[Drop Dead Studios] Time Handbook Open Beta- Alternate Timeline

[Ssalarn]

Hey everyone! I'm happy to announce that we're (finally!) ready to release the beta for the new Time Handbook for Spheres of Power. You can check it out here! For anyone unfamiliar with the base Time sphere that this expands on, you can find it here.

We'll be running this playtest a little differently than we have in the past. Due to my current work schedule, I'm only going to be able to process feedback and post updates about once a week (probably Sundays), so if it takes a bit for something you comment on to be acted upon, please be patient and I'll do my best to make sure everything gets appropriately addressed.

Enjoy!

[Mezzaluna]

I've looked over all the talents so far, and I'm kinda apprehensive about the design direction it's going in.

So many of the effects are just... things that mechanically have nothing to do with the time sphere, given a time-flavored coat of paint. Time magic has a lot of potential for interesting mechanics, and I think this playtest was too conservative and fell back on abilities that don't take proper advantage of the theme.

The sort of grab-bag of arbitrary mechanics that most of the non-advanced talents offer just dilutes Time Sphere's identity.

Accelerated Healing is already an alteration talent (Vitality, though Accelerated Healing is stronger), and really it should just be a life sphere talent.
Broken Time, Delayed Healing and Lethargy are just normal debuffs you could just as easily see in the Fate, Death, or Alteration spheres (among others).

Second Chance, while having its own niche, has huge overlap with Fate sphere's Bless.

Timeline Bridge similarly feels like it could just have easily been a Fate Sphere effect.

The rest of the normal talents are in theme, but besides Time Clone, none of them are especially exciting options that give the Time sphere a stronger identity.
I know that conventional pop-culture style time magic can be pretty hard to implement in a tabletop in a way that doesn't disrupt tabletop games too heavily, but it just overall feels like the design space wasn't really explored.

Even if a lot of the exciting time magic abilities might end up having to go into Advanced Talents, they're something I'd want to see.

[Mehangel]

I thought I would offer suggestions for the Time Handbook (which can take the form of talents, feats, or advanced talents):

Temporal Rewind (Requires the Retry talent. Rewinds time back 1 minute per CL; Obviously an advanced talent)
Temporal Reload (a greater version of Temporal Rewind, except that when you use the advanced talent you set a save point, which you can return to as an immediate action.)
Time Energy Generation (probably best added as a talent or feat).
Cognitive Development: Adds or removes bonuses/penalties to mental ability scores (probably best added as a feat or as an update to the Age talent).
Deteriorate: Deals damage to objects, staggers constructs and undead.
Object Displacement: When you target an unattended object with the Eject talent, you may spend an additional spell point to maintain the target displaced from time for 1 hour per caster level. When dismissed, the object appears within close range of your current position. (probably best added as a feat)

[khadgar567]

I rely like the re train talents and dot for dot sake

[EldritchWeaver]

Deteriorate: Deals damage to objects, staggers constructs and undead.
Object Displacement: When you target an unattended object with the Eject talent, you may spend an additional spell point to maintain the target displaced from time for 1 hour per caster level. When dismissed, the object appears within close range of your current position. (probably best added as a feat)

Why doesn't Deteriorate affect living beings? Why should Object Displacement be a feat?

[Mehangel]

Why doesn't Deteriorate affect living beings?

I imagined it working like a sort of rust/erosion talent, effectively Age (time) for objects and creatures not otherwise subject to aging penalties.

Why should Object Displacement be a feat?

Because it requires the Eject talent (thus not appropriate to be a basic talent), and doesn't have alot of potential to be world-changing/game-breaking (thus not appropriate to be an advanced talent).

[EldritchWeaver]

Because it requires the Eject talent (thus not appropriate to be a basic talent), and doesn't have alot of potential to be world-changing/game-breaking (thus not appropriate to be an advanced talent).

Then the better method is to update Eject to be taken twice.

[AlienFromBeyond]

Is the lack of feats intentional, or will they be coming soon in the future? A handbook without any feats feels incomplete to me frankly.

[meat_shield]

Is the lack of feats intentional, or will they be coming soon in the future? A handbook without any feats feels incomplete to me frankly.

I was going to make the same comment - Time sphere needs some feats and items as well.

[Ssalarn]

Is the lack of feats intentional, or will they be coming soon in the future? A handbook without any feats feels incomplete to me frankly.

We've got some reserved space for feats, items, or other options, but we're leaving some time before adding to make sure we're focusing efforts on the kind of mechanics the largest number of people are looking for. We realize that there is a lot of potential in the concept of Time, but that there's a balance that needs to be struck so the options can actually be used at a majority of tables without needing the campaign to be entirely built around it or the options being overly difficult to implement smoothly, so we're kind of using that word count buffer to slowly adjust for that with options that meet player's wants and needs outside of the basic play and sphere expansion options.

[Cybershark]

We've got some reserved space for feats, items, or other options, but we're leaving some time before adding to make sure we're focusing efforts on the kind of mechanics the largest number of people are looking for. We realize that there is a lot of potential in the concept of Time, but that there's a balance that needs to be struck so the options can actually be used at a majority of tables without needing the campaign to be entirely built around it or the options being overly difficult to implement smoothly, so we're kind of using that word count buffer to slowly adjust for that with options that meet player's wants and needs outside of the basic play and sphere expansion options.

I'm skimming over the Time Handbook right now. I was surprised that there's only one talent that grants a +1/2 CL bonus to initiative. Would it be possible to implement some Initiative-manipulating talents into the Time handbook? For example, a talent that swaps the result of two initiative rolls, or inflicts a penalty to someone's initiative roll- if it would reduce their initiative result to less than somebody else's, the target would act later in the round, something of that sort? I agree with Mezzaluna: Time sphere could do with a stronger identity.

[EarthSeraphEdna]

Even if a lot of the exciting time magic abilities might end up having to go into Advanced Talents, they're something I'd want to see.

I have to echo this sentiment. The talents here do not feel particularly chronomantic or chronokinetic. Even comparing them to Paizo or, yes, Dreamscarred psionic options, they are still lacking in basic "time magic" tricks such as looking into the past of an area (e.g. sensitivity to psychic impressions), throwing someone forward in time for a few moments (e.g. time hop), or the iconic time stop.

[Eldaran]

throwing someone forward in time for a few moments (e.g. time hop)

That's in the base sphere... It's a talent called Eject.

[khadgar567]

I have to echo this sentiment. The talents here do not feel particularly chronomantic or chronokinetic. Even comparing them to Paizo or, yes, Dreamscarred psionic options, they are still lacking in basic "time magic" tricks such as looking into the past of an area (e.g. sensitivity to psychic impressions), throwing someone forward in time for a few moments (e.g. time hop), or the iconic time stop.

Kinda agreed with edna here. Currently sop lacks the deffinet options and lot of books lack flavorful good options like i dont know pulling prince of persia on encounters or sycrocity power from constantine and since we got akashic and psionic support why not add akasha to crestion sphere

[EarthSeraphEdna]

That's in the base sphere... It's a talent called Eject.

Retract that complaint and replace it with "shorten enemies' duration-based effects."

[Ssalarn]

... lacking in basic "time magic" tricks such as looking into the past of an area (e.g. sensitivity to psychic impressions), throwing someone forward in time for a few moments (e.g. time hop), or the iconic time stop.

Virtually all of that except for the looking into the past (which is more of a Divination ability) is in the base sphere. Time Freeze is SoP time stop and Eject kicks people out of combat for rounds per caster level.

Retract that complaint and replace it with "shorten enemies' duration-based effects."

That also already exists in the base sphere, it's called Fast Time.

[EldritchWeaver]

It seems prudent to suggest this:

Before you post anything about missing capabilities, please check that the current available talents do not cover them already.

[Ssalarn]

It seems prudent to suggest this:

Before you post anything about missing capabilities, please check that the current available talents do not cover them already.

To assist in facilitating this suggestion,I've included a link to the base sphere in the OP.

[Mezzaluna]

Okay, after some thinking on the sorts of things I'd expect out of time sphere, here are a few of my own thoughts:

1) Some sort of fix to the mechanics of Time Freeze: stopping time is one of the most iconic abilities of time magic, and while the existing core talent is flavorful, I've barely seen any situations where it could see use.
Mainly is the danger of it backfiring on you entirely because of how each creature, including allies, makes their own saving throw - you could freeze all your allies while all your enemies make the save. The inconsistency there makes it too chaotic to use unless you're frequently on your own in fights.

2) The biggest thing I think Time Sphere can get in terms of reasonable utility is the ability to use its talents on objects.

This adds new utility dimensions to a lot of talents that were previously mainly for battle.
-Haste to make cooking or timers to go by faster
-Slow to make acids act slower, make a specific object fall or break apart slower, etc
-Age to make plants grow into trees temporarily, or shrink them into sprouts*
-Age to make wine turn better, or things decay away*
-Eject to remove objects from the time stream until you need them*
-A localized stasis ability that only freezes a single object in place and increases its hardness, turning an object with size depending on CL into something like an immovable rod

I'm not sure how much each one warrants an individual talent, or could be merged together or into an existing one, but I think there's a lot of potential there.

*'Target' is a bit vague and maybe you can already do this with the core sphere, but if it was already possible then a sidebar clarifying it would be good

3) Expanded, more flexible use for existing talents:
-Retry is very expensive, and for good reason: but what if there was a Lesser Retry (an 'undo') for one spell point that only undid a single action within the last turn?
--More interestingly, this can also expand to out of combat to undo situations regarding unattended objects, like resetting a shattered vase that just fell off the shelf back to its about-to-fall position and putting all the water back in, or returning a triggered trap to its original state

-Improved Eject: An unattended object or willing target could maybe be sent forward minutes or even hours per level, with you being able to specify the exact interval. Send a hungry ally two and a half hours forward to dinner time, or be evil and send a bomb forward in time to appear right in the middle of a noble banquet. This doesn't feel like it creates any dramatic opportunities that distant/unseen teleport in warp sphere couldn't.

4) Advanced Talents
Time travel - it could even have a CL20 prerequisite if it's never intended for serious use, but I think the fact it's missing entirely is a bit of an elephant in the room. Even if it's in a limited form, it's something a lot of people would want to see.

[EarthSeraphEdna]

Virtually all of that except for the looking into the past (which is more of a Divination ability) is in the base sphere. Time Freeze is SoP time stop and Eject kicks people out of combat for rounds per caster level.

I specifically suggested "looking into the past" because that is something Divination still does not cover. The Divination handbook has already published, so there is no opportunity to go back and reinsert that.

Time Freeze is SoP time stop

No, it very much is not. It is not quite time stop, something that could very well be an advanced talent. In fact, as covered above, Time Freeze is not a very good talent at all.

That also already exists in the base sphere, it's called Fast Time.

This one, I will concede to. I have not been on the metaphorical ball.

[Mehangel]

I specifically suggested "looking into the past" because that is something Divination still does not cover. The Divination handbook has already published, so there is no opportunity to go back and reinsert that.

Divine Time, the alternate divination does look into the past, so in a sense it is already covered.

[EarthSeraphEdna]

Divine Time, the alternate divination does look into the past, so in a sense it is already covered.

It is a little on the weak side (and rightfully so, being an alternate divination). Something that could go back days or weeks would be nice, along with more information. Sensitivity to psychic impressions covers a wide span, for comparison.

Given that the Time sphere handbook as it currently stands is throwing in effects from everywhere, I do not see why a more dedicated postcognition effect would be out of line.

[EarthSeraphEdna]

On second thought, I will retract all suggestions and stay out of this due to a lack of insight, save for my comment on Improved After Image, which could use a bit of a tweak due to the swift action situation.

[Cybershark]

On the topic of compatibility between Fracture and Coiled Blade, here is a list of things each archetype alters or replaces.

Coiled Blade: Bonus Feats at 1st, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th and Armor Training. You can read it here: http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/coiled-blade

Fracture: Heavy Armor, Shield proficiencies, Bonus Feats at 6th, 10th, and 20th level. It's in the Time handbook document.

Notice that Coiled Blade gains a martial tradition without altering proficiencies. Since it says it does not alter proficiencies, it's easy enough to see that you get the Tradition on top of your Fighter proficiencies.

Were it not for the 20th level bonus feat also being replaced by Fracture (i personally think this should replace Weapon Mastery, as it's a lot more like a capstone ability than a bonus feat), Coiled Blade and Fracture would be compatible, because Fracture alters proficiencies that the Coiled Blade does not touch.

Now see there's the issue of a weird multiclassing, like taking a level in a class that already has a tradition and locks your proficiencies to light armor/simple weapons/bucklers, and not gaining the proficiencies from the Fighter level. Ssalarn, how does the following situation resolve itself?

Spoiler: Situation

Show

Alice takes her 1st level in a class that has a martial tradition. Her proficiencies are set to Light Armor, Bucklers, and Simple Weapons along with whatever (discipline) talents she has. She decides she wants to take her 2nd level in a Fighter (Fracture). Since this rule exists in the Martial Tradition section:

"Once a character has gained a martial tradition, they do not gain additional proficiencies for multiclassing, and characters who have already gained proficiencies from a class cannot benefit from martial traditions gained through multiclassing."

Would Alice therefore be unable to gain the Fracture archetype, since she does not gain the proficiencies from the Fighter class that Fracture requires to trade away. Do the "virtual" proficiencies still count for the purpose of being traded away by an archetype, or is Alice SOL and better off being a Coiled Blade

[Nyaa]

Clockstopper

This saddens Clockblocker.

[Sukebe]

I posted this in the document itself but I want to post it here as well:

I would really like to see more content for the classes in Spheres of Power. Right now this book is looking more like a Champions of the Spheres product than a SoP product. That is not to say I don't crave CotS products, I definitely do, I just don't want it to take the place of one of the sphere handbooks.

I personally would like to see at least : 1 archetype for one of the full caster classes introduced in SoP (though 1 archetype for each would be even better) and 1 or more new Incater specializations.

I would also like to see less mixing of other sphere abilities into the archetypes and talents. warp shows up far to often in this book when the focus is supposed to be on the time sphere.

[EldritchWeaver]

So the big question Ssalarn likely is going to have: Would you be content, if the existing remains, but high-caster options are added? Or do you want some content moved into a CotS HB as well?

[Sukebe]

So the big question Ssalarn likely is going to have: Would you be content, if the existing remains, but high-caster options are added? Or do you want some content moved into a CotS HB as well?

Personally I would be happy if the content I asked for were added. As I said, I do actually like the champions content as long as it doesn't take the place of SoP content.

If you know anyone who does not have Spheres of Might and was not interested in it I would talk to them about it though as the amount of champion content will still be pretty high

[A.J.Gibson]

I wouldn't mind seeing a Full-CL Time archetype myself (or adjusting the Symbiat to be one), but that said, writing Time talents is damned hard. Most time effects are potentially game breaking, and building something around that is inviting the ban hammer from the GM.

[mrguymiah]

Ssalarn, I want to start by thanking you for your hard work on this.

That being said, I feel the book focuses too much on things _besides_ the Time Sphere. Of the 25 pages, only 3.5 of them are for talents. There are 11 basic and 5 advanced. While I recognize that there is more to make it compatible with as other books have added classes and mechanics, it seems like more effort is spent fitting into those than creating something of its own.

Rather than just make complaints, here's what suggestions I have:
Basic Talents:
Opinion Reset - Spend a spell point and undo an out of combat diplomacy, intimidate, or bluff check.
[Essentially, you turn back the clock a moment so that you can make another attempt if things didn't go the way you wanted. Perhaps have a limit of no more than 1 (3 if it costs 2 spell points. They're already paying) additional attempts.]

Advanced Talents:
Age Control - CL15 - A permanent version of the Age talent.
[This is mostly a flavorful thing so that wizards don't need to become liches for their immortality, and already has precedence with the Elixir of Immortality in Alchemist Sphere available at lvl 10. The only difference being that the EoI requires 50k gp per application to return to young. So raising the level requirement to do it for free (or otherwise introducing a cost) does not seem unreasonable.]

Time in a Bottle - CL7 (10?), Death Sphere - Killing a creature of the same type (Humanoid in most cases) allows you to steal a fraction of their remaining natural lifespan.
[Similar to above, but a less stable, more morally ambiguous version.]