Predictions for Star Wars Episode 9

[Devonix]

That's a purpose that deserves to be ruined, if you ask me. Granted, I don't really want Snoke back either, but he'd still be better than giving Kylo full-blown main antagonist status. At least Snoke only looked like an idiot in how he died, in contrast to Kylo, who is just an incompetent failure pretty well constantly.

That's kinda what I love about Kylo. He's this kid with so much power, but he lets all of his anger get in the way of letting him do anything with it. And his relationship with Hux is just so damn interesting.

[Scowling Dragon]

That's kinda what I love about Kylo. He's this kid with so much power, but he lets all of his anger get in the way of letting him do anything with it. And his relationship with Hux is just so damn interesting.

A threatening antagonist not make that does.

I love Skeletor as well as the next man, but I will always say that the Fire Nation led by the Ruthless and seemingly unstoppable fire lord is way more intimidating them him.

[Metahuman1]

A threatening antagonist not make that does.

I love Skeletor as well as the next man, but I will always say that the Fire Nation led by the Ruthless and seemingly unstoppable fire lord is way more intimidating them him.

Precisely. Hell, we've seen CHILDRENS SHOWS give us more complex and/or threatening villains then Ben Solo.


Just off the top of my head,


Magneto form the 90's X-men.

Mr. Freeze, The Joker, Harley Quinn, Two Face, Ra's Al Ghoul and Bane from Batman: The Animated Series and the DCAU. Cadmus I'd say also qualifies for this.

The Lich from Adventure Time.

Amon, Kuveria, The Firelord and Zeheer from The Avatar The Last Airbender/The Legend of Korra Franchise.

Xanato's, Demona and McBeth from Gargoyals.

The Reach and The Light from Young Justice.

Slade and Trigon from the 05 Teen Titans series.



Everyone of them comes off as more intimidating, effective and/or Interesting then Ben Solo at his best. Some of them do so consistently over fairly large chunks of screen time spread over one or multiple seasons. This is a colossal failure on the ST's part, and it makes trying to promote him to main villain in this movie all the more damning.


About the only way there going to do something interesting with Ben is if he dies because Hux stabs him in the back successfully, and the Knights of Ren bow to him because he's show he's vastly more competent then we've been lead to believe in Episodes 7 and 8. And when the most interesting thing that can happen is you getting back stabbed to try and salvage a more interesting villain in someone else, you are a failure as a villain.

[Dacia Brabant]

Indeed. As I said in the Episode VIII thread, the biggest problem among oh-so-many was that it ended with nary a meaningful antagonist in sight. So Kylo Ren just slaughtered his master and took over, great!... and then promptly gets rejected by the girl he did it for, and finally gets clowned bad in front of his troops. The end.

Since we're talking cartoon villains, I swear at this point having Ren in charge of the First Order is like Starscream leading the Decepticons: something that should only last about five minutes until Galvatron shows up and kicks his ass. Only there is no Galvatron in this story, hells there isn't even an Astrotrain. There's just an emo kid with a lightsaber and his only "friend," the reject from a BNP rally. I mean really, they'd be better off with King Hippo and Eggplant Wizard! They'd still get beet, but at least it would lettuce have a few laughs first.

[Devonix]

Indeed. As I said in the Episode VIII thread, the biggest problem among oh-so-many was that it ended with nary a meaningful antagonist in sight. So Kylo Ren just slaughtered his master and took over, great!... and then promptly gets rejected by the girl he did it for, and finally gets clowned bad in front of his troops. The end.

Since we're talking cartoon villains, I swear at this point having Ren in charge of the First Order is like Starscream leading the Decepticons: something that should only last about five minutes until Galvatron shows up and kicks his ass. Only there is no Galvatron in this story, hells there isn't even an Astrotrain. There's just an emo kid with a lightsaber and his only "friend," the reject from a BNP rally. I mean really, they'd be better off with King Hippo and Eggplant Wizard! They'd still get beet, but at least it would lettuce have a few laughs first.

Someone doesn't read transformers. I say this because Starscream being fully in charge is the best thing that has ever happened to the character.

[Jayngfet]

The difference is that there are a lot of other named decepticons who can carry an episode. With Starscream in charge you can do something with say, Soundwave. Or Scorponok. There's a lot of characters on that roster and a lot of air time to give them.

With the sequel trilogy you have Ren, Hux who is explicitly a tool and a coward, and maybe Phasma who is essentially a joke at this point. It's too late to establish a new Boba Fett character. The Knights of Ren are MIA after being established that they exist. There's no one the audience can latch onto in the FO's roster.

[Zevox]

That's kinda what I love about Kylo. He's this kid with so much power, but he lets all of his anger get in the way of letting him do anything with it. And his relationship with Hux is just so damn interesting.

Yeah, can't say that I agree with any of that. That's the opposite of interesting to me - it's boring. He's supposed to be one of the main antagonists of the new trilogy - now the main one post-TLJ - and yet he doesn't even come off as a serious threat to the protagonists. He already failed to beat Rey in a lightsaber duel, and that's when she was totally untrained and he wasn't. He's already failed to use his force powers on her, when she was his captive and didn't even know she had any to resist them with. He's shown himself to be an incompetent fool who can't lead the First Order to the simplest of victories when he has the overwhelming advantage over his opponents. He seems like something out of a comedy parody, but somehow he's supposed to be taken seriously. If he's not the worst part of the sequel trilogy, it's only because of how badly they botched Luke's character in TLJ.

And Hux is just sad at this point, a pathetic toady who can't do anything because the guys with force powers will just psychically b****-slap him if he tries. Maybe under other circumstances he could be interesting, but not as long as Snoke and/or Kylo are around holding his leash.

Indeed. As I said in the Episode VIII thread, the biggest problem among oh-so-many was that it ended with nary a meaningful antagonist in sight.

100% agreed.

[tomandtish]

Precisely. Hell, we've seen CHILDRENS SHOWS give us more complex and/or threatening villains then Ben Solo.


Just off the top of my head,


Magneto form the 90's X-men.

Mr. Freeze, The Joker, Harley Quinn, Two Face, Ra's Al Ghoul and Bane from Batman: The Animated Series and the DCAU. Cadmus I'd say also qualifies for this.

The Lich from Adventure Time.

Amon, Kuveria, The Firelord and Zeheer from The Avatar The Last Airbender/The Legend of Korra Franchise.

Xanato's, Demona and McBeth from Gargoyals.

The Reach and The Light from Young Justice.

Slade and Trigon from the 05 Teen Titans series.



Everyone of them comes off as more intimidating, effective and/or Interesting then Ben Solo at his best. Some of them do so consistently over fairly large chunks of screen time spread over one or multiple seasons. This is a colossal failure on the ST's part, and it makes trying to promote him to main villain in this movie all the more damning.


About the only way there going to do something interesting with Ben is if he dies because Hux stabs him in the back successfully, and the Knights of Ren bow to him because he's show he's vastly more competent then we've been lead to believe in Episodes 7 and 8. And when the most interesting thing that can happen is you getting back stabbed to try and salvage a more interesting villain in someone else, you are a failure as a villain.

Although not a kids show, when listing more competent villians, you forgot Darph BoBo from Tripping the Rift......

[Dacia Brabant]

Someone doesn't read transformers. I say this because Starscream being fully in charge is the best thing that has ever happened to the character.

I was referring to the character voiced by the late great Chris Latta. And which comics--and which continuity--are you referring to? Not the one with the Underbase, surely, because that was dreadful.

[Devonix]

To me an idiot with more power than he knows what to do with can be just as, if not more terrifying than someone actually competent. Other people can have a plan. You can know what they're going to do. Someone like Kylo is dangerous because he's unpredictable.

As for Starscream I'm talking about the current books where Starscream has been the leader of the Cybertronian race for almost 5 years now.

Forcing Starscream away from the role of warrior and into the role of a polititian maintaining peace and structiure between Cybertron and the colony worlds now that the war between the Autobots and Decepticons is over is just wonderful to read.

The very things that were weaknesses in him in wartime are strengths he can use in peacetime.


Going back to Kylo. Because Kylo isn't Starscream in this analogy, Hux is. Kylo being in charge makes the first order more interesting. The hints of it to me go back to the reactions of the people on the ground, the soldiers and captains who have goals, who have ideals. The Ex imperials who were brought into this because they believed that they would be restoring the legitimate government, the rightful rule of the Empire. But are now trapped serving a petulant child who is unsure what he wants to do with all of this power.

Kylo being the way he is, makes everyone around him more compelling.

[Scowling Dragon]

To me an idiot with more power than he knows what to do with can be just as, if not more terrifying than someone actually competent. Other people can have a plan. You can know what they're going to do. Someone like Kylo is dangerous because he's unpredictable.

Kylo just doesn't have enough power of any sort to really be that intimidating force, that him being unpredictable makes him scarier. Hes had his ass kicked repeatedly by Rey with and without a Chest Wound, and an additional bumbling idiot to the FOs masive list of bumbling idiot leadership doesn't inspire confidence.
A Rabid Dog is unpredictable, but when I think which dog is more threatening to Rabbits Im tracking, I think the one that has had its shots.
Kefka is an example of a "Insane Danger". A character with Godlike Power who is also insane IS indeed terrifying. But Kylo isn't insane. Merely petulant and insecure.

Not saying you can't find him scary, Im just explaining why I don't find HIM scary.

[Devonix]

Kylo just doesn't have enough power of any sort to really be that intimidating force, that him being unpredictable makes him scarier. Hes had his ass kicked repeatedly by Rey with and without a Chest Wound, and an additional bumbling idiot to the FOs masive list of bumbling idiot leadership doesn't inspire confidence.
A Rabid Dog is unpredictable, but when I think which dog is more threatening to Rabbits Im tracking, I think the one that has had its shots.
Kefka is an example of a "Insane Danger". A character with Godlike Power who is also insane IS indeed terrifying. But Kylo isn't insane. Merely petulant and insecure.

Not saying you can't find him scary, Im just explaining why I don't find HIM scary.

When I say power I don't mean his force powers. I mean being in control of a large military. Palpatine and others have goals, What does Kylo want to actually do with his military. I mean I have no idea if he might just glass a planet to squeltch an uprising when he could put a govenor in place who could simply rule it properly.

Kylo didn't earn his place and so he has no idea how to rule anything. Also the fact that his subordinates don't respect him, that they are all gunning to take his place in a way that we never even had hinted at us with the Emperor. That's facinating.

Going back to the rabid dog analogy. Yes a Dog that had it's shots is more dangerous to the rabits. But the Rabbid dog is more dangerous to his own pack and to everyone else. That's what's gets my attention with him.

[Scowling Dragon]

When I say power I don't mean his force powers. I mean being in control of a large military.

And the FO as a Military has been paradoxically ridiculously overblown and ridiculously incompetent.
The FOs main superpower is lackluster and lazy worldbuilding (To explain their out their bum Fleet and Personel), not much else.
Also the Republics superpower being downright brain-dead.
God the EU was at its worst when it was explaining away utterly lazy and contrived plot points and the ST being some of the MOST contrived as such has some of the worst modern EU.

I know this will be utterly reversed next film with the FO busting out more infinite resources (Maybe the Starforge base or whatever not established or foreshadowed in anyway, makes it easy!), but so far the FO has lost MILLIONS. Of personel and planetoid tons of their ships and resources in a period LASTING ONE WEEK.

The FO is already "Unpredictable" because its stupid. Its ALREADY led by insecure weiner boys. Not sure how adding another one in any way changes their dynamics.

[Devonix]

I most certainly agree that the First Order's military has been poorly handled in terms of knowing what they have, and the staggering amount of losses they've sustained. A loss like what happened here would have crippled the Empire but we still have an entire movie left where they are supposed to be big and scary.

The whole opening crawl saying that they took over the galaxy largely made no sense. Because since it starts immediatly following the end of t he first movie, where would they have had time to take over anything.

Trust me I didn't miss that, and it pisses me off too. It's just balanced out by my desire to see the personal and character stuff. He's got military might, it's stupid that it still exists after the losses they sustained but it's facinating thinking what he'll do with it.

[Strigon]

It almost sounds like you're saying Kylo is the key to all this?

[Devonix]

To me the biggest dropped ball of Episode 8 was the scene they cut with Finn trying to convince the Stormtroopers to rebel against the first order after the ship is attacked.

You create a story where the enemy has the bulk of their soldiers comprised of kidnapped and indoctrinated child soldiers. And you have one of your main heroes be someone who escaped them.

And you never bring it up that there should be some attempt to free them? That's a missed opportunity that I hope they pick up later.

[Scowling Dragon]

Trust me I didn't miss that, and it pisses me off too. It's just balanced out by my desire to see the personal and character stuff. He's got military might, it's stupid that it still exists after the losses they sustained but it's facinating thinking what he'll do with it.

Thing is I get your point, and I understand what you mean. My problem is however we already have seen this sort of archetype done better...In Star wars...With Almost the exact same Dynamic Type idea....And it already had the same mask involved!
It was with Darth Revan, in KOTOR. Revan was a supposed Battle Genius. However his Aprentice Malack Brutal and Cruel and missed all the details however in his rage and power he ended up doing allot more Damage then Revan.

The problem is that Kylo is no Malak. Malak had more motive and Development then Kylo, and weilded the still secure Star Forge.
It was a scary thought that an Idiot like Malak would bombard 3 planets because he had the resources to do it, instead of just bombarding 1 and encouraging the other 3 to surrender like Revan would do.

------Thought Separation--------

But Kylo like the rest of he ST just sorta cartoonishly BUMBLES into everything. Everything has the reasoning and occurrence of a man slipping on a banana peel.

Luke just cartoonishly bumbles into Kylo becoming evil. Then cartoonishly this has this redculous Superman 3 domino effect of him becoming evil, burning down the temple, and Luke becoming a hermit and conveniently cut off from the force.

Kylo is also no Anakin Skywalker who ALSO had a similar Arc. We saw how spoiled Anakin was from his force powers, we see him develop into a tantrumy demanding adult until he is pretty much put through a trail by burning, and comes out armor plated.

There just isn't any Pathos to anything. Everything has the timing and story beats of a 3 Stooges Short.

[Dr.Samurai]

Indeed. As I said in the Episode VIII thread, the biggest problem among oh-so-many was that it ended with nary a meaningful antagonist in sight. So Kylo Ren just slaughtered his master and took over, great!... and then promptly gets rejected by the girl he did it for, and finally gets clowned bad in front of his troops. The end.

I would go so far as to say that there isn't really any meaningful antagonist or protagonist in sight. One of my biggest problems watching the movie is that it's difficult to root for anyone during it's runtime, and the people you do root for are being set up for failure. So...

Luke: quitter, bitter, failure, washed up, learning a lesson he learned decades ago, sitting by doing nothing while his friends die and the republic is conquered
Rey: hates Kylo but then feels sorry for him, goes to the ship to save him because it's a mirror to RotJ, gets pwned by Snoke, refuses Kylo, ends up on the salt planet to lift some rocks
Poe: gets the majority of the remaining Resistance fighters killed, leaving them at around ten soldiers
Leia: slaps a guy, allows herself to be killed, hands over command to someone else
Holdo: fails to boost the morale of her soldiers, loses power in a mutiny, enacts a failed mission and has to sacrifice herself to make up for it
Finn: accomplishes nothing in the movie
Rose: accomplishes nothing in the movie (sorry, releases a few slave horses for immediate recapture, abandons slave children)

Snoke: gets killed by his own right-hand man in the most simple and obvious way
Kylo: still conflicted after killing one parent, still not fully evil, can't seduce Rey, gets pwned in front of his army
Hux: gets pwned by Snoke in front of his men, gets pwned by Kylo in front of his own men
Phasma: less screen time than TFA, still gets pwned easily

This is the new Star Wars. Thrilling heroics that get all the good guys killed. Daring missions that fail and get more good guys killed. Heroes more concerned with saving the bad guys than helping the good guys. Heroes more concerned with wallowing in self-pity and waiting around for death, than staying true to their friends and family.

[Dacia Brabant]

As for Starscream I'm talking about the current books where Starscream has been the leader of the Cybertronian race for almost 5 years now.

Ah, OK thanks, that clears that up. I haven't read any of the comics in probably 15 years as I didn't care for the relaunch, but it sounds as if I've been missing out.

Anyway, it seems to me the root of all our disagreement with you over Episode VIII boils down to this: the story we wanted to see is something very different from the story you wanted to see, and what we all got from The Last Jedi is much closer to what you had preferred than it is to ours. That isn't to say that it's exactly what you wanted, far from it as you've made clear, but it's still within the scope of that whereas for us it's not even in the same galaxy let alone the same ballpark.

I think what we wanted above all from the ST was continuity, and not just continuity with the preceding films in terms of narrative and charactization but also of the themes and aesthetics of an established universe. I do still feel we got that with TFA--even though now it appears it was a hollow attempt--and Rogue One to an extent despite its own plot-driven divergences, but this latest movie just doesn't feel like Star Wars to me. And yet it does to you and to a lot of other fans who liked it, and I can't understand why. Maybe it would help if I better understood what it was you were wanting to see from the new movies?

I would go so far as to say that there isn't really any meaningful antagonist or protagonist in sight. One of my biggest problems watching the movie is that it's difficult to root for anyone during it's runtime, and the people you do root for are being set up for failure.

Oh absolutely, your summation is exactly how I see it. Yet compelling, or at least competent villains can rescue a story from its boring, lackluster heroes, while the reverse isn't the case.

[zimmerwald1915]

Heroes more concerned with wallowing in self-pity and waiting around for death, than staying true to their friends and family.

This is a good thing.

[Hopeless]

So what's stopping the First Order turning on them now Snoke is dead?

Seriously JJ could reveal that all that immense armada splintering into factions and fighting each other!

For all we know the Knights of Ren will team up to counter their supposed Master since he isn't that great a threat so maybe they might seek out Rey to gain her help?

What was that series about a Jedi Knight stuck behind enemy lines I think it was one of the Dark Horse comic lines set in the KOTOR era involving multiple Sith as part of a supposed family?

[Zevox]

To me an idiot with more power than he knows what to do with can be just as, if not more terrifying than someone actually competent. Other people can have a plan. You can know what they're going to do. Someone like Kylo is dangerous because he's unpredictable.

But he's not dangerous, whether he's predictable or unpredictable. He's consistently failed to be a threat almost every time he's tried. The most he's managed to do is capture Poe at the start of TFA, which as a force-user facing a single, unprepared non-force-user is utterly unimpressive. It's hard to be terrifying when your story is just one failure after another.

To me the biggest dropped ball of Episode 8 was the scene they cut with Finn trying to convince the Stormtroopers to rebel against the first order after the ship is attacked.

You create a story where the enemy has the bulk of their soldiers comprised of kidnapped and indoctrinated child soldiers. And you have one of your main heroes be someone who escaped them.

And you never bring it up that there should be some attempt to free them? That's a missed opportunity that I hope they pick up later.

I can agree with that. Finn's the only major character in the new films whose story seems to have some serious potential behind it, but they've done nothing with it for two films now. At this point though that just leaves me with no confidence that they have any intention to do anything with it, and will instead just have him keep being just along for the ride.

I would go so far as to say that there isn't really any meaningful antagonist or protagonist in sight.

Yeah, that's fair. I do think that the bigger failure by far is with the antagonists, personally, but the protagonists haven't really done much either. The only major thing they've accomplished is destroying Starkiller Base, and that wasn't even the main protagonists' doing, it was Han and Chewie sabotaging the shields and Poe and his X-Wings flying in for the kill. Otherwise, Rey's just a bland character who has gotten captured and then escaped the First Order twice, and found Luke but failed to get much training or help out of him, while Finn is potentially interesting but mostly just along for the ride in the first film and involved in a totally pointless subplot in the second, and everybody else's biggest accomplishment was just surviving TLJ despite being put in such a dire predicament that even villains as bad at what they do as the First Order looked like they should have been able to wipe them out, though most of the credit for that goes to Kylo being so easily distracted by Luke and to Chewie and the Falcon showing up to get everyone away in the nick of time.

[Devonix]

He's dangerous in the way all movie villains are dangerous. The heroes aren't in danger, because they're the heroes. He's a danger to the galaxy at large though.

[Scowling Dragon]

He's dangerous in the way all movie villains are dangerous. The heroes aren't in danger, because they're the heroes. He's a danger to the galaxy at large though.

But I listed all the ways he still underperforms even in that role in comparison to even star wars villains of the past.

[Devonix]

But I listed all the ways he still underperforms even in that role in comparison to even star wars villains of the past.

In what way? He's only been the head honcho for one film at the climax when trying to stop the heroes from escaping. Something that he had to fail at because otherwise there's no movie.

I'm talking about him doing things like sending the army off to take over or Raze a planet. Or even stuff a simple as killing off a village of people like at the beginning of Force Awakens.

[Anonymouswizard]

An incompetent buffoon with access to a military force that has little to no loyalty is much less scary, to me, than a lone but competent individual. The buffoon can do almost nothing unless his army agrees to it, and the end of TLJ heavily implies that Kylo Ren has lost control of his army. A single competent villain can make the main characters' lives hell, which as we follow the main characters will make everything seem worse.

I mean, I suppose that an incompetent villain is an interesting counterpoint to an insanely competent hero, but it doesn't make for good tension.

Uh, spoiler warning for the rest of the post, in case there's anybody on this thread who somehow hasn't seen all eight main SW films.

There is a lot of potential for good storytelling in the ST, but almost none of it is used. A lot of this is the failure for an interesting villain to appear, in many ways it's Vader that makes the Original Trilogy (although Luke is at least a slightly better protagonist than Rey). The best movie in the PT of the one where Vader appears, because Vader is a fun villain to watch even when he hasn't completely fallen, but Sidous still comes off as a competent manipulator over all three films and his chosen apprentices still provide legitimate challenges for the heroes even if pre-Vader they can be argued to be distractions to draw attention away from himself. But the ST seems unwilling to let any villain remain both competent and alive. Snoke at least had potential, and managed to be legitimately threatening, but nope, can't have a legitimate villain as the hero's opposition (and bringing Snoke back would cheapen the effect).

The Knights of Ren have promise, being the only known group of organised Force users and being dark side, but introducing them and making then the villain in E9 will be hard (although I suspect it's what will happen, where they swoop in and establish control of the FO after hearing that Snoke was removed from the picture).

[Scowling Dragon]

In what way? He's only been the head honcho for one film at the climax when trying to stop the heroes from escaping. Something that he had to fail at because otherwise there's no movie.

I'm talking about him doing things like sending the army off to take over or Raze a planet. Or even stuff a simple as killing off a village of people like at the beginning of Force Awakens.

Trust me I didn't miss that, and it pisses me off too. It's just balanced out by my desire to see the personal and character stuff. He's got military might, it's stupid that it still exists after the losses they sustained but it's facinating thinking what he'll do with it.

Thing is I get your point, and I understand what you mean. My problem is however we already have seen this sort of archetype done better...In Star wars...With Almost the exact same Dynamic Type idea....And it already had the same mask involved!
It was with Darth Revan, in KOTOR. Revan was a supposed Battle Genius. However his Aprentice Malack Brutal and Cruel and missed all the details however in his rage and power he ended up doing allot more Damage then Revan.

The problem is that Kylo is no Malak. Malak had more motive and Development then Kylo, and weilded the still secure Star Forge.
It was a scary thought that an Idiot like Malak would bombard 3 planets because he had the resources to do it, instead of just bombarding 1 and encouraging the other 3 to surrender like Revan would do.

------Thought Separation--------

But Kylo like the rest of he ST just sorta cartoonishly BUMBLES into everything. Everything has the reasoning and occurrence of a man slipping on a banana peel.

Luke just cartoonishly bumbles into Kylo becoming evil. Then cartoonishly this has this redculous Superman 3 domino effect of him becoming evil, burning down the temple, and Luke becoming a hermit and conveniently cut off from the force.

Kylo is also no Anakin Skywalker who ALSO had a similar Arc. We saw how spoiled Anakin was from his force powers, we see him develop into a tantrumy demanding adult until he is pretty much put through a trail by burning, and comes out armor plated.

There just isn't any Pathos to anything. Everything has the timing and story beats of a 3 Stooges Short.

Here is what I said before. Even when it comes to things like this Kylo Ren is a second stringer. Hes more PATHETIC then dangerous.

[Zevox]

He's dangerous in the way all movie villains are dangerous. The heroes aren't in danger, because they're the heroes. He's a danger to the galaxy at large though.

Hardly. He's so incompetent that it wouldn't be surprising for his control of the First Order to just implode on its own, with no help needed from the heroes. It won't, of course, but that's because the writers think he's actually capable of being the villain for this story, despite all evidence to the contrary, and thus won't write that as being what goes down.

Moreover, the heroes should be in danger. A villain who can't make me believe the heroes are in danger from him is not a villain worthy of the title - he's comic relief at best. Except that's not what the films are trying to do with Kylo, so instead he's just a failed attempt at a villain.

[Anonymouswizard]

Note that a story doesn't need a great villain to be great, but at that point you're looking for a strong cast of main characters that the ST lacks.

Babylon 5 very easily made disasters and charger friction into A and B plots early on. It's strongest early villain is Bester, who when first introduced does not overlap with a lot of other stories. An entire faction of villains is represented by a character who's rarely on the station. The second main villainous faction the show takes a long time to appear. But because Sinclair and Garibaldi are string characters, and the B plot focuses around other strong characters, the reappearance of a space station is an interesting plot. An entire plot is spun out of a main character's friend wanting to participate in a dangerous alien competition.

The ST doesn't have six or more main characters I'm invested in due to good writing, so when the villains fail to be threatening it gets boring. But when the Centuri Emperor collapsed the scenes of G'Kar and Londo dealing with it kept me engaged, and it fed into Londo's ongoing character arc with his political ambitions.

[Devonix]

As was said before it seems that what I and some others wanted out of the ST are what we wanted but not what some others wanted.

I wanted them to move away from the Jedi and focus more on the galaxy, On the goings on with other factions. I wanted Rey to be a nobody, and didn't want Snoke to have a big reveal.
I wanted to focus more on the inner workings and personalities of the antagonists as well as making the force more mysterious.

And I wanted them to focus on building up the new characters as opposed to simply letting the old cast carry the film.

I got what I wanted, hell I did a prediction video before seeing the movie and almost everything that I wanted in my video came true. I'm very aware that my opinions are colored by that, and if someone else isn't getting what they want I understand that too.