Dirty spells Yay or Nay? How to deal with sex and sexual magic?

[Kaptin Keen]

I'd be a bit leery of "seduction magic." If a person has been charmed into sex against their will, how different is it from a date rape drug? If they were willing, why did you need the magic?

Now ... how is that worse - or even particularly different - than murdering your friends under the influence of a charm spell?

Don't answer that. Rethorical, and not a discussion I'm looking for =)

Seduction is part of the movies and litterature RPG's take inspiration from. Whether it's James Bond, or Jessica Jones, or Triss Merigold (or Geralt, obviously) or Conan the Barbarian, using sex to either gain information, or lure enemies into a trap - or to assassinate them when they're the most vulnerable - is a mainstay of the various genres.

It's more complicated in RPG's - among other reasons, because a sexually outspoken player may well make another player who's more sexually private quite uncomfortable. It also does lead to certain moral questions, but as already stated above, if you look at the morals of 'adventuring' too closely, it all falls apart very very quickly. We're playing murder-hobo's, let's be honest. Alignment is a fig leaf to cover up the fact that we're slaughtering our way to fame, power and richess.

[Frozen_Feet]

Alignment doesn't really enter into it, save for people who equate D&D Good with real morals and insist on banning Evil from play.

In other kinds of games, whether something is Evil has little to do with what's tolerated at the table. The players might be fine with bloody murder, by which I mean they call the murderer Evil and then just continue playing... but not be okay with Mage's Disjunction, likening it to rape of their characters and saying it is an immediate reason to leave a group. (You can accuse me of hyperbole, but this is a claim that's actually been made in these boards.)

So passing moral judgement, especially in-game moral judgement, on acts of sexual magic is somewhat pointless. This is very rarely a problem of morals and more commonly a problem of player squick.

[Max_Killjoy]

It does leave me perplexed, how little objection or conversation is created by mind control effects in RPGs.


And both "sex magic" and "mind control" fall under the heading of things that a GM must approach on an individual basis.

These cannot be topics where the group says "Well we're doing seduction spells and everyone is fair game".

And no, not IMO. This one is objective, and absolute. You do not force mind control, seduction, explicit sexual depictions involving their PCs, etc onto players who aren't comfortable with them. End of story. If you really really want that to be something that's open season across the group, then you'd better make it entirely clear up front and leave every player a chance to say "no thank you", and even not partake of the campaign if that's the choice they need to make.

[ross]

introduce sexual stuff into a game played almost exclusively by socially retarded nerds? what could go wrong?

[ross]

Which is a perversion and/or misunderstanding of how this thing was done in myth

runs contrary to many actual myths

In real myths

We get it, you care about mythology. Doesn't matter. Whatever the source books say, goes.

[S@tanicoaldo]

Oh no guys I wasn’t thinking about something so explicit, more like a fun and funny thing.

Picture this scenario:

Ranger: Oh no the evil duke has sent his best elite knights after us!

Rougue: I won’t be able to open the castle gates in time, we need a distraction.

Paladin: Sex wizard, do something!

Wizard: I cast, Orgasmic Vibrations, Mass!

Spoiler: The spell

Show

Orgasmic Vibrations, Mass (Book of Erotic Fantasy)
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting, Sexual]
Level: Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 8
Target: One or more living creature, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
As orgasmic vibrations, except this spell affects multiple creatures.

Orgasmic Vibrations (Book of Erotic Fantasy)
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting, Sexual]
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V and S.
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One living creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
A grand, shuddering orgasm overwhelms a living creature that fails its saving throw, making the creature dazed for the duration of the spell. A target that makes its saving throw still suffers pleasurable, but merely distracting, sensations.

She could have cast hold person mass but this way not only she was able to hold them down it was quite a humiliating defeat, the elite knights of the evil duke where left in the floor confused, having seizures of pleasure and making a mess while the party escaped thought the front gate, they were dominated by a magical force like hold person but it was pleasurable rather than creepy so it looks like they were not able to help themselves but be overwhelmed by them, making the elite guard seem less elite.

So a hold person spell would make people talk about a powerful spell caster who dominated the elite knight’s minds but an orgasm spell makes them look bad, like they were not able to hold themselves, it was a humiliating defeat, people would talk about how the elite knigths stood there in the floor unable to take a hold of their bodies while the party escaped.

Would you guys allow THIS sort of thing in your game or is it too goofy?

[ross]

Oh no guys I wasn’t thinking about something so explicit, more like a fun and funny thing.

Picture this scenario:

Ranger: Oh no the evil duke has sent his best elite knights after us!

Rougue: I won’t be able to open the castle gates in time, we need a distraction.

Paladin: Sex wizard, do something!

Wizard: I cast, Orgasmic Vibrations, Mass!

Spoiler: The spell

Show

Orgasmic Vibrations, Mass (Book of Erotic Fantasy)
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting, Sexual]
Level: Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 8
Target: One or more living creature, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
As orgasmic vibrations, except this spell affects multiple creatures.

Orgasmic Vibrations (Book of Erotic Fantasy)
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting, Sexual]
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V and S.
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One living creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
A grand, shuddering orgasm overwhelms a living creature that fails its saving throw, making the creature dazed for the duration of the spell. A target that makes its saving throw still suffers pleasurable, but merely distracting, sensations.

She could have cast hold person mass but this way not only she was able to hold them down it was quite a humiliating defeat, the elite knights of the evil duke where left in the floor confused, having seizures of pleasure and making a mess while the party escaped thought the front gate, they were dominated by a magical force like hold person but it was pleasurable rather than creepy so it looks like they were not able to help themselves but be overwhelmed by them, making the elite guard seem less elite.

So a hold person spell would make people talk about a powerful spell caster who dominated the elite knight’s minds but an orgasm spell makes them look bad, like they were not able to hold themselves, it was a humiliating defeat, people would talk about how the elite knigths stood there in the floor unable to take a hold of their bodies while the party escaped.

Would you guys allow THIS sort of thing in your game or is it too goofy?

jesus christ

[Mastikator]

jesus christ

Seconded. Jesus christ

[Max_Killjoy]

Oh no guys I wasn’t thinking about something so explicit, more like a fun and funny thing.

Picture this scenario:

Ranger: Oh no the evil duke has sent his best elite knights after us!

Rougue: I won’t be able to open the castle gates in time, we need a distraction.

Paladin: Sex wizard, do something!

Wizard: I cast, Orgasmic Vibrations, Mass!

Spoiler: The spell

Show

Orgasmic Vibrations, Mass (Book of Erotic Fantasy)
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting, Sexual]
Level: Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 8
Target: One or more living creature, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
As orgasmic vibrations, except this spell affects multiple creatures.

Orgasmic Vibrations (Book of Erotic Fantasy)
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting, Sexual]
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V and S.
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One living creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
A grand, shuddering orgasm overwhelms a living creature that fails its saving throw, making the creature dazed for the duration of the spell. A target that makes its saving throw still suffers pleasurable, but merely distracting, sensations.

She could have cast hold person mass but this way not only she was able to hold them down it was quite a humiliating defeat, the elite knights of the evil duke where left in the floor confused, having seizures of pleasure and making a mess while the party escaped thought the front gate, they were dominated by a magical force like hold person but it was pleasurable rather than creepy so it looks like they were not able to help themselves but be overwhelmed by them, making the elite guard seem less elite.

So a hold person spell would make people talk about a powerful spell caster who dominated the elite knight’s minds but an orgasm spell makes them look bad, like they were not able to hold themselves, it was a humiliating defeat, people would talk about how the elite knigths stood there in the floor unable to take a hold of their bodies while the party escaped.

Would you guys allow THIS sort of thing in your game or is it too goofy?

IMO, too goofy.

If I were going to include the general topic of "sexual magic" in a campaign or game, it wouldn't not be from a comedic angle, it would be from a very matter-of-fact angle.

[S@tanicoaldo]

I think I would just add them as flavour easter eggs.

Like these two spells:

Spoiler

Show

Mirror Talk (Book of Erotic Fantasy)
Illusion (Phantasm) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: See text
Effect: Magical sensor
Duration: 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

The spell enables the caster to create a link from her focus mirror to a second focus mirror elsewhere on the same plane. She must have carefully studied the mirror, but need not know where it is located.

The link between mirrors enables those in front of the mirror to see through the opposing focus as if it were a window. Sights and sounds pass through the foci. This enables line of sight but not line of effect.

Focus: A pair of finely wrought and highly polished silver mirrors costing not less than 1000 gp. The mirrors can be of any size.

Mirror Walk (Book of Erotic Fantasy)
Conjuration [Teleportation]
Level: Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Personal and touch
Target: You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

This spell functions as greater teleport except that it creates a link from the caster's focus mirror to a second focus mirror elsewhere on the same plane. She must have carefully studied the mirror, but need not know where it is located.

Focus: A pair of finely wrought and highly polished silver mirrors costing not less than 1000 gp. The mirrors must be tall enough and wide enough to allow the creatures to pass through them. If either mirror is too small to allow passage for the traveler, he cannot pass through.

They are basically a fantasy version of a dirty skype section, it's has a lot of flavour and makes sense, if can bind and reshape space and time, wouldn't you use that to keep in touch with your loved one?

Finding a spell scroll with these spells in the evil wizard's tower bedroom makes sense and is funny, and this spell can be used for non sexual things too and that makes it useful.

[Frozen_Feet]

We get it, you care about mythology. Doesn't matter. Whatever the source books say, goes.

This is the general RPG forum; I'm approaching this from a perspective where no sourcebook is specified and where someone reading this might have to design the rules and context for the act. Talking about myths to base this on is valid. Most popular fantasy concepts were appropriated from myth and folklore anyway, and just in D&D there are plenty of character archetypes which work on the basis I outlined, for that reason. For example, Cleric in AD&D and Warlocks in d20 D&D explicitly gain powers via social contract with a supernatural being, so it's a valid question if that contract is based in sexual interaction. The low, PG-13 bar for that is a supernatural creature giving a character powers because they are smitten for the character's beauty.

---

EDIT: and yes I would lead those spells pass. Goofy? Maybe, but there's nothing wrong with goofy. Not even close to the worst things my players have spontaneously sprung on me without magic.

[ross]

This is the general RPG forum; I'm approaching this from a perspective where no sourcebook is specified and where someone reading this might have to design the rules and context for the act. Talking about myths to base this on is valid. Most popular fantasy concepts were appropriated from myth and folklore anyway, and just in D&D there are plenty of character archetypes which work on the basis I outlined, for that reason. For example, Cleric in AD&D and Warlocks in d20 D&D explicitly gain powers via social contract with a supernatural being, so it's a valid question if that contract is based in sexual interaction. The low, PG-13 bar for that is a supernatural creature giving a character powers because they are smitten for the character's beauty.

---

EDIT: and yes I would lead those spells pass. Goofy? Maybe, but there's nothing wrong with goofy. Not even close to the worst things my players have spontaneously sprung on me without magic.

And it's also completely irrelevant. The cleric or warlock get their spells back when they rest for 8 hours and that's it.

[Karl Aegis]

Well, when someone casts a spell that can bring down an entire duchy by itself and your group lives to tell the tale, you probably are elite. Your spell is a better version of a 9th level spell, Mass Hold Monster, but with less monsters immune to it and very few or no monsters able to counterspell it normally. Oh, it doesn't require a focus, either. It's a ridiculously unbalanced spell. Magic was already strong enough, we didn't need better, stronger, faster magic.

[Koo Rehtorb]

I don't see anything inherently wrong with reskinning spells to have the same mechanical effects but with a sex theme. The same as I don't see anything wrong with reskinning spells with any particular theme, so long as it doesn't change their mechanics.

Being too goofy/uncomfortable/rapey is certainly a concern and everyone in the group should be on board with it in advance, however.

[Mystral]

No, I wouldn't allow something like this. It makes everyone uncomfortable and doesn't contribute in a meaningfull way.

[Delta]

No, I wouldn't allow something like this. It makes everyone uncomfortable and doesn't contribute in a meaningfull way.

For the record, I'm not telling you to include anything at your table you don't want. But to point one thing out, it obviously does not make everyone uncomfortable, and some people seem to think it does contribute in a meaningful way, as you can see in this very thread, otherwise there would be no debate. As always with these kinds of things, it's a highly subjective matter.

[Frozen_Feet]

And it's also completely irrelevant. The cleric or warlock get their spells back when they rest for 8 hours and that's it.

Wrong. In AD&D, the Cleric's ability to get any spells is contingent upon them following precepts of their faith, and for higher level spells, explicitly requires liason with their god's servant or the god itself. If, for example, you are a follower of a sex god and do not observe the sexual rituals of your faith, that is grounds for you not getting the spells you want.

For Warlocks, the point again is not what they do with their powers after getting them, it's how they got their powers to begin with. In-universe, it makes a world of difference if you can gain magic by cavorting with demons/faeries/Yog-Sothoth, versus if you can't.

So not only is yout statement missing the point, I have to conclude you have not actually read AD&D rules all that closely.

[S@tanicoaldo]

Well, when someone casts a spell that can bring down an entire duchy by itself and your group lives to tell the tale, you probably are elite. Your spell is a better version of a 9th level spell, Mass Hold Monster, but with less monsters immune to it and very few or no monsters able to counterspell it normally. Oh, it doesn't require a focus, either. It's a ridiculously unbalanced spell. Magic was already strong enough, we didn't need better, stronger, faster magic.

I belive it only works on humans, I'm sure it doesn't work on costructs and the undead.

There is a focus I just removed becuase rules.

And magic is Op no matter what, it's D&D after all.

[Honest Tiefling]

Probably not. More explicit sex stuff goes into creepy territory faster than most gamers gravitate to doritos and mountain dew unless you are with a very tight knit group. I'm personally too afraid of players trying to powergame this sort of thing in ways that wasn't intentional. No, you cannot turn your peener into a bludgeoning natural attack.

What I would probably prefer is to focus on being subtle. What does sex magic mean to the player? If it means being charming, congratulations, you are a bard based on dance or a similar skill. Go invest in Insight and Persuasion, maybe throw in some old contacts. Think of maybe going the Temple Prostitute route to avoid disease/pregnancy, and explain why so many higher ranking people are sleeping with the same person.

Or if they want creative with spells, I'd probably allow some leeway as long as it doesn't violate the spell as written (or make non-combat cantrips, such as a spell to make some grease that will also get past rusty doorways and locks), or become too powerful. I think after a while, people are going to understand what is going on if you have Grease, Hold Person, Enlarge Person, Mending, etc. on your spell list.

Or maybe just let them have a follower, especially if the group needs a healer or something. I think after the third time the wizard disappears with the healer, the players really ought to understand what is happening.

[Corneel]

It should be OK, as long as the everyone around the table agrees and spells are cast with a French or Russian accent (which are the two sexiest accents in the world).

[Honest Tiefling]

It should be OK, as long as the everyone around the table agrees and spells are cast with a French or Russian accent (which are the two sexiest accents in the world).

Yeah, recent polls might disagree with you on that one. Yes, I know not the most reliable, but it is about sexy accents. You tell me a reputable source.

Clearly, all sexy accents must be blended together to make for a unique roleplaying experience. They'll be too annoyed to be creepy in any way!

[ross]

Wrong. In AD&D, the Cleric's ability to get any spells is contingent upon them following precepts of their faith, and for higher level spells, explicitly requires liason with their god's servant or the god itself. If, for example, you are a follower of a sex god and do not observe the sexual rituals of your faith, that is grounds for you not getting the spells you want.

For Warlocks, the point again is not what they do with their powers after getting them, it's how they got their powers to begin with. In-universe, it makes a world of difference if you can gain magic by cavorting with demons/faeries/Yog-Sothoth, versus if you can't.

So not only is yout statement missing the point, I have to conclude you have not actually read AD&D rules all that closely.

Nope, long rest :)

[Rhedyn]

Combat sexual spells strike me as far too silly and I tend to lean more on the goofy side of D&D/RPGs.

Now if your setting is oglaf, then proceed.

Otherwise I would think sexual spells would be used for things like sex. Boar's endurance, curse of quickness, Everytime you do it you change gender, literal fireworks in the bedroom, heightened sensitivity, birth control, ect.

[King of Nowhere]

for the purpose of magic seduction vs magic rape, my campaign world uses a simple guideline: anything that affects you is an enhancer to seduction, and it is ok. Anything that affects the other person is mind rape, which (at least in most nations) is considered definitely worse than rape, and often worse than murder (murder can be undone with a spell; the psycological damage of having your mind intruded and used cannot). Mind reading is an infringment of privacy, but since it doesn't change anything in the other person, is a lesser crime.

So, casting eagle's splendor on you is perfectly fine, and not really different in concept from wearing expensive clothes or having skill ranks in make-up artist.
Casting mind read on your date to figure out the best way to approach her will get you a fine and you will be recorded for committing crimes with magic. If it's your first infraction, however, you generally won't get any more serious consequence.
Casting charme on your date will get you years or decades of prison, depending on exactly what the spell did and how you abused your power.

that goes for regular nations, where laws are made to protect the people. At least some of the evil nations rule that an important person is absolutely fine using mind effects on a nobody.

My campaign world has amulets of sexual power that enhance endurance, sensation, performance and reload time, but they are only shown on rich people as a joke or bit of characterization. They are fairly rare, because they must be crafted by a spellcaster with a strong libido to be effective; the hornier the mage, the strongest the amulet. So those wizards who have the interest in making one generally lack the focus to become powerul enough to craft items, and viceversa. They are pendants shaped like the playboy logo.

That's pretty much all I have about sexual magic.

As for how to use it, I am generally direct, but I don't linger with descriptions. As in "you successfully infiltrated the manor of this guy for the purpose of confronting him when he's without protective gear. You sneak invisibly into his bedroom, and find him on his bed having sex with three concubines. He has an amulet of sexual power; you can realize he'd be pretty skilled even without it, and he's also definitely goood-looking. The concubines seem to be actually enjoyng themselves. Of course he removed his armor and boots, but he's still wearing his rings and the belt of giant strenght. His scabbarded sword lies somewhere amid the bed sheets, so no way of getting it away from him without being discovered."
here sex was part of the scene, but also of the characterization; the guy was a faithful of hextor, but he wasn't really evil, he was just raised to pray hextor and never knew another way of life. the fact that he kept concubines but tried to treat them like actual partners rather than like trash was a hint of that. The fact that he had no interest in the government but spent all his time exercicing with the sword or having sex was another
Or "you gathered information about this villain. You discover .... he had a wife; what he liked more about her, besides her good looks, was her low resistance to enchantment spells. He dumped her when she got older. The poor woman got charmed/dominated so often that she's become little more than a vegetable, personality-wise"
this was just a random bit of characterization on a villain. Yes, this was a genuinely despicable guy.