Greyhawk was bland enough in the core books to get out of the way. I didn't have a list of Greyhawk nationalities to choose from if I wanted to be a human. I didn't have FR lore called out in the Monster Manual. And the adventures, if you go back and read them, were set in "Generical Land", not "this is in Forgotten Realms, here, join a faction from the setting."

I don't have a problem with Forgotten Realms. What I do have is a severe irritation that comes from having to cut Forgotten Realms lore from my players' expectations when we're playing anything else. Gnolls are not (all) slavering demon-possessed locusts in every setting. Goblins and orcs aren't Evil-by-default bags of XP. The books until now could have had a lot less setting-specific material painted on them. I'd be saying that if it was Eberron as the paint. I'd be saying that if Dragonlance was the paint. Forgotten Realms just got painted on a little too thick, and I want to come up for air now.

And CoS doesn't count for much, when it begins, ends, and involves the Forgotten Realms.

Now, best case scenario, the conflicts described by Mordenkainen will have something for every part of the 5e Great Wheel.

And there are three settings that use the Great Wheel; Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and Planescape.

[Unoriginal]

Just to say, but Gnolls being demon-infused beasts and goblinoids or orcs being mostly terrible people following evil gods isn't setting specific. It's how 5e defines what a Gnoll/Goblinoid/Orc is, in general.

Changing them is what is setting specific.

[Naanomi]

And there are three settings that use the Great Wheel; Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and Planescape.

Well... and Spelljammer, Darksun, Ravenloft, some versions of Mystara, Birthright, Council of Wyrms, 2.5+ Dragonlance, Ghostwalk, Kingdoms of Kalamar... just not so tied into Planar Lore, but definitely placed in that Cosmology

For example, there are four Gods from Toril, Cerilia, Oerth, and Krynn that share a Divine Realm together in the Outlands: each confirmed by their own setting materials and the Planescape books themselves

[Knaight]

Just to say, but Gnolls being demon-infused beasts and goblinoids or orcs being mostly terrible people following evil gods isn't setting specific. It's how 5e defines what a Gnoll/Goblinoid/Orc is, in general.

Changing them is what is setting specific.

It's setting specific either way - the very inclusion of gnolls, orcs, goblins, etc. is setting specific. These aren't sufficiently generic elements that they're likely to come up in basically every fantasy setting the way that something like stats for a spear are.

D&D has always had a bunch of setting specific material. Almost every class is setting specific, with the possible exceptions for the likes of the Fighting-Man/Fighter and closer spinoffs. The vast majority of the monster manual has always been setting specific, with the exception of the occasional entry for bandits or the like. D&D has always had a setting, it's just usually been a setting by implication - although even there the planar stuff is much more defined and a very specific setting element.

[Tanarii]

Mordenkainen is an iconic character from the World of Greyhawk, not from the Forgotten Realms, therefore it is a (definitely small) step away from Forgotten Realms "hype". Why is that so difficult to accept? Whether or not the book and its content is related to any specific setting is irrelevant on this matter.

Because that kind of thinking seems seems back to front. So long as the book and its content is not related to any specific setting, the name of the title containing a specific character is irrelevant. As well as totally unimportant.

[Arkhios]

Because that kind of thinking seems seems back to front. So long as the book and its content is not related to any specific setting, the name of the title containing a specific character is irrelevant. As well as totally unimportant.

The name of the book implies connection to Greyhawk, whether you like it or not.

[baticeer]

And CoS doesn't count for much, when it begins, ends, and involves the Forgotten Realms.

... are you serious? CoS has literally a page and a half of an optional adventure hook that you can use to get the characters into Ravenloft if they start off in the FR. If that’s too much FR for you, that’s okay. But to suggest it’s enough to make the book “not count” as a non-FR adventure is absurd.

If anything CoS has more Greyhawk in it than it does FR because Mordenkainen is an NPC that the characters can meet and potentially ally with.

[Tanarii]

The name of the book implies connection to Greyhawk, whether you like it or not.

I can see you're going to go to the wall for anything related to your "too much WotC focus on FR" philosophy.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The name of the book implies connection to Greyhawk, whether you like it or not.

I mean, I suspect that a significant fraction of players wouldn't know who "Mordenkainen" is other than "that guy whose name is on a bunch of spells." Xanathar? Volo? I didn't know who those guys were without google, and I practically live on D&D forums.

[Millstone85]

And there are three settings that use the Great Wheel; Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and Planescape.

Well... and Spelljammer, Darksun, Ravenloft, some versions of Mystara, Birthright, Council of Wyrms, 2.5+ Dragonlance, Ghostwalk, Kingdoms of Kalamar... just not so tied into Planar Lore, but definitely placed in that Cosmology

It could also be said that the like of Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk are part of Spelljammer, and then Spelljammer and Ravenloft are part of Planescape.

In this tweet, Jeremy Crawford called Planescape the "metasetting" of this edition, so I believe the idea is very much to assimilate Eberron, Dark Sun and more into this one canvas.

Speaking of Eberron, Mearls talked about it in the video where they made the Tome of Foes spoiler.

Apparently, it's so far away compared to other Material Plane worlds and so difficult to reach even seasoned multi-world travelers often think it's just a myth.

Which is a way to include it with the rest. It is remote, and maybe cut away by both astral and phlogistic storms, but it is there.

[Arkhios]

I mean, I suspect that a significant fraction of players wouldn't know who "Mordenkainen" is other than "that guy whose name is on a bunch of spells." Xanathar? Volo? I didn't know who those guys were without google, and I practically live on D&D forums.

Probably so. Still, I'd expect that the design & development team would know who they're referring to and why, instead of just "throwing random names around just because a bunch of spells are named after them".

[Naanomi]

In this tweet, Jeremy Crawford called Planescape the "metasetting" of this edition, so I believe the idea is very much to assimilate Eberron, Dark Sun and more into this one canvas

Darksun has been for a long time. The Grey was created to explain the cosmological differences; there are several prominent Darksun NPCs in Planescape; and there is an entire adventure path dealing with a crashed Gith Spelljammer on Athas

[johnbragg]

I mean, I suspect that a significant fraction of players wouldn't know who "Mordenkainen" is other than "that guy whose name is on a bunch of spells." Xanathar? Volo? I didn't know who those guys were without google, and I practically live on D&D forums.

Right. With 5E, WOTC is focusing on the Forgotten Realms as their generic setting. Which is fine with them and with me, because FR is a pretty generic fantasy setting. You can ignore the HArpers and Zhentarim and run your game.

Given the rate at which they (aren't) producing splatbooks, I don't expect a Greyhawk-specific book or a Dragonlance book (much less Mystara or Nentir Vale) for a good long time.

Eberron will happen for a few reasons.
1. There's a sizable Eberron fan base so the book will sell.
2. Keith Baker is alive and well and on good terms with WOTC
3. Eberron is different enough from the generic-fantasy setting that an Eberron book adds value, even if you're not going to run a campaign in Eberron. There's plenty of stuff to plunder for your setting--you get 4 new-to-5E player races, spells, rules for magewrights, artificers, Eberron-specific monsters and/or monster variants.

Planescape might happen, someday. Or it might not--if Starfinder flops, then Hasbro probably says there's no market for D&D-in-space. Or if Starfinder doesn't flop, then maybe Hasbro says the market niche is already filled.

[Millstone85]

Darksun has been for a long time. The Grey was created to explain the cosmological differences; there are several prominent Darksun NPCs in Planescape; and there is an entire adventure path dealing with a crashed Gith Spelljammer on Athas

Ah yes, it was in your list. My bad.

Planescape might happen, someday. Or it might not--if Starfinder flops, then Hasbro probably says there's no market for D&D-in-space. Or if Starfinder doesn't flop, then maybe Hasbro says the market niche is already filled.

I think you mean Spelljammer. And... sound logic, sadly.

[Scots Dragon]

[Sarcasm]Hey, look, FR Mafia! [/sarcasm]

The problem is not these all being setting books for FR. The problem is that FR is painted over everything. In 3.5, Greyhawk was bland enough in the core books to get out of the way. I didn't have a list of Greyhawk nationalities to choose from if I wanted to be a human. I didn't have FR lore called out in the Monster Manual. And the adventures, if you go back and read them, were set in "Generical Land", not "this is in Forgotten Realms, here, join a faction from the setting."

I don't have a problem with Forgotten Realms. What I do have is a severe irritation that comes from having to cut Forgotten Realms lore from my players' expectations when we're playing anything else. Gnolls are not (all) slavering demon-possessed locusts in every setting. Goblins and orcs aren't Evil-by-default bags of XP. The books until now could have had a lot less setting-specific material painted on them. I'd be saying that if it was Eberron as the paint. I'd be saying that if Dragonlance was the paint. Forgotten Realms just got painted on a little too thick, and I want to come up for air now.

You do know that the whole always-evil demonic gnolls thing was introduced specifically for D&D 5E and has absolutely nothing to do with the Forgotten Realms, right? Like, I feel that's something that should probably be widely known as a recent retcon.

Also there's literally no Forgotten Realms specific lore in the Monster Manual. None. You might think there is, but basically everything there originated in the 'generic Dungeons & Dragons lore' of older editions.

[RazDelacroix]

First of all, I cannot wait for Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes to be released so I may judge the book on it's own merits and use them to my discretion at the table.

Second of all... Eberron Mafia... Hehehe, first time hearing that and now for fun I have to make more factions...

• Faerun Gang
• Eberron Mafia
• Mystara Legitimate Business Association
• Rokugan Yakuza
• Oerth Punks
• Athas Slumlords
• Spelljammer Pirates
• Krynn Censorship Bureau
• Ghostwalk Spooks
• Kalamar... Does anyone know anyone from Kalamar?
• Ravenloft Asylum Personnel
• Planescape Philosophy Club!

[Tanarii]

[*]Mystara Legitimate Business Association

Not sure if that's scarier as a merchant house out of Darokin, or the name for a bunch of Minrothad Pirates.

[Vaz]

I'm interested for new Duergar stuff, running Out of the Abyss for my players.

[Regitnui]

... are you serious? CoS has literally a page and a half of an optional adventure hook that you can use to get the characters into Ravenloft if they start off in the FR.

Apologies. I've apparently been steered wrong there... Sorry. So there's a non-FR adventure.

It could also be said that the like of Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk are part of Spelljammer, and then Spelljammer and Ravenloft are part of Planescape.

In this tweet, Jeremy Crawford called Planescape the "metasetting" of this edition, so I believe the idea is very much to assimilate Eberron, Dark Sun and more into this one canvas.

If they wanted Planescape to be the baseline, why do we have FR in the Player's Handbook? That just ticked me off. They could have done the "cop-out" option of "you're all humans, you know what sort of names humans get". They did it in 3e.

Again, I'd like to reiterate that I'm not against the Forgotten Realms. I'm against the setting being overused, and, the only one we're "officially" allowed to homebrew for other than Ravenloft. Which I have no interest in or use for.

Which is a way to include it with the rest. It is remote, and maybe cut away by both astral and phlogistic storms, but it is there.

Like I said, Eberron would be worse off if it's forcefully integrated into the greater cosmology. Have it as this, a place locked off or difficult to get to, and I'll be happy. No "spelljammer dropped on Khorvaire" or "Lolth sticking her spidery head in" questlines. DDO has given me low expectations of WotC's capacity for keeping a setting's integrity solid.

You do know that the whole always-evil demonic gnolls thing was introduced specifically for D&D 5E and has absolutely nothing to do with the Forgotten Realms, right? Like, I feel that's something that should probably be widely known as a recent retcon.

Also there's literally no Forgotten Realms specific lore in the Monster Manual. None. You might think there is, but basically everything there originated in the 'generic Dungeons & Dragons lore' of older editions.

No, I evidently don't. What were gnolls before 5e? *Forgotten Realms Wiki* Raiding, vicious, brutal slavers who performed demonic rituals and blood offerings. With a side note of those who aren't that bad. OK. Retconned from brutal scavengers to brutal, near-demonic scavengers.

No Forgotten Realms lore? So Gruumsh, King Obould Many-Arrows, the Demonweb Pits, Kuo-Toa's Blibdoolpoolp, Maglubiyet, the Ordning, Demogorgon, Lolth and the drow culture, elves using blink dogs to hunt displacer beasts, all of the demon lords and archdevils... None of that has anything to do with Forgotten Realms, right? It's all only Greyhawk lore, or Planescape. Nothing to do with Forgotten Realms here.

Forgotten Realms has been thick on the ground from Day One of 5e. We've seen little of any other setting. The classic Greyhawk adventures were updated to FR. All I'm saying is that I'd like to see a setting that builds onto D&D. Planescape is a step in the right direction. I support that. I also support the possibility of shucking off Forgotten Realms for the less intrusive Greyhawk (they've done Greyhawk-as-default successfully before and it worked wonders for a blank slate).