Erfworld 75, page 69

[Krelon]

I agree with Arkenputtyknife.

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Seeing so much off topic and no new contributions I think it's time for an update to feed the hungry minds.

[Zelig the Liar]

The msot fun tnhig to do wehn plepoe strat to get pckiy aoubt sneplilg and gmaamrr is to mses wtih tiher haeds and sartt mlsenislpig tihgns intloetianlny.

eidt: sllienpg

[Tekraen]

The msot fun tnhig to do wehn plepoe strat to get pckiy aoubt sneplilg and gmaamrr is to mses wtih tiher haeds and sartt mlsenislpig tihgns intloetianlny.

eidt: sllienpg

I hate you.

[Krelon]

The msot fun tnhig to do wehn plepoe strat to get pckiy aoubt sneplilg and gmaamrr is to mses wtih tiher haeds and sartt mlsenislpig tihgns intloetianlny.

eidt: sllienpg

nice.

what stands "intloetianlny" for ? ((soyrry to ask i figured out all the other words but english is not my netive, so a bit lsot here waht it means))

[Zelig the Liar]

intentionally :)

[spite48]

eidt: sllienpg

I thought your post was funny until I read the last line. Then I thought it was hillarious.

[SteveMB]

It seems to me that a straightforward victory for Team Stanley lays the groundwork for a rematch, and a straightforward victory for Team Ansom lays the groundwork for fugitive Stanley & Company looking for a comeback. Either one can have various wrinkles (and would need at least one or two) to make it interesting.

The latter scenario does raise the question of how Stanley provides upkeep for himself and whatever followers he retains without Gobwin Knob. While it's clearly possible for free-lancers to exist without a capital (that's what Jillian has been doing), there are obvious difficulties with Stanley finding employment as a mercenary (he's apparently made enemies of everybody within reach, he's known as a regicide, and he would almost certainly have an intolerably poor attitude about taking orders).

[Cruxador]

The msot fun tnhig to do wehn plepoe strat to get pckiy aoubt sneplilg and gmaamrr is to mses wtih tiher haeds and sartt mlsenislpig tihgns intloetianlny.

eidt: sllienpg

Interestingly enough, I can comepletly understand this. I think there is something where if the first an last letters are the some, you can totally scramble the middle and people can read it.

[galdon]

Er… what exactly were you expecting? It's not a fair fight. Never was. Parson is facing overwhelming force; we've known that from the start. It would be strange and disappointing if Ansom didn't stamp on his plans with all the brute force at his disposal. What makes it interesting is seeing how (and if) Parson and company can wrest their boops from this impossible situation.

Being disappointed with Erfworld because it isn't presenting an even fight is like being disappointed with War and Peace for not being science fiction.

i didnt say i was dissapointed with erfworld but with the way its going. is it that bad that i want to see strategy being used by both sides? thus far ansom has done nothing but get lucky and use his overwhelming number of soldiers rather than doing any sort of strategic planning.

DoD in a strategic sence would have been wiser to take one of these tactics:

1. bust down the front door and save your move in case of a bad turnout. they clearly had the resources to pull that off.

2. julian without webnar and the other guy and a stack and a half of gwiffons is 61% odds of wiping all the dwagons out, so, they could have been sent through the back door instead and had a much better chance than just 61%


instead he takes seemingly the worst strategic move, then follows it up with falling farther in the trap because his ego suddenly tells him that stanly would do something as stupid as unlink the eyeomancers just to fool him.

bassically he's a booping dumbboop who was somehow given command over the coalition. that kind of a comander its almost like the comic is trying to show off that any joe shmo can lead the coalition forces without ever being at any real risk.

[Theodoriph]

@Galdon

Ansom thought he was dealing with Stanley. And for Stanley, he didn't need much of a strategy. Once he gets back to his base (if he makes it), I expect him to turn over a new leaf (with respect to his tactics). I hope.

@Arkenputtyknife

Aww...but there's nothing more interesting than a discussion about British vs. American English. We could even throw in Canadian English and have a merry old time on the ruf talking ab00t it, eh?

[Ben]

They had the resources to attack 3 weaker dragons. Even then, they lost a bunch of guys. Attacking with the leaders and gumps clearly left him with good odds of winning... but it wasn't a sure thing. He played it safe, sending in cannon fodder to soften them up first, just as the guy with a superior force should. He wasn't expecting anything as sneaky as the "empty hex"; it's beyond what Stanley or his other warlords were capable of coming up with.
Jillian and her group are being kept in reserve, which is probably a sound tactical move. And when they come up against the wounded dwagons, they have a 61% chance of victory. Ansom seems to think that once he gets to that group, it'll be an easy victory... and sure, he's more aggressive than may be healthy with his own well-being, but Vinnie agrees with him. So:

1. Going in through the front door would conserve his move... but he'd be facing probably twice the force (1.67x as many stronger dwagons), and taking needless casualties.

2. They're his strategic reserve. They're a weaker force with greater move... you don't send them in first; you wait until the less valuable units take the brunt of the front-line fighting and send them in where they're needed, if they are at all. Plus it's 2500 schmuckers to Charlie if he wants to send them orders... he can certainly afford it, but he wants to avoid that.

So I wouldn't say Ansom is a tactical genius... but he's the kind of guy people want to fight for. Probably translates into a high leadership score, which as we all know is a bonus for everyone on your side. And genius or not, he's making reasonable moves considering his position and his character. Parson found the right bait (half the dwagons, which are the only forces of Stanley's that the coalition really fears), made the trap look real enough to lure Ansom in (and sacrificed some dwagons to do it), and presented enough of a threat (losing the rest of the siege) to make Ansom take a chance.
Given his situation, I think Ansom has been making sound tactical decisions.

Incidentally, it does seem a bit odd that Ansom's group has a fight on its hands against 3 dwagons, could take on 20+ wounded dwagons with a very good chance of success, Jillian's group has only a little better than even odds against the same wounded dwagons, but the two together have even odds against all 50 or so unwounded dwagons (since they both have more than 8 units, they have non-stacking stack bonuses, too, if that makes any sense).
I can only guess that dwagons have a huge pile of hit points, so the wounded ones have only a small fraction of the combat effectiveness of the fresh ones, and whoever's defending in the forest gets a substantial defensive bonus.

i didnt say i was dissapointed with erfworld but with the way its going. is it that bad that i want to see strategy being used by both sides? thus far ansom has done nothing but get lucky and use his overwhelming number of soldiers rather than doing any sort of strategic planning.

DoD in a strategic sence would have been wiser to take one of these tactics:

1. bust down the front door and save your move in case of a bad turnout. they clearly had the resources to pull that off.

2. julian without webnar and the other guy and a stack and a half of gwiffons is 61% odds of wiping all the dwagons out, so, they could have been sent through the back door instead and had a much better chance than just 61%


instead he takes seemingly the worst strategic move, then follows it up with falling farther in the trap because his ego suddenly tells him that stanly would do something as stupid as unlink the eyeomancers just to fool him.

bassically he's a booping dumbboop who was somehow given command over the coalition. that kind of a comander its almost like the comic is trying to show off that any joe shmo can lead the coalition forces without ever being at any real risk.

[ShiningTed]

Other than the bold leap into the centre hex, Ansom has been tactically shrewd throughout this turn - but then we know Vinnie plays a role in this (and some of it was anticipated, eg his circling the party platter to get at the back door). I still think Parson was taking an enormous gamble in leaving his best units in range of Jillian and the Archons: its a little too negligent for my liking, considering he is meant to be the perfect warlord (or at least a great gamer). You don't throw your air units into a fight and say, "well yeah there are enemy air units over there that can wipe them out on their turn but, you know, they probably won't for reasons I don't fully understand". Against a human player that would be risky - against AI (surely Parson has played CRPGs etc!) it would be suicidal. Parson should know better.

his ego suddenly tells him that stanley would do something as stupid as unlink the eyeomancers just to fool him.

If it hasn't been stated that the eyemancer link-up is a state secret (which I think it has but am not sure about) we can at least surmise it is a secret from the, errr, secrecy surrounding it, eg Bogroll not being allowed in the room.

One thing about these 'Erfworld X page Y' threads that spring up instantly is we know just when updates are made: we seem to be overdue two now I hope the guys are ok.

[Zelig the Liar]

We're not really overdue, since they're not on any regular schedule unless they've declared otherwise since posting that they were going to be updating randomly.

So we're really on a When It's Ready schedule, or as those of us in the online gaming culture are familiar with, Soon™

[the_tick_rules]

when do we get to see stanley going ballistic, it's gonna be worth the wait.

[Krelon]

when do we get to see stanley going ballistic, it's gonna be worth the wait.

huh?

Stanley fired from a catapult?

[factotum]

huh?

Stanley fired from a catapult?

"Going ballistic" = slang for "getting really angry".

[Justyn]

"Going ballistic" = slang for "getting really angry".

Actualy slang is a highly informal, nonstandard word. This is an idiom: a statement in which the literal meaning and order of the words in the statement is not what the statement actualy means.

I know that this is getting a little off topic, but I just wanted to point this out; it's kind of like people saying "jealousy/jealous" where they should have used "envy/envious".

[SteveMB]

If it hasn't been stated that the eyemancer link-up is a state secret (which I think it has but am not sure about) we can at least surmise it is a secret from the, errr, secrecy surrounding it, eg Bogroll not being allowed in the room.

It's fairly safe to say that the Coalition doesn't know about the eyemancer link-up. For one thing, if they knew that Stanley had omniscient-eye battlefield intel, Jillian's repeated captures and escapes would have seemed downright preposterous rather than merely suspicious.

One thing about these 'Erfworld X page Y' threads that spring up instantly is we know just when updates are made: we seem to be overdue two now I hope the guys are ok.

Rob was at DragonCon last weekend; he mentioned that he didn't expect to be back to two per week at least until after that.

[Ben]

Well, the dwagons didn't have much move left after their rampage, so Parson was limited in how far away he could hide them. And while he did know about the archons before he made his plan, he may not have known how strong they were until they were in the same hex as his forces. Without the archons, I don't think Jillian and the gwiffons stood much of a chance. They'd take a couple with them, but it's not nearly the danger it is with the 3 stewardesses as well. And let's not forget Wanda's assurances that Jillian is hers.

But yes, Parson is taking risks. He has to, in his position. He has a way to hit the column hard, maybe even capture the enemy warlord and the arkenpliers. He needs to do it, even if it involves risks, because if he does nothing, he's stuck in a siege he'll lose. Maybe he's taking more risks than he should, in hindsight... maybe he should have gone after only a couple of stacks of siege and cycled dwagons out of the city when they got closer. But then he wouldn't have taken out nearly as much, he'd have had no chance of taking out Ansom (that was one of his ideas, Fool's Mate, back in klog #3), and in 3 turns or so, they'd be knocking at his front door with some heavy stones.

Plus, on a more personal note, he needs to prove himself immediately, not in another couple of turns. Not sure how aware he was of the Tool's imminent decision to remove him as chief warlord, but as it turned out, if he'd waited any longer he wouldn't be able to enact any alternative plans. So perfect warlord? Maybe not. But he came up with a daring and effective plan, and if it turns out to fail, he's not going to be the one taking the flak.

Other than the bold leap into the centre hex, Ansom has been tactically shrewd throughout this turn - but then we know Vinnie plays a role in this (and some of it was anticipated, eg his circling the party platter to get at the back door). I still think Parson was taking an enormous gamble in leaving his best units in range of Jillian and the Archons: its a little too negligent for my liking, considering he is meant to be the perfect warlord (or at least a great gamer). You don't throw your air units into a fight and say, "well yeah there are enemy air units over there that can wipe them out on their turn but, you know, they probably won't for reasons I don't fully understand". Against a human player that would be risky - against AI (surely Parson has played CRPGs etc!) it would be suicidal. Parson should know better.
If it hasn't been stated that the eyemancer link-up is a state secret (which I think it has but am not sure about) we can at least surmise it is a secret from the, errr, secrecy surrounding it, eg Bogroll not being allowed in the room.

One thing about these 'Erfworld X page Y' threads that spring up instantly is we know just when updates are made: we seem to be overdue two now I hope the guys are ok.

[SteveMB]

But yes, Parson is taking risks. He has to, in his position. He has a way to hit the column hard, maybe even capture the enemy warlord and the arkenpliers. He needs to do it, even if it involves risks, because if he does nothing, he's stuck in a siege he'll lose. Maybe he's taking more risks than he should, in hindsight... maybe he should have gone after only a couple of stacks of siege and cycled dwagons out of the city when they got closer. But then he wouldn't have taken out nearly as much, he'd have had no chance of taking out Ansom (that was one of his ideas, Fool's Mate, back in klog #3), and in 3 turns or so, they'd be knocking at his front door with some heavy stones.

True. Also, taking several turns to reduce Ansom's siege train was not an option -- he has to finish the job while his window of opportunity (no air cover protecting the column) is still open.

It's unclear whether he knew that their "mole" was the warlord who would be likely to lead the air units that could reach the wounded dwagons; and we know that he isn't completely confident of Wanda's control (becuase he doesn't understand it, which is a mindset I definitely identify with). Ultimately, I think it came down to the fact that he saw a lake, realized that it would protect the wounded dwagons from all of Ansom's ground forces even if they were found, and figured that was the best he could do.

[Lombard]

So uh, what's happening again? I'm starting to forget the story and I have no motivation to go back and read over it all, can someone summarize please?

[Dr. T]

... Parson is obviously familiar with turn-based warfare. He mentioned that he was planning a scenario IRL much like what he is now caught in. It appeared that he played tabletop warfare games with his friends, which are always turn-based (or at least I'm unaware of any that are not), ...

Just for the notes the one exception I know of: In Ethiopian Chess you move figures without taking turns during the initial mobilisation phase. With the first capture you switch into turn mode. The very concept drives standard chess players mad. :-) Its great fun, especially with a few beers after a tournament.

[Ben]

Good points. I assumed that because the eyemancers could see how far away the air is (and knew something about its move, though that could be intel of the regular type), they could also see the warlord leading the stack... but that may not be a good assumption.

Lombard, my advice if you're losing interest is to take a break for a while, let it build up a backlog of a couple of weeks, then catch up. Hopefully the updates will be more regular then.
That being said, Parson is a gamer from our world who's been summoned to fight for Lord Stanley the Formerly Plaid, now the Tool, against the armies of the free world that have been assembled to oppose him. Parson is still trying to get a handle on the game-like mechanics of the universe, and is trying a daring gambit in a losing situation to cripple the enemy's forces with the ace up his sleeve, the dwagons. Ansom's forces are in the middle of a potentially deadly counterstrike, and we're waiting with bated breath for the next panel. For more of a recap, read the archives; they're good.

True. Also, taking several turns to reduce Ansom's siege train was not an option -- he has to finish the job while his window of opportunity (no air cover protecting the column) is still open.

It's unclear whether he knew that their "mole" was the warlord who would be likely to lead the air units that could reach the wounded dwagons; and we know that he isn't completely confident of Wanda's control (becuase he doesn't understand it, which is a mindset I definitely identify with). Ultimately, I think it came down to the fact that he saw a lake, realized that it would protect the wounded dwagons from all of Ansom's ground forces even if they were found, and figured that was the best he could do.

[sihnfahl]

Good points. I assumed that because the eyemancers could see how far away the air is (and knew something about its move, though that could be intel of the regular type), they could also see the warlord leading the stack... but that may not be a good assumption.

I would be a good assumption; remember the initial attempt to ambush Ansom by leading him into a Jillian Trap? They saw that Ansom didn't move into the hex, so they didn't trip the trap.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Just for the notes the one exception I know of: In Ethiopian Chess you move figures without taking turns during the initial mobilisation phase. With the first capture you switch into turn mode. The very concept drives standard chess players mad. :-) Its great fun, especially with a few beers after a tournament.

Turing Chess is another interesting one. It's best played in running shoes. The rules are just like normal chess, except there are no turns—and you have to run once around the house after moving. In some ways that makes it more like real warfare, because he who runs fast and thinks fast gets more moves.

It's also more like Erfworld in some ways. The hit-and-run tactic worked simply because the dwagons could keep striking as long as they had move left.

[SteveMB]

I would be a good assumption; remember the initial attempt to ambush Ansom by leading him into a Jillian Trap? They saw that Ansom didn't move into the hex, so they didn't trip the trap.

Also, we've seen an abstract closeup of Jillian and her gwiffon in the situation-room display, including what appears to be a stat readout similar to what Parson sees with his Stupid Meal glasses (and, presumably, similar to what native warlords and casters see normally).

To clarify, I meant that it's unclear whether Parson had been informed that the prisoner was likely to be the warlord assigned to lead the air units that could potentially (and in fact did) find the wounded dwagons. After the fact (i.e. once the air units start moving), everybody in the situation room knows that to be the case (the question then is whether the suggestion spell will hold).

[EvilJames]

Well that wasn't good. How are the writers going to deus ex this one back in line with the Parson-must-win plot? (I'm assuming that Parson doesn't just ignominously lose this campaign, because, well, what would be the point of that?)



From what I gather, WYPFIWYG - what you pay for is what you get with these Archons.

So yes, they probably get recompensed depending on how big the hammer is that they bring down on the enemy.

As I've said before, no one's going to be Deus exing anything just because things sometimes happen in the favor of one character or another does not make it Dues Ex Machina. Dues ex Machina is lazy sloppy writng that generally can only happen at the end of a story and puts everything back the way it was a fixing every bad thing that happened during the story (and thus negating the importance of anything that happened) so that a happy ending can be forced in when the writer has no idea how to make one. Calling things that constantly is insulting to the authors. so unless you intend to insult the authors please stop using that phrase.

[sihnfahl]

To clarify, I meant that it's unclear whether Parson had been informed that the prisoner was likely to be the warlord assigned to lead the air units that could potentially (and in fact did) find the wounded dwagons.

One would hope. After all, on Ansom's turn, Ansom moved quite a few peeps... err, gwiffons... into Jillian's hex, with orlies and pegataurs as backup.

Since the only two other warlords in the stack were Webinar (a 5) and Dora (a 2), it would make sense that Jillian (a 9) would lead those forces in any air search and destroy mission.

[SteveMB]

Since the only two other warlords in the stack were Webinar (a 5) and Dora (a 2), it would make sense that Jillian (a 9) would lead those forces in any air search and destroy mission.

True, but we don't even know for sure if Parson was informed (when he was first making and executing his plan) that the one who shows a "9" on the stat display is the same one Wanda worked her mojo on. It wasn't all that relevant to the original (ambush Ansom when he rides to the rescue just like always... well, almost always ) plan.

[sihnfahl]

True, but we don't even know for sure if Parson was informed (when he was first making and executing his plan) that the one who shows a "9" on the stat display is the same one Wanda worked her mojo on. It wasn't all that relevant to the original (ambush Ansom when he rides to the rescue just like always... well, almost always ) plan.

I'd hope Parson would notice...