Who was the second Darth in Star Wars?

[Yora]

I know there was a Dark Jedi in the Marvel Star Wars comics, and she might even have been a Sith, but her name was just Lumiya.

Heir to the Empire had Joruuth C'baoth, who wass simply a Dark Jedi, and Mara Jade, who was not even that.

And in the Tales of the Jedi, neither Marka Ragnos, nor Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, or Ulic Quel-Droma are Darths.

So when did the second Darth show up in Star Wars?

And since we're at it, when was the second character identified as a Sith? Darth Vader was called a Dark Lord of the Sith at some point, though not in the movies, and the Emperor in Return of the Jedi was just "the Emperor". Somehow I feel convinced that both these things were first introduced in the EU, but I actually can't think of any case before Episode 1.

[Fyraltari]

I know there was a Dark Jedi in the Marvel Star Wars comics, and she might even have been a Sith, but her name was just Lumiya.

Heir to the Empire had Joruuth C'baoth, who wass simply a Dark Jedi, and Mara Jade, who was not even that.

And in the Tales of the Jedi, neither Marka Ragnos, nor Freedon Nadd, Exar Kun, or Ulic Quel-Droma are Darths.

So when did the second Darth show up in Star Wars?

And since we're at it, when was the second character identified as a Sith? Darth Vader was called a Dark Lord of the Sith at some point, though not in the movies, and the Emperor in Return of the Jedi was just "the Emperor". Somehow I feel convinced that both these things were first introduced in the EU, but I actually can't think of any case before Episode 1.

I think Dark Lord of the Sith was what he was called in the script, as I know Zahn wanted to use that name but Lucas told him to change it (and he did, to "Noghri").

Asfor when "Darth" became the title of "Sith Lords", I am afraid we are looking at The Phantom Menace.

[jayem]

And since we're at it, when was the second character identified as a Sith? Darth Vader was called a Dark Lord of the Sith at some point, though not in the movies, and the Emperor in Return of the Jedi was just "the Emperor". Somehow I feel convinced that both these things were first introduced in the EU, but I actually can't think of any case before Episode 1.

Once you get 'Dark Lord of the Sith' (as supposed to a Lord of Anglesey), provided the events of ROTJ have occured I think it's pretty clear that the Emperor is more Sithy than Darth.
The game Jedi Knight I'm pretty sure was Jedi&Sith (duh Mysteries of the Sith).

[Darth Ultron]

And since we're at it, when was the second character identified as a Sith? Darth Vader was called a Dark Lord of the Sith at some point, though not in the movies, and the Emperor in Return of the Jedi was just "the Emperor". Somehow I feel convinced that both these things were first introduced in the EU, but I actually can't think of any case before Episode 1.

Like a lot of things, George Lucas, made most of this up right from the start...but it did not make it into the movies. It's not from the EU.

Spoiler: Script

Show

Star Wars: script



From the JOURNAL OF THE WHILLS by George Lucas

Revised Fourth Draft January 15, 1976

LUCASFILM LTD.

...

INTERIOR: REBEL BLOCKADE RUNNER -- MAIN HALLWAY.

The awesome, seven-foot-tall Dark Lord of the Sith makes his way into the blinding light of the main passageway.

The first time it gets used in public is in the Star Wars novelization.

The Emperor has always been Emperor Palpatine, again in the script and the novelization (my collectable action figure from Return of the Jedi says Emperor Palpatine too).


The second Darth is not until Darth Sidious and Darth Maul in The Phantom Menace. Technically, Darth Maul is second as his name is said, but both characters are in the movie.

Only after The Phantom Menace did the universe get flooded with Darths.

[Devonix]

Part of the reason for not having no other Darths for a while is that Darth was his name not his title. It only became a title later on.

His name was. First name Darth. Last name Vader. Title Dark Lord of the Sith

[Zevox]

Part of the reason for not having no other Darths for a while is that Darth was his name not his title. It only became a title later on.

His name was. First name Darth. Last name Vader. Title Dark Lord of the Sith

Makes sense. It was used like that at least once in A New Hope:

Vader: "When I left you I was but a learner. Now, I am the master."
Obi-Wan: "Only a master of evil, Darth."

But yeah, I think Ultron's right that "Darth" didn't get codified as a Sith title until the prequels. Hence why EU Sith that were created before then, like Exar Kun, didn't use it.

[Devonix]

Makes sense. It was used like that at least once in A New Hope:

Vader: "When I left you I was but a learner. Now, I am the master."
Obi-Wan: "Only a master of evil, Darth."

But yeah, I think Ultron's right that "Darth" didn't get codified as a Sith title until the prequels. Hence why EU Sith that were created before then, like Exar Kun, didn't use it.

Yep we have to remember. Darth wasn't an Alias. He wasn't hiding his identity. Darth was the name that the character was born with. It wasn't until later that it was retconned into a title that the character took.

[hamishspence]

Actually, the name the character was born with was clarified as Anakin Skywalker in ROTJ.

So, between ROTJ and the prequels, Darth Vader was a "new name" - and the prequels made it clear that the "Darth" bit was a title.

[Devonix]

Actually, the name the character was born with was clarified as Anakin Skywalker in ROTJ.

So, between ROTJ and the prequels, Darth Vader was a "new name" - and the prequels made it clear that the "Darth" bit was a title.

I'm more referring to what Lucas was thinking when he created the character and was writing and directing the first movie. Not what he changed it to in later films.

I try never to let things that happen years later influence a discussion about what happens earlier.

Vader was never intended to be anything but a man named Darth Vader. And then when they came up with the idea later that they also wanted him to be Anakin Skywalker. Darth Vader was still just a name not a title.

It being some Sith tradition came even later still. I believe it was a creation of the EU.

Edit. Going back and checking Lucas was also the one who retconned Darth into being a title, not an invention of the EU. So that means up until the filming of The Phantom Menace Darth was a proper name and not a title which is why there were no other Darths in the franchise.

[Yora]

Fascinating, I really could have sworn it must have been earlier. The EU of the 90s was already huge. But I think it almost all took place after Return of the Jedi when the line of Vader and the Emperor had ended, or in the ancient Old Republic when there were lots of Sith but none of which was called Darth.

[Darth Ultron]

Fascinating, I really could have sworn it must have been earlier. The EU of the 90s was already huge. But I think it almost all took place after Return of the Jedi when the line of Vader and the Emperor had ended, or in the ancient Old Republic when there were lots of Sith but none of which was called Darth.

George Lucas might have made everything from the start. He does create way, way, way more then is needed. Just about every character you see in the movies has a name, race name, and paragraph about them. And none of it is used in the movie, but it is all official.

Take IG-88. He is in The Empire Strikes Back for a couple seconds. His official '80's toy does identify him as IG-88. As do the books from that time. Of course, by now they have added a ton of stuff about the character.

It might just be a rumor, but Darth might be a short version of Dark Lord of the Sith, and it might be in the '77 Star wars notes.

[Devonix]

George Lucas might have made everything from the start. He does create way, way, way more then is needed. Just about every character you see in the movies has a name, race name, and paragraph about them. And none of it is used in the movie, but it is all official.

Take IG-88. He is in The Empire Strikes Back for a couple seconds. His official '80's toy does identify him as IG-88. As do the books from that time. Of course, by now they have added a ton of stuff about the character.

It might just be a rumor, but Darth might be a short version of Dark Lord of the Sith, and it might be in the '77 Star wars notes.

It 💯 percent isn't. This isn't in doubt. Darth was designed as the character's birth name. Anything to the contrary is trying to erase that history.

[Darth Ultron]

It 💯 percent isn't. This isn't in doubt. Darth was designed as the character's birth name. Anything to the contrary is trying to erase that history.

Or Darth Vader was for ''Dark Father", as Lucas has said.

[Peelee]

Or Darth Vader was for ''Dark Father", as Lucas has said.

If you take all the stuff Lucas said that wasn't incredibly contradictory or revisionist, sure.

[Devonix]

Or Darth Vader was for ''Dark Father", as Lucas has said.

That Darth Vader was never intended to be Luke's father, and that it was just a retcon that happened to be good has never really been in despute. It's simple fact. Everyone working on the film has said so. The script has said so. Darth Vader meaning Dark Father has never been anything other than an urban myth. And Lucas supporting it because it makes him look more profound than he is.

It's a good retcon, it improves the film, but it's just like many others.

It's the same thing as Superboy being changed to be a clone of Lex Luthor and Superman instead of who he originally was.

Or how Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch being Magneto's kids was a retcon. They're good retcons, but it doesn't change what they are. Not reveals, changes.

[Mechalich]

Fascinating, I really could have sworn it must have been earlier. The EU of the 90s was already huge. But I think it almost all took place after Return of the Jedi when the line of Vader and the Emperor had ended, or in the ancient Old Republic when there were lots of Sith but none of which was called Darth.

There was actually relatively little Old republic material prior to 1999, somewhat surprisingly. It consisted almost entirely of the Tales of the Jedi comics run. The various dark jedi and Sith Lords in that comic run used the title of Dark Lord instead of Darth. This also includes Sith who managed to get mentioned post-ROTJ in the timeline, such as Exar Kun as he originated in Tales. Interest in the era exploded in 2003, with the production of KOTOR, and the Darth title was applied extensively to characters thereafter.

Note that, due to the inter-connected nature of various Old Republic storylines because of Vitiate's centuries of villainy, essentially all use of the Darth title during that period (3964-3600 BBY) is attributable to his choice to start using the once neglected title again. Additionally, Darth Bane, and by extension all Rule of Two Sith, can be considered part of the same legacy as Bane studied using Revan's holocron. Vitiate presumably utilized the 'darth' title because he wished for a way to imply that his servants were greater than the 'lords' that had preceded him.

[Elanasaurus]

They're good retcons, but it doesn't change what they are. Not reveals, changes.

They're changes. Of course they change what the characters are.

[Jayngfet]

George Lucas might have made everything from the start. He does create way, way, way more then is needed. Just about every character you see in the movies has a name, race name, and paragraph about them. And none of it is used in the movie, but it is all official.

Take IG-88. He is in The Empire Strikes Back for a couple seconds. His official '80's toy does identify him as IG-88. As do the books from that time. Of course, by now they have added a ton of stuff about the character.

It might just be a rumor, but Darth might be a short version of Dark Lord of the Sith, and it might be in the '77 Star wars notes.

They super don't all have names. Despite the cantina scene being a bastion of over-explaining lore for a lot of people a good chunk of aliens don't actually have names yet. Most of the aliens with or without names didn't have a species title until the late 80's when the d6 edition came out and had to codify everything for play. Before that they all had generic nicknames like Hammerhead and Yak Face. Greg Costikyan has gone on at length in interview about how he basically had free reign to name them what he pleased. Before that even in the very earliest novels and guidebooks the best thing you could hope for is something like "Bib Fortuna's Species".

A small number of hero props and aliens had names. Maybe one or two had backstories beyond what was immediately necessary. The rest was added many years after the fact by whatever writer cared to add details to that extra. This is why a lot of them tend to repeat backstories when you look in closely(There are no less than three force sensitives running from the empire and two deposed heads of state fleeing persecution in that crowd along with several agents of either the rebellion or similar group.).

Yeah, Lucas made a lot more details but he needed, but most of that was for main characters. C-3PO's backstory in the phantom menace only has minor alterations from the original notes Lucas made in the 70's, up to and including references to what eventually became Watto. The skeleton for the prequels existed as a couple of vague pages written out years apart in addition to that and what's in the films, and those paragraphs are incredibly vague and full of details that are very different like Padme living for basically a whole extra year and an entire decade added to the timeline. Lucas had some plans but he changed them so rapidly and without warning and they were so broad strokes his vision for Star Wars isn't a tight plan so much as a vague idea he'll recognize when he sees it.

[Xihirli]

Plagueis was a Darth. Maybe the first one, making Palpatine the second.

[hamishspence]

Even in the newcanon, there was a Darth Bane, creator of the Rule of Two a thousand-odd years before ROTS.

[Yora]

If we go by internal timeline, we got Darth Revan way before that.

[Closet_Skeleton]

It might just be a rumor, but Darth might be a short version of Dark Lord of the Sith, and it might be in the '77 Star wars notes.

Lucas started his writing process by just making a list of Flash Gordon names that included most of the ones used in the Original trilogy and a few (like Mace Windu) that ended up being re-used for the prequels.

In the various early drafts those names got moved around a lot. The original Darth Vader was a random imperial officer with no plot importance while the evil force user character (they were called Sith even in the draft where the dark side was called the Bogan) was called Prince Espaa Valorum so any theories about the intended meaning are impossible. Being ripped off the villain from The Hidden Fortress he originally turned into a goodguy in the first draft. In a middle draft Valorum was renamed to Dodanna (latter the rebel general's name) before being changed to Darth Vader for the third draft.

Luke Skywalker was originally the Obi Wan character's name, the Luke character was the brothers Deak and Annikin Starkiller (after briefly considering having a female heroine like in The Hidden Fortress Lucas merged the brother's role into Leia despite the sister reveal not being planned until after ESB because apparently ripping off a Samurai film was too unoriginal so he went with a damsel in distress instead). Luke only got changed back from Starkiller to Skywalker shortly before filming.

The Sith were mentioned in the opening crawl in some of the drafts, but were cut for the final version.

[hamishspence]

If we go by internal timeline, we got Darth Revan way before that.

I'm thinking "newcanon/Lucascanon only" for the moment - Bane was referenced in the TPM novelization - which made him the chronologically earliest Darth that Lucas had invented.

[Fyraltari]

I'm thinking "newcanon/Lucascanon only" for the moment - Bane was referenced in the TPM novelization - which made him the chronologically earliest Darth that Lucas had invented.

He also appeared in the Clone Wars cartoon, voiced by Hamill which is three different kinds of awesome.

Interestingly Revan had a cameo in that show too but it was left on the cutting floor and so is non-canon.

[Jayngfet]

He also appeared in the Clone Wars cartoon, voiced by Hamill which is three different kinds of awesome.

Interestingly Revan had a cameo in that show too but it was left on the cutting floor and so is non-canon.

The Revan cameo didn't really work with what they wanted to set up or how the episode and characters were portrayed. The guy they were talking to was meant to be a literal god of darkness above even the Sith. For him to be vulnerable and taking cues from a Sith of any kind would undercut that.