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2018-03-17, 06:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
Three castings of Create Greater Demplane instead of Permanency?
This is certainly not intended, but weird stuff...
The Create Greater Demiplane spell permits adding the Timeless trait to a demiplane. Per the Timeless trait: "If a plane is timeless with respect to magic, any spell cast with a noninstantaneous duration is permanent until dispelled."
Additionally, Create Greater Demiplane permits expanding a plane you're already on.
So, suppose a caster:
1) Casts Create Greater Demiplane (or a lesser version) and goes to the new temporary plane.
2) Casts Create Greater Demiplane to make the plane Timeless with respect to magic.
3) Casts Create Greater Demiplane (or a lesser version) to expand the existing demiplane with a new section.
That new section from step 3 inherits the timelessness from step 2, and was cast on a timeless demiplane. Which... means it lasts until dispelled - effectively being permanent without the price of the normal permanancy spell.
Obviously not intended, and another casting of CGD would get rid of the plane (by getting rid of the timeless trait), but is this RAW?Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2018-03-17, 08:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Three castings of Create Greater Demplane instead of Permanency?
At most, you'd make the expanded area timeless, as the other two castings would still disappear on schedule (soon followed by the third, as it would not longer be timeless).
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2018-03-17, 08:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
Re: Three castings of Create Greater Demplane instead of Permanency?
Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2018-03-18, 04:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2013
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- Middle of nowhere USA.
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Re: Three castings of Create Greater Demplane instead of Permanency?
To my knowledge yes, that is how that works. Our resident rules guru rules it that way at our table at least IIRC.
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2018-03-18, 04:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
Re: Three castings of Create Greater Demplane instead of Permanency?
the third casting expands the demiplane, but that expanded section is also instantaneous is it not? It's the entire demiplane that's on a ticking timer, when the demiplane itself times out and collapses, the whole thing collapses, including the expanded section.
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2018-03-18, 05:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Three castings of Create Greater Demplane instead of Permanency?
This idea of course assumes that using a spell to create a timeless plane retroactively affects the spell used to create the plane. That's a decidedly dubious interpretation and I don't think that resolving such a conflict is ever defined anywhere (for obvious reasons).
Last edited by Caelestion; 2018-03-18 at 05:09 AM.
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2018-03-18, 09:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
Re: Three castings of Create Greater Demplane instead of Permanency?
Inherited from Create Demiplane: "You can use this spell to expand a demiplane you created with create lesser demiplane (you do not need to create an entirely new plane using this spell), in which case it has a duration of 1 day/level. "
So no, individual sections tick down separately.
Not the intent, actually. I'm assuming the original section from step 1 times out. However, the section from step 3 is on an independent timer, and was a) cast on a timeless demiplane, and b) is itself timeless, so that timer never ticks.Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2018-03-18, 09:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Three castings of Create Greater Demplane instead of Permanency?
Except that it's not an independent demiplane, is it? It's an extension to the original timeless demiplane that no longer exists.
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2018-03-18, 04:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
Re: Three castings of Create Greater Demplane instead of Permanency?
Inherited from Create Demiplane, Lesser:
If you are within the demiplane, you can add to its area by casting the spell again. Alternatively, you may cast this spell again to reset the duration of an existing area to that of your latest casting. If the duration on one area of the demiplane ends and other parts remain, creatures in the expiring area are shunted to remaining areas. If a collapsing portion of the demiplane would leave one section cut off from other sections of the demiplane (for example, if there were three areas connected in a straight line and the center part expired), the stranded sections count as separate demiplanes under your control. You may reconnect these stranded sections by casting the spell again to create a linked area between the two.
So...no, not really a problem.Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2018-03-18, 07:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Three castings of Create Greater Demplane instead of Permanency?
Well, you started the thread by saying this was clearly not RAI, so I'm not sure what else we can add.
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2018-03-18, 08:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
Re: Three castings of Create Greater Demplane instead of Permanency?
I want to make sure that at the same time, it is actually RAW. Getting other people to try and poke holes in a thing (and then determining whether or not they're valid, and if there's a simple way to close said holes) is one of the ways to shore up a thing (if it's largely valid in the first place).
Throw something up here, and people will attack it. Sometimes without actually reading the source material, but such things still serve to force me to stop and double-check details.
That it's apparently valid is... interesting.Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2018-03-18, 08:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
Re: Three castings of Create Greater Demplane instead of Permanency?
I'll take a stab at this.
Your interpretation is nether RAW nor RAI. Ultimately, it is all tied to the original casting. True, while in the plane itself, you have infinite time. But, if you leave or interact with the world outside duration will tick down as normal, ceasing to be when the original spell ceases to exist.
In no way does this allow a permanent demiplane IN RELATION TO TIME AS IT EXISTS IN THE OUTSIDE WORLD.
Inside, so long as you do not seek to advance time outside your demiplane (ie, astral projection, exiting the plane, or otherwise seeking to interact meaningfully with the multiverse at large) you do in fact have infinite time and it can be considered "permanent."
But outside, you still get a 1 day per level duration which is toed to the original casting.
Edit: further, the extension exists outside the realm of the timelessness to begin with. It may inherit the timeless quality, but even if cast from inside timelessness, the effect is outside. Keep in mind, the space for your demiplane doesn't exist until this is cast so in order for this interpretation to be correct, you must first somehow apply timelessness to space that doesn't exist which is impossible.Last edited by Calthropstu; 2018-03-18 at 09:04 PM.
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2018-03-19, 06:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
Re: Three castings of Create Greater Demplane instead of Permanency?
...
This is a sufficient departure from what "timeless" actually means in Pathfinder that it's not useful for my previously stated purpose. That said:
I would totally take this and run with it. That's not what Timeless means in Pathfinder, but spending 8 hours (2 hours on Create Lesser Demiplane, 6 hours on Create Greater Demiplane; rest is your interpretation of Timeless and doesn't eat up any Material Plane Time) to get uncapped crafting/resting time? I tend to arrange for several of the crafting feats anyway, and this generally means I can take treasure from the first half of the dungeon to shore up any weaknesses the party has to the dungeon's theme before we get to the second half.Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2018-03-19, 12:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Three castings of Create Greater Demplane instead of Permanency?
From the way I understand this, you're still trying to get a free lunch. Is this an accurate summary?
1) Cast the Demiplane spell
2) Cast it again to make it timeless with respect to magic (clearly a broken idea and one which I thought had been fixed by errata, but apparently not)
3) Cast it a third time to expand the demiplane
4) Original timeless demiplane vanishes, leaving behind allegedly permanent section, now its own demiplane
5) Believe that remaining demiplane is still timeless, despite the fact that the timeless area is no longer in existence
If so, the only way I can see it working without violating a whole tonne of expectations about magic and magical thermodynamics:
4) Original timeless demiplane vanishes, leaving behind extended section, now its own demiplane, which now counts down duration due to longer being part of a timeless demiplane
5) Remaining section disappears on schedule, 1 day per level (?) after timeless demiplane vanishes
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2018-03-19, 01:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-03-19, 07:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
Re: Three castings of Create Greater Demplane instead of Permanency?
Somewhat. Would you prefer that I planar bind and Dominate something that can Permanency it?
So you're suggesting that all areas must be modified individually by castings that manipulate demiplane traits (whether that's Time, Light, Seasonal, gravity, et cetera)? Interesting interpretation, but solvable within that interpretation: a 4th casting to make the second section independently Timeless.Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2018-03-19, 07:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Three castings of Create Greater Demplane instead of Permanency?
At least you're honest about it. How you want to cheese it is up to you, but planar binding shenanigans are not really the focus of this thread.
So you're suggesting that all areas must be modified individually by castings that manipulate demiplane traits (whether that's Time, Light, Seasonal, gravity, et cetera)? Interesting interpretation, but solvable within that interpretation: a 4th casting to make the second section independently Timeless.
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2018-03-19, 09:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
Re: Three castings of Create Greater Demplane instead of Permanency?
FWIW, I’ve always interpreted it the same way as OP did. On the other hand, I’m not sure why OP would like to get the opinions of others on something that clearly only your DM has the authority to resolve...
Even though the original demiplane cannot retroactively become timeless, this should be easy enough to get around - all you need is to use Permanency on the original demiplane after your second casting, and you can expand your demiplane without having to apply further Permanency. In fact, you can even start with a lesser create demiplane so that the Permanency is slightly cheaper.
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2018-03-19, 11:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
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2018-03-19, 11:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
Re: Three castings of Create Greater Demplane instead of Permanency?
My argument is the opposite. The plane extension exists OUTSIDE the original. Whether it is cast within or not is irrelevant, the spell is outside of the original timeless aura. Whether it inherits timeless or not is also irrelevant as the plane containing timeless exists outside of the timeless trait. It has to in order to contain the timeless trait.
Your argument is akin to saying a rabbit cage is a rabbit because it contains a rabbit.
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2018-03-21, 07:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
Re: Three castings of Create Greater Demplane instead of Permanency?
If a Cleric-8 uses a Bead of Karma, then proceeds to cast Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments on the party Fighter's weapon and armor (respectively) to make them +3 (because Caster Level 12 after using the bead), do the enhancement bonuses drop down to +2 ten minutes later when the bead of karma wears off and the caster level bonus no longer exists?
A: Not planning on actually using it in a game, so there's no DM involved.
B: What, finding a new loophole isn't shiny?
Timeless didn't change much between 3.5 and PF
Now this one is an actual interesting argument, and seems to work for exactly what you want, if the premise of where the spell resides is accepted (which will vary from table to table, but it's at least a perfectly self-consistent interpretation with no clear contradictions). Nice!Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2018-03-21 at 07:26 AM.
Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2018-03-21, 08:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
Re: Three castings of Create Greater Demplane instead of Permanency?
Different circumstances. This case, the spell itself alters. The core of the spell (namely caster level) is heightened.
Timeless is not part of the spell, but is an outside force affecting the spell much like an anti magic field. Bring the spell outside of timeless and it will begin ticking down.
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2018-03-21, 08:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Three castings of Create Greater Demplane instead of Permanency?
I wouldn't have thought so, but there you are using the item in (presumably) the way it is intended, rather than using a temporary spell to make further castings of the same spell permanent, even though the spell explicitly requires a casting of permanency each time to do that instead.
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2018-03-21, 08:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
Re: Three castings of Create Greater Demplane instead of Permanency?
Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2018-03-21, 08:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Three castings of Create Greater Demplane instead of Permanency?
Because that's how you set up the example. Are we done now?
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2018-03-22, 06:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
Re: Three castings of Create Greater Demplane instead of Permanency?
No, as you're missing the point. It wasn't a topic jump. It was a counterexample.
With the CGD setup, you've got clear RAW that says "If a plane is timeless with respect to magic, any spell cast with a noninstantaneous duration is permanent until dispelled." You claimed that the plane "will still revert back to having a duration when the original demiplane disappears" because the bonus does. So I picked a similar thing where everyone presumes it works the exact opposite way (including you). With the plane, I have a magical effect that has a defined beneficial effect, and I use that effect on a spell; you claim that the effect on the spell does not extend past the lifespan of the original magical effect. With the bead of karma example, I have a magical effect that has a defined beneficial effect, and I use that effect on a spell; you claim that the effect on the spell does extend past the lifetime of the original magical effect. Apparently based solely on "intent", which can't really be known.Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.