Episode I Phantom Menace, why do people hate it?

[Velaryon]

Thanks! I haven't seen either of those films, so wasn't sure. I don't think "healthy" is particularly necessary here, though of course exactly how those on-screen relationships are unhealthy might affect how much they count, I guess. I dunno.

[Vinyadan]

Does Hotel Chevalier count?

[McStabbington]

I don't know about romance, but the general through line for Portman's acting history is that the more involved the director, the better she performs. She can be an Academy-Award winning actress, or she can have all the charisma and talent of a cinder block; it's entirely up the director.

Given Lucas' directing tendencies, Portman may have been the worst possible casting choice for Amidala, though it's doubtful that there were many other big-name actresses in that age range who could have done much with the role in any eventuality.

[Olinser]

It was actually worse than that. 90% of the time, Lucas provides next to no direction whatsoever, because he feels that the actors are better at understanding what emotions are present in the scene, and how to convey them, than he does. That's why everyone comes across so stilted in the first film, because Ray Park would ask about emotion, and the only response he'd get back was, and I quote, "Be evil." Usually, Lucas is simply unhelpful.

In poor Hayden Christensen's case, however, Lucas did take a direct hand in directing him. Only his direction was to make it like a romantic epic from the 40's. You know, when you had to be extremely circumspect about how you portrayed your romance because of the Hays Code.

Now, in the 40's you could kind of work around it because of the natural charisma of the actors. Casablanca is a fantastic romance precisely because Ingrid Bergman had not simply off-the-charts beauty, but off-the-charts control of her facial muscles as well. She could sell "in love" with just a quiver of her voice and a tear in her eye. But in this case, not only is expecting Christensen to act as well as Ingrid Bergman asking a bit too much of an extremely new and raw actor, but then you had Lucas constantly telling him to reign it in, pull it back, second-guessing every acting choice he made in favor of being more restrained and circumspect. It's literally one of the only times I can remember Lucas ever taking a personal hand in an acting performance, and everything he's saying is "dial it back". And then, its poor Christensen who gets blamed for looking like a block of wood with a laser sword.

Now we don't have the footage from Christensen's original takes, but given their respective talent sets, I'd put money on Christensen having a better feel for what was "overacting" and what was "just right" than Lucas did.

Lucas definitely isn't that great of a director, but Christensen is simply not a very good actor. There's a reason he's had very few main roles since Star Wars and most of the few roles he's gotten have been in bad movies - where he turned in bad performances.

[Bohandas]

Phantom Menace itself is probably the best movie of the prequel trilogy. Taken alone it has few problems (other than the fact that the war droids talk among themselves deapite theoretically being puppeteered by a single computer). Look at this very thread; you're all talking about episodes 2 and 3. However, it does kind of set the other two movies up to fail by being basically a standalone and leaving the entire narrative load on the other two films

[Strigon]

Phantom Menace itself is probably the best movie of the prequel trilogy. Taken alone it has few problems (other than the fact that the war droids talk among themselves deapite theoretically being puppeteered by a single computer). Look at this very thread; you're all talking about episodes 2 and 3. However, it does kind of set the other two movies up to fail by being basically a standalone and leaving the entire narrative load on the other two films

Everyone's talking about episodes 2 and 3 because not even The Phantom Menace has five pages worth of problems to list.

[Malifice]

And those are just rebuttals to what you liked about the movie. There are plenty other issues I have, including (but not limited to) the complete lack of character growth for any character.*Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon end the same people they were at the start. Same for Anakin, even though he's introduced only halfway through the movie.

I watch that movie a hundred times and I still can't figure out who the protagonist is.

I thought it may be Obi wan, but he spent pretty much the entire second half of the movie in the Naboo spaceship.

It's not Anakin; we don't meet him until half way through the movie. We don't find out Padme is Padme until the end so it can't be her. Qui gon is simply the mentors who dies at the end, so it isn't him.

In episode 4 you are left in no doubt who the protagonist is. Luke skywalker. Ditto episode 7. Rey.

It's possible to make a great movie without a key protagonist. It's also possible to have a movie with an ensemble list of protagonists (Avengers or Justice league). But it's bloody hard to do well (Pulp fiction is probably the best example). But there really aren't that many examples.

[Malifice]

Lucas definitely isn't that great of a director, but Christensen is simply not a very good actor. There's a reason he's had very few main roles since Star Wars and most of the few roles he's gotten have been in bad movies - where he turned in bad performances.

He was really good in Life is a House. Of course he was playing a moody angsty teenager in it.

I'm prepared to give actors in Star Wars movies at fair bit of leeway. Not only do they get typecast heavily afterwards and and often struggle to find work, there were some very good actors (McGregor and Portman) in those movies.

Even Natalie Portman looked like a goose with the dialogue she was given, and having to talk to creatures on a blue screen, with George Lucas saying 'do it again; but with more emotion!'.

[Dacia Brabant]

Phantom Menace itself is probably the best movie of the prequel trilogy. Taken alone it has few problems (other than the fact that the war droids talk among themselves deapite theoretically being puppeteered by a single computer). Look at this very thread; you're all talking about episodes 2 and 3. However, it does kind of set the other two movies up to fail by being basically a standalone and leaving the entire narrative load on the other two films

That is true, and yet ANH was also a stand-alone film when it was first made back when it was just Star Wars and not Episode IV of anything. ANH had just enough setup going for it to spin out a sequel. That ESB was such a strong sequel ensured its status as a franchise.

The problem with TPM was that it was always predestined to be the start of a new series and that it had a definitively known end point, which is to say that it was a prequel. As the first in a prequel series, it needed to set up the narrative for the movies to come, and at that it failed spectacularly, leaving the entire narrative thrust to be handled in two films rather than three. Of course this would still have been salvageable, if AotC had been a strong sequel like ESB had been--and of course it wasn't.

[Velaryon]

He was really good in Life is a House. Of course he was playing a moody angsty teenager in it.

I'm prepared to give actors in Star Wars movies at fair bit of leeway. Not only do they get typecast heavily afterwards and and often struggle to find work, there were some very good actors (McGregor and Portman) in those movies.

Even Natalie Portman looked like a goose with the dialogue she was given, and having to talk to creatures on a blue screen, with George Lucas saying 'do it again; but with more emotion!'.

I'm not familiar with that movie, but the bolded part makes sense to me. Christensen's best work in the prequels comes after he falls to the Dark Side. He does anger and hate pretty darn well. If that had happened earlier in the third film (or better yet, at the end of the second), then Revenge of the Sith would have been a far stronger film.

[Metahuman1]

En, I dunno, there's a bit in the third film were Padme tells him she's expecting for the first time. Watch his face in that scene. He does a marvelous job of processing everything you'd expect, every emotion that a person should feel, and expressing it, with out even needing to speak.

[FreddyNoNose]

Going to take a guess that the vast majority of people who hate TPM is because they watched it.

haha

[Aedilred]

Phantom Menace itself is probably the best movie of the prequel trilogy. Taken alone it has few problems (other than the fact that the war droids talk among themselves deapite theoretically being puppeteered by a single computer). Look at this very thread; you're all talking about episodes 2 and 3. However, it does kind of set the other two movies up to fail by being basically a standalone and leaving the entire narrative load on the other two films

I would still say that the third is the best of the three. It has clunky moments and troubled pacing but I still think it's alright. The second veers between two (relative) extremes. When it's good, is better than the Phantom Menace. It's just that the bad moments, of whihc there are many, are so crashingly terrible that they're all anyone can remember.

The Phantom Menace, meanwhile, is so jaw-droppingly bland and forgettable for most of its length that it's difficult to isolate specific criticism, and there's only so long you can talk about its general flaws unless you're writing an academic essay. That much of the attention is focussed on the second and third, I think, is because they feel more like missed opportunities, and hence the flaws feel more significant. The Phantom Menace was a car crash from the start.

But in summation, anyway, things that are wrong with The Phantom Menace:

• There is no identifiable protagonist or antagonist
• The plot is over-complicated, boring, and badly explained
• The substance of it adds nothing to the overall story of Star Wars
• Apparently recognising the above on some level, it tries too hard to tie itself into the overall Star Wars story
• It's too long
• It writes itself into corners and has to rescue itself with obvious contrivances
• The acting is almost universally dismal
• The fight scenes are over-choreographed and unconvincing
• The CGI has dated very badly
• The entire premise of showing us Anakin as a child is wrong-headed
• Too much attention is paid to the Gungans and they are very annoying
• An uneasy sense of racist - and specifically antisemitic - caricatures

And that's just off the top of my head. It is not a good movie. I think it's worth noting too that relatively few of the criticisms above apply to the second and third (over-length and quality of the acting being the two which are easiest to sustain).

[Bohandas]

[*]An uneasy sense of racist - and specifically antisemitic - caricatures

I don't really see that. I mean yes, Watto's body is mostly nose but by the standards of Star Wars antagonists he's pretty darn low on the greed and conspiracy fronts.

[Bohandas]

[*]An uneasy sense of racist - and specifically antisemitic - caricatures

I don't really see that. I mean yes, Watto's body is mostly nose but by the standards of Star Wars antagonists he's pretty darn low on the greed and conspiracy fronts, so I don't think he actually falls into the "antisemitic stereotype" archetype. He's just a guy with a big nose.

[S@tanicoaldo]

Lucas definitely isn't that great of a director, but Christensen is simply not a very good actor. There's a reason he's had very few main roles since Star Wars and most of the few roles he's gotten have been in bad movies - where he turned in bad performances.

He's great at Shattered Glass. A must see.

[Leewei]

What didn't work:

Anakin Skywalker's immaculate conception, enormous midichlorian (stupid in their own right) count, inability to fail at anything he attempted (Marty Stu character), and poorly-defined role as the "Chosen One". Basically, Anakin was supposed to be Space Jesus, and couldn't sell it.

JarJar Binks' idiocy, which by rights should have gotten him killed a few times during the movie.


What did work:

John Williams music

Costumes, sets, practical effects

Fight choreography, especially Darth Maul

[Peelee]

What didn't work:

Anakin Skywalker's... inability to fail at anything he attempted (Marty Stu character)

I'll actually argue this with you. Anakin didn't have the inability to fail anything he attempted so much as he has the inability to achieve anything he attempted. At least, through his own choices; his successes are not due to his own conscious action.

He doesn't blow up the control ship in Episode I because he's an excellent pilot and calculated the tactical weakness, he accidentally flies into the ship and crashes, then hits the wrong button and blows it all up. He loses the assassin trying to kill Padme in Ep. II, and then flubs rescuing Ob-Wan. In Ep III, he explicitly turns to the Dark Side in order to save Padme, and then actually strangles her himself very shortly after. He's a consummate screw-up. The only time he's ever competent is when he's with the Emperor. No Palpatine, Dooku chops his hand off. Palpatine is around, he defeats the Count neatly. Disarms Mace Windu when Palps is around, get horribly mangled by Obi-Wan when he's not.

Anakin... kind of sucked. Now, that's not any better than being uber-competent, but at least Mary Sues can accomplish things by their own agency. Annie couldn't even do that.

[Dr.Samurai]

I agree with Peelee on Anakin. I would only differ to say that Anakin didn't suck generally. He was pretty gifted among the Jedi and could accomplish quite a bit. He was on his way to becoming Master at a young age. But... those freaking Sith man. They screw everything up.

[Leewei]

[Anakin] doesn't blow up the control ship in Episode I because he's an excellent pilot and calculated the tactical weakness, he accidentally flies into the ship and crashes, then hits the wrong button and blows it all up. <snip>

My critique is only for Episode I; later episodes can be discussed elsewhere.

The unlikely destruction of the droid army by Anakin's botch was something I chalked up to him being the "chosen one". Thinking it over, I guess Mary Sue wasn't a good way for me to describe this. Really, it's much more in the way of deus ex machina, or perhaps an ***-pull on the part of Lucas.

Skywalker's creation of C3PO from scrap parts and his pod racing both strain credulity. The notion of his immaculate conception is nearly comical.

[Peelee]

My critique is only for Episode I; later episodes can be discussed elsewhere.

The unlikely destruction of the droid army by Anakin's botch was something I chalked up to him being the "chosen one". Thinking it over, I guess Mary Sue wasn't a good way for me to describe this. Really, it's much more in the way of deus ex machina, or perhaps an ***-pull on the part of Lucas.

Fair enough to limit it to TPM. And yes, his winning the battle was entirely due to him being the "chosen one," but that still doesn't negate that even then he doesn't get anything accomplished through his own agency. He wins because the universe wants him to win. Contrast this to another "chosen one," Neo in The Matrix (also assume there was only one Matrix move. Good life advice in general, in any event). Neo is the "chosen one," but he doesn't believe he is; he's unsure. This is reinforced when the Oracle tells him that he has the gift, but he's waiting for something. When Trinity gives her speech, he realizes what he was waiting for, and realizes he is The One. Once he believes it, he also believes he can manipulate the Matrix, and then he manifests his powers. He needed the kick-start, but once he believed, he still exerted his own agency. Conversely, Anakin just has stuff happen to him. In the podrace, for instance he could have simply won based on skill; he clearly had the fastest pod, considering he was able to catch up despite the other racers having such a massive lead, but even then his speed eventually just matches Sebulba's (we'll ignore for the moment why he matches speed right after catching up, despite that he can clearly go faster). At this point, it's between him and Sebulba. Both have the opportunity to win. Anakin has the opportunity to do something - anything - that can give him the lead. But he doesn't do anything; Sebulba rams him, causing their racers to intertwine, and eventually causing Sebulba's to break. It's not a kick-start so much as it is a self-sabotage on Sebulba's part. Anakin doesn't end up winning the race, he ends up being the race. He's the only podracer with a vehicle at the end. He could have gotten out and walked across the finish line if he wanted, because all the other racers destroyed each other. He didn't win; everyone else just lost.

Ass-pull does pretty well cover Anakin's achievements; we're told that he's amazing, and then we're shown that he's one lucky SOB. It doesn't really match up.

[factotum]

Yeah, but in the Star Wars universe, is someone lucky, or are they just being thrown a few bones by the Force? It could be argued that Anakin seemingly having all his victories gifted to him is down to his Force sensitivity rather than blind luck.

[Peelee]

Yeah, but in the Star Wars universe, is someone lucky, or are they just being thrown a few bones by the Force? It could be argued that Anakin seemingly having all his victories gifted to him is down to his Force sensitivity rather than blind luck.

It could be argued incredibly well, in fact, but such argument doesn't change the fact that said bones being thrown are not a result of his agency. The Force helped Luke blow the Death Star because he put his faith in it, concentrated on it, and chose to let it control his actions but also obey his commands, as Obi-Wan put it. The Force helped Anakin blow the Droid Control Ship because he tried spinning, that's a good trick!

[Amazon]

He rolled a natural 20.

[deuterio12]

Anakin Skywalker's immaculate conception, enormous midichlorian (stupid in their own right) count, inability to fail at anything he attempted (Marty Stu character), and poorly-defined role as the "Chosen One". Basically, Anakin was supposed to be Space Jesus, and couldn't sell it.

Well, to be fair Anakin would turn out to be super evil general Darth Vader who literally butchers jedi kids for dinner. I see it more as the force trying to tell Obi-Wan that the kid's bad news.

[Olinser]

It could be argued incredibly well, in fact, but such argument doesn't change the fact that said bones being thrown are not a result of his agency. The Force helped Luke blow the Death Star because he put his faith in it, concentrated on it, and chose to let it control his actions but also obey his commands, as Obi-Wan put it. The Force helped Anakin blow the Droid Control Ship because he tried spinning, that's a good trick!

Not to mention Luke was already reasonably skilled as a pilot (and exposited on-screen in ANH prior to him actually getting into a cockpit), and actually had to be saved by another pilot in the duration of the run because he couldn't shake a single TIE on his tail. The Force just amplified his already existing skill when he was already focused on accomplishing a specific task, and only after he consciously chose to trust it (and while the time period isn't clear, he DID have at least some explicit period of Jedi instruction from Obi-Wan on the trip to Alderaan.

Anakin had no experience in anything but a pod racer which used completely different controls, had no training shown, NOTHING he did for the entire space sequence had anything to do with any kind of skill or ability. He blundered around 'SPINNING GOOD TRICK LUL', got shot down, somehow crashed through the shields onto the single critical enemy ship he had no idea was important, and ACCIDENTALLY blew it up by pushing the wrong button.

It's the difference between somebody familiar with guns deciding that they need to kill an evil person and the Force helping them make a near-impossible long distance shot, and somebody walking down the street, tripping, and accidentally dropping a piano on the head of an evil person.

[Lord Joeltion]

I prefer to believe the luckiest kid in the galaxy just happened to hop aboard the ship with the most badass astromech ever

[Olinser]

I prefer to believe the luckiest kid in the galaxy just happened to hop aboard the ship with the most badass astromech ever

See I'd actually be perfectly fine with a throwaway line like 'Hey R2 why did you take control' and then the torpedoes firing and destroying the ship. It still strains a bit of disbelief that he luckily crashed into the hangar of the control ship but it's at least SOMEWHAT credible that a highly competent droid like R2 analyzed a weakness and exploited it to destroy the ship rather than Mary Sue Skywalker accidentally blowing it up.

[Bohandas]

I wonder if it's intentional that Darth Vader is actually a less sympathetic character in the prequel trilogy than he is in the original trilogy

[factotum]

I wonder if it's intentional that Darth Vader is actually a less sympathetic character in the prequel trilogy than he is in the original trilogy

So you're suggesting Lucas deliberately made the prequels rubbish rather than just being bad at his job?