Surprisingly(?) functional Monk Multiclass concepts

[Arkhios]

A 2 level warlock dip only requires you to have 13 charisma, you aren't using the lock for spells, just choose ones that don't require a save. Being able to see through magical darkness to achieve the desired effects is more valuable than a level 20 capstone that you may not ever reach.

We are talking about functional monk multiclass options. You aren't going to get those capstone abilities anyway. I feel like you are arguing just because you can. You're original point of the ONLY way it can work is blah blah is moot because I proved that it's not the only way it can work.

With standard point buy (27 points to be distributed), 13 charisma is 5 points which could've been spent elsewhere, and is thus quite big investment. Especially if you don't use that ability score for anything else than to qualify for multiclassing. For races that get a racial modifier in Charisma, this is obviously less of an impact, but then again, those races are perhaps a little sub-optimal for Monk in the first place.

[scoutsdoitbettr]

Actually at night it's considered darkness, except that unusually bright full moons produce dim light, according to the PHB.

You are correct, I was assuming darkvision. But yes you wouldn't be able to see very far at night without darkvision

[scoutsdoitbettr]

With standard point buy (27 points to be distributed), 13 charisma is 5 points which could've been spent elsewhere, and is thus quite big investment. Especially if you don't use that ability score for anything else than to qualify for multiclassing. For races that get a racial modifier in Charisma, this is obviously less of an impact, but then again, those races are perhaps a little sub-optimal for Monk in the first place.

If you use point buy then yes it's a bit mad. Not everyone plays that way, I personally use an array or rolling. It's definitely something you need to weigh the pros and cons. It's doable though. And it's a valid multiclass build, one that has some decent synergy, with good story telling qualities.

[Arkhios]

If you use point buy then yes it's a bit mad. Not everyone plays that way, I personally use an array or rolling. It's definitely something you need to weigh the pros and cons. It's doable though. And it's a valid multiclass build, one that has some decent synergy, with good story telling qualities.

Be that as it may, as I said before, this thread still has value despite having to spread your 27 points thin, because the stat arrays can point you towards a "stat priority" if you roll your stats and wonder where to put those godly stats and in which order.

When I'm building something purely on theoretical base, I prefer using the point-buy as guideline. When I play, I do prefer rolling myself.

[Citan]

When have you been outside and not seen a shadow during the day, everything casts a shadow, including your opponent. The only limiting factor of the ability is that YOU have to be in "dim light or darkness" to use the ability. If you are caught in the open then it doesn't work. Your fog cloud idea negates it completely as the ability also says you can teleport to another spot that "you can see". You can't see through fog with RAW.


A 2 level warlock dip only requires you to have 13 charisma, you aren't using the lock for spells, just choose ones that don't require a save. Being able to see through magical darkness to achieve the desired effects is more valuable than a level 20 capstone that you may not ever reach.

We are talking about functional monk multiclass options. You aren't going to get those capstone abilities anyway. I feel like you are arguing just because you can. You're original point of the ONLY way it can work is blah blah is moot because I proved that it's not the only way it can work.

You're right by RAW about Fog Cloud no argue on that, and it's a good thing you stress that. Most people I game in though (not that there are that many of them though ^) DM just based their ruling on darkvision = see through heavily obscured area up to 10 feet away so we could see "inside the border" but it's a houserule indeed.

Besides that, it's nice of you to illustrate that a Shadow Monk can teleport from one enemy to another provided those conditions are met, but you are using your full bonus action just for advantage on the next attack you make. It's pretty decent use a bonus action, but...
- If you have dipped 2 levels into Warlock, you have absolutely no reason (besides not annoying party) not to keep a stone with Darkness on you, which means with Devil's Sight you always have advantage on most enemies anyways.
- If you don't have dipped into Warlock, a single level of Rogue for Expertise in Athletics will give you a very high chance of proning a creature on the first try, meaning advantage on *all* (melee) attacks for you *and* your allies until the start of the next turn of the creature.
So from an optimization point of view, the teleport + advantage feature is just a way to cover some niche situations or content oneself, but usually not the tactic providing the best return on investment, at least as far as "being better on attacks" goes.

Now, it's also a great way to "jump" from one group of enemies from another when base speed would not be enough, but imo that's not a situation that would happen that much often considering you get 40 feet speed base early, at highest levels 60. So it's great for example when starting a fight (move + teleport = high chance of getting into reach of at least one creature) or when needing to rush towards an isolated archer / caster.

It also means you can more easily than other classes go too far away from your group and end in a perilous situation because others just can't come help you because they don't have the same mobility. ^^

As for the rest...
You're behaving like a child that feels attacked because someone says his toy is not the best toy, it's funny for me, sad for you.

Thanks for trying to learn me how the ropes of Monk / Warlock multiclass works, but I've playing some and theorycrafting dozens of others already.

We are talking about a MONK here.
The one class that has the most benefits getting high DEX and high WIS (in addition to keeping a decent WIS), the one class that gets great features nearly level, the one class that relies on a single resource pool for 90% of its abilities.

Warlock / Monk can be a great multiclass, but it's not, never, an immediate, obvious/brainless choice. The simple fact you need 13 CHA means you just cannot start with 16 in DEX, WIS and CON (for maximum optimization) or with 14 CON (avoid negative bonus). You'll have to make a choice, with the most obvious one being to sacrifice WIS because at least you get Mage Armor invocation for AC. It also means you'll crave for ASIs, especially the first one, and you'll never max both DEX and WIS.
That's why the primary archetype to pair with Warlock is Shadows, because it's the one that can afford the most to have a low WIS since only Stunning Strike depends on it, and the one that can afford the most a setback in Ki progression, since none of his ability is higher than 2 Ki and his archetype one are long-duration spells. Plus its 11th level ability is underwhelming.
But it does shoehorn you into a specific "shadow-striker" build, and you'll wait quite a number of additional sessions compared to a pure Monk to get Diamond Soul.

[scoutsdoitbettr]

As for the rest...
You're behaving like a child that feels attacked because someone says his toy is not the best toy, it's funny for me, sad for you.

Thanks for trying to learn me how the ropes of Monk / Warlock multiclass works, but I've playing some and theorycrafting dozens of others already.

We are talking about a MONK here.
The one class that has the most benefits getting high DEX and high WIS (in addition to keeping a decent WIS), the one class that gets great features nearly level, the one class that relies on a single resource pool for 90% of its abilities.

Warlock / Monk can be a great multiclass, but it's not, never, an immediate, obvious/brainless choice. The simple fact you need 13 CHA means you just cannot start with 16 in DEX, WIS and CON (for maximum optimization) or with 14 CON (avoid negative bonus). You'll have to make a choice, with the most obvious one being to sacrifice WIS because at least you get Mage Armor invocation for AC. It also means you'll crave for ASIs, especially the first one, and you'll never max both DEX and WIS.
That's why the primary archetype to pair with Warlock is Shadows, because it's the one that can afford the most to have a low WIS since only Stunning Strike depends on it, and the one that can afford the most a setback in Ki progression, since none of his ability is higher than 2 Ki and his archetype one are long-duration spells. Plus its 11th level ability is underwhelming.
But it does shoehorn you into a specific "shadow-striker" build, and you'll wait quite a number of additional sessions compared to a pure Monk to get Diamond Soul.

Please go back and read. This whole post is about unique multiclass options for monks. Shadow monk is a niche subclass to begin with, adding a warlock dip to it just makes it beefier. I disagreed with your post about your way being the only way to take advantage of the at will teleport, which you just admitted only works because of a house rule.

No one is arguing against a single class monk benefits over multiclassing, and No one is saying it isn't MAD to MC into lock. Once again you are arguing just to argue. You are trying to prove a point that has no relevance. We obviously agree that the shadow monk works with a lock dip. That should be all there is to it.

So, to sum up. Shadow monk with a 2 or 3 level dip into warlock is a good multiclass option due to the synergy of the abilities. It is a niche class but one that can provide some fun and value to a game. It is a bit MAD so you will need to decide which abilities to prioritize unless you are rolling your stats and have some great rolls. Take advantage of devils sight and the darkness spell, spend ki points on abilities that dont require a save if you have low wisdom. Hex is your friend. Hexblades curse if even better. If you want a stealthy option and dont want to play rogue, take a look at the shadow monk. That sound about right?

[Arkhios]

To get back on track and to get away from a situation that is dangerously close to spiraling out of control, here's one pretty fun concept, although it is, again, one of the MAD concepts as well.

Mountain Dwarf
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 9, Wis 13, Cha 8
Totem Warrior 3/Drunken Master 17
+4 Str, +4 Con

Spoiler: Shtick

Show

Basically a Brawler that hits particularly hard with fists. You won't get much higher than 17 AC with point-buy, but you'll have Dodge as a bonus action should you need it, which is definitely nice, but your primary gimmick is to add Rage bonus to damage on your Flurry of Blows, as often as you can, with unarmed strikes dealing 1d10+modifiers.
This concept would work a lot better if you rolled your stats and you rolled really, really well. At least good enough so that you can afford taking both Durable and Dwarven Fortitude feats.

That said, you'd probably want to pick Bear Totem Spirit, if for nothing else, then just for that resistance to nearly every damage type in the game.

[Kuulvheysoon]

To get back on track and to get away from a situation that is dangerously close to spiraling out of control, here's one pretty fun concept, although it is, again, one of the MAD concepts as well.

Mountain Dwarf
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 9, Wis 14, Cha 8
Battlerager 6/Drunken Master 14
+4 Str, +3 Con*, Tavern Brawler*

Basically, you're Pwent Thibbledorf. Drunk Brawler in a spiked armor.

Unless I'm missing something, isn't this more of a utility build than an actual offensive build? I mean, you're dealing 1d4+Str+2 with your Attack action and only 1d4+Str+2 with your bonus action attack (and only while raging, which is 4 times a day), and none of that counts as magical (unless your DM houserules magical spiked armor to also count as a magical weapon).

[Arkhios]

Unless I'm missing something, isn't this more of a utility build than an actual offensive build? I mean, you're dealing 1d4+Str+2 with your Attack action and only 1d4+Str+2 with your bonus action attack (and only while raging, which is 4 times a day), and none of that counts as magical (unless your DM houserules magical spiked armor to also count as a magical weapon).

I realized that as well and I re-iterated the concept. See my edit of that post.

That said, you could still use Flurry of Blows with that bonus action, dealing the same 1d4+Str+2, twice instead of just once. Unarmed Strikes still benefit from Ki-Empowered Strikes, even if you wore armor, so your unarmed strikes would at least be magical. Admittedly, the Spiked Armor would be mostly flavor only, and could pretty much be replaced with a better medium armor (such as half-plate), and simply cherry-picking the constantly refreshing temporary hit points from Battlerager's 6th level feature.

[scoutsdoitbettr]

To get back on track and to get away from a situation that is dangerously close to spiraling out of control, here's one pretty fun concept, although it is, again, one of the MAD concepts as well.

Mountain Dwarf
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 9, Wis 13, Cha 8
Totem Warrior 3/Drunken Master 17
+4 Str, +4 Con

Spoiler: Shtick

Show

Basically a Brawler that hits particularly hard with fists. You won't get much higher than 17 AC with point-buy, but you'll have Dodge as a bonus action should you need it, which is definitely nice, but your primary gimmick is to add Rage bonus to damage on your Flurry of Blows, as often as you can, with unarmed strikes dealing 1d10+modifiers.
This concept would work a lot better if you rolled your stats and you rolled really, really well. At least good enough so that you can afford taking both Durable and Dwarven Fortitude feats.

That said, you'd probably want to pick Bear Totem Spirit, if for nothing else, then just for that resistance to nearly every damage type in the game.

I love Pwent! I seriously wanted to make him in a game i played, but I really didnt find the Battlerager strong enough, that being said, it does make a very cool build. Throw a little dip into fighter/brute in there and you can get some decent damage and utility. Or just swap Brute for the Barbarian.

[ToastyTobasco]

Throwing a couple ideas as I dont think they have been mentioned:

Dex Paladin/Monk (Mink of Vengance/Conquest?)

Rogue/Monk (Assassin/Shadow, Drunk/swash?)

Fighter/ Monk (Battlemaster/Any monk)

Ups, downs? Try vs. why would you ever?

[scoutsdoitbettr]

Another build Ive been wanting to make is a spear fighter build, sort of reminiscent of "Lancer" from the Fate series.

I would say i would build it like....Let me know if you would do differently, im actually really interested in this build

Human Variant (Dex, Wis)
Str 10, Dex 15(16), Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13(14), Cha 13
Kensei Monk 14/Fighter Battle Master 6
ASI x5
Dex+4, Wis+4, Feat

Fighter gives you the superiority dice and fighting style, Great Weapon Fighting and Dueling. Variant Human feat for Spear Mastery.

A cool variant to this build would be Kensei 17/Hexblade 3 and be able to summon your spear to you, it also works if you want to use a longbow instead of spear, but I cant remember the requirements for improved pact weapon.

[Arkhios]

Throwing a couple ideas as I dont think they have been mentioned:

1) Dex Paladin/Monk (Mink of Vengance/Conquest?)

2) Rogue/Monk (Assassin/Shadow, Drunk/swash?)

3) Fighter/ Monk (Battlemaster/Any monk)

Not to be a jerk, but did you read the first post at all?
Because, there are:
1) Dex Paladin/Monk: Avenger*/Kensei (Oath of Vengeance*).

2) Rogue/Monk: Drunk/Swash as well (Dwarf for sh!ts and giggles). Although, I left out Assassin/Shadow, so there's that, at least.

3) Two different iterations of Battlemaster/Monks: Kensei and "Martial Artist" are both monks. (Martial Artist = Open Hand Monk)

[ToastyTobasco]

Not to be a jerk, but did you read the first post at all?
Because, there are:
1) Dex Paladin/Monk: Avenger*/Kensei (Oath of Vengeance*).

2) Rogue/Monk: Drunk/Swash as well (Dwarf for sh!ts and giggles). Although, I left out Assassin/Shadow, so there's that, at least.

3) Two different iterations of Battlemaster/Monks: Kensei and "Martial Artist" are both monks. (Martial Artist = Open Hand Monk)

Whoops. Really sorry about that. The format of the first post threw me off. Was reading on mobile on a short break at work. Love the Dwarf Drunk.

[Jakinbandw]

Warlock / Monk can be a great multiclass, but it's not, never, an immediate, obvious/brainless choice. The simple fact you need 13 CHA means you just cannot start with 16 in DEX, WIS and CON (for maximum optimization) or with 14 CON (avoid negative bonus). You'll have to make a choice, with the most obvious one being to sacrifice WIS because at least you get Mage Armor invocation for AC. It also means you'll crave for ASIs, especially the first one, and you'll never max both DEX and WIS.

You could go half elf and have something like:
Str: 8
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 9
Wis: 16
Cha: 14

Not quite 14 con, but it's not too bad. And you have enough ASIs to take you to 20 in Dex and wis.

[Arkhios]

Whoops. Really sorry about that. The format of the first post threw me off. Was reading on mobile on a short break at work. Love the Dwarf Drunk.

No problem, that's definitely understandable.

I suppose the first post could be rearranged to be more clear. I'll see what I can do.

And sorry if I sounded bitter or something. Wasn't my intention. :)

You could go half elf and have something like:
Str: 8
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 9
Wis: 16
Cha: 14

Not quite 14 con, but it's not too bad. And you have enough ASIs to take you to 20 in Dex and wis.

Ooh, that's nice indeed. Mind if I add that to the OP?

I'll also add the requested Assassin/Shadowdancer.

[Jakinbandw]

Ooh, that's nice indeed. Mind if I add that to the OP?

I'll also add the requested Assassin/Shadowdancer.

Go ahead. :)

[ZorroGames]

To get back on track and to get away from a situation that is dangerously close to spiraling out of control, here's one pretty fun concept, although it is, again, one of the MAD concepts as well.

Mountain Dwarf
Str 16, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 9, Wis 13, Cha 8
Totem Warrior 3/Drunken Master 17
+4 Str, +4 Con

Spoiler: Shtick

Show

Basically a Brawler that hits particularly hard with fists. You won't get much higher than 17 AC with point-buy, but you'll have Dodge as a bonus action should you need it, which is definitely nice, but your primary gimmick is to add Rage bonus to damage on your Flurry of Blows, as often as you can, with unarmed strikes dealing 1d10+modifiers.
This concept would work a lot better if you rolled your stats and you rolled really, really well. At least good enough so that you can afford taking both Durable and Dwarven Fortitude feats.

That said, you'd probably want to pick Bear Totem Spirit, if for nothing else, then just for that resistance to nearly every damage type in the game.

I love any build with Mountain Dwarf but my first ever 5e character was an OH Mountain Dwarf Monk! Just now trying MCing using PeteNutButter’s guide to Ultimate Optimizer’s Multiclassing Guide so will keep this build in mind.

[Arkhios]

I love any build with Mountain Dwarf but my first ever 5e character was an OH Mountain Dwarf Monk! Just now trying MCing using PeteNutButter’s guide to Ultimate Optimizer’s Multiclassing Guide so will keep this build in mind.

Glad to hear that my thread has value even when compared to more crunchy optimizer's guides :P

To be fair, I would say my approach is a bit more "balanced" between flavor and function, rather than pure optimization which often ignores potential flavor conflicts.

That out of the way, I made my own conclusions about a Half-elf warlock/monk*, and added it to the OP, which I have also greatly improved in format (I hope!)

*I think I may have created a monster! Against a common belief, this one can actually be brokenly good!

Another build Ive been wanting to make is a spear fighter build, sort of reminiscent of "Lancer" from the Fate series.

I would say i would build it like....Let me know if you would do differently, im actually really interested in this build

Human Variant (Dex, Wis)
Str 10, Dex 15(16), Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13(14), Cha 13
Kensei Monk 14/Fighter Battle Master 6
ASI x5
Dex+4, Wis+4, Feat

Fighter gives you the superiority dice and fighting style, Great Weapon Fighting and Dueling. Variant Human feat for Spear Mastery.

A cool variant to this build would be Kensei 17/Hexblade 3 and be able to summon your spear to you, it also works if you want to use a longbow instead of spear, but I cant remember the requirements for improved pact weapon.

Those are both decent builds. Another alternative - kind of like a mix between the two builds you came up with - is to make an Eldritch Knight 3/Kensei 17. You get to bond with (and then, summon) up to 2 weapons (spear and longbow) which also may count as your monk weapons because of being kensei, and since you really don't need those spell slots for anything else than maybe utility (such as Shield and Find Familiar), you could focus in getting your monk level to 17 and allow each of your monk weapons to deal 1d10 damage.
Also, with EK you wouldn't need Cha 13 (nor Int at all, for that matter).

Your stats could be like this: Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 8.
If you're allowed to UA resources, you could indeed take Spear Mastery as your feat. But you could also take Mariner fighting style, to get a +1 bonus to AC when you're not wearing heavy armor or shield (which, as a monk, you definitely won't!)

[Arkhios]

Normally, I wouldn't double post, but this time I'm going to make an exception, as I'd like to hear, if the OP is easier to read, as well as hear comments about the various new builds I came up with.

For example, something as controversial as Evoker/Elementalist!

[scoutsdoitbettr]

Those are both decent builds. Another alternative - kind of like a mix between the two builds you came up with - is to make an Eldritch Knight 3/Kensei 17. You get to bond with (and then, summon) up to 2 weapons (spear and longbow) which also may count as your monk weapons because of being kensei, and since you really don't need those spell slots for anything else than maybe utility (such as Shield and Find Familiar), you could focus in getting your monk level to 17 and allow each of your monk weapons to deal 1d10 damage.
Also, with EK you wouldn't need Cha 13 (nor Int at all, for that matter).

Your stats could be like this: Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 8.
If you're allowed to UA resources, you could indeed take Spear Mastery as your feat. But you could also take Mariner fighting style, to get a +1 bonus to AC when you're not wearing heavy armor or shield (which, as a monk, you definitely won't!)

I like this, i completely forgot that EK got to summon their weapon. I need to look into this more. Im playing a bardlock right now but this may be my backup character.

[Citan]

Quick share of a concept that just makes Monk much much better for a small dip.

Spoiler: The greatest (or nearly) Monk Spy

Show

Whatever race
Moon Druid 2 / Way of 4 Elements 18 (late build)
Moon Druid 2 / Way of Shadows 18 (ealy build)
+2 Dex, +3* WIS, Observant*

Spoiler: Shtick

Show

Whatever race, start like a usual Monk, but raise ASI/Feats in a way that gets you Observant before level 8 and 18 WIS before level 16.
This concept plays around with the idea of creating an "Innocent Spy" that can just roams around freely and learn everything. You could even push the idea further and grab the Keen Memory feat to add insult to injury.

Basic idea?
At low level, you can already use the Wild Shape to get some THP instead of using Ki on Dodge, and gain some minor but useful abilities. You are already much better at scouting than a normal Monk.
You also get some self-healing and buffs to help over a day, or decent AOE for the time.

At mid-level (5-10), you are better than a Rogue simply because being morphed into an animal that fits into the environment means you don't necessarily need to sneak around, people may just notice but ignore you.
Shadow is obviously better here because he has spells that make him even better at sneaking.
Wild Shape is not good only for this though: transforming as an animal can instantly boost your speed much higher than normally, meaning every positioning related tactic you use gets improved: you could carry several friends to safety, or a pal into the thick, or grapple an enemy who thought himself safe in the backline right besides your party to gang upon...

At third tier, it's a wash: Shadow's spells are still very useful for many situations in which just going around as an animal won't cut it. But 4E gets Fly, which opens a great array of alternative paths, especially when paired with a tiny form (of course, you'd have to be careful on how to use it: whether pretty or not, a flying cat is bound to raise suspicion whatever happens). So Shadow would probably be the best bet on that spying aspect unless you have some idea of what to expect in your campaign. Now, 4E has other arguments: in fight, whenever sneaking was an option, you could raise some big diversions or prepare a nasty ambush opener for when your friends come at the door.

More importantly, both case, you get ability to *understand all -ALL- spoken languages*. How is that for spying, especially paired with Observant which gives you lip-reading?

Finally, at highest levels, both are crankinly good at spying, except 4E better: not only can you stack, like 4E, Empty Body on a Wild Shape, but 4E can even stack Fly onto it.
So you can be, for a full minute/10/60 depending on actual stack, an invisible flying creature with 10+40+30+60 speed (you have 'walking' creatures with at least 40 feet speed in every CR and size, 10 from Longstrider, 30 from Monk feature, and 60 from Fly).

What good is it for? Hell don't ask me.
But wouldn't it be extremely fun to play with from start to finish?

Truth is, the best way to go is actually with Open Hand for that "infiltration" thing: it means that, unless you are antagonizing people really powerful enough to get extremely good defenses everywhere they are, you have some ways to ambush and Quiver Palming people. and leave again totally undetected.
If you can get someone in your party to make you indectetable to magic, even better.

Technically you have other ways to reach the same result with other kind of multiclass (heavily gearing towards a Divine Soul Sorcerer based tri-class with a bit of Rogue or Warlock too, ).
But this builds keep progression derailment minimal, giving you interesting, worthy for the trade (imo) tools that keep synergizing with your Monk features. All for a minimal resource cost (since Ki and Wild Shape recharge on a short rest).