Tucker's Kobold Experiment-Alpha Results

[Kaveman26]

Sometime back I started a thread alluding to a thought experiment/mad science endeavor seeking to determine if Tucker's Kobolds was something legitimately feasible. If you are unfamiliar with the concept I suggest a quick search.

Link to original thread:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...r-s-Experiment

I have some results to share from our first attempts at this process and I would love some feedback as we gear up for additional stress testing.

The Set Up:

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As kobolds we KNOW our role in life. We are aware of our reputation and disposable nature. We are not the average Kobolds. We are meta-aware of the fact that we are the downtrodden cannon fodder of monsters. People are always seeking to kill us for the easy gains and quick buck to be made from our meager wealth. Murder Hobos kick down doors to steal our sacred relics and we are sick of it.

Early on we made the decision to abandon martial types. A level 1 barbarian kobold might jump from 5 to 15 hp, but those HP are meaningless quick. To us the whole exercise comes down to this simple observation: If we are swinging a melee weapon or being hit by a melee weapon then we have lost.

Some notes from our end…We have a sacred relic the McGuffin of our people that we must protect. We have women and children that we will sacrifice our lives for. Our victory conditions include elimination of the enemy party, forcing them to flee, or negotiating a surrender. If we are TPK’d we lose. If they get our McGuffin we lose. If a single combatant from our side is still standing when the dust settles its still a victory. Also very importantly…if the enemy group throws up their hands and leaves only to prepare specifically to exterminate us…that counts as a win for us. So they can’t walk in and get pelted by a few bolts from cover and then turn tail and come back the next day with protection from arrows and stone shape pouring out their ears. The invaders will not be played as brain dead but they will have to use their own resources as listed in Codex.

The Combatants:

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Kobold Chief: 4th Cleric
Str 6 Dex 14 Con 8 Int 10 Wis 18 Cha 7 Feats: Siege Engineer, EWP Springal
Equipment: Leather Armor, Spear, Wand of Ray Enfeeblement, Sling (20 stones)

Kobold Champion: 3rd Wizard
Str 6 Dex 14 Con 8 Int 18 Wis 10 Cha 7 Feats: Siege Engineer, EWP Springal
Equipment: Spear, sling (20 stones) wand of Grease

Kobold PC 1 (x2) Alchemist: Str 6 Dex 14 Cont 8 Int 18 Wis 10 Cha 7 Feats: Point Blank Shot
Equipment: Leather Armor, Spear, Sling 20 stones, Wand of Acid Splash

Kobold PC 2 (x2) Witch: Str 6 Dex 14 Con 8 Int 18 Wis 10 Cha 7 Feat:Point Blank Shot Hex: Misfortune
Equipment: Wand of Ray of Frost, Sling 20 stones,

Kobold PC 3 (x2) Wizard: Str 6 Dex 14 Con 8 Int 18 Wis 10 Cha 7 Feat: Point Blank Shot
Equipment: Ray of Frost, Sling 20 stones

Inventory: 12,500
14 spears
14 slings (140 stones)
14 leather armor
50 doses Large Scorpion Venom (200) 1000
Breastplatex14 (200) 2800
Light Crossbow (35) x 14 490
500 Bolts 50
3 Wands of Acid Splash 1125
3 Wands of Ray of Frost 1125
Wand Ray of Enfeeble 750
Wand of Grease 750
12 Iron Pellet Grenades 600
10 Pit Trap Triggers 1000
5 Trap Door Triggers 200
1000 Flasks of Oil 100
10 Smokesticks 200
20 Tindertwig 20
200 Sling Stone 20
6 Tower Shield 180
Arrow Springal 1000
10 loads of ammo 200
585 in wrought iron/doors/rope and other building supplies

Invading Parties:

Level 1: Murder Hobos
Savage Mercenary Lvl 1 Barbarian
Cutpurse Level 1 Rogue
Cautious Mage 1 Wizard
Mercenary Healer 1 Cleric
Careful Initiate 1 Monk


Level 2: Crusaders
Daring Bravo 2 Fighter
Sail Master 2 Druid
Honorable Outcast 2 Paladin
Street Performer 2 Bard
Town Watcher 2 Ranger

Level 3: Murder Hobos
Whiteclaw Sorcerer 3 Sorcerer
Scholar Priest 3 Cleric
Battle Mage 3 Wizard
Traiterous Brigand 3 Fighter
Skilled Sniper 3 Rogue

Level 4: Pragmatic
Spry Ambusher 4 Monk
Border Guard 4 Ranger
Savage Plant Sage 4 Druid
Murderous Halfling 4 Fighter
Taunting Comedian 4 Bard

Level 5: Paranoid:
Jungle Wizard 5 Wizard
Noble Crusader 5 Cleric
Guild Initiate 5 Rogue
Cautious Archer 5 Fighter
Hammer of Justice 5 Paladin

Level 6: Crusaders
Forest Guardian 6 Barbarian
Evasive Slip 6 Druid
Tunnel Rat 6 Ranger
Storm Sorcerer 6 Sorc
Con Artist 6 Bard

Level 7: Murder Hobo
Freelance Thief 7 Rogue
Dog Rider Knight 7 Paladin
Thunder Wizard 7 Wizard
Vivisectionist 7 Cleric
Sundering Axe 7 Barbarian

Level 8: Paranoid
Axe Dancer Monk
Orc Slayer Ranger
Trickster Mage Sorc
Glaive Rager Barb
Sea Captain Druid

Level 9: Crusaders
Halfling Slinger Fighter
Death Priest Cleric
Cave Wizard
Deadly Spy Rogue
Sacred Sorcerer

Level 10: Pragmatic:
Pious Guard Paladin
Mother of Beasts Cleric
Prankster Illusionist Wizard
Séance Medium Bard
Pirate Queen Ranger

Level 11: Murder Hobo
Double Axe Fury Barbarian
Lucky Mage Sorcerer
Contract Killer Rogue
Mistress of High Places Druid
Elven Honorblade Paladin

Considerations derived from original thread:

*Abuse architecture to the fullest. As small combatants kobolds can fit in places the average medium sized PC can’t. Make them squeeze through confined spaces wherever possible.

*Abuse weight. Kobolds are frigging light. Terrain that allows for the kobold to pass but not the PC is a huge bonus.

*Cover…Cover…Cover. Murder holes and arrow slits are our plate armor.

*Traps. Make them as Acme Looney Tunes as possible. Make them fall, burn them and then punish them for burning. Add as much injury and insult to insult and injury as possible.

*Never let them rest. Force a retreat or complete surrender. No falling back to let them regroup and recover.

*We have a hard limit on depth of pit traps…but no limits on things that aren’t “traps”. So if we slap a trigger or cover on a pit trap that comes out of our operating budget. If we dig a hole and line it with spikes but leave it open and obvious…that is a freebie. If they happen to fall in the hole…so be it. We can run hazards and unfavorable terrain to our hearts content it just will be noticed and known that it’s there.

The Arena:

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It’s time to push these reptilian defenders to their limit. We have built a stronghold that even unpopulated would likely prove too much for some parties. The area around our base has been peppered with misinformation and misleading “hooks”. We have bribed the shell shocked lone survivor of a previous assault to spread the word that mercy is given to those who lay down their arms and exit peacefully. In addition several corpses have been planted with clues indicating the presence of a red dragon nearby, along with several red herrings indicating that the fortress is housed with undead. It is our hope to gain a few minutes where they are anticipating undead and or dragons and skew tactics accordingly.

The stronghold is quite frankly a murder mansion. It is not fit for actual use. We built something nightmarish and time permitting we are going to attempt to see if a group can clear it without us even inside. The actual testing phase will determine if we are right but I am confident we will get somewhere to level 9ish. A group with at least a day or two outside preparation and sufficient access to StoneShape would be able to negate a considerable amount of terrain advantage. This whole experiment assumes an average team without pre-advanced knowledge.
The teams we will be facing are drawn from the NPC Codex and will be played neither forum optimized nor brain dead kick down the door style. We will be using guidelines per each character as stated in Codex and each group has been assigned a Disposition. These will be the overall “Coaching” instructions used to steer their actions.
Dispositions:

Paranoid: Overly concerned with every noise, gust of wind or suspicious statue. Constantly on high alert, will bug out in adversity. Perception checks and Disable Device will flood their action agenda.

Murder Hobo: Will kill just about everything in sight and not adverse to burning things down. Aggressive and loot oriented. More of a kick down the door style.

Pragmatic: Will use restraint and reason. May even compromise or parley. Also not likely to run at sight of conflict.

Crusaders: They are on a mission and nothing will dissuade them from that mission. Will fight to the last. No retreat. No Surrender.


We have 22 total combatants and one main entrance to our lair. We have lined the entrance with dust and flour along with all manner of random noise makers. The sound is a fall back as we are leveraging the natural advantages of the raging river which runs under level 1 to jack up Perception checks for sound. In downtime the majority of our force is assembled in the space between the walls for the level 1 “Crypt” area. As we are clued in on people approaching the PC’s and warriors will split up to assigned areas to begin observation and initial guerilla tactics.

Overall Strategic Objectives:

Size plays a Huge element in our gameplan. We recognize small PC’s as extra dangerous independent of their actual role.

Any PC that demonstrates anti trap ability AKA Rogues, Bards, Rangers will draw priority. A Halfling rogue would be the Alpha target for example.

Summon Monster Counter Planning: Most of our traps are manually or weight triggered. Celestial Badgers can run around like mad and not be a nuisance.

We are focusing Ability Damage towards Strength. This plays into the fact that Climb is going to get traction and we want failed climb checks. If we can sap their brawn and make doors a bigger problem then we are incrementally winning. Secondarily we are going to be paying close attention to carrying capacity. If a Str 10 wizard gets weakened to a 6 then he can only carry something like 16 pounds in a light load. Medium or heavy Load imposes ability check and movement penalties. We are cognizant of the fact that 10 str is far easier to attack than 50HP. If we can force them into penalties for Strength that double for penalties to ability scores then suddenly those pit traps are pulling double and triple duty.
Level 1: Crypt

This was once a burial site inside a mountain. It is compromised only of a few rooms with some gratuitous pit traps and loads of murderholes. Each murderhole is from an elevated position and the hallways are a separate system from the crypt itself. The murderhole hallways are built for us, with uneven dips in terrain creating difficult passage for anything over 60 or so pounds. There are a pair of trap door bridges that throw anything walking across into an underground river that spills people off a waterfall. The rear of the crypt level has some ladders designed to snap under weight greater than 60 pounds and a vertical wall heading up to level 2. The Well has a large net awaiting at the top weighted with several boulders that would snag and pitch anyone caught into the caverns associated with the underground river.

Level 2: The Culling Fields

A custom designed maze of dead ends, rooms dedicated strictly to traps and fake doors. Everything is designed to force climb checks and punish medium or large characters. Also a separate access system with further elevated murder holes and multiple blockades. Way too many doors to be practical it is enough to drive a paranoid group crazy. Designed to isolate and allow the invaders to be sapped and punished at every turn. Almost no area where large scale spells or group can set up for attack.

Level 3: The Killing Ground

If they make it this far we are in trouble. The higher level crusader groups will be taxed but not crippled. They will be angry and looking for blood. It is here we will obliged to give it to them. Volley attacks to attempt to cripple or eliminate the biggest threats will certainly see retaliation and a body count. We will do our best to pepper attacks from all sides and have room to scurry away but at this point we will have to stand and fight with more than a hit and run. This level is like a bizzaro world trench warfare where we will rig deadfall traps, rolling boulders, oil pits lit to burn and obstacles to hamper movement

Stuff We Are Terrfied Of:

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Magic Missile: This is virtually an instant kill spell against the majority of our 22 combatants. Total Cover is our first and most consistent defense. They can’t target what they can’t see and we plan on staying hidden.

Earth Glide: A druid who can walk through solid stone or any other character that attains same capability (earth based sorcerer?) can bypass way too much of our defense system. To that end we are layering sheets of iron attached to the majority of walls and sinking a chunk of our resources in that investment. I think there is a druid in the NPC Codex who is stated to become a large earth elemental and glide through the walls as a standard operating procedure. That could be instant death for us.

Cloudkill: Our lay out ensures that if we get caught in something like this they will too.

Reduce Person: As we get higher a dwarf barbarian shrunk to small size with some buff spells will be a wrecking ball. There will be consistent choke points where even a small character will have to squeeze through and should we get a mini berserker or the like our goal is to draw them as far away as possible, throw doors in his face and wait to isolate him and contain. If we can stay a step ahead we split the party and can probably harry even a tankier character to death.

Channel Energy: Clerics at higher levels will be able to channel wash away a big chunk of damage numerous times. If we can prevent them from ever really being clumped together that will help diminish the returns. The fact that we might get healed too is meaningless, few outside the chief will survive a hit at higher levels. We are undamaged or dead, not much in between.

Some Maps:

I was unable to get the pictures of our maps to load in post. PM me and I will email them to you as reference.

[Kaveman26]

Level 1: Not Much Surprise Here

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To be frank, we were ready to skip Levels 1 and 2 all altogether as we didn't expect there to be much challenge. I'm glad we didn't because it revealed some useful details to us.

Level 1: Murder Hobos
Savage Mercenary Lvl 1 Barbarian
Cutpurse Level 1 Rogue
Cautious Mage 1 Wizard
Mercenary Healer 1 Cleric
Careful Initiate 1 Monk


Worth Noting: The barbarian as listed in Codex does not have a ranged weapon.


We had a few friends act as a sort of Red Team. They had no knowledge of the layout or disposition of what they were facing, simply given the nameless PC's and instructed to act according to their group's disposition. The rest of us acted as mini-generals of the kobold force.


Here's how it played out...

The barbarian comes in at the front, with monk bringing up the rear. As soon as they are inside the scouts who monitor the entrance start sending word along that invaders have arrived. Unable to move more than 10 feet a round, the barbarian and monk both come under crossbow fire from the murder slits. The monk is knocked into negatives at the onset of round 1. The barbarian eats a bolt and tries to shimmy up the wall to poke through the holes. A few ineffective missiles are returned and miss badly. The second round sees the cleric eat a pair of bolts that almost drop him and he chugs a curative potion. The barbarian takes another shot and elects to attempt rushing to open space...he triggers the first bear trap and muscles his way forward with the trap still attached. The rogue takes some strength damage from the poison and they all bull rush their way forward on the barbarian's heels to try and find open space...the hobbled barbarian triggers the mine cart trap and ends up using the emptied mine cart as a hat...holding it overhead for cover. The cleric and rogue both go down to bolts and we chuckle for a few rounds as we pepper the lower track with oil and burn it. The barbarian actually makes it out of the tunnels alive, albeit badly burned. The rest of the party is killed. We lose one kobold.

What we learned:

*Stack the front. We had everyone spread out and it made it so that we had too many archers out of range or implausible to respond quick enough. We elected to frontload more of the entrance from the onset.

*Climb/Jump is harsh from a standing position. The barbarian would have needed something ridiculous like a 25 to jump vertically 4 feet from a standing position despite having walls to brace himself on either side.

Level 2: To the Death!

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Level 2: Crusaders
Daring Bravo 2 Fighter
Sail Master 2 Druid
Honorable Outcast 2 Paladin
Street Performer 2 Bard
Town Watcher 2 Ranger


Worth Noting:

Gnome Fighter and Halfling Ranger...we have two targets which will gain high priority. Small is dangerous to us.


How it Played Out:

]The Halfling Ranger leads the group inside and is light enough and small enough not to suffer the same penalties as the larger characters. This means no penalties to attack, no AC penalties and the ability to actually move more than 10 feet a round. The gnome fighter is in the rear...which benefits us. When we spot the Halfling in point position examining the ground and holding a bow we have our Alpha enemy sighted in. With multiple missile weapons firing at the ranger and fighter our decision to front load helps enormously. Nothing is held back as we lace poison arrows and drop oil and tindertwigs to light everything up. Obscuring Mist from the druid almost hurts them more than us as we simply let things burn and fall back. The ranger tries to sneak away from the midst and ends up triggering a bear trap. The PC wizards pepper him with acid orbs and enfeeblement. We lose three archers and a PC wizard but kill the ranger and fighter quite quickly. The remaining party uses their healing potions and some additional cover to get past the mine cart and they also choose the wrong path leading to the first dead end. They start to get the timing of our shoot and duck strategy and we lose a few more archers in the process.

They actually survive the first pit trap room and the Orc Paladin ends up becoming the last one standing, he poetically fails the reflex save to avoid falling into the river and is swept away.

[Kaveman26]

Level 3: Three Primary Casters

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Worth Noting: Nothing in particular


This was more attrition than we expected. With three casters, two of whom can magic missile and a good array of healing we had to drag this one out a bit. They put the rogue in front and used obscuring mist quite quickly. Several fortunate rolls saw them avoid the mine cart and the first array of bear traps. They were also the first group to turn left at first fork which avoided a dead end and caused several of our archers to footslog a looooonnnnngg path around to get back in a serviceable position. We sniped at the rogue as much as possible and while healing potions and cure spells washed away our piddling damage the strength damage left the rogue and fighter unable to move with all their gear. Without a mindset of fighting to the death it was decided they would bug out once they realized it was just going to be a snipe fest from cover. The lack of small characters with the layout is proving murderous. Anyone in a squeezed position is taking a -4 to AC and a -4 to attack, and their movement rates are cut in half.

Level 4: The first real challenge

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Worth Noting: A few small characters including a bard with animate rope.


This one was a Benny Hill Montage. The slightly more cautious level four party with 3 separate small characters was a bit scary. We peppered them hard from the onset with bolts and flaming oil. Instead of pushing forward they elected to come straight up with virtually all of them climbing the walls. Grease managed to slip them back down, but the bard managed to reach the murderhole and he braced himself against the wall and managed to get a rope in. The druid managed an entangle to lock us down within the sniper's track and for the first time we are breached.

We pay a heavy toll. Eventually the split party suffers from their small characters being separated and we end up in a fighting retreat all the way back to the well. When we manage to kill the bard the monk and bard fall back and our archers on the far side harry the lower bound characters to the point where they elect to leave.

[Angrith]

Excellent! I was looking forward to these results.

[noob]

How about a siege experiment where wizards use divination and such thing to discover all the secret entrances and get soldiers to watch them and then they start flooding them with dangerous things(such as noxious gases or acid or just regular lava) and then the wizards keeps using divination to guess where the kobolds will dig the next exits and send soldiers to watch the next exits.(soldiers are in fact super cheap to hire in most dnd settings due to pricing errors)
Of course at each and every step nobody enters any kobold build structure(and they build outposts, towers and trenches on the surface to watch around)

[Kaveman26]

Level 5: Thrusters Online

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Worth Noting: Cautious Archer is a bow spec fighter who can actually hit on something other than a natural 20 when we are under cover...if he is not squeezed

3rd level spells are enabled for casters now. That means Flight...


Level 5: Paranoid:
Jungle Wizard 5 Wizard
Noble Crusader 5 Cleric
Guild Initiate 5 Rogue
Cautious Archer 5 Fighter
Hammer of Justice 5 Paladin



How it Played Out:

Our Red Team now has a decent understanding of the first several sections of the dungeon lay out. While we are all doing our best to avoid "seeing the future" I.E. letting our foreknowledge affect the outcome that potential future sight is reflected in how they proceed with entering the structure. They have elected to really amp up the paranoid in their approach.

The Halfling rogue is buffed with mage armor and resist energy (fire) before even setting foot inside. He makes a careful cautious entry into the dungeon and starts examining for traps etc. With a solo character inside we are in no rush to ambush or startle him. The rogue unengaged locates and disables the first series of bear traps and avoids the mining cart. He successfully navigates the dead end T section while constantly being tracked from above. We are reasonably certain that he knows something is skulking in walls but we have not revealed ourselves. The PC kobolds get word to the archers that we are going to let the rogue reach the first main chamber if he so chooses.

With no aggressive acts and traps being disabled the Halfling does come all the way to the first door. We have two warriors and two PC's acting as a rearguard to scout the entrance for any other intruders and they notice some of the debris and dust being dislodged from the floor. An invisible character is trying to sneak in as well.

The remaining 18 combatants including the chief and our champion are lining the first open room and waiting. When the rogue enters the room he takes a long scan around the room and spots three of the four pit traps. The bad news is that with Mage Armor and being out in the open without movement limitations his AC is 22 and we aren’t exactly Deadshot. We are looking at 18 or better to hit him in the open, but fortunately we have a lot of shots. The Chief manages to hit him with a ray of enfeeblement and we manage to get two bolts with poison to land. His fort saves are less than stellar and he fails both saves. His strength dips dangerously low and he elects to make a break for it. A 19 sees one additional arrow hit him the following round and his strength hits zero. The invisible wizard (who we can actually partially see) arrives and burn the entire hallway leading into the main room. He leaves the incapacitated the Halfling behind and starts to flee back out. The movement penalties are hell on him and we manage to string out enough archers and oil to bring him down. The remaining party abandons their comrades and bug out.

Level 6: Kill Screen

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Worth Noting:

*Druids have wild shape enabled.
*Flight is a concern
*Gaseous Form is a concern
*As Crusaders they will not retreat or surrender


Level 6: Crusaders
Forest Guardian 6 Barbarian
Evasive Slip 6 Druid
Tunnel Rat 6 Ranger
Storm Sorcerer 6 Sorc
Con Artist 6 Bard


This was the site of our first train wreck. The druid by himself was a TPK risk. He had access to wild shape, can summon small elementals, is a small character, and had gaseous form prepped on spell list. The Sorcerer has scroll/potions of gaseous form and flight. Within a few rounds of their arrival the tunnel rat ranger is turned gaseous and gains access to the upper murder track. The druid is gaseous and has access to the upper murder track where he starts summoning small elementals and the barbarian is given flight, so he begins smashing the walls to widen our murder holes into squeezable spaces.

Almost from the first moments we are forced to surrender ground and lose our tactical advantages. There are four choke points where even a small character must squeeze through and we go scorched earth tossing oil behind us and lighting as well retreat all the way back to level 2. We arrange a few shoot and run spots where they have to squeeze through but for the most we are giving up level one entirely. A pittance of strength damage and physical damage are inflicted by the time they have the entire party up in the murder tracks and begin slowly working their way around the long way.

We abandon level 1 and mass evacuate to level 2.

To be fair...if the druid doesn't break gaseous form and simply scouts the entire complex we lose. He chose to break form once in elevated position and they burned second casting on the tunnel rat ranger so by the time they circle around to level 2 we have some better footing.

Level 2 nearly breaks the Red Team. All semblance of fun is tossed out the window. The layout and aggravation is causing them legitimate anger. We trounced the first five NPC teams and they were banking on Sixth level wrecking us. It takes FOREVER but we manage to cripple the druid and ranger. The rest fight valiantly and claim a butcher's toll in retribution but eventually the tide of bolts and acid orbs claims the sixth level npc group. By the end four of the six PC's are dead, the 3rd level champion is dead and all but 1 warrior are dead on our end. Every poison arrow consumed and a substantial quantity of our grenades with it.

We re-run this a second time where the druid holds gaseous form to scout the entire complex and we get wiped.

A bit more to come...

[tensai_oni]

Level 2 nearly breaks the Red Team. All semblance of fun is tossed out the window. The layout and aggravation is causing them legitimate anger.

I feel like that describes Tucker's Kobolds in general.

[Haldir]

I feel like not having sealed trapped rooms is a huge oversight on the Kobolds part. Leading people into rooms and locking them in is a basic strategy. Also, why no collapsing tunnels? I love this concept, but you're not truly giving the kobolds every advantage they should easily have. Pit traps and bear traps and mining carts, but no basic "just knock out the supports!"

weak.

[Kaveman26]

Level 7: A Familiar Death

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We were actually pretty stoked about this configuration. Couple big useless melee bodies, no one with flight or gaseous form prepared...there is an evoker and a small character but without floating through the walls we are confident we can outlast the spells.

"Hey doesn't the evoker have protection from arrows?"

"It will run out eventually"

Bluntly speaking we started getting some swagger in our step. Then one of our Red Team associates made a simple observation...

"Hey the evoker has improved familiar...he has an Imp"

"Imps aren't that dangerous" we mocked...

Uhm....turns out when you are a kobold they are dangerous.

DR 5/Good Or Silver that we can't bypass...(small light crossbow does 1d6+1 at point blank range...so max 7)

Immunity to Fire...flaming oil is out
Acid Resist 10...so acid orb is out...
Immune to Poison...
Cold Resist 10...so ray of frost is out
And Fast Healing

The Imp wrecks us. At one point we try to swarm it...and it flies out of our meager range. Our best hope was high concentrated volleys...but it doesn't have to engage us like that...it can just keep using invisibility and disengage...let the fast healing work it's literal magic and then come sting us again. We also realize that pinning it might be even worse. No single fighter in the warren has a strength bonus, so our spears are more useless than the crossbows. IF...IF we managed to pin it and wrap in up in ropes to the point of cocooning it then maybe we can chuck it down a pit trap like a bizarre devil yo-yo. But that is a big stretch.

We experience our first TPK...

To the Imp by itself.

[Florian]

@Kaveman26:

You´re using 3E/PF, what did you expect? Tucker´s Kobolds worked in D&D/AD&D because the system performance bottom and ceiling was capped and heroes and monsters had a good chance to stay relevant/dangerous at each level, something that doesn't happen with the open ended growth nature of the d20 system, same thing as why Leadership and some forms of Minionmancy are practically useless when you use the full system.

[Tohron]

How much would you have to sacrifice to fit a Wand of Magic Missile into your equipment list? Seems like that would be one option against high AC or high DR/resist (except force) opponents. Another option against high DR/resist or (if you reach that point) spell resistance would be collapsing tunnels or dropping heavy objects on your opponents.

[Set]

Sometime back I started a thread alluding to a thought experiment/mad science endeavor seeking to determine if Tucker's Kobolds was something legitimately feasible.

This is a fun read! We attempted something like this, many years ago, and our tweaks were that the second area included some water-flooded areas, in which the kobolds traveled (or pulled goods) by raft. The water itself was only a few feet deep, and one of the few areas in the complex where medium-sized people could stand upright, but all sorts of traps lurked below the surface of the mucky water (rusty metal traps, some designed to trap and hold feet like bear traps, other essentially like caltrops, intended to lame people). A medium sized character could also lie flat on one of the rafts to avoid these traps (and a small sized character could more easily swim right over them). The last room had netting along the walls, and dozens of normally non-combatant types would scamper up these 'climbing walls' to be out of melee range (of anyone without reach, anyway), while throwing tanglefoot bags, javelins, alchemist's fire and acid, etc. Again, caltrops were also used in this last room, to try and reduce enemy mobility, and a scroll of pyrotechnics created a cloud of choking smoke that cut down on enemy long-range attacks (with the dozen or so clinging to the walls concentrating fire on anyone leaving the smoke).

Tanglefoot bags (and / or weighted nets) were a great way to bring down ACs to a more manageable level (since the kobolds generally sucked at hitting the PCs) temporarily entangling foes.

Unsurprisingly, most of the kobold defenders died, but they were holding the line so that they could evacuate their eggs and stuff, so it wasn't a total loss for them. (Although the campaign didn't really explore what happened to the survivors, they might have promptly been eaten by ghouls or something after losing their defensible warrens...)

[Spamotron]

@Kaveman26:

You´re using 3E/PF, what did you expect? Tucker´s Kobolds worked in D&D/AD&D because the system performance bottom and ceiling was capped and heroes and monsters had a good chance to stay relevant/dangerous at each level, something that doesn't happen with the open ended growth nature of the d20 system, same thing as why Leadership and some forms of Minionmancy are practically useless when you use the full system.

Tucker himself noted that if his PCs had gone after the Kobolds with everything they had the Kobolds would have been toast. In his dungeon the Kobolds were an obstacle on the way to the real threats that the players didn't want to waste any more time or resources than they had to to get past. Which is part of what made them so annoying.

In Kaveman's scenario the Kobolds are the main foe the adventurers must outright defeat to achieve their goals. A party of 6th or 7th level adventures devoting 100% of their resources to an encounter is pretty terrifying in just about any DnD derived game.

[jojo]

@Kaveman26:

You´re using 3E/PF, what did you expect? Tucker´s Kobolds worked in D&D/AD&D because the system performance bottom and ceiling was capped and heroes and monsters had a good chance to stay relevant/dangerous at each level, something that doesn't happen with the open ended growth nature of the d20 system, same thing as why Leadership and some forms of Minionmancy are practically useless when you use the full system.

That certainly is one of the issues with running Tucker's Kobolds in 3e/PF. The other issue to consider, as @Spamotron mentions, is that Tucker's Kobolds relied on homebrew mechanics even in 2e. Specifically what made the little f***ers so deadly was the ability of individual Kobolds to advance based on EXP and the ability of the basic ones to split-move and fire.

In 5e "True" Tucker's Kobolds are conceptually viable even without homebrew since Bonded Accuracy and Action Economy are absolutely soul-crushing.

Tucker himself noted that if his PCs had gone after the Kobolds with everything they had the Kobolds would have been toast. In his dungeon the Kobolds were an obstacle on the way to the real threats that the players didn't want to waste any more time or resources than they had to to get past. Which is part of what made them so annoying.

In Kaveman's scenario the Kobolds are the main foe the adventurers must outright defeat to achieve their goals. A party of 6th or 7th level adventures devoting 100% of their resources to an encounter is pretty terrifying in just about any DnD derived game.

I don't recall ever seeing anything that supports the idea that the creator of Tucker's Kobolds thought them anything less than lethal.

Overall, when I've run Tucker's Kobolds in the past I've never had a party "solve" them, let alone "nova" them, even at level 10+

Spoiler: Tuk'Hher's Kobolds

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My general fluff makes them minions of an optimized lich (Chezelik the "Arch-Ruiner", Pronounced "Cheese-Lich") that one of my players built a long time ago to screw with a group of us that had run through the Tomb of Horrors too many times while he was DMing.

Degrading the player's resources and making sure you mess with their heads is the most important part of playing these little guys. Mine are specifically known as "Tuk-Hher's Kobolds" given that they believe themselves to be worshipping an Ancient Red-Dragon called - wait for it - Tuk-Hher, naturally.

It begins with a door with carvings in draconic reading:

"Welcome Heroes! Please place an arcane implement or similar treasure into the hole, a guide will be along shortly to lead you all to your Reward."

If every party member stuffs a rare or greater magic item down the hole then a Kobold will appear as promised after 24 hours to lead them safely through the Dungeon and onward through a portal to Chezelik's demi-plane (which is a whole other ordeal entirely). If even a single party member ignores this or if the party gets impatient, then on their own heads be it.

Having a powerful spell-caster "on their side" makes it possible to include traps that "god wizards" can't just hand-wave into irrelevance, which also helps.

[DarkSoul]

I feel like using Tucker's Kobolds in a Dragon Mountain update would be exceptionally deadly.

[Yogibear41]

Why don't your kobold's have silver bolts?

Also tanglefoot bags for the imp.

[Goaty14]

Make the tunnels shorter. Web Enhancement Kobolds get slight build which makes 'em count as tiny whenever it helps them, which goes to invalidate small-sized adventurers, and probably outright excludes medium sized ones.

EDIT: If you can afford it, it would help to cover the entire thing in thin lead sheets, just so dinivations can't pierce the warren.

[noob]

Or you can keep kobold cr low and have them completely overpowered thanks to the following line in the monster manual 1:

Challenge Rating
Kobolds with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -3.

Yes that means they consider a kobold adept of level 4 is CR 1(which is completely unfair) and if you push the interpretation a bit(they probably forgot multi-classing existed) then a kobold adept 1 wizard 3 is also CR 1(but can definitively cause a lot of problems and will have also the same wealth as a npc of level 4 since wealth is based on level and not cr)
Caster kobolds are completely under cred if you know that rule.
Then there is splat support.
Kobolds even without tactics are overpowered(especially with splat support) so you should not be proud of making them efficient with tactics.
Now do that with a really under-powered creature who also had no splat support (not a kobold) and then you can be proud.
It was a challenge in the previous editions to have dangerous kobolds for the simple reason they did not have as much splat support or broken powers(such as that line about CR or the confusing rules about dragons and that feat that allows kobolds to count as dragons of the free +1 cl ritual here for no reason whatsoever)

[AvatarVecna]

Make the tunnels shorter. Web Enhancement Kobolds get slight build which makes 'em count as tiny whenever it helps them, which goes to invalidate small-sized adventurers, and probably outright excludes medium sized ones.

EDIT: If you can afford it, it would help to cover the entire thing in thin lead sheets, just so dinivations can't pierce the warren.

Or you can keep kobold cr low and have them completely overpowered thanks to the following line in the monster manual 1:

Yes that means they consider a kobold adept of level 4 is CR 1(which is completely unfair) and if you push the interpretation a bit(they probably forgot multi-classing existed) then a kobold adept 1 wizard 3 is also CR 1(but can definitively cause a lot of problems and will have also the same wealth as a npc of level 4 since wealth is based on level and not cr)
Caster kobolds are completely under cred if you know that rule.
Then there is splat support.
Kobolds even without tactics are overpowered(especially with splat support) so you should not be proud of making them efficient with tactics.
Now do that with a really under-powered creature who also had no splat support (not a kobold) and then you can be proud.
It was a challenge in the previous editions to have dangerous kobolds for the simple reason they did not have as much splat support or broken powers(such as that line about CR or the confusing rules about dragons and that feat that allows kobolds to count as dragons of the free +1 cl ritual here for no reason whatsoever)

If you check the OP to see the classes these kobolds are using (specifically the Witch and Alchemist) and the link in the OP to the original thread that discusses available sources, you might notice this is a PF thought experiment instead of a 3.5 one.

[Elkad]

Why don't your kobold's have silver bolts?

Also tanglefoot bags for the imp.

Even if they did have silver bolts, they need a nat20 to hit the AC28 (with just Mage Armor, higher is easily possible ) Imp. They need 1 hit every 2 rounds just to stay ahead of it's Fast Healing, which means 10 Kobolds focus firing it for 15-20 rounds to drop it.

Tanglefoot bags are expensive. 200gp per hit, 400gp to get it to fail a reflex save and stop flying. It's got a dex penalty by then, so another 300gp should get it stuck to the floor. At which point it turns invisible (and takes Total Defense, just in case of flour bags) for 5 rounds, and then you have to start over. And that assumes it wasn't buffed with Scintillating Scales (1min/lvl, NA becomes Deflection). If it is, it'll have Touch:24, more if you throw in a Barkskin or something.

Here's an old L7 Imp of mine. I had the 1 mile sharing Dragon Mag feat, but she could easily be directly buffed to work alone..

https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=31579

Kobolds aren't beating that without dropping a big rock on it. Or maybe grapple+coup (with a silver axe).



For bonus points, put Obtain and Improved Familiar on a Duskblade. 22 Con, for 85hp. Imp has 42hp, and far better BAB. It'll shred through them.

[Malroth]

i think there's an alchemical item you can use to cause weapons to count as alchemical silver, just apply to 50 crossbow bolts and spread them out.

[Elkad]

i think there's an alchemical item you can use to cause weapons to count as alchemical silver, just apply to 50 crossbow bolts and spread them out.

Without more Kobolds (and clear fields of fire for all of them at the same time) that doesn't really help. 20 Kobolds are going to hit once per round, for 2.5 net damage (d6+1, minus 2pts of fast healing). If the Imp has a mere 15hp, you need 6 rounds. 6 rounds where it doesn't run away, or turn invisible, or kill half your Kobolds.

[Goaty14]

If you check the OP to see the classes these kobolds are using (specifically the Witch and Alchemist) and the link in the OP to the original thread that discusses available sources, you might notice this is a PF thought experiment instead of a 3.5 one.

Oh.

Well, I mean if a medium sized character can crawl into a small hole, then can't a small character crawl into a tiny hole? Just have a single tunnel sized for tiny characters for some space and then resume back to small size, which should prevent anything short of halflings or gnomes to even try infiltrating the base.

[Elkad]

Maps from Kaveman. Currently on Imgur. I'll try to remember to move them somewhere more permanent. Now with permanent hosting.

They are named for each level of the warren.

The yellow shaded areas are the elevated track and are small enough to force a medium character to squeeze. The areas with brown are choke points where even a small character has to squeeze.

Red shading indicates traps…BT is bear trap

Blue are standard Iron Doors.

It is built on 1 inch grid so it is technically to scale for standard mini’s, most corridors are represented just under 5 foot scale to indicate medium characters must squeeze.

Spoiler: Level1

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pages.suddenlink.net/flowerdog/stuff/LVL1.jpg

Spoiler: Level2

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pages.suddenlink.net/flowerdog/stuff/LVL2.jpg

Spoiler: Level3

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pages.suddenlink.net/flowerdog/stuff/LVL3.jpg

Assuming up=north.
Entrance is SW corner?
And only way up to yellow track is the ladders at the east end? (other than squeezing through arrow slits)

I think I oriented L2 correctly.
Where does L1 connect to L2 at?

L2>L3 is the stairs I assume.

2018.12.03 - Edited to move maps to a permanent-ish host (as long as I have this ISP anyway).
2023.01.15 - Embedding not working, so I'm adding text urls for you to copy paste

[ComaVision]

Maps from Kaveman.

Beat me by 10 minutes, I had just uploaded them to Imgur and came back to the thread.

[Kaveman26]

Maps from Kaveman. Currently on Imgur. I'll try to remember to move them somewhere more permanent.

Spoiler: Level1

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Spoiler: Level2

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Spoiler: Level3

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Assuming up=north.
Entrance is SW corner?
And only way up to yellow track is the ladders at the east end? (other than squeezing through arrow slits)

I think I oriented L2 correctly.
Where does L1 connect to L2 at?

L2>L3 is the stairs I assume.

As oriented there is a set of ladders at extreme right of map that lead to elevated exterior track. There is a ladder leading to middle track with trap above it at left end of that same room.

To reach level 2 you must climb the well.

[Elkad]

Re: My Imp comments above.

I was using 3.5 Imp. Just actually checked the PF Imp, and instead of +5 Nat Armor (and single-target Dodge) it has +1 Nat, +1 Dodge (PF, so to all aggressors).
Raises it's Touch AC a point (to 16), but drops it's standard AC by 4 points. Of course it gets +4 NA for being a 7th level familiar, so it's still at AC21, or AC25 with Mage Armor.

Without Mage Armor you could volley it down, if you could keep it from running or going invisible.
Goblins would do slightly better with their extra point of ranged attack bonus.

Jolt instead of Acid Splash would have done the job. But then they bring a Quasit instead, and you have to go looking for Sonic. Of course an unbuffed Quasit is easier (by 1 point) for the archers to hit, and Cold Iron arrows are cheap.
Probably need to make sure your casters cover as many energy types as possible for just this situation.

[Kaveman26]

I feel like not having sealed trapped rooms is a huge oversight on the Kobolds part. Leading people into rooms and locking them in is a basic strategy. Also, why no collapsing tunnels? I love this concept, but you're not truly giving the kobolds every advantage they should easily have. Pit traps and bear traps and mining carts, but no basic "just knock out the supports!"

weak.

Collapsing Rooms will be integrated into the Beta Build. Along with airtight rooms and potenially dunk tanks for suffocations and drownings.

@Kaveman26:

You´re using 3E/PF, what did you expect? Tucker´s Kobolds worked in D&D/AD&D because the system performance bottom and ceiling was capped and heroes and monsters had a good chance to stay relevant/dangerous at each level, something that doesn't happen with the open ended growth nature of the d20 system, same thing as why Leadership and some forms of Minionmancy are practically useless when you use the full system.

I had expected to not be able to challenge 10-11th parties per the original “Tuckers Legend” but I did want to see just how close to that outcome one could arrive. We made them dangerous far beyond their intended use and I think that with some additional tweaking we can possibly get to 10th or higher.

How much would you have to sacrifice to fit a Wand of Magic Missile into your equipment list? Seems like that would be one option against high AC or high DR/resist (except force) opponents. Another option against high DR/resist or (if you reach that point) spell resistance would be collapsing tunnels or dropping heavy objects on your opponents.

Magic Missile in on our list of edits. Thinking of abandoning the zero level wands and revamping the PC’s and Chiefs. We are leaning towards the Chief or Champion being a barbarian or other melee class just to have at least one source of physical damage

i think there's an alchemical item you can use to cause weapons to count as alchemical silver, just apply to 50 crossbow bolts and spread them out.

This is something we are going to be have fit in budget wise. Cold Iron and Silver need to be within our means if we are going to break the 6th/7th level barrier.


From our perspective the biggest obstacle in this experiment is overthinking. With a bigger budget and no consideration for plausibility we could manufacture a dungeon that would be completely unassailable to anything other than a pre-planned party. I mean just miles and miles of tiny tunnels with numerous nuisance traps. Thousands of nuisance traps predicated on the knowledge that 1’s will eventually happen. Or something so complex that each kobold would have to hold something like 7 PHD’s in engineering, chemistry and physics. We are doing our best to apply some limitations in both size and complexity and keep this within the realm of implausible but not outright absurdity. That is why most of the traps are from a simple standpoint. Nothing too mechanically complex or intricate. Diverting some of the river's flow to a room where can we flood and seal? That we will look at. Are we going to create an entire plumbing and pipe system triggered by sound or nearly invisible trip wires? Probably not.

From a pure challenge standpoint we would love to see a 10th level party fall, and then start to scale back on the budgetary standpoint to see how bare bones we can get. I feel like from a thought experiment standpoint we have already succeeded, but we can stretch their success further with some tweaks and adjustments.

List of Adjustments:

Cold Iron and Silver Quality Weapons need to be in our inventory.

Collapsible Tunnels or Rooms for the hard to hit aggressors need to be incorporated.

Covers for our arrow slits to prevent gaseous form invaders

Iron Maiden type obstacles. Being able to isolate or contain a character that breaks through to the upper level (flight, shapeshift, gas, or earth glide) is too important to leave out. Would love to formulate doors that close in front of and behind a character while they are squeezing through a tiny chokepoint. There are four to five brown shaded corners in the elevated track that we may convert to be a sort of Iron Maiden. When the invader enters that turn or starts to squeeze we manually trigger and form a sort of air lock. So imagine a boulder wedged up an incline in the wall behind and in front that with a manual trigger the boulder rolls down...pushing a door shut on either side and then the boulder acts as a wedge to keep the door shut. For added kicks we carve a tiny "air duct" in the walls that allows a kobold to commando crawl to a spot just about the stuck character and they start filling a drill hole at the top with oil or acid maybe even water and just try to drown/burn the stuck character.

[exelsisxax]

Re: My Imp comments above.

I was using 3.5 Imp. Just actually checked the PF Imp, and instead of +5 Nat Armor (and single-target Dodge) it has +1 Nat, +1 Dodge (PF, so to all aggressors).
Raises it's Touch AC a point (to 16), but drops it's standard AC by 4 points. Of course it gets +4 NA for being a 7th level familiar, so it's still at AC21, or AC25 with Mage Armor.

Without Mage Armor you could volley it down, if you could keep it from running or going invisible.
Goblins would do slightly better with their extra point of ranged attack bonus.

Jolt instead of Acid Splash would have done the job. But then they bring a Quasit instead, and you have to go looking for Sonic. Of course an unbuffed Quasit is easier (by 1 point) for the archers to hit, and Cold Iron arrows are cheap.
Probably need to make sure your casters cover as many energy types as possible for just this situation.

Holy water, all evil and undead familiars trounced. Why would the wizard waste spells on buffing such a weak creature anyway? They would summon something non-terrible to buff.

[Elkad]

Holy water, all evil and undead familiars trounced.

Not sure why LE creatures would have Holy Water (unless they got it off the last party to try to get in), but excellent idea.

Why would the wizard waste spells on buffing such a weak creature anyway? They would summon something non-terrible to buff.

Your Familiar gets Mage Armor every morning, same time you do (likely Extended through a lesser rod, and refreshed via a Pearl). Having it die is less-painful in PF, but it's still too useful to not buff (and give items to). Everyone in PF gets UMD if they want it (via trait), so having your familiar be an item mechanic is easy. And even if you don't, you give it a bow and arrows so it can plink away at creatures. Plus scout, fetch dropped items, and a thousand other useful things. Improved Familiar rates right up there with Leadership as a Feat that is somewhere between excellent and "I get to play 2 characters and you don't".

What is a 7th level Wizard going to summon that is worth casting Mage Armor on in this situation? Most creatures he'd have to summon inside the upper tunnels - assuming he can get line of effect through a murder hole - so even buffing it after the fact would be a problem, and it's only there for 7 rounds. The goblins can just run for that long.

Binding something via Lesser Planar Ally is different. A Hound Archon or Bearded Devil with Greater Teleport At Will would work great. But then it wouldn't even need buffs.