Magic The Gathering Thread XXIII: Modern is Dead, Long Live Modern

[Ninjaman]

Fun card!

The only thing I'll say against it is you never want to play it in a deck that's got any noticable artifacts. If the opponent doesn't have any artifacts, you might still want to play it for the gremlins, but could be forced to destroy your own artifacts or have it be a dead draw. If your deck lacks artifacts, hey problem solved, but that's a relevant deckbuilding constraint. Fortunately, I don't believe there's a window where between paying the mana and choosing the artifacts where a savvy foe could sac one or two of their artifacts to make you nuke your own if you have them, so there's that at least, but it's better to avoid the issue as much as possible and simply try to not have artifacts you'd mind losing.

I really don't understand what point you're trying to make here.
You shouldn't play artifacts yourself, because you might shoot them? Why don't you just, not do that?
You can't play it for more than there are targetable artifacts, so having artifacts will only provide you with the option of exchanging your artifacts for tokens, at no downside compared to having no artifacts.

You're right that an opponent can't sac artifacts to make you target. You play the card, pay the cost, and announce the targets, all before your opponents get priority.

[Silfir]

Fun card!

The only thing I'll say against it is you never want to play it in a deck that's got any noticable artifacts. If the opponent doesn't have any artifacts, you might still want to play it for the gremlins, but could be forced to destroy your own artifacts or have it be a dead draw. If your deck lacks artifacts, hey problem solved, but that's a relevant deckbuilding constraint. Fortunately, I don't believe there's a window where between paying the mana and choosing the artifacts where a savvy foe could sac one or two of their artifacts to make you nuke your own if you have them, so there's that at least, but it's better to avoid the issue as much as possible and simply try to not have artifacts you'd mind losing.

I really don't understand the logic behind this - there's nothing in Release the Gremlins that punishes you in any way for having artifacts of your own. You don't have to target any if you don't want to, and if you do want to, it's an upside.

It'll only ever be bad if none of your opponents play artifacts - whether you play any of your own or not - though from my understanding, mana rocks are very common in EDH, so there should always be some targets.

[mythmonster2]

I really don't understand the logic behind this - there's nothing in Release the Gremlins that punishes you in any way for having artifacts of your own. You don't have to target any if you don't want to, and if you do want to, it's an upside.

It'll only ever be bad if none of your opponents play artifacts - whether you play any of your own or not - though from my understanding, mana rocks are very common in EDH, so there should always be some targets.

I think they're just saying that if, say, you want three gremlins, but your opponent only has two artifacts, you have to also target one of your own artifacts, too. (Otherwise, you can only get two gremlins)

[Tvtyrant]

I think they're just saying that if, say, you want three gremlins, but your opponent only has two artifacts, you have to also target one of your own artifacts, too. (Otherwise, you can only get two gremlins)

But then you would want to run more artifacts, not less..

[Androgeus]

if you are really worried about that situation, then you could run things like Mycosynth Wellspring or Ichor Wellspring so you get more value from destroying your own stuff.

[sonofzeal]

Release the Gremlins does not say "up to X target artifacts", it says "X target artifacts". If your opponent has two artifacts and you pay 7 mana (X=3), you MUST target one of your own if you have one. It's still valid even if there aren't enough valid targets, but you can't choose to spare your own artifacts if you run out of valid targets on the opponent's board.

Compare Reckless Spite. You can cast it when there's only one valid target and it'll destroy that target, but if there's exactly two valid target then you've got to destroy both of them no matter where they are.

[Androgeus]

Release the Gremlins does not say "up to X target artifacts", it says "X target artifacts". If your opponent has two artifacts and you pay 7 mana (X=3), you MUST target one of your own if you have one. It's still valid even if there aren't enough valid targets, but you can't choose to spare your own artifacts if you run out of valid targets on the opponent's board.

Compare Reckless Spite. You can cast it when there's only one valid target and it'll destroy that target, but if there's exactly two valid target then you've got to destroy both of them no matter where they are.

Or, you know, just cast if for X=2?

edit: You need two targets to cast Reckless Spite. You can't cast it if there is only one legal target.

[Tvtyrant]

Release the Gremlins does not say "up to X target artifacts", it says "X target artifacts". If your opponent has two artifacts and you pay 7 mana (X=3), you MUST target one of your own if you have one. It's still valid even if there aren't enough valid targets, but you can't choose to spare your own artifacts if you run out of valid targets on the opponent's board.

Compare Reckless Spite. You can cast it when there's only one valid target and it'll destroy that target, but if there's exactly two valid target then you've got to destroy both of them no matter where they are.

You target when you cast, so even if they sac in response it neither fails to cast nor switches to one of your cards as a target.

[Silfir]

Release the Gremlins does not say "up to X target artifacts", it says "X target artifacts". If your opponent has two artifacts and you pay 7 mana (X=3), you MUST target one of your own if you have one. It's still valid even if there aren't enough valid targets, but you can't choose to spare your own artifacts if you run out of valid targets on the opponent's board.

Compare Reckless Spite. You can cast it when there's only one valid target and it'll destroy that target, but if there's exactly two valid target then you've got to destroy both of them no matter where they are.

I think you're getting confused about the rules about casting spells and choosing their targets - there is no window of time inbetween you determining the value for X and choosing the targets; you do both when you cast the spell. Your opponent can sacrifice or bounce or otherwise get rid of an artifact you're targeting after you've cast the spell, but that will NOT result in you having to choose a different target. Release the Gremlins will simply target the remaining artifacts (but still make the original number of gremlins), unless all of the targets disappear prior to resolution, in which case Release the Gremlins "fizzles", is countered (in which case it won't make any gremlins either).

There is literally no set of circumstances in which you could possibly be forced to destroy one of your own artifacts against your will as a result of playing Release the Gremlins - you pick all the targets, and you control how big X is.

[sonofzeal]

I think you're getting confused about the rules about casting spells and choosing their targets - there is no window of time inbetween you determining the value for X and choosing the targets; you do both when you cast the spell. Your opponent can sacrifice or bounce or otherwise get rid of an artifact you're targeting after you've cast the spell, but that will NOT result in you having to choose a different target. Release the Gremlins will simply target the remaining artifacts (but still make the original number of gremlins), unless all of the targets disappear prior to resolution, in which case Release the Gremlins "fizzles", is countered (in which case it won't make any gremlins either).

There is literally no set of circumstances in which you could possibly be forced to destroy one of your own artifacts against your will as a result of playing Release the Gremlins - you pick all the targets, and you control how big X is.

What happens if your opponents doesn't happen to have any artifacts in their deck? Or maybe just a one-of thrown in somewhere that may never hit the field. Imagine it's 5-8 turns in and you've yet to see any artifacts on your opponent's board. You've got two Release the Gremlins sitting in your hand. How are you feeling right now?

If you go back to my first post though, you'll see a handy little line about how "fortunately, I don't believe there's a window where between paying the mana and choosing the artifacts where a savvy foe could sac one or two of their artifacts to make you nuke your own if you have them, so there's that at least". But if you're going to include four copies of Release the Gremlins, you've got to be prepared for the situation where there's not many artifacts in the opponent's deck to start with, and that means avoiding relying on artifacts on your side of the board too much or having it be a dead draw. To me, the whole value of the card is that it's potent artifact hate that can function without artifacts to hate on, since seven mana for three 2/2's isn't all that far off of a kicked Saproling Migration and could help you sneak around blockers for some critical late-game damage, or chump for a few turns while you draw your win.

[Tvtyrant]

What happens if your opponents doesn't happen to have any artifacts in their deck? Or maybe just a one-of thrown in somewhere that may never hit the field. Imagine it's 5-8 turns in and you've yet to see any artifacts on your opponent's board. You've got two Release the Gremlins sitting in your hand. How are you feeling right now?

If you go back to my first post though, you'll see a handy little line about how "fortunately, I don't believe there's a window where between paying the mana and choosing the artifacts where a savvy foe could sac one or two of their artifacts to make you nuke your own if you have them, so there's that at least". But if you're going to include four copies of Release the Gremlins, you've got to be prepared for the situation where there's not many artifacts in the opponent's deck to start with, and that means avoiding relying on artifacts on your side of the board too much or having it be a dead draw. To me, the whole value of the card is that it's potent artifact hate that can function without artifacts to hate on, since seven mana for three 2/2's isn't all that far off of a kicked Saproling Migration and could help you sneak around blockers for some critical late-game damage, or chump for a few turns while you draw your win.

You can only make as many gremlins as there were artifacts to target (see oracle). Having your own artifacts lets you use it at all if your opponent isn't running any.

[tgva8889]

If your opponents don't have any artifacts in Commander, you're probably pretty happy about that situation already, so you won't mind having a Release the Gremlins for whenever they draw them. I don't think you have to worry too much about having your own artifacts so you can make gremlins; destroying artifacts is really the reason to play Release the Gremlins anyways. If you want the creatures, you're better off playing some other card.

[Ninjaman]

Release the Gremlins does not say "up to X target artifacts", it says "X target artifacts". If your opponent has two artifacts and you pay 7 mana (X=3), you MUST target one of your own if you have one. It's still valid even if there aren't enough valid targets, but you can't choose to spare your own artifacts if you run out of valid targets on the opponent's board.

If there is only two artifacts on the board, you can't play it for X=3, because there's not enough targets.
It's written in the rulings for the card on gatherer too.

Compare Reckless Spite. You can cast it when there's only one valid target and it'll destroy that target, but if there's exactly two valid target then you've got to destroy both of them no matter where they are.

No you can't, you need two targets to cast the spell, because it doesn't say up to.

You can never cast a card if you can't choose enough legal targets.

[Silfir]

What happens if your opponents doesn't happen to have any artifacts in their deck? Or maybe just a one-of thrown in somewhere that may never hit the field. Imagine it's 5-8 turns in and you've yet to see any artifacts on your opponent's board. You've got two Release the Gremlins sitting in your hand. How are you feeling right now?

[...]

But if you're going to include four copies of Release the Gremlins

Slow down for a moment, please.

Do you understand the context in which Release the Gremlins was even brought up in the thread? It was only ever in the discussion for EDH. That is, Elder Dragon Highlander - a format in which you can only have a singular copy of a card in your deck.

Outside of EDH there isn't even a discussion about having Release the Gremlins in your deck. You either want a sideboard card that can destroy a lot of artifacts on the cheap, like Vandalblast, By Force or Shattering Spree, or you want much more potent token makers, like Kuldotha's Rebirth. Release the Gremlins is unlikely to see a sniff of anyone's maindeck outside of EDH, let alone as a four-of, for all the reasons you mentioned. You're tilting at windmills.

[Ebon_Drake]

If your opponents don't have any artifacts in Commander, you're probably pretty happy about that situation already, so you won't mind having a Release the Gremlins for whenever they draw them. I don't think you have to worry too much about having your own artifacts so you can make gremlins; destroying artifacts is really the reason to play Release the Gremlins anyways. If you want the creatures, you're better off playing some other card.

This is correct. Release The Gremlins is principally a multi-target artifact destruction card with the added gravy of also giving you token creatures. If the plan is to generate big mana and get a whole bunch of tokens, play Goblin Offensive or whatever instead.

Whether Release The Gremlins will be a useful and reliable maindeck choice or routinely a dead/underwhelming draw is entirely down to the metagame you're using it in. It seems like Commander should often provide plenty of targets, particularly since it's generally a multiplayer format. However, if the particular playgroup isn't big on artifacts then maybe not.

[Tvtyrant]

It seems like a card that gets better the more overpowered the group is, like Mox Monkey (gorilla shaman) it lets you cheaply blow up the $1000 mana rocks.

[Ninjaman]

It seems like a card that gets better the more overpowered the group is, like Mox Monkey (gorilla shaman) it lets you cheaply blow up the $1000 mana rocks.

Mox monkey is good because it is efficient. Release the Gremlins isn't.

[Spore]

Which guild do you think is the cheapest in the upcoming GoR? I want to get into paper but the card prices are quite daunting. I was thinking about szarting off with green stompy, but Carnage Tyrants for 15 Dollars a pop hurt a tad.

[Gauntlet]

Which guild do you think is the cheapest in the upcoming GoR? I want to get into paper but the card prices are quite daunting. I was thinking about szarting off with green stompy, but Carnage Tyrants for 15 Dollars a pop hurt a tad.

Mono green stompy is likely to be one of the cheaper competitive decks. Tyrant is expensive, sure, but not needing to run shocklands will make monocolour a lot more budget than any multicolour combination. Of the monocolour options, green is already established as having a reasonable number of playable cards (Steel Leaf Champion, Ghalta, Tyrant, Llanowar Elves, etc) while the other monocolour deck with any prevalence right now (red) is losing a lot of its powerful cards to rotation when GRN comes out.

[tgva8889]

While Carnage Tyrant is a very good card, you also don't really need more than, like, 2 if you don't want to spend that much money. Sure, it's better than a lot of the other cards, but it's not so much better you can't save a few bucks. If you're playing at FNM, there are certainly suitable substitutes that will treat you just fine.

Also the shock lands aren't going to be too expensive if the prices of other Standard-legal lands are any indication, and picking them up will serve you well down the road since they're staples in Modern and some of them are played in even older formats. Deciding to play, say, GB or UB wouldn't be a terrible idea, you'd just have to be willing to lay down some money for your playset.

[Finback]

What happens if your opponents doesn't happen to have any artifacts in their deck? Or maybe just a one-of thrown in somewhere that may never hit the field. Imagine it's 5-8 turns in and you've yet to see any artifacts on your opponent's board. You've got two Release the Gremlins sitting in your hand. How are you feeling right now?

That's what sideboarding is for. You either know what sort of stuff they're running (you've played against it before), you know the environment you're playing in (eg Kaladesh block and Mirrodin block were both superladen with artifacts), or you're including it to exploit your own stuff. Yeah, it can be sucky to be sitting with a "dead hand", but that's a) part of the learning curve about building decks b) entirely statistically possible.

[Finback]

Whether Release The Gremlins will be a useful and reliable maindeck choice or routinely a dead/underwhelming draw is entirely down to the metagame you're using it in. It seems like Commander should often provide plenty of targets, particularly since it's generally a multiplayer format. However, if the particular playgroup isn't big on artifacts then maybe not.

It *can* be fun depending on your commander, or your strategy. I *may* have once dropped out a Mycosynth Lattice before casting it...

[Techwarrior]

Thats probably the most fair Mycosinth Lattice use I've ever heard of... Usually I see it comboed with Vandalblast.

[Ninjaman]

Thats probably the most fair Mycosinth Lattice use I've ever heard of... Usually I see it comboed with Vandalblast.

That's even meaner than March of the Machines.

[Svata]

Nah, March is worse, because that prevents them from ever playing any lands, and blows up the ones already in play. It effectively locks them out of the game entirely. Vandalblast they can at least rebuild from

[Gauntlet]

Nah, March is worse, because that prevents them from ever playing any lands, and blows up the ones already in play. It effectively locks them out of the game entirely. Vandalblast they can at least rebuild from

March of the Machines is definitely more powerful, but it does also lock you yourself out (barring support from elsewhere) rather than being onesided.

[solidork]

What I want to see is Mycosynth Lattice + Bludgeon Brawl + Vulshock Battlemaster. I have no idea what it would look like on MTGO, but it would be hilarious...

[Svata]

That's why you don't build a March/Lattice deck without lots of rocks and/or dorks? The reason symmetrical effects are unfair is because you build your deck to take advantage of it, where your opponents haven't. If you're likely to lock yourself out, you don't play it until later.

[unseenmage]

Mycosynth Lattice + Karn Silver Golem with a side of Darksteel Forge is still the best. Straight colorless so slots into any deck AND you can targeted removal the lands of those whom defy you.

[darkdragoon]

Mox monkey is good because it is efficient. Release the Gremlins isn't.

Unless you're only targeting Moxes a lot of these are roughly the same cost. Compare to
Manic Vandal
Viashino Heretic
Ruinous Gremlin
Viridian shaman
etc.

Now, if you only want a sweeper then By Force should be a higher priority. If you feel you need to zap one thing over and over there's things like Shattering Pulse.