Masterwork - what's worth it?

[ve4grm]

Masterwork armour of each type will either give bonus AC, or another minor bonus to a NAD (or resistance, for plate).

So what's worth it?

Is it worth taking Titanscale (12 AC, 2 Fort) over Elderscale (13 AC)? Probably?

How about Tarrasque Plate (12 AC, Resist 5 all) over Godplate (14 AC)?

Is it worth upgrading a fighter from scale to plate for Resist instead of a Fort bonus? Or just for the AC boost?

I'd like some opinions.

[DragonBaneDM]

As a fighter you have pretty decent AC, but going into plate kind of pushes you into the "If the monster isn't rolling super high, it's just straight up not hitting my AC". It's going to be a big old boost, and I think it's worth the feat.

You can probably still have a high enough Fort by picking up Superior Fortitude/Defenses, which as a Defender you probably want. And you're going to get your AC attacked a lot more than your Fortitude.

Resist 5 on a Level 1 Cleric daily is sometimes seen as good enough to keep through Paragon. Resist is sweet, I think you'll use it well.

[ve4grm]

Fighter was just the one example. I'm actually curious about all the armour types. When is it worth upgrading from leather to hide? Chain to scale?

Scale to plate is only one point of AC, at the cost of a feat and investment in both strength and con, so I personally feel the deciding factor is any other bonuses you get, rather than the single AC?

[Lanaya]

The resist all armour isn't good. It only kicks in at super high levels, at which point the resist it grants isn't meaningful any more relative to monster damage (unless your DM really, really likes minions, but even then there are far better ways for a high epic character to handle those). By comparison, keeping your defences scaled properly to your level is vital for a defender, and always remains statistically relevant.

[Yakk]

The resist all armor is only good with some exploits, like that paladin trick (maybe epic destiny?) where you boost all resists you gain by some reasonably large amounts. You convert 3 resist all small into resist all medium.

Even then it isn't game breaking.

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Even at epic levels, half of attacks tend to target AC. A typical value for AC is "1 of every other defence"; ie +1 AC is worth about as much as +1 Ref *and* Will *and* Fort.

At that rate of conversion, no masterwork armor boosting Fort is worth it.

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There are some exceptions. Getting +2 fort when you are a brawler who forces pinned foes to roll skills against *your* fort, for example, can be reasonably strong. Throw in a feyslaughter axe, and you have a foe prone, held, immobalized, unable to teleport, and only able to escape if they roll a Acrobatics or Athletics check against your insanely high Fortitude (or force you away).

[darkdragoon]

There are generally enough alternate sources of getting resist.

[Wasteomana]

It is worth noting that there are some new 'updated' masterwork armors that are just better. Finemail is a good example of this over Chainmail at +2. But, yeah, other than that it is mostly up to personal choice and what defenses you think you will need.

[ve4grm]

The resist all armor is only good with some exploits, like that paladin trick (maybe epic destiny?) where you boost all resists you gain by some reasonably large amounts. You convert 3 resist all small into resist all medium.

Even then it isn't game breaking.

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Even at epic levels, half of attacks tend to target AC. A typical value for AC is "1 of every other defence"; ie +1 AC is worth about as much as +1 Ref *and* Will *and* Fort.

At that rate of conversion, no masterwork armor boosting Fort is worth it.

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There are some exceptions. Getting +2 fort when you are a brawler who forces pinned foes to roll skills against *your* fort, for example, can be reasonably strong. Throw in a feyslaughter axe, and you have a foe prone, held, immobalized, unable to teleport, and only able to escape if they roll a Acrobatics or Athletics check against your insanely high Fortitude (or force you away).

Even not really worth it if it's 2 NAD to 1 AC? What about Chain, where you gain Will instead of Fort?

And what's worth the feat to upgrade?

• Cloth to Leather is clearly worth it, for +2 AC and no drawbacks. Unarmored Agility is roughly equivalent?
• Is it worth upgrading from Leather to Hide for +1 AC and -1 skill check? If you can get Second Skin it might be?
• Hide to Chain is light to heavy, so clear reasons to upgrade or not.
• Chain to Scale seems worth it, with +1 AC, no skill penalty, and a spec feat that lets you move faster.
• Scale to Plate is +1 AC, -2 skill checks, and a worse Spec feat. Is it worth it?

[Lanaya]

• Cloth to Leather is clearly worth it, for +2 AC and no drawbacks. Unarmored Agility is roughly equivalent?

I would very rarely bother spending a feat on either leather proficiency or unarmoured agility. If you're a defender you already have access to proper armour, if you're not then +2 AC isn't generally worth a feat slot. Not that +2 AC is bad or anything, but there's a huge number of really, really good feats out there and an AC bonus on a character who isn't about their defences is only a medium feat. Based on the same logic, I would basically never say it's worth it to spend a feat on any other armour proficiencies, since even if you are a defender who does care a lot about their defences, upgrading proficiencies is generally only worth +1 to AC which doesn't at all justify a precious feat slot.

[Yakk]

I'd consider trading 1 AC for +1 to all NAD.

Epic X grants +4 NAD for 1 feat. I find those marginal feats for specialist builds.

Improved Defences is +9 total NAD for 1 feat. Sadly overlaps with Sup Will, which is a must have just for the start of turn save. So it is +6 NAD on the margin.

The +2 AC +6 total NAD swordmage feat beats imp defences (+4 NAD +2 AC with Sup Will overlap). That is a good feat to take.

You get 18-19 feats. Don't waste any. If you boost the feats you pick from +4% character power per feat to +10% you go from +100% power from feats to +500% power from feats. And that is a night and day difference.

(As an example of an unsexy feat that grants +10%, weapon focus when your per-hit damage is 30 is about 10% power. +1 AC when half attacks target AC is about 5%. +2 NAD and +2 AC is 20% (even tho defensive, that is too good to skip). Ask yourself "does this feat make me last 10% longer? Make me defeat foes 10% faster?")

As a general rule, unless you can *force* enemies to target you, overoptimizing defence is a bad plan. Both because catch-22 is easier and because even if you win by taking zero damage, your "prize" is a long boring combat. Yay.

And dead enemies don't attack. That is a better defence. Or find a way to break their target lock on you; interrupt their attack with a slide based counter attack and make their attack fizzle. Or simply punish their attack on you so hard they die before you care.

[ve4grm]

The +2 AC +6 total NAD swordmage feat beats imp defences (+4 NAD +2 AC with Sup Will overlap). That is a good feat to take.

What feat is that?

Ok, how about a different scenario. Let's say you're a Warlord or melee Cleric or Ardent, who wants to lean into being an off-tank. You grab a theme and multiclass feat that allow you to mark on occasion. What would be worth it for AC boosts then?

[Yakk]

One of the swordmage warding feats. It grants a +1 feat bonus to all defences at level 11 increasing to +2 at level 21.

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You are a cleric who wants to off tank? Then get battle cleric's lore feature. You are now in scale and have a shield bonus to AC without a shield.

Then get a Rhythm Blade +1 for your offhand.

At level 30 with MW scale you have 47 AC, which is level+17.
At level 1 you would have level+19 AC.

Now get improved defences and superior will, a +6 necklace.

If you have 18+10 wisdom and 16+10 str or con and 12+2 dex, your defences are:

47 AC (Level+17, good)
42 Fort (Level+12, typical)
37 Reflex (Level+7, poor)
44 Will (Level+14, good)

crappy reflex, but without extreme investment you tend to have one bad NAD at level 30.

Total marginal cost: 2 feats, one class feature, one-handed weapon instead of two-handed weapon.

Next up defensive wise would be buying "Epic Will" type feats (+4 untyped bonus to a NAD). After 3 you'd be +16/+11/+18, which are very good NADs.

If that isn't enough for you, MC fighter for access to shield feats and apply your Shield bonus to your Fort/Ref/Will for +3 per feat, or burn feats on +1 AC. But this is almost certainly over investing in defence.