TO - Incorporating Sims of Sims into the Gameworld

[unseenmage]

How much does the application of making Simulacrums of Simulacrums being allowed change a theoretical 'All RAW Allowed' gameworld?

For those unfamiliar, as Simulacrum are the product of an Instantaneous duration magic they are not Dispellable and are theoretically real enough to have Simulacrum made of them.

[flappeercraft]

I would think that not very much. What exactly would be the point of making a simulacrum of a Simulacrum after all whenm you can make a simulacrum of the real deal. Also simulacrum loses utility in TO due to Ice Assassin and an Ice Assassin of an Ice Assassin would be exactly the same as the original.

[unseenmage]

Well, a Sim of a Sim is cheaper for one.

[Florian]

How much does the application of making Simulacrums of Simulacrums being allowed change a theoretical 'All RAW Allowed' gameworld?

It would be very weird, considering that they'd only drop in HD (so also skills and feats) but can potentially keep any special abilities and qualities.
Overall, I think that would open up a very new kind of slave market. Why have a healing potion at home when you can simply store a 1HD copy of an angel, such things.

[unseenmage]

It would be very weird, considering that they'd only drop in HD (so also skills and feats) but can potentially keep any special abilities and qualities.
Overall, I think that would open up a very new kind of slave market. Why have a healing potion at home when you can simply store a 1HD copy of an angel, such things.

The cost of creating one woukd still be based on a high level spell though so that could still limit their availability.

[Vaz]

The cost of creating one woukd still be based on a high level spell though so that could still limit their availability.

TO has infinite spell slots and infinite money due to self resetting traps. What limit?

[The Glyphstone]

I was expecting this thread to be about a TO grade caster treating the game world like they were playing 'The Sims'. I am disappointed.

[Florian]

I was expecting this thread to be about a TO grade caster treating the game world like they were playing 'The Sims'. I am disappointed.

Don't be. What is an 1HD sim of a Pit Fiend, other than a more glorified house wife?

[Cosi]

I would think that not very much. What exactly would be the point of making a simulacrum of a Simulacrum after all whenm you can make a simulacrum of the real deal. Also simulacrum loses utility in TO due to Ice Assassin and an Ice Assassin of an Ice Assassin would be exactly the same as the original.

Pretty much agree. I don't even understand how this is useful. Creating a simulacrum of a simulacrum is a worse deal than just creating a new simulacrum 99% of the time, particularly because its trivial to get infinite and/or free castings of simulacrum (for example, a 14th level caster with Improved Familiar (Mirror Mephit) can have is familiar create copies of him that have their own Mirror Mephit familiars). Also, even in core, infinite planar binding is probability better than recursive simularum creation.

[Florian]

Pretty much agree. I don't even understand how this is useful. Creating a simulacrum of a simulacrum is a worse deal than just creating a new simulacrum 99% of the time, particularly because its trivial to get infinite and/or free castings of simulacrum (for example, a 14th level caster with Improved Familiar (Mirror Mephit) can have is familiar create copies of him that have their own Mirror Mephit familiars). Also, even in core, infinite planar binding is probability better than recursive simularum creation.

Keep in mind that this whole discussion started with a simulacrum of Hastur, which uses PF Mythic rules.

[Psyren]

How much does the application of making Simulacrums of Simulacrums being allowed change a theoretical 'All RAW Allowed' gameworld?

For those unfamiliar, as Simulacrum are the product of an Instantaneous duration magic they are not Dispellable and are theoretically real enough to have Simulacrum made of them.

By this logic anything could exist though. Custom monsters are not dispellable and so theoretically real enough to exist/be duplicated. Custom spells that instantaneously create custom creatures could theoretically exist too. But to actually duplicate those things, the GM has to make them first, because there is otherwise no entry for them in a rulebook to start with.

I was expecting this thread to be about a TO grade caster treating the game world like they were playing 'The Sims'. I am disappointed.

You and me both

[Cosi]

Keep in mind that this whole discussion started with a simulacrum of Hastur, which uses PF Mythic rules.

For those of us who aren't sure why that matters, could you explain why that matters? Are things built with the PF Mythic rules somehow protected against being copied?

By this logic anything could exist though. Custom monsters are not dispellable and so theoretically real enough to exist/be duplicated. Custom spells that instantaneously create custom creatures could theoretically exist too. But to actually duplicate those things, the GM has to make them first, because there is otherwise no entry for them in a rulebook to start with.

This is a stupid argument. He's not saying "this thing might exist, therefore simulacra of it". He's saying "if you had a simulacrum, couldn't you copy it?". And you probably could, but why would you need to?

[The Glyphstone]

Don't be. What is an 1HD sim of a Pit Fiend, other than a more glorified house wife?

You and me both

The King won't grant me a title of nobility? Time to seal him up in his bathroom with a Wall of Stone and watch him starve to death.

[Psyren]

The King won't grant me a title of nobility? Time to seal him up in his bathroom with a Wall of Stone and watch him starve to death.

*builds quintessence pool*
*deletes ladder*

[unseenmage]

The only utility I can think of for this is in reduced price for things that price based on HD.
Effigy comes to mind, of course, but they lose most of the superpowers one would want from a Sim.

CR too, though only PF has an even remotely codified CR recalculation system.

[One Step Two]

I thought this was related to The Sims as well, but the overall idea has me intrigued.

As a GM it would be interesting, depending on the HD of the creature being used to stage fights with opponents with less HP but similar combat abilities. Using the Pit Fiend as an example, it has an impressive stat line, and even dropping a few ability points for less HD, it's still quite a scary opponent. It still has it's nasty poison, disease and SLA's, and has a fairly decent attack routine as long as you make it's single feat multiattack.
Throwing a 1 HD Pit fiend at your players at level 10 will cause them some true fear, followed by mild confusion, especially if it dies to one round of combat (41 damage should drop it to -10, DR and all), but it will also give them a preview of what is to come.

[Florian]

For those of us who aren't sure why that matters, could you explain why that matters? Are things built with the PF Mythic rules somehow protected against being copied?

You know the basic difference between Epic and Mythic rules. Epic worked as a continuation of existing class or HD (ex: Wizard 34), Mythic works like Gestalt by giving you a parallel class (ex: Cleric 12//Hierophant 2). The problematic part is that some creatures just come with a generic Mythic Rank and the associated abilities and rules as part of their type or sub-type. That's a thing that's not altered (or even touched upon at all) when it comes to the Simulacrum spell or certain class abilities (It also shows up with shadow-type spells (Shadow Evocation and such) and with Mythic version of spells). So going by RAW only, even a 1HD Hastur would keep a full Mythic Rank of 8 and everything associated with it, like being fully immortal.

[Psyren]

The only utility I can think of for this is in reduced price for things that price based on HD.

Actually, the main utility is being able to copy things that are normally too powerful for a given caster to copy. This is especially relevant in PF because lesser simulacrum exists; even in a copy that strips out all the magic abilities and control, you could still use this technique to copy a copy of a copy all the way up to something like a Great Old One or an archdevil, throw it in a room with your enemies and rely on any powerful Ex or Na abilities it possesses. Take Cthulhu for example - would a lesser simulacrum of a simulacrum of Cthulhu get his Immortality (Ex), his Tentacles (Ex), his Cleaving Claws (Ex), his Non-Euclidean (Ex), his Trample (Ex) and his Compression (Ex)? Does it keep all his natural attacks? His size? What about his feats? And so on.

This is obviously an extreme example because it's a Mythic creature (which ASDM would forbid outright) but there are non-mythic monsters like dragons or the core Tarrasque that might present such problems too.

[unseenmage]

Actually, the main utility is being able to copy things that are normally too powerful for a given caster to copy. This is especially relevant in PF because lesser simulacrum exists; even in a copy that strips out all the magic abilities and control, you could still use this technique to copy a copy of a copy all the way up to something like a Great Old One or an archdevil, throw it in a room with your enemies and rely on any powerful Ex or Na abilities it possesses. Take Cthulhu for example - would a lesser simulacrum of a simulacrum of Cthulhu get his Immortality (Ex), his Tentacles (Ex), his Cleaving Claws (Ex), his Non-Euclidean (Ex), his Trample (Ex) and his Compression (Ex)? Does it keep all his natural attacks? His size? What about his feats? And so on.

This is obviously an extreme example because it's a Mythic creature (which ASDM would forbid outright) but there are non-mythic monsters like dragons or the core Tarrasque that might present such problems too.

True, but that isn't a new problem. Caster level cheese or no the base Simulacrum spell already grants access to overly powerful minions regardless at what level one utilizes it.

Especially with a permissive magic mart. Buying a scroll of Sim of an inappropriately strong minion is doable fairly early by WBL IIRC.

[Psyren]

True, but that isn't a new problem. Caster level cheese or no the base Simulacrum spell already grants access to overly powerful minions regardless at what level one utilizes it.

Especially with a permissive magic mart. Buying a scroll of Sim of an inappropriately strong minion is doable fairly early by WBL IIRC.

Being able to pull it off at level 7 is new I'd say. And banning magic mart is a lot easier/less capricious at most tables than pre-emptively auditing every first-party spell a player gets just from their class. (Though I suppose banning simulacrum would be easiest of all.)

[Cosi]

You know the basic difference between Epic and Mythic rules. Epic worked as a continuation of existing class or HD (ex: Wizard 34), Mythic works like Gestalt by giving you a parallel class (ex: Cleric 12//Hierophant 2). The problematic part is that some creatures just come with a generic Mythic Rank and the associated abilities and rules as part of their type or sub-type. That's a thing that's not altered (or even touched upon at all) when it comes to the Simulacrum spell or certain class abilities (It also shows up with shadow-type spells (Shadow Evocation and such) and with Mythic version of spells). So going by RAW only, even a 1HD Hastur would keep a full Mythic Rank of 8 and everything associated with it, like being fully immortal.

How is that different from just templates? I mean, it's a bigger gain I guess, but it's not a new problem. Or even just the fact that you arguably shouldn't get all the abilities when you copy a thing (because monster progressions notionally exist for everything), but there's no real way of determining if "half an Efreet" can still grant wishes.