Warlock Changes

[obeseboywonder]

I've been unhappy with the general design of the warlock, with eldritch blast spam and the agonizing blast invocation basically being a tax, and so my hope is that the following changes will allow other at-will damage options in the class to have time to shine without lowering the overall effectiveness of the class.

Mystic Arcanum:

• Extended Mystic Arcanum downward.
• Gain a once per day casting of a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th level spell at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th level respectively.

Pact of the Blade:

• When you attack with your pact weapon while it is in the form of a weapon that lacks the two-handed property, you can use your Charisma modifier instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls.

Agonizing Blast:

• Removed from the game.

I feel like the power level is roughly the same, but I could be wrong so let me know.

[Mongobear]

I've been unhappy with the general design of the warlock, with eldritch blast spam and the agonizing blast invocation basically being a tax, and so my hope is that the following changes will allow other at-will damage options in the class to have time to shine without lowering the overall effectiveness of the class.

Agonizing Blast is fine, the issue is that its too good for the way EB works.

Mystic Arcanum:

• Extended Mystic Arcanum downward.
• Gain a once per day casting of a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th level spell at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th level respectively.

Am I understanding this right in that you get 1 extra "spell slot" of each spell level? Might be a bit too strong, considering the Warlock is already swimming is spammable spell slots with Short Rests.

I think the Mystic Arcanum mechanic is fine, but the options for them are weak. May look into expanding their spell lists instead of changing the mechanic.

XGtE has some nice spells which could fit into Warlock spell lists depending on Pact Boon/Patron. (Steel Wind Strike for PotB anyone?)

Pact of the Blade:

• When you attack with your pact weapon while it is in the form of a weapon that lacks the two-handed property, you can use your Charisma modifier instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls.

I do this myself. I just allow PotB to sub Charisma instead for Str/Dex as well as give Medium Armor/Shield proficiency, and then make Imp. Pact Weapon from XGtE remove the ban of Two-Handers.

It doesnt even require you do alter Hexblade that much. I took these features away from the Archetype, and in exchange, I made Hexblade's Curse recharge on Short Rests. If you're going for that Patron, youre also likely going to be PotB anyways, these changes just allow a BladeLock for every Patron with comparable output to current RAW Hexblade.

Agonizing Blast:

• Removed from the game.

Not needed, just needs a minor tweak. You can only add the extra damage once per target per round like almost every other "add stat to damage" class feature. This doesn't prevent damage shennanigans from Hex, but it does keep AB spam somewhat controlled.

I feel like the power level is roughly the same, but I could be wrong so let me know.

Youre on the right path, but some of your changes were perhaps a little too much.

[Kuulvheysoon]

It doesnt even require you do alter Hexblade that much. I took these features away from the Archetype, and in exchange, I made Hexblade's Curse recharge on Short Rests. If you're going for that Patron, youre also likely going to be PotB anyways, these changes just allow a BladeLock for every Patron with comparable output to current RAW Hexblade.

Honestly, you probably don't even need to make that change to Hexblade's Curse. Medium armor proficiency (and shields!), along with the curse, is more than enough for the 1st level patron feature. Compare to Great Old One or Archfey.

[Mongobear]

Honestly, you probably don't even need to make that change to Hexblade's Curse. Medium armor proficiency (and shields!), along with the curse, is more than enough for the 1st level patron feature. Compare to Great Old One or Archfey.

the Armor/Shield proficiency and Cha substitution is part of regular Pact of the Blade, meaning any/all Patrons can gain it. Hexblade just gets the Curse, so 19-20 crit range, bonus damage, and healing when target is slain.

[obeseboywonder]

Agonizing Blast is fine, the issue is that its too good for the way EB works.

I did the math for a hexblade with eldritch blast vs just using a 2d6 weapon with hexblade curse active and they came out even for the most part without the invocation. Adding charisma just once puts eldritch blast well ahead of weapon attacks with the curse active, and I wanted pact of the blade at-will damage to at least be even.

Am I understanding this right in that you get 1 extra "spell slot" of each spell level? Might be a bit too strong, considering the Warlock is already swimming is spammable spell slots with Short Rests.

My campaigns don't feature too many short rests, usually 0-3 depending on how combat heavy a given day is, so warlocks usually aren't swimming in slots. The Mystic Arcana are more like pseudo spell slots. Once you pick a spell for Mystic Arcanum you can't change it, so much less flexibility than a true slot for a spells-known class. The idea was that some of the situational warlock/patron spells might see more use with Mystic Arcanum available at lower spell levels.

I do this myself. I just allow PotB to sub Charisma instead for Str/Dex as well as give Medium Armor/Shield proficiency, and then make Imp. Pact Weapon from XGtE remove the ban of Two-Handers.

I keep the Hexblade ability as is. It allows for ranged weapons, TWF, and two-handed weapons for players that want a more martial warlock than pact of the blade allows with other patrons. I had considered adding armor/shield proficiency for all pact of the blade warlocks, but it seemed like too much on top of using Charisma with weapon attacks.

Not needed, just needs a minor tweak. You can only add the extra damage once per target per round like almost every other "add stat to damage" class feature. This doesn't prevent damage shennanigans from Hex, but it does keep AB spam somewhat controlled..

The synergy from the multiple hits of eldritch blast that proc bonus damage from Hex/Hexblade's curse generally means it's the superior pseudo-at-will damage option (non-hexblade pact of the blades and the Celestial's Radiant Soul ability generally being outclassed by this damage). And even without Hex or the curse it's still one of the best cantrips in the game. Eldritch blast giving multiple attacks is the main reason I'm reluctant to allow agonizing blast, even if it only adds damage once.

At any rate, I'll look at the math again and see if I can come up with other options that work with your agonizing blast suggestion.

[Mongobear]

Remember, don't compare it to just what a Warlock is capable of, compare it yo other top contenders in the role. Just because a Hexblade does more melee damage than a Fiend Pact doesnt mean Hexblade is too strong or Fiend too weak, theyre both still doing less than a GWM BM Fighter or a PAM Zealot Barb.

And I dont expect every archetype for any single class to be equal to each other, but they should be better at the thing theyre meant to do than others. Hexblades should be better at weapon based combats, Celestial better at "supportive" combat/healing, Fiend at AoE/Burninating, etc.

Just make sure that if you buff/change something, it doesnt become better at everything than another archetype of the same class. You dont want Hexblade to automatically become a must take option, the others should still be functional compared to it, which is why I moved Cha attacks and armor proficiencies to the base classes' PotB, and "nerfed" HB by not giving them anything to replace, other than slightly more often Curses. It's already really strong, it doesnt need much to make up for anything taken away.

[Rebonack]

I've seen the suggestion of moving MA down to lower level spells before, but I honestly don't really like the idea. Warlock's whole thing is the at-will/short rest full caster guy. Crippling their main at-will damage option (agonizing blast) while giving them more per-day features is just homogenizing them with the Wizard and Sorcerer.

If anything, I wouldn't mind if they had more Invocations of the Agonizing Blast sort so that, if they felt so inclined, they could specialize in other non-eldritch blast cantrips.

[obeseboywonder]

The Hexblade using Eldritch blast w/ agonizing blast already does equal or better damage than the pact weapon when using the curse (the math will skew depending on feats, magic weapons, etc. but it generally holds true). I'm nerfing the ranged at-will damage of all Warlocks and allowing more spell choices, hopefully meaning that the patron specific spells/abilites are used and help support the different roles of different patrons. Removing agonizing blast puts emphasis on the weapon as your source of damage for the Hexblade, puts emphasis on the blasty spells for the Fiend, allows healing and radiant/fire spells to shine on the celestial, etc. I want eldritch blast to be decent back-up DPR option, or a solid control option if you invest invocations into it, but that's it.

It's something I'll have to test with actual play.

I've seen the suggestion of moving MA down to lower level spells before, but I honestly don't really like the idea. Warlock's whole thing is the at-will/short rest full caster guy. Crippling their main at-will damage option (agonizing blast) while giving them more per-day features is just homogenizing them with the Wizard and Sorcerer.

If anything, I wouldn't mind if they had more Invocations of the Agonizing Blast sort so that, if they felt so inclined, they could specialize in other non-eldritch blast cantrips.

It's probably just a difference of personal preference. I think having eldritch blast/agonizing blast makes all the warlocks feel samey and less unique. That is an interesting idea though regarding invocations that boost other cantrips. I'd have to look at the math, but maybe replacing agonizing blast with a generic bonus to all damaging cantrips would work too. I'd still be worried about applying the bonus to eldritch blast because of damage potential when combined with Hex/Hexblade's Curse, but it would depend on the exact bonus of the invocation.

[Mongobear]

The Hexblade using Eldritch blast w/ agonizing blast already does equal or better damage than the pact weapon when using the curse (the math will skew depending on feats, magic weapons, etc. but it generally holds true). I'm nerfing the ranged at-will damage of all Warlocks and allowing more spell choices, hopefully meaning that the patron specific spells/abilites are used and help support the different roles of different patrons. Removing agonizing blast puts emphasis on the weapon as your source of damage for the Hexblade, puts emphasis on the blasty spells for the Fiend, allows healing and radiant/fire spells to shine on the celestial, etc. I want eldritch blast to be decent back-up DPR option, or a solid control option if you invest invocations into it, but that's it.

It's something I'll have to test with actual play.



It's probably just a difference of personal preference. I think having eldritch blast/agonizing blast makes all the warlocks feel samey and less unique. That is an interesting idea though regarding invocations that boost other cantrips. I'd have to look at the math, but maybe replacing agonizing blast with a generic bonus to all damaging cantrips would work too. I'd still be worried about applying the bonus to eldritch blast because of damage potential when combined with Hex/Hexblade's Curse, but it would depend on the exact bonus of the invocation.

The problem isn't Agonizing Blast, it's with the way Eldritch Blast works when combined with it.

No other cantrip allows you to make multiple attack rolls, gaining extra chances to crit, proc Hex damage, bebefit from Hexblades Curse damage, etc. If you just changed EB to be a single attack roll, like Firebolt or any other Cantrip really, AB will be balanced. It's already benefitting from AB, as well as Repelling Blast, Eldritch Spear, and any other Invocations I cant think of right now. RAW AB just makes it way too strong.

This is why Hexblades can spam it and deal more damage than attacking with a weapon, EB as written gains too much from outside sources which boost damage. If you want Warlock Patrons to feel less "samey" change the ability that makes that happen, Eldritch Blast.

[Rebonack]

It's probably just a difference of personal preference. I think having eldritch blast/agonizing blast makes all the warlocks feel samey and less unique. That is an interesting idea though regarding invocations that boost other cantrips. I'd have to look at the math, but maybe replacing agonizing blast with a generic bonus to all damaging cantrips would work too. I'd still be worried about applying the bonus to eldritch blast because of damage potential when combined with Hex/Hexblade's Curse, but it would depend on the exact bonus of the invocation.

Probably. I tend to think of the Warlock as the magical martial guy, if that makes any sense. The class that conjures up magical weapons and whollops things with them. They're meant to be balanced (more or less) around an archer. They lose out on Sharp Shooter and the Archery style, but they get way more utility from their spell selection.

And I don't think a one-size-fits-all solution is a good one here. Rather, a different Invocation for each cantrip. That provides some real opportunity cost. The simplest route would be to make the other various damage boosting Invocations grant bonus damage equal to your Warlock level (generally lags behind AB/EB a bit in the damage department) and a second Invocation that increases utility ala Repelling Blast. That allows for the Invocations to be tuned to each spell to prevent outliers like Green Flame/Booming Blade from mucking everything up.

The problem isn't Agonizing Blast, it's with the way Eldritch Blast works when combined with it.

No other cantrip allows you to make multiple attack rolls, gaining extra chances to crit, proc Hex damage, bebefit from Hexblades Curse damage, etc.

I'm pretty sure that's intentional? AB/EB is balanced around a martial damage profile, not a caster. They still aren't going to be able to touch the damage output of a Battlemaster with Sharpshooter, but massively outstripping the at-will damage of a Sorcerer or Wizard is a feature, not a bug.

[Mongobear]

I'm pretty sure that's intentional? AB/EB is balanced around a martial damage profile, not a caster. They still aren't going to be able to touch the damage output of a Battlemaster with Sharpshooter, but massively outstripping the at-will damage of a Sorcerer or Wizard is a feature, not a bug.

Then they did a poor job balancing it that way.

There is only one class that can attack 4 time with a single Action. (Fighter) And not until 20th level. Everyone else gets a maximum of two, and maybe a Bonus Action attack.

If you went totally focused on making EB your main powerhouse attack, you could add bonus damage from 3 other sources--Hex, Hexblades Curse, Agonizing Blast, and could do so at a 600 ft range--Eldritch Spear + Spell Sniper, and with near infinite Advantage--Darkness + Devil's Sight, all without so much as a -5 from Sharpshooter/GWM, it just takes a turn or two of casting set-ups, which could be ignored if your party is helping with the Darkness, or you MCd Sorcerer for Quicken Spell or Shadow.

The design intent of Eldritch Blast breaks the balance, not the amount of synergy it has with other features/feats/spells. If they wanted it to be balanced around martial characters, it should be at most 2 rays, since only 1 class gets 4 attacks and even then not until 20th level. In 90% of actual games played at realistic level ranges (3-12) the design is broken, and having 3 attacks at that range with that much synergy will just out-perform everyone aside from another highly optimized build.

[Rebonack]

Then they did a poor job balancing it that way.

There is only one class that can attack 4 time with a single Action. (Fighter) And not until 20th level. Everyone else gets a maximum of two, and maybe a Bonus Action attack.

I think the Fighter's level 17 and level 20 class features should be switched, but that's neither here nor there. There's nothing particularly game warping about the damage output a Warlock can pull off.

If you went totally focused on making EB your main powerhouse attack, you could add bonus damage from 3 other sources--Hex, Hexblades Curse, Agonizing Blast, and could do so at a 600 ft range--Eldritch Spear + Spell Sniper, and with near infinite Advantage--Darkness + Devil's Sight, all without so much as a -5 from Sharpshooter/GWM, it just takes a turn or two of casting set-ups, which could be ignored if your party is helping with the Darkness, or you MCd Sorcerer for Quicken Spell or Shadow.

Umm. Hex and Curse take two turns to lay down since they're both bonus actions. And are cast from 90 and 30 feet, respectively, so that kinda defeats the purpose of picking up ESpear and SSniper for this example. Darkness and Hex can't be active at the same time, since they're both Concentration spells. If you're sinking this much prep into gibbing a monster, then that monster had better be exploding. It should also be considered that Curse can't target-hop until level 14. Most games never reach that high. So you've got here a combination of features that is pretty great for taking down boss monsters. Cool?

A SS battle-master doesn't need a couple turns of prep time. They just point at something they don't like and it goes away.

Unless you're fighting nothing but giant meat-walls (and your party has no idea how to focus fire) I've found that it's pretty rare for most monsters to survive more than a round.

The design intent of Eldritch Blast breaks the balance, not the amount of synergy it has with other features/feats/spells. If they wanted it to be balanced around martial characters, it should be at most 2 rays, since only 1 class gets 4 attacks and even then not until 20th level.

You're making the Monk feel sad and forgotten.

In 90% of actual games played at realistic level ranges (3-12) the design is broken, and having 3 attacks at that range with that much synergy will just out-perform everyone aside from another highly optimized build.

But... it doesn't? If we're just talking EB+AB+Hex (~42 damage) since 'heavily optimized builds' are apparently off the table, the main competition for ranged at will damage is a battle-master. Due to the combination of Archery and Precision Attack they can casually ignore Sharp Shooter's accuracy debuff and mulch (~60 damage) anything that looks at them funny. The battle-master also does this from further away since they don't need to get within 90' to Hex things.

[Mongobear]

I think the Fighter's level 17 and level 20 class features should be switched, but that's neither here nor there. There's nothing particularly game warping about the damage output a Warlock can pull off.

I agree with this, or at the same levels Cantrips boost.

It's "game warping" due to how easy it is to pull off. You dont need a Feat to break it, like SS/GWM. You don't particularly need Magic Items. You hardly need to worry about Damage Resistance/Immunity.

Umm. Hex and Curse take two turns to lay down since they're both bonus actions. And are cast from 90 and 30 feet, respectively, so that kinda defeats the purpose of picking up ESpear and SSniper for this example. Darkness and Hex can't be active at the same time, since they're both Concentration spells. If you're sinking this much prep into gibbing a monster, then that monster had better be exploding. It should also be considered that Curse can't target-hop until level 14. Most games never reach that high. So you've got here a combination of features that is pretty great for taking down boss monsters. Cool?

Yes, it takes two turns to set up, but during those turns you can still be firing slightly less powerful Eldritch Blasts after the buff spell. Sure, Darkness and Hex are mutually exclusive, but you're not the only class with access to Darkness, which was alluded to with my reference of having another party member "in the know" and willing to cast Darkness for you.

Sure, you need to be close for Hex/Curse initially, but you can then Kite the target infinitely with Repelling Blast, or Snipe them for atleast 10 rounds without moving before they ever get out of range with the 'pull closer' Invocation.

And yes, Curse is a 1/day resource until 14, but Hex is literally a one time cast for the entire day after 5th? level. 1d10+1d6+5 2-3 times a round from 150-300-600 feet is pretty strong, compared to a Martial class, who needs to be staring the big beasty in the nads.

A SS battle-master doesn't need a couple turns of prep time. They just point at something they don't like and it goes away.

Unless you're fighting nothing but giant meat-walls (and your party has no idea how to focus fire) I've found that it's pretty rare for most monsters to survive more than a round.

Unlike the EB+AB Warlock, a BM can run out of resources mid fight. They have what, 5-6 SD most of their career? If they have to burn one for Precision Attack, theyre dealing less damage, if theyre using one to add to damage and Shove or otherwise mess with their target, or just to add damage to a crit, they arent going to have them for later Fights if they cant Rest.

I'd be interested in seeing a realistic comparison between the two, same levels, same target, same resources and just see which can take down a "meat wall" quicker. Not white room DPR averages, actual rounds of combat versus the same target.

You're making the Monk feel sad and forgotten.

The Monk pretty much is sad and forgotten. Also, their bonus attacks require a Bonus Action, and until rather high levels, they deal less per attack. The only benefit they have is as Open Hand trying to stun/shove/trip targets to mess with their Actions.

But... it doesn't? If we're just talking EB+AB+Hex (~42 damage) since 'heavily optimized builds' are apparently off the table, the main competition for ranged at will damage is a battle-master. Due to the combination of Archery and Precision Attack they can casually ignore Sharp Shooter's accuracy debuff and mulch (~60 damage) anything that looks at them funny. The battle-master also does this from further away since they don't need to get within 90' to Hex things.

I know having the 600' Range is kind of pointless, I dont think ive ever actually seen a fight start more than 100' apart in actual play, so the range of Hex is mostly pointless, unless one side is retreating and the Warlock is just sitting there sniping away at them, or they have a key position in a Sniper's Nest or the ability to Fly 600' above the ground.

BMs are only competitive "ranged at will damage" as long as their SD last. Archery FS only saves them so much from the penalties of SS. Ive been in a party with a SS BM Fighter before, theyve burnt every SD trying to Nova the big bad in 1 or 2 rounds between Extra Attack, Haste(from a Friend), and/or Action Surge. After that, if the target's AC is high enough, SS becomes a liability.

Meanwhile the EB+AB Warlock got to 90ft, Hex'd and then started blowing them away with their infinite use Cantrip with no accuracy penalty. And with Advantage because the Drow/Tiefling party member casts Darkness on them, and uses their own Damage/Non-Concentration spells.

[Arceus]

Has there been a Hexblade errata I've not seen? Because last time I checked, Hexblade's Cure recharged on a long or short rest, so I'm not sure why people are talking about it as if it recharges on a long rest only.